The Chinese-American dual-naming habbit. Why don't more minority groups practice it?

[Pika...]

If you don't know what I am talking about, from what I have seen Chinese and at least some other Asian groups give their kids an "American" name, but have their own Chinese/whatever name they use with family and such. An old friend was from Taiwanese parents and went by David here (and I believe legally), but had another name at home. Today I spoke with a lovely Chinese immigrant girl at a local restaurant and I immediately knew her name was not "Amber", so she ended up trying to teach me how to pronounce her name (boy she was cute...).

Growing up a minority here in the US I would have LOVED this to avoid issues. I eventually changed my name to a European/American name anyway, but as a kid it would have been nice.

It just kinda makes sense for the good of the child, or even an adult, to fit in, so I don't see why other immigrant cultures don't also practice this.

Your thoughts?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Because some people don't wanna be white-washed as just the same as everyone else in the new country, but celebrate their heritage?

[Grinner]

I have it on good word that Chinese is a tonal language, meaning a slight mispronunciation can change "hello" to "f*** you" (exaggeration). Additionally, China is an industrialized country, meaning its residents often communicate with other industrialized countries.

So, they may have adopted this practice to expedite inter-cultural exchange.

[Mando Knight]

Adopting an anglicized version of your name in America is more common the less "normal" it sounds to Americans. The more its altered from its native form is similar.

Johann, José, or Jacques? Fairly intelligible to many Americans. Lokeswarappa or Torkjel? Totally alien.

[WalkingTarget]

Then again, one of my good buddies from my undergrad days was named Ghen-ki (his father was Taiwanese, but he was born in upstate New York somewhere). No attempt at an "Americanized" name of any kind. The fact that his name has a hyphen in it caused problems with systems that insist on alphanumeric characters only.

[Brother Oni]

Speaking as someone who has such a dual name, it's mostly due to giving foreigners a pronouncable name to call them by.

It's common practice in Hong Kong, which has been under British rule for a while, so we know all about English people mangling the tones. :smalltongue:

Sometimes the English name is chosen by the individual to help non-Chinese speakers (two of my cousins chose their English names), so while you may call them 'Harry' in everyday conversation, on all official documentation they're using their birth name.
On occasion, the English name is a nickname given to them by others - the actor Jackie Chan got his name while he was a construction worker in Australia (Kong-sang was converted to 'Little Jack' which in turn became Jackie).

Cantonese only has two tones in their language, but there's still room for mispronouciation (the word for 'chicken' and 'prostitute' is only a tonal difference). Mandarin has four, the words for 'mother', 'horse', 'to argue' and 'hemp' being the best example off the top of my head.

[Roc Ness]

If you don't know what I am talking about, from what I have seen Chinese and at least some other Asian groups give their kids an "American" name, but have their own Chinese/whatever name they use with family and such. An old friend was from Taiwanese parents and went by David here (and I believe legally), but had another name at home. Today I spoke with a lovely Chinese immigrant girl at a local restaurant and I immediately knew her name was not "Amber", so she ended up trying to teach me how to pronounce her name (boy she was cute...).

Growing up a minority here in the US I would have LOVED this to avoid issues. I eventually changed my name to a European/American name anyway, but as a kid it would have been nice.

It just kinda makes sense for the good of the child, or even an adult, to fit in, so I don't see why other immigrant cultures don't also practice this.

Your thoughts?

I'm an Australian Chinese, and I have the English/Traditional name thing going. As do most of my friends, who are almost entirely Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Indian, or some other asian country with a native language other than English, all either born in or migrated to Australia. The ones that don't have an English name simply direct others to pronounce it in an english way, or shorten their name in a way that is easy to pronounce. My parents also adopted English names for ease of communications purposes when they migrated to this country. So, as far as I can tell, its pretty much a norm...

