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Vemynal
2012-02-15, 09:25 PM
Hey everyone, I'm trying to figure out all the classes and become more familiar with the pathfinder system.

Having done a lot of reading up on the different tiers, etc, of the different classes and archetypes I've come to a solid self opinion for each of the classes except for the Paladin and the Anti-Paladin.


I couldn't find the tier of the Anti-Paladin listed *anywhere*. I suspect it is tier 4 since the class can damage and "do it well", especially after exchanging out all the healing/buffing abilities of a paladin for damage/debuffing abilities. But I want to hear what each of you think.


For the Paladin, I never really read anything about what class features, etc, cause the paladin to be Tier 3, 4 or 5 (the common tiers I saw the Paladin listed at)

so please share you opinions or thoughts; but please tell me *why* =)

Coidzor
2012-02-15, 09:27 PM
Well, there was a discussion thread touching on this that started dying about... I'd say a week and a half ago. Someone might be able to russle that whole thread up for you.

Touched on both monks and paladins, though, like all things monk, got derailed into Monkday.

Vemynal
2012-02-15, 09:45 PM
The discussions of the paladin's archetypes in those threads were useful but it doesn't give me an idea of the general paladin overall.

For example, you yourself mentioned that if you can get 3 planar allies running around a paladin can get access to 8th level spells towards level 18. I'd definitely categorize this as a high tier 3 or low tier 2 class archetype if that postulation was correct.

But there are other archetypes that would make the paladin fall down to a low to mid tier 5.

So what do you think the paladin's tier should be then when you consider the class and equal optimization between all classes? (let's say moderate optimization)


And I still have no idea where the blackguard Anti-Paladin falls in all of this =/

Novawurmson
2012-02-15, 09:52 PM
Tier 4. Can do what it specializes in well (generally damage for both Paladins and Antipaladins), as well as bring minor benefits (buffs for Paladins, debuffs for Antipaladins). They can be somewhat useful in other in things outside their specialty.

For instance, the Antipaladin gets Bluff, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, and Stealth as class skills all of which could help with situations that are not optimally solved by fighting (sneaking past enemy guards instead of engaging them, blackmailing the mayor into letting your ally out of prison, etc.) He can also heal undead allies with his Touch of Corruption, or drop serious debuffs on opponents with his Cruelties (Stunned, Exhausted, Staggered, etc.).

deuxhero
2012-02-15, 10:27 PM
Eyeballin it says...

High tier 4 without archetypes. It does a lot of things competently (Spells are good support, it can tank, but has nothing forcing it to be attacking, Lay on Hands+Mercy+CLW wands is good out of combat healing) now that it has had anger management and bases all secondary abilities on charisma and can dump wis, but fails to shine at anything.

Holy Gun is likely enough to bumb you up to tier 3 as your smite won't run dry and deeds grant some versatility, Sacred Servant is 2.

Vemynal
2012-02-16, 02:02 AM
How is Holy Gun a tier 3?

For Sacred Servant, the Summon Planar Ally can net 4th level spells and Greater Planar Ally can net 8th level spells. Although how it reads to me seems to say that the abilities replace each other as the paladin levels.

But does Sacred Servant really able to bump a paladin up to tier 2? With the GM controlling the wheel on this ability and whether or not it'll be effective I feel like there are some restrictions keeping it at a solid tier 3.

Thoughts/disagreements?

Bhaakon
2012-02-16, 02:38 AM
Holy Gun is likely enough to bumb you up to tier 3 as your smite won't run dry and deeds grant some versatility, Sacred Servant is 2.

A straight Holy Gun will always have to spend grit for its smiting shot. Signature deed requires 11 levels of gunslinger, and it's a feat, not a deed, so the Holy Grit class feature doesn't get around that prereq.

Arutema
2012-02-16, 03:50 AM
A straight Holy Gun will always have to spend grit for its smiting shot. Signature deed requires 11 levels of gunslinger, and it's a feat, not a deed, so the Holy Grit class feature doesn't get around that prereq.

