Incarnate vs Binder

[hivedragon]

The Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum) or The Binder (Tome of Magic)
Which is better?

[Coidzor]

They do different things, so it mostly depends on what you wanna do with them.

[CharityB]

I find Binders mechanically easier to understand at first (though Incarnum isn't hard either) but I agree with the above -- they really are too different to generically say that one is "better" at everything.

[subject42]

From my experience, the Binder is easier to run as a player and Incarnum mostly serves to infuriate your DM.

Based on this, Incarnum is obviously better.

[Big Fau]

Both classes have aspects of the "Jack of All Trades" mindset, right?


Which one is better is based on which one you are more familiar with from an optimization standpoint. However, Binders have more support than Meldshapers in general (marginally though).

[Urpriest]

Binders are more powerful, even without web enhancement content. Incarnates are better at skillmonkeying though, and arguably make better theurges.

[Flickerdart]

Binders are a lot easier to play. Incarnates, on the other hand, can be optimized really well, so if someone knows how to use one, it's a bit of a toss-up.

[Psyren]

Binder pros:
-Easier system (no need to worry about chakras or essentia etc.)
-No alignment restrictions
-Neither vestiges nor their abilities can be dispelled or countered, even if they mimic spells/powers
-Vestige abilities never provoke
-Vestige abilities bypass SR/magic immunity
-Vestiges don't block magic item slots, and can even be easily combined with other soulmelds if you take the feats.


Binder cons:
- Cooldowns
- EBL matters much more than MSL, so Binder tends to be more "all-or-nothing."
- Incarnates have more powerful abilities at early levels (acid spit, flight, telepathy, immunities) and at late levels without web content (gate).
- Incarnates have more HP (Con-based + Vitality belt)
- Influences are annoying at best, and ignoring them repeatedly results in large penalties to everything you do.
- The fluff has more negative stigma, especially if you show your signs.
- Special requirements mean either more annoyances or a feat tax

[Chronos]

The biggest difference between them is in their scaling. Low-level incarnates are incredibly powerful: They're one of only four or five classes that doesn't suck at first level. A first-level incarnate, making build choices that will make sense for a real character, can easily deal 3d6 damage with a 30' ranged touch attack every round, all day, and still have room for some other nifty trick to go along with it. On the other hand, though, you gain very little by advancing as an incarnate, and most of what you do get, you could pick up via feats if you really wanted. All of the Incarnate's soulmelds are available right from level 1; all that you gain as you level is chakra binds, more essentia, and more essentia capacity (and the essentia capacity actually depends on total character level, not class level).

Binders, on the other hand, scale much better with level: As you gain levels, you gain access to more powerful vestiges, and also gain the ability to bind more vestiges at once. So you suck at level 1, as you should (I maintain that all characters are supposed to suck at level 1-- It's a feature, not a bug), but you can still contribute meaningfully at high levels.

[Psyren]

All of the Incarnate's soulmelds are available right from level 1; all that you gain as you level is chakra binds, more essentia, and more essentia capacity (and the essentia capacity actually depends on total character level, not class level).

While this is true, do note that Incarnate levels increase your essentia capacity beyond what normal levels will give you. Incarnate is also the only way (besides Necrocarnate) to unlock your Soul chakra pre-epic.

And more essentia is a very good thing. Unless you're a Necrocarnate that goes around boiling anthills, you're very unlikely to have enough of the stuff to fill all your soulmelds; the less you need to move it around, the less likely you are to be caught with your pants down, and the more uses you'll have for your swift.

[Tvtyrant]

Most Incarnate builds that I know of use a lot of their melds for defense, and then use the spectacles to UMD devices and pretend to be a Wandificer.

[HandofCrom]

The main advantages to the binder are, in order:

1. They are cool.
2. They are rad.
3. They are friggin' sweet.
4. They are very versatile thanks to the different vestiges.

Their related prestige classes are nifty, too. Anima mage is glorious and easy to enter.

[1of3]

Unlike everyone else - as it seems - I find Incarnates more straight forward. A soulmeld usually does one thing. Some soulmelds do another thing with essentia instead of improving their basic trick, but that's it. A vestige always does a handfull of things and it's hard to guess from their names what gimmick is part of what vestige. For example, it's plausible that water breathing is part of Kraken Mantle, but how would anyone guess that it's granted by Focalur?