That is to say that, I have always believed it to be the most common occurence, and haven't really known of any immigrant cultures of which this practice is not undertaken by the majority. :smallconfused:

[Lady Moreta]

Sometimes the English name is chosen by the individual to help non-Chinese speakers (two of my cousins chose their English names), so while you may call them 'Harry' in everyday conversation, on all official documentation they're using their birth name.

That's what friends of mine did when they moved to New Zealand (originally from Taiwan). When they moved over, the kids were all allowed to pick their own English name. Which lead to some confusion because my mother just could not wrap her head around the fact that the middle kid's name was Mike. Not Michael. Mike. Took me a while to get that one through her head.

The oldest of the group eventually made her English name her legal first name and moved her Chinese (I believe they speak Mandarin) name to her middle name. I don't know about the other two, but I wouldn't be surprised to find they do the same thing.


The ones that don't have an English name simply direct others to pronounce it in an english way, or shorten their name in a way that is easy to pronounce. My parents also adopted English names for ease of communications purposes when they migrated to this country. So, as far as I can tell, its pretty much a norm...

That's kind of what the father of the friends above did. His Chinese name means 'wide' so that's what his English name is (also lead to confusion on the part of my mother, who kept thinking his name was Wade).

A friend of mine from Thailand did the same thing. Her real name is Cholticha, which I understand means something to do with running water or rivers or something (she told me once but it was ages ago and I forgot)... realising that no one could pronounce it properly, she told everyone to call her Nam (which from memory means water)... it was a couple of years in fact, before I even realised 'Nam' wasn't actually her name. Then she told me what her real name was and I understood completely.

I also worked briefly with an Indian guy (in Australia this time) who's first name was insanely long and horribly hard to pronounce so he shortened it to something easier for English speakers to say. Another guy used what I believe was actually his second name for most purposes (though I'm not sure that was because his first was hard to pronounce).


That is to say that, I have always believed it to be the most common occurence, and haven't really known of any immigrant cultures of which this practice is not undertaken by the majority. :smallconfused:

That's because you're in Australia, and like NZ, most of the immigrants are from places like China (or other Asian countries) where picking an English name is a fairly common practice. I imagine there are cultures in America who don't do the same thing, that simply aren't present over here (or at least, not present in large enough numbers that either of us have ever come across them).

[Xuc Xac]

Cantonese only has two tones in their language, but there's still room for mispronouciation (the word for 'chicken' and 'prostitute' is only a tonal difference). Mandarin has four, the words for 'mother', 'horse', 'to argue' and 'hemp' being the best example off the top of my head.

Cantonese in Guangzhou has 7 tones. In Hong Kong, it's 6 because they merged two of them.

[The_Admiral]

My parents arranged my name with my english name first and my Chinese name after that. It's quite common here. I only wish my parents gave me a name that was easier to reconcile the spelling and pronounciation.

[Brother Oni]

Cantonese in Guangzhou has 7 tones. In Hong Kong, it's 6 because they merged two of them.

I learnt to speak Hakka primarily, so my knowledge of other Chinese dialects is rudimentary at best. :smallredface:

[Terraoblivion]

From how I understood it in Chinese class, it's mostly traditional and based on how Chinese people would give foreigners Chinese names, likely due to the fact that it's kinda tricky to write non-Chinese names in Chinese. And by kinda tricky, I mean that you create an ungodly, clunky mess of a word when you try and it doesn't even sound like the original name at all. In mandarin, or putonghua or northern Chinese or whatever you want to call it, California is called Jialifuniya for example and pronouncing it is a hell.

And as such early Chinese immigrants just did what they expected everyone else to do, take a name from the language they were speaking, when moving abroad and the habit just stuck since then. It's also noteworthy that it's only the older immigrant groups that does it, that is to say predominantly the Chinese minority in North America, later groups like the Chinese people who reached continental Europe just use Chinese names.

[Yora]

Interestingly, we had lots of chinese and japanese exchange students at my last university in Germany and they always gave us their birth names which we would then use. Though japanese names are very easy to pronounce quite accurately for Germans, and I have no idea how much the chinese groaned in their heads every time they were called. Also, they would stay only for a year or two, very much confined to the university, without trying to integrate into the country as a whole. Might be a factor.