Except you regain grit every time you down an enemy with your gun, whereas regular old smite evil has a flat number of uses per day.

balistafreak
2012-02-16, 05:06 AM
Except you regain grit every time you down an enemy with your gun, whereas regular old smite evil has a flat number of uses per day.

Except except you spend grit per shot, which means that practically you get far fewer attacks in with smite bonuses than you do with regular old smite evil, which pumps all your attacks for the rest of a combat against a single target.

And also, when you get haste/Rapid Shot, guess what? You can't smite profitably, because smiting shot is a standard action, not an attack action or an attack-buff or whatever. It is its own standard action, And That's Terrible. As a ranged character, you want to be facerolling full-attacks as often as possible.

You want to be a Paladin with a gun, dip one level of Gunslinger. Holy Gun is just terrible, unfortunately.

Mystify
2012-02-16, 05:53 AM
Paladins are very, very good at killing evil things. It is their niche, and they succeed at it. That means they are at least a tier 4. They are generally competent in other cases, and have skills and spells to help them out. They can be really good diplomats and party faces, due to a combination of charisma and spells. I can't claim anything that would bump them to tier 3 outside of the aforementioned archetypes. Their spell list isn't that good, and they don't get enough of it to be a tier 3. Their melee options aren't particularly expansive.

I have to say they are a clear tier 4.

I haven't done anything with antipaladin.

Engine
2012-02-16, 08:48 AM
But does Sacred Servant really able to bump a paladin up to tier 2?
Thoughts/disagreements?

I'm truly unsure that Sacred Servant could be Tier 2.
An Oracle could cast Greater Planar Ally and I think is Tier 2 like the old Favored Soul, and by the way is the divine version of the Sorcerer, which is Tier 2. But she has 9 levels of spells too. That would mean that a single spell is worth more than all the Oracle's spellcasting.

Mystify
2012-02-16, 09:30 AM
I'm truly unsure that Sacred Servant could be Tier 2.
An Oracle could cast Greater Planar Ally and I think is Tier 2 like the old Favored Soul, and by the way is the divine version of the Sorcerer, which is Tier 2. But she has 9 levels of spells too. That would mean that a single spell is worth more than all the Oracle's spellcasting.

Its that the minion you get has full spellcasting of its own, so in effect it gives you tier 2 spellcasting on a cohort(or something to that effect)

Psyren
2012-02-16, 09:44 AM
Its that the minion you get has full spellcasting of its own, so in effect it gives you tier 2 spellcasting on a cohort(or something to that effect)

Yes, but several levels behind (for most of the game, anyway) and with alignment restrictions. So I'd still say T3. You don't get a spellcaster option until level 12, and at that time, the most powerful one you can get is a 9th-level caster.

However, at 16th-level when you get the planetar, at that point you effectively have a T1 caster at your beck and call. It's the Truenamer phenomenon all over again.

CTrees
2012-02-16, 09:52 AM
I agree with Psyren. One high powered ability at or very near level twenty isn't enough to bump a class a tier. One could say "archetype is T3 until level 18, then goes to T2," but that's far more complexity than is normally included.

However, as splat support increases, and we keep getting more bestiaries? It's possible the archetype will move to T2 properly.

EDIT: The Antipaladin, potentially gaining a Glabrezu minion at high level, is another interesting example of this same issue. Wish as an SLA 1/month, with the 1/day 20% chance to summon another glabrezu means, if different demons are summoned each time, a high level antipaladin can get a free wish roughly once every four days, on average. Probably not enough to justify a teir bump, but it is a lovely, abusable ability.

Also interesting is that PF specifies a summoned creature will not use SLAs with expensive material components, but the rules for SLAs specify that they don't have material components, making that rule... probably just bad editing, actually.

Gullintanni
2012-02-16, 10:00 AM
Yes, but several levels behind (for most of the game, anyway) and with alignment restrictions. So I'd still say T3. You don't get a spellcaster option until level 12, and at that time, the most powerful one you can get is a 9th-level caster.

However, at 16th-level when you get the planetar, at that point you effectively have a T1 caster at your beck and call. It's the Truenamer phenomenon all over again.