[sonofzeal]

Unlike everyone else - as it seems - I find Incarnates more straight forward. A soulmeld usually does one thing. Some soulmelds do another thing with essentia instead of improving their basic trick, but that's it. A vestige always does a handfull of things and it's hard to guess from their names what gimmick is part of what vestige. For example, it's plausible that water breathing is part of Kraken Mantle, but how would anyone guess that it's granted by Focalur?
OTOH, take a sample Incarnate and a sample Binder at, say, lvl 5. how many soulmelds does the Incarnate have to choose between, compared to vestiges for the Binder? And in the middle of the day, how many soulmelds does the Incarnate have shaped at any one time, compared to how many vestiges the Binder has bound?

While vestiges are individually more complicated than soulmelds, I think that's only part of the picture.

[Lans]

Incarnates are the better class until binders get their second bind IMHO.

[Psyren]

Unlike everyone else - as it seems - I find Incarnates more straight forward. A soulmeld usually does one thing. Some soulmelds do another thing with essentia instead of improving their basic trick, but that's it. A vestige always does a handfull of things and it's hard to guess from their names what gimmick is part of what vestige. For example, it's plausible that water breathing is part of Kraken Mantle, but how would anyone guess that it's granted by Focalur?

An individual soulmeld is more straightforward than an individual vestige, it's true. But taken in the aggregate, you'll easily have twice to three times as many melds shaped as binders have vestiges bound. And you're hit with all this choice even at first level.

Binders are much more straightforward. They play almost like a 4e class - hit your "encounter powers" (i.e. the 5-round cooldown stuff) then rotate your at-wills.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, I basically agree with the consensus that both are great in different ways, with the Incarnate being more powerful at levels 1-9 and the Binder being more powerful at levels 10+. But overall, I would say that the overall "power economy" on each class is fairly similar, and remarkably balanced.

[Manateee]

Binders have a weird comparative power drop between levels 4 and 7, where I've spent the most time playing.

That's the gap between the point where weapon damage alone is enough to be scary during their effect cooldowns and level 8, when they get to start stacking binds and dropping multiple cooldown powers per fight. Once the Binder gets its second bind, things get a bit less dicey.

EDIT:
Bad indexing is basically an MO of both systems, so it's probably not the best case to be made either way. :p

[Chronos]

I will grant that the names of vestiges are a bit annoying, in that they don't give you any clue as to what abilities it grants (well, very little clue, at least-- Seasoned players might remember who Acercerak was, for instance). On the other hand, they add flavor: Most of those vestiges, and at least a rough sketch of what they do, date back to medieval books on spirits that could be bound.

[Person_Man]

Binders have a weird comparative power drop between levels 4 and 7, where I've spent the most time playing.

That's the gap between the point where weapon damage alone is enough to be scary during their effect cooldowns and level 8, when they get to start stacking binds and dropping multiple cooldown powers per fight. Once the Binder gets its second bind, things get a bit less dicey.

That's true, but only if you don't have access to the online vestiges and Dragon Magazine. Take a look at:

Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement): Bardic Knowledge, +4 Bluff/Diplo/Intim, Astaroth's Breath (Nauseated/Sicked breath, w/ cooldown), Suggestion (w/ cooldown), and weird Item Creation Feat ability. Works particularly well if you're a Dragonborn (with a breath weapon option) with the Entangling Exhalation feat.

Kas (Dragon Mag 341): Bluff bonus, Longsword, bastard sword, and short sword proficiency, when you hit an enemy with a critical hit they must Save or be permanently Blinded (Will negates), and you gain the ability to crit Undead.

Also, don't underestimate Tenebrous. Flicker is a game changer - it's a Standard Action to activate and can only be used limited times per day, but then gives you Immediate Action movement once per round for Binder level rounds. Plus Deeper Darkness, the ability to see in magical darkness, a little extra Cold damage, and Turn/Rebuke Undead (great for certain Domain/Divine feats), is fairly useful at any level.

[Bonzai]

Incarnates are the better class until binders get their second bind IMHO.

Seconded. Though the Incarnates are better skill monkeys and are more flexible, Binders have a bit more raw power towards the end. I like both classes.