[noparlpf]

If you don't know what I am talking about, from what I have seen Chinese and at least some other Asian groups give their kids an "American" name, but have their own Chinese/whatever name they use with family and such. An old friend was from Taiwanese parents and went by David here (and I believe legally), but had another name at home. Today I spoke with a lovely Chinese immigrant girl at a local restaurant and I immediately knew her name was not "Amber", so she ended up trying to teach me how to pronounce her name (boy she was cute...).

Growing up a minority here in the US I would have LOVED this to avoid issues. I eventually changed my name to a European/American name anyway, but as a kid it would have been nice.

It just kinda makes sense for the good of the child, or even an adult, to fit in, so I don't see why other immigrant cultures don't also practice this.

Your thoughts?

I have a Chinese friend who has an American name and a Chinese name. I personally don't like the idea because those people are losing something of their culture and being assimilated into Western culture. It bothers me that we force other people coming into the US to adapt to us, instead of being willing to adapt to them. Chinese names aren't even that hard to pronounce anyway, compared to some crazy European names.

[Pika...]

I have a Chinese friend who has an American name and a Chinese name. I personally don't like the idea because those people are losing something of their culture and being assimilated into Western culture. It bothers me that we force other people coming into the US to adapt to us, instead of being willing to adapt to them. Chinese names aren't even that hard to pronounce anyway, compared to some crazy European names.

It always bothers me when people say this. You see, I am American born, but both uptight Hispanics and a lot of White/Black Americans just assume my culture is that of the South American country my parents are from.

Pretty unfair I feel, since I can't go around saying to White Americans "Your culture is British/Irish/Scottish/Etc.".

I understand some minorities (especially Hispanics) feel their culture is that of their ancestors, and parade it around endlessly, but trust me not all. I was born here, raised here, and I often butt heads with what I call "True Hispanics" over cultural differences (made much worse since many just assume I should have their point of view since I share a skin color).

Now if you had said "their ancestry", or even "their heritage" that would make things a little different.


ps.
And don't feel bad about those of us who choose assimilation over remaining in our parent's culture or trying to find an uneasy middleground. We choose it, and often have to deal with backlash from our race due to our choice, but again we choose to be who we are. No one can force you to assimilate.

[The_Ditto]

No one can force you to assimilate.

Well, there's always the borg ... :mitd: But then adopting a new name is something you have less choice over ... :tongue:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I've never understood this whole 'assimilation' thing. I don't think it's something that's really prevalent in Canada in the same way. Y'know, the old cliche that while American is a mixing pot where everyone comes out American, Canada is a mosaic where everyone stays their own nationality, but contributes to a whole...

[Karoht]

I would totally be cool with having a name in every language.
It's on the checklist for official secret agent status.
And it goes with the popular theory that a Wizard goes by many names.

[AsteriskAmp]

I think it's mainly because pronouncing a Chinese name correctly after hearing it, much less writing it correctly is close to impossible unless you know the language well, while names in other languages have English equivalents or aren't that hard to actually pronounce and write, or have been made common by pop culture.

Think most latin languages.
Jacques isn't that hard to write and if you really want you have the equivalent Jack.
Pedro or Pietro, if you really want an equivalent you have Peter.
Augusto, you can go with August easily.

German names are also not that hard since both English and German are saxon languages, and there are also a myriad of equivalents, and lots and lots of coincidences.

Scandinavian names have gotten a fair share of pop cultural osmosis and bastardizations and Russian names have also become common.

Sometimes equivalents allow you to pass unperceived more easily, sometimes it's a term of not wanting to infinitely repeat your name. In Chinese there are no actual equivalents in English, so I think it's also a need in terms of comfort for telling someone to write your name over the phone.