Basically this. You're high Tier 3 most of the game, and Tier 2 at level 16. Tier 2 because even though you're importing a T1 caster, you never see 9ths and your cohort will never again progress, limiting the degree of brokenness you can get out of your character as the game progresses.

To the poster above who suggested that Oracle does this just as well, that's not entirely true. The Oracle has to pay their Planar Ally, especially for long term service, the Paladin does not. The Paladin effectively gains a lifetime servant with 16th level Cleric casting for zero cost.

PF's Vanilla Paladin is a solid Tier 4.

Mystify
2012-02-16, 01:10 PM
I agree with Psyren. One high powered ability at or very near level twenty isn't enough to bump a class a tier. One could say "archetype is T3 until level 18, then goes to T2," but that's far more complexity than is normally included.

However, as splat support increases, and we keep getting more bestiaries? It's possible the archetype will move to T2 properly.

EDIT: The Antipaladin, potentially gaining a Glabrezu minion at high level, is another interesting example of this same issue. Wish as an SLA 1/month, with the 1/day 20% chance to summon another glabrezu means, if different demons are summoned each time, a high level antipaladin can get a free wish roughly once every four days, on average. Probably not enough to justify a teir bump, but it is a lovely, abusable ability.

Also interesting is that PF specifies a summoned creature will not use SLAs with expensive material components, but the rules for SLAs specify that they don't have material components, making that rule... probably just bad editing, actually.
3.5 has a similar rule, only it includes experience. I'm pretty certain it means abilities that normally cost experience, whether or not the creature actually has to pay it, but people go by the strict RAW that it deosn't pay the experience cost, hence its not there, so they can get their infinite wish loops.

tyckspoon
2012-02-16, 01:29 PM
3.5 has a similar rule, only it includes experience. I'm pretty certain it means abilities that normally cost experience, whether or not the creature actually has to pay it, but people go by the strict RAW that it deosn't pay the experience cost, hence its not there, so they can get their infinite wish loops.

Actually, they usually point out, correctly, that the rule applies to a Summoned creature. Which is a defined and separate game term from a Called creature, such as those brought to the summoner's plane by a Planar Binding or Planar Ally spell. (The Summon Mirror Mephit and have it Simulacrum for you, tho.. that one is indefensible and I'm not sure why people keep trying to suggest it.)

Vemynal
2012-02-16, 02:17 PM
ok; problem. The HD 17 CR 16 Angel that you can summon with the Greater Planer Ally spell is actually a *Neutral Good* creature.

Aren't there limitation to what a paladin can summon to just a Lawful Good or some subset like that? Can't a Paladin only have followers who are Lawful Good or else he loses all class abilities?

Can you really still use this to summon Planter Angel now? The creature that gives 8th level spells?


And do you think that the same Archetype is ok to allow a Anti-Paladin to use? There are a lot more variations of evil than there are of good.

Coidzor
2012-02-16, 02:45 PM
Aren't there limitation to what a paladin can summon to just a Lawful Good or some subset like that? Can't a Paladin only have followers who are Lawful Good or else he loses all class abilities?

Not to my knowledge. Any houserule along those lines is needlessly and baselessly hostile against Paladins. You can read the ability for yourself to double check though, I suppose, though I'd like to see the relevant passage quoted and highlighted as I rather doubt I managed to miss something like that.

CTrees
2012-02-16, 02:45 PM
ok; problem. The HD 17 CR 16 Angel that you can summon with the Greater Planer Ally spell is actually a *Neutral Good* creature.

Aren't there limitation to what a paladin can summon to just a Lawful Good or some subset like that? Can't a Paladin only have followers who are Lawful Good or else he loses all class abilities?

Can you really still use this to summon Planter Angel now? The creature that gives 8th level spells?

Actually, the wordings are interesting:


At 8th level, a sacred servant can call upon her deity for aid, in the form of a powerful servant. This allows the sacred servant to cast lesser planar ally once per week as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant (for reasonable tasks). At 12th level, this improves to planar ally and at 16th level, this improves to greater planar ally. The sacred servant’s caster level for this effect is equal to her paladin level.


By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an outsider [...] of the deity's choice. [...]If you know an individual creature's name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)

(the Planar Binding spells have a line about what happens if you serve no particular deity, but the Sacred Servant ability does assume service to one, making this irrelevant.)

From this, there is no inherent alignment restriction on what the paladin may call, but the deity gets to choose what is sent, not the paladin. A specific individual may be called, but that's not a guarantee it will come (and there's no hint on mechanics - presumably, this is ALSO the choice of the deity). Now, it only makes sense if you at least get to tell your deity what sort of creature you'd like, but... if you've done some questionable things lately, your deity could conceivably send a lantern archon when you requested a planetar (though the DM may need to dodge a core rulebook, in that case). Alternatively, if the paladin worshipped, say, some sea god? A water elemental could conceivably be called, as that is something a water-based god could, logically, send. Straight up demon calling seems unlikely, but the lack of alignment restrictions bring up some other, interesting posibilities.

mikau013
2012-02-16, 02:45 PM
Well seeing as you can only cast it once a week, it is hardly better than a scroll imo.

tyckspoon
2012-02-16, 02:49 PM
Aren't there limitation to what a paladin can summon to just a Lawful Good or some subset like that? Can't a Paladin only have followers who are Lawful Good or else he loses all class abilities?


Paladins don't usually *have* summons, so it generally doesn't come up. Interesting question, tho; Paladins are required to only accept Lawful Good 'henchmen, cohorts, and followers', but they may associate with and adventure with 'allies' of any good and most well-behaved neutrals. And it's not really clear-cut which category a Planar Ally should go to.

That's what makes it hard to accurately assess the Sacred Servant, really- so much of the Planar Ally spell is just thrown to the DM's hands to decide. A Planetar *is* a valid creature to get in response to a Greater Planar Ally spell.. but so is a trio of Lantern Archons, and there's no way to to guarantee, in character, which one you get.

Engine
2012-02-16, 02:54 PM
To the poster above who suggested that Oracle does this just as well, that's not entirely true. The Oracle has to pay their Planar Ally, especially for long term service, the Paladin does not. The Paladin effectively gains a lifetime servant with 16th level Cleric casting for zero cost.

PF's Vanilla Paladin is a solid Tier 4.

That's not entirely true. From PFSRD:



Call Celestial Ally (Sp)

At 8th level, a sacred servant can call upon her deity for aid, in the form of a powerful servant. This allows the sacred servant to cast lesser planar ally once per week as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant (for reasonable tasks). At 12th level, this improves to planar ally and at 16th level, this improves to greater planar ally. The sacred servant’s caster level for this effect is equal to her paladin level.

You do not have to pay the servant for reasonable task, so it's open to interpretation what that could mean in an actual game.
Anyway, let's assume that the Paladin doesn't have to pay the servant, never. And let's assume that this feature bump the Paladin to Tier 2.

But it's a high level feature, so the Paladin raise to Tier 2 just when she could use it. The same could be true for the Oracle, or the Sorcerer (with Planar Binding). When they could use this kind of spell to call a spellcasting creature they should, logically, raise to Tier 1.

I'm still unsure that just this feature could bump the Paladin to Tier 2. It's a powerful feature, nonetheless. But other classes could use Planar Ally, even with the payment those classes should be more powerful than the Paladin because they have full spellcasting of their own.

CTrees
2012-02-16, 02:54 PM
Well seeing as you can only cast it once a week, it is hardly better than a scroll imo.

Relevant text: "as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant (for reasonable tasks)." The spell already adresses tasks taking up to one day per caster level (and the Sacred Servant doesn't gain this ability until eighth level), so the presumption is "aid me in my righteous adventures for the next week" is a "reasonable task." At which point, you're getting a prepared caster as a cohort, which is pretty nice.