[GolemsVoice]

German names are also not that hard since both English and German are saxon languages, and there are also a myriad of equivalents, and lots and lots of coincidences.


Yep, I once heard that it is quite common for people from eastern Europe to choose names that work both in their language and in German. Like Aleksander/Alexander, Pjotr/Peter etc....

[Goosefeather]

I've never understood this whole 'assimilation' thing. I don't think it's something that's really prevalent in Canada in the same way. Y'know, the old cliche that while America is a mixing pot where everyone comes out American, Canada is a mosaic where everyone stays their own nationality, but contributes to a whole...

Ironically, in one of my French classes the other day we had to discuss an article on this topic; while it argued that France assimilates its immigrants and 'Frenchifies' them, the article gave the USA as an example of the opposite, citing the presence of terms such as 'Italo-American' or 'Afro-American' as evidence of the way different communities keep aspects of their original culture, rather than becoming completely assimilated.

Not having ever lived in the States myself, however, I cannot really give an informed personal opinion.

[ThreadKiller]

ps.
And don't feel bad about those of us who choose assimilation over remaining in our parent's culture or trying to find an uneasy middleground. We choose it, and often have to deal with backlash from our race due to our choice, but again we choose to be who we are. No one can force you to assimilate.

My parents gave me and my siblings English names and my dad's only reasoning was that "you looked like a Tim, Diana, etc." I was kinda envious of other people who had ethnic names, but at least I still have my middle name and last name.

I've had mixed feelings about assimilation. I find that many aspects of my parent's culture don't find into this American culture, so I would probably consider myself assimilated. Others may call us white-washed, which does hurt a little bit. Of course, it's odd for me to say I'm assimilating since I was born here. However, I've been feeling guilty about not learning about my own heritage, so I took a few classes to learn how to speak my native language and I've been asking my parents questions or reading up about my culture. The odd thing is that my parents, especially my dad, encouraged me and my siblings to get an education, and both our parents hardly ever talked about our culture. I suppose I'm trying to find a middle ground, but it can be tough. Anyway, I digress.

[Terraoblivion]

As a person actually living in Scandinavia, I can assure you that most of the Scandinavian names you get through pop cultural osmosis aren't really used much in the modern day. At least not in Denmark, Norway and Iceland especially tends to hang on to older names more than we do. However, the names actually used in Danish are mostly names that also exist in English Christian, Simon and Daniel are all commonly used just like Christina, Maria, Sofie and similar. There are some exceptions of course, like Morten or Søren or Lise, but they're not as commonly used as the paneuropean ones.

[razark]

Ironically, in one of my French classes the other day we had to discuss an article on this topic; while it argued that France assimilates its immigrants and 'Frenchifies' them, the article gave the USA as an example of the opposite, citing the presence of terms such as 'Italo-American' or 'Afro-American' as evidence of the way different communities keep aspects of their original culture, rather than becoming completely assimilated.
My guess on why this happens in the US:

The country is made up of immigrants. A group of people coming across the Atlantic by boat would have started in the same country/region, and would have gotten off the boat together. They wouldn't have many people they already knew in the US, and people tend to be quite herd-animalish, so the groups stuck together. As later groups started coming over from the original countries, they would have settled with/near other people from their homelands, because people get homesick, and having folks around that cook food from the old country, speak the language, hold to the same customs, etc. is comforting. Groups coming from new countries, as immigration patterns changed, would have tended to group together into their own ethnic enclaves, and existing prejudices against "them dirty foreigners that ain't like us good Americans" would have tended to push those groups from settling amongst the "decent folk".

Perhaps the reason it isn't happening in France so much is that immigrants tend to arrive in smaller groups, more easily broken down and dissolving into French culture. There's also the aspect the France has existed for a very long time, and had time to develop it's culture, whereas America is rather more recent, and has assembled what culture it has out of stealing bits and pieces from everyone else's.

[Mando Knight]

being assimilated

And don't feel bad about those of us who choose assimilation
No one can force you to assimilate.

Well, there's always the borg ... :mitd:

I've never understood this whole 'assimilation' thing.

it argued that France assimilates its immigrants
Resistance is futile. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItHcsIHshhs) Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service... us.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's not just Chinese-Americans; Korean-Americans do it too. I've always went to school with a lot of Asian-Americans (usually either they immigrated with their parents as children or their parents immigrated) and most of my friends are Asian. I think two of the main reasons are assimilation and ease of pronunciation. But the dual-naming habit isn't always the case. I've always known people who use a Chinese or Korean first name as well as a surname, and one of my friends has a Chinese first name and an American surname, though she's mixed-race.

Actually, surnames are more important than first names in Asian cultures, right?

[Greenish]

Scandinavian names have gotten a fair share of pop cultural osmosis and bastardizations and Russian names have also become common.Though Finnish, there in between, seems to be harder.

Introducing myself to English-speakers, the replies I've gotten are usually stuff like "beg your pardon?", "gesundheit" or (I kid you not) "oh, so that's your name, I thought you were just making noises".

If I ever immigrated to an English-speaking country, I'd probably start telling people to call me "John" or something.

[Eldariel]

Though Finnish, there in between, seems to be harder.

Well, that's 'cause our language isn't Germanic or Slavic (but rather Finno-Ugric) so our names tend to sound kinda weird by western standards; I still haven't found a foreigner capable of pronouncing my first name correctly.

Though I do know of some cases of Finnish athletes having their name spread; notably the Formula 1 driver Jarno Trulli was named after the motorcycle road racer Jarno Saarinen. Amusingly he made a very similar career choice too.

[Illieas]

THe dual naming came about do to racism in the early years. any immigrant that came in had to take an americanized name. the change to allow pinyinized name is rather more recent development. I have seen more recent immigrants usually keep their chinese name while older ones usually don't.

Most immigrant didn't have much comfort with the english language. so everyone has a chinese name and an english name to make communication easier with the new immigrants. why it is done with second generation is multitudes of reasons some for cultural loyalty, family generation naming, or for ease of dealing with family over seas.

the need for a english name. it is either because you have adapt to american living and so take american names but there is also a under current of a racism issue because if a resume comes up with a foreign name such as yao ming versus chris ming. you are going to more suspicisous of the foreign one and wonder if they are gonna be able to speak english clearly or adapt to the american culture.

why other minorities don't do it? from my dealing there are equal amount of indians and midle east people that do it as well. euro tend to get a pass depending on how obscure the name. like my roomate is johannes but he goes by jon.

[Lord Seth]

My guess on why this happens in the US:

The country is made up of immigrants. A group of people coming across the Atlantic by boat would have started in the same country/region, and would have gotten off the boat together. They wouldn't have many people they already knew in the US, and people tend to be quite herd-animalish, so the groups stuck together. As later groups started coming over from the original countries, they would have settled with/near other people from their homelands, because people get homesick, and having folks around that cook food from the old country, speak the language, hold to the same customs, etc. is comforting. Groups coming from new countries, as immigration patterns changed, would have tended to group together into their own ethnic enclaves, and existing prejudices against "them dirty foreigners that ain't like us good Americans" would have tended to push those groups from settling amongst the "decent folk".I'm not sure. I think the usage of terms African-American or Asian-American is mostly just a way of racial classification rather than any kind of ethnic thing. It's why, at least in my experience, you'll hear Asian-American all the time, but more specific terms (e.g. Japanese-American, Chinese-American) are generally not used. Ditto, with, say, Arab-American. Heck, for that matter, people of European ancestry tend to get clumped together as well.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure. I think the usage of terms African-American or Asian-American is mostly just a way of racial classification rather than any kind of ethnic thing. It's why, at least in my experience, you'll hear Asian-American all the time, but more specific terms (e.g. Japanese-American, Chinese-American) are generally not used. Ditto, with, say, Arab-American. Heck, for that matter, people of European ancestry tend to get clumped together as well.I haven't heard "European-American" used too often. :smallamused:

[AsteriskAmp]

I haven't heard "European-American" used too often. :smallamused:

Because the U.S.A. hasn't had European mass migration but somewhat localized ones. Which normally give birth to terms like Italo-American.