Also, as this is a use of an SLA, I'm pretty sure it won't cause a Leadership penalty. So there's that.

mikau013
2012-02-16, 03:01 PM
Relevant text: "as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant (for reasonable tasks)." The spell already adresses tasks taking up to one day per caster level (and the Sacred Servant doesn't gain this ability until eighth level), so the presumption is "aid me in my righteous adventures for the next week" is a "reasonable task." At which point, you're getting a prepared caster as a cohort, which is pretty nice.

Also, as this is a use of an SLA, I'm pretty sure it won't cause a Leadership penalty. So there's that.


This payment can take a variety of forms, (...) to some other action on your part that matches the creature's alignment and goals.

So you just ask it for a quest and since it shares your interests it'll just mean you get a next adventure. So no need to pay it anyway :smalltongue:

And the problem is, reasonable task is undefined thus different dms have different opinions what is reasonable or not

Psyren
2012-02-16, 03:09 PM
Well seeing as you can only cast it once a week, it is hardly better than a scroll imo.

You do realize the spell, at the time you get it, can already last longer than a week right? :smallconfused:

legomaster00156
2012-02-16, 03:51 PM
EDIT: The Antipaladin, potentially gaining a Glabrezu minion at high level, is another interesting example of this same issue. Wish as an SLA 1/month, with the 1/day 20% chance to summon another glabrezu means, if different demons are summoned each time, a high level antipaladin can get a free wish roughly once every four days, on average. Probably not enough to justify a teir bump, but it is a lovely, abusable ability.

Also interesting is that PF specifies a summoned creature will not use SLAs with expensive material components, but the rules for SLAs specify that they don't have material components, making that rule... probably just bad editing, actually.
Actually,a summoned creature may not itself summon others.

mikau013
2012-02-16, 04:07 PM
Actually,a summoned creature may not itself summon others.

But can they summon themselves? :smalltongue:

Vemynal
2012-02-16, 04:49 PM
Actually,a summoned creature may not itself summon others.

Summoned and Called are two different things.

On that note though, the name of the spell is "Summon Planer Ally" so does this make it a Summon spell or a Called spell? It seems like everyone talks as though the creature is Called.


As for the Sacred Servant; with a compliant DM who lets you summon w/e the hell you want whenever you want and abuse this ability I could see it as making a Paladin tier 2 (especially for the Anti-Paladin).

But if you have a DM who absolutely refuses to work with the player and shuts down anything the player ever asks for than the ability itself is useless and the paladin would remain a tier 4.

Thus, I'm going to conclude, personally, that the ability makes the paladin a tier 3 but with variation depending on the DM.


also the ability itself sounds like the being summoned/called by the paladin is neither a henchman or a follower. But it could be considered a "Cohort". Which would require Lawful Good.

Or he could be an "Ally" but this usually seems to be meant for other PCs.

The spell is called "Summon Planer Ally" so it really comes down to this:
Does the ability Summon the creature or Call the creature? If it Summons the creature its an "Ally" and can be any "non-Evil". If the creature is "Called" than its a Cohort and must be Lawful Good.
***I'm totally basing this just off the name of the spell, deciding that the spell, as its named, would give evidence to the RAI. Unless RAW says its a Called effect, in which case the name has *no* impact on the ability.

olentu
2012-02-16, 05:05 PM
Summoned and Called are two different things.

On that note though, the name of the spell is "Summon Planer Ally" so does this make it a Summon spell or a Called spell? It seems like everyone talks as though the creature is Called.


As for the Sacred Servant; with a compliant DM who lets you summon w/e the hell you want whenever you want and abuse this ability I could see it as making a Paladin tier 2 (especially for the Anti-Paladin).

But if you have a DM who absolutely refuses to work with the player and shuts down anything the player ever asks for than the ability itself is useless and the paladin would remain a tier 4.

Thus, I'm going to conclude, personally, that the ability makes the paladin a tier 3 but with variation depending on the DM.


also the ability itself sounds like the being summoned/called by the paladin is neither a henchman or a follower. But it could be considered a "Cohort". Which would require Lawful Good.

Or he could be an "Ally" but this usually seems to be meant for other PCs.

The spell is called "Summon Planer Ally" so it really comes down to this:
Does the ability Summon the creature or Call the creature? If it Summons the creature its an "Ally" and can be any "non-Evil". If the creature is "Called" than its a Cohort and must be Lawful Good.
***I'm totally basing this just off the name of the spell, deciding that the spell, as its named, would give evidence to the RAI. Unless RAW says its a Called effect, in which case the name has *no* impact on the ability.

The spell is actually just planar ally I believe.

tyckspoon
2012-02-16, 05:21 PM
On reflection, my opinion is the Planar Ally is closest to, well, an ally- it's a free-willed being that has agreed to help you because it agrees with your goals, that is not compelled to do so, and that you are not paying for the service. Generally, that describes the rest of the party as well as random NPC friends the Paladin may make that are not compelled to be LG. This is as compared to a follower, which is a low-level creature that you get from the Leadership feat, a cohort, being a higher powered creature from said feat (both have a mechanical compulsion to be helpful to you, because the feat says they are), and a henchman, which I have always understood to be somebody you are paying for their services.

Psyren
2012-02-16, 05:30 PM
On reflection, my opinion is the Planar Ally is closest to, well, an ally- it's a free-willed being that has agreed to help you because it agrees with your goals, that is not compelled to do so, and that you are not paying for the service. Generally, that describes the rest of the party as well as random NPC friends the Paladin may make that are not compelled to be LG. This is as compared to a follower, which is a low-level creature that you get from the Leadership feat, a cohort, being a higher powered creature from said feat (both have a mechanical compulsion to be helpful to you, because the feat says they are), and a henchman, which I have always understood to be somebody you are paying for their services.

Well, it's not quite as chummy as all that - you normally have to pay for a Planar Ally's help too, it's just that Sacred Servant pallys get the fee waived.

Coidzor
2012-02-16, 05:31 PM
The line between henchman and hireling always seems a bit blurred as to whether they're the same thing, if henchmen are basically more-free-willed NPC allies that can level up, if henchmen are just higher level hirelings such that they're notable enough to consider in the relative power of the party's retinue, etc.

CTrees
2012-02-16, 06:16 PM
The Sacred Servant ability is called "call planar ally." It allows the casting of the Planar Ally line of spells, which all have the (calling) descriptor. It is absolutely a calling spell, not summoning.

However, I was wrong about antipaladin wish abuse- that's definitely summoning.

Vemynal
2012-02-16, 06:18 PM
The above person was correct and I feel really dumb now lol.

Its "Planer Ally" with no mention of the word "summoning".

In fact I just checked it out and its a "Conjuration (calling)" spell.

So the creature is, in fact, Called and not summoned.


Normally this individual would be paid for their services but paladin gets it for free. So long as the task is reasonable.

The bolded part confirms the the creature is not obligated to serve the paladin. So its not in fact a follower or cohort.

Since we can rule out cohort and follower, I feel we can rule out "henchmen" since the Planer Ally a paladin summons is not under the paladin's employ.

And hell, the spell's name even refers to the creature as an Ally.

With this, I'm going to say Paladin tier 4, Sacred Servant is tier 3 and that the creature being called can be of any "non-Evil" alignment so long as the paladin does not bring the creature under his employ (a transaction of material goods or a bargaining of "I will do this for you, if you do this for me").

Thoughts?

Curious
2012-02-16, 06:21 PM
The above person was correct and I feel really dumb now lol.

Its "Planer Ally" with no mention of the word "summoning".

In fact I just checked it out and its a "Conjuration (calling)" spell.

So the creature is, in fact, Called and not summoned.


Normally this individual would be paid for their services but paladin gets it for free. So long as the task is reasonable.

The bolded part confirms the the creature is not obligated to serve the paladin. So its not in fact a follower or cohort.

Since we can rule out cohort and follower, I feel we can rule out "henchmen" since the Planer Ally a paladin summons is not under the paladin's employ.

And hell, the spell's name even refers to the creature as an Ally.

With this, I'm going to say Paladin tier 4, Sacred Servant is tier 3 and that the creature being called can be of any "non-Evil" alignment so long as the paladin does not bring the creature under his employ (a transaction of material goods or a bargaining of "I will do this for you, if you do this for me").