[AtlanteanTroll]

My dad's parents emigrated from Sulmona back during the 30s and everyone on his side in his generation has an Italian name (even though everyone is called an Anglicized version of that name). My dad's name is Giuseppe, but everyone calls him Joe. My uncle Ronaldo is Ron, my uncle Nicola is Nick, my uncle Pasquale is Pat, my aunt Lucia is Lucy. Some of my cousins still have more Italian names, but it's getting less and less common.

This isn't the same, I guess, as Italian uses the same alphabet as English, but whatever. I thought I'd throw my 2 bits in.

Random fun fact. I have a cousin named Mario Luigi. Oh yeah. :smallwink:

[noparlpf]

It always bothers me when people say this. You see, I am American born, but both uptight Hispanics and a lot of White/Black Americans just assume my culture is that of the South American country my parents are from.

Pretty unfair I feel, since I can't go around saying to White Americans "Your culture is British/Irish/Scottish/Etc.".

I understand some minorities (especially Hispanics) feel their culture is that of their ancestors, and parade it around endlessly, but trust me not all. I was born here, raised here, and I often butt heads with what I call "True Hispanics" over cultural differences (made much worse since many just assume I should have their point of view since I share a skin color).

Now if you had said "their ancestry", or even "their heritage" that would make things a little different.


ps.
And don't feel bad about those of us who choose assimilation over remaining in our parent's culture or trying to find an uneasy middleground. We choose it, and often have to deal with backlash from our race due to our choice, but again we choose to be who we are. No one can force you to assimilate.

I suppose "ancestry" or "heritage" would be more accurate, but I was actually referring to first generation immigrants, in which case it would be "culture", no? But you're right that it's an important distinction.
And what I feel bad for isn't the assimilation itself but the expectation that so many middle-class-and-up (usually) white Americans have for everyone else to be just like them.


Though Finnish, there in between, seems to be harder.

Introducing myself to English-speakers, the replies I've gotten are usually stuff like "beg your pardon?", "gesundheit" or (I kid you not) "oh, so that's your name, I thought you were just making noises".

If I ever immigrated to an English-speaking country, I'd probably start telling people to call me "John" or something.

I actually laughed out loud for a full minute and had to explain to my friend why I was apparently having a seizure on her floor.
Out of curiosity, may I ask what your name is? I'm really curious now. If you feel comfortable sharing, could you PM me? If not, no worries, I usually don't like asking names online, I'm just really curious.

[Greenish]

I actually laughed out loud for a full minute and had to explain to my friend why I was apparently having a seizure on her floor.
Out of curiosity, may I ask what your name is? I'm really curious now. If you feel comfortable sharing, could you PM me? If not, no worries, I usually don't like asking names online, I'm just really curious.It's Juho. Conjure by it at your own risk.

Not sure how much that tells you about how to pronounce it, though.

[Lord Seth]

I haven't heard "European-American" used too often. :smallamused:There's still a clumping together, even if the clumping together is simply in that there's usually no term used for them (well, I guess there is "white" or "caucasian"...but European-American tends to not be used that much).
Because the U.S.A. hasn't had European mass migration but somewhat localized ones. Which normally give birth to terms like Italo-American.I don't think I've actually ever heard the term Italo-American in my life before now.

[Brother Oni]

...while names in other languages have English equivalents or aren't that hard to actually pronounce and write, or have been made common by pop culture.

Unless it's Polish. Ye gods does that language have an aversion to vowels. :smalltongue:


I've always known people who use a Chinese or Korean first name as well as a surname, and one of my friends has a Chinese first name and an American surname, though she's mixed-race.

Actually, surnames are more important than first names in Asian cultures, right?