Thoughts?

Technically, since there is no restriction on what deities a Paladin can worship, nor on what Outsiders can be summoned, you can call Devils and Daemons and such. There is actually some fluff backing for this in Golarion, with Paladin worshippers of Asmodeus and Hellknights and such.

CTrees
2012-02-16, 06:39 PM
Technically, since there is no restriction on what deities a Paladin can worship, nor on what Outsiders can be summoned, you can call Devils and Daemons and such. There is actually some fluff backing for this in Golarion, with Paladin worshippers of Asmodeus and Hellknights and such.

Exactly. Normally I'd go with "worshipping an evil god is an evil act, thus naughty for a pally," but PF actually does have some weird, in-universe precedent. And actually, the "of the deity's choice" clause of Planar Ally could mean that calling a demon might not even be an act requiring atonement.

Pathfinder is weird sometimes.

Vemynal
2012-02-16, 09:07 PM
The precedent was apparently retconned (after doing some research).
That said, you could totally have a Lawful Good paladin worship Asmodeus if he thought the god was Lawful Good. But the moment a Devil shows up from the Planer Ally spell (or some evil being) the paladin is going to be forced to attempt to kill it. Another fact is that even with the original "paladin of Asmodeus" people were saying its a great way to fall as you *have* to either change gods or break your code later on.


On that note; here is a list of spells/SLA's that a Sacred Servant has access to if he is Lawful Good (I'm only including creatures listed on the Planer Ally page so this may not be comprehensive).

Aid
Align weapon
Banishment
Bear’s endurance
Blade barrier
Bless
Break enchantment
Bull's strength
Chain lightning
Charm monster
Charm person
Command
Consecrate
Continual flame
Create food and water
Create wine
Cure light wounds
Cure moderate wounds
Cure serious wounds
Dancing lights
Darkness
Daylight
Daze
Death ward
Detect chaos
Detect evil
Detect good
Detect law
Discern Lies
Detect magic
Detect snares and pits
Detect thoughts
Disguise self
Dismissal
Dispel evil
Dispel magic
Disrupt undead
Divine favor
Divine power
Eagle's splendor
Earthquake
Endure elements
Ethereal jaunt
Fire storm
Flame strike
Freedom of movement
Gaseous form
Globe of invulnerability
Greater dispel magic
Greater restoration
Greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only)
Greater teleport (within its territory*)
Guidance
Hallucinatory terrain
Heal
Hold monster
Hold person
Holy aura
Holy word
Holy smite
Identify
Invisibility
Invisibility purge
Knock
Lesser restoration
Light
Lullaby
Mage armor
Mage hand
Magic Circle against Evil
Magic Vestment
Major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent)
Mass charm monster
Mass cure light wounds
Mass cure moderate wounds
Mass cure serious wounds
Message
Neutralize poison
Obscuring mist
Owl's wisdom
Persistent image
Plane shift
Power word: stun
Prismatic spray
Protection from chaos
Protection from energy
Protection from evil
Purify food and drink
Raise dead
Ray of frost
Read magic
Regenerate
Remove curse
Remove disease
Remove fear
Resistance
Restoration
Righteous might
Sanctuary
Scorching ray
Searing light
See invisibility
Shield of faith
Silence
Sleep
Sound burst
Speak with animals
Speak with plants
Spell immunity
Stabilize
Suggestion
Summon monster IV, III
True seeing
True strike
Virtue
Wall of force
Waves of exhaustion
Waves of fatigue
Wind walk
Wind wall

edit - I was going to do "evil" and "Neutral" list but this took waaay to long.

CTrees
2012-02-16, 10:30 PM
The paladin has access to some outsiders which are prepared casters. Keep them for more than a day->they need to prepare spells again->paladin has access to any spell on the cleric list of the spell levels he can access (at least, alignment appropriate). Including the planetar (I see NO reason a paladin couldn't have an NG ANGEL sent by a deity appropriate for worship), that's all cleric spells of 8th level or lower.