As I pointed out earlier, the dual naming tends to be where there's been long term significant contact with English speakers (Hong Kong for example). Additionally, depending on whether your acquaintances and friends are first/second generation or later generation immigrants, is fairly influential in their naming.

As for the family name, sure it's more important, but each child still needs a given name, especially with the effort that goes into picking one since each name has a meaning due to the component characters (generational and individual parts) used.

Besides which, becoming lazy and calling your children 'Minion A', 'Minion B' and 'Minion C' is just asking for trouble. :smalltongue:

[Malfunctioned]

Well I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it but I suppose it is kinda practiced by the Jewish community.

I mean I've got my English name but I've also got my Hebrew name Moshe ben Hillel. Of course, that's only referred to during ceremonies, but I still consider it a separate name.

[AsteriskAmp]

Unless it's Polish. Ye gods does that language have an aversion to vowels. :smalltongue:
And an absurd love for the w and the y, oh and joining the c to whatever letter they can.

There's still a clumping together, even if the clumping together is simply in that there's usually no term used for them (well, I guess there is "white" or "caucasian"...but European-American tends to not be used that much).I don't think I've actually ever heard the term Italo-American in my life before now.
Weird, it's one of the three "European"-American terms.

German-American which is rather rare.
Irish-American, and Italo-American.

[Gnoman]

I've only ever heard it as "Italian-American.

[Lord Seth]

Weird, it's one of the three "European"-American terms.

German-American which is rather rare.
Irish-American, and Italo-American.I've heard Italian-American a few times, but never Italo-American.

Of course, that's part of my point: For the most part, they all get lumped together, with the more specific terms not being used that much. At least in my experience.

[Pika...]

Besides which, becoming lazy and calling your children 'Minion A', 'Minion B' and 'Minion C' is just asking for trouble. :smalltongue:

Hey, if I end up with boys I fully intend to name them as follows: The Second, III, IV, etc. :smallcool:

[Keld Denar]

My last name was "Americanized" when my family immigrated here in the 20s, and it was just a German last name. They dropped the umlaut, and changed the spelling slightly to conform with English. I don't feel like I've "lost" anything because of this.

I appreciate a person wishing to celebrate their culture and/or heritage. I really do. By all means, do so. But the official language of the US is English. Learn it. Speak it. And at least have a nickname or something that can be pronounced. If I moved to a country where my name was difficult to pronounce, I would gladly take a pseudonym that made it easier for people to call on me. Its for my benefit, as well as for the benefit of those around me. Why is it so wrongbadevil to expect the same when others come here?

Maybe that's insensitive of me, but that's how I feel.

[Pika...]

My last name was "Americanized" when my family immigrated here in the 20s, and it was just a German last name. They dropped the umlaut, and changed the spelling slightly to conform with English. I don't feel like I've "lost" anything because of this.

I appreciate a person wishing to celebrate their culture and/or heritage. I really do. By all means, do so. But the official language of the US is English. Learn it. Speak it. And at least have a nickname or something that can be pronounced. If I moved to a country where my name was difficult to pronounce, I would gladly take a pseudonym that made it easier for people to call on me. Its for my benefit, as well as for the benefit of those around me. Why is it so wrongbadevil to expect the same when others come here?

Maybe that's insensitive of me, but that's how I feel.


You think people look at you wrong when you say it? Try being of their race. :smallconfused:

[Knaight]

Cantonese only has two tones in their language, but there's still room for mispronouciation (the word for 'chicken' and 'prostitute' is only a tonal difference). Mandarin has four, the words for 'mother', 'horse', 'to argue' and 'hemp' being the best example off the top of my head.

Mandarin has four, plus the neutral, plus tones that blur into neutral under certain situations. That said, the grammatical structure makes pretty much perfect sense, so it's not as if spoken Mandarin is particularly difficult to learn - just compare it to English, which is a mess in a great many respects.

Regarding the original topic, it's also common for names to be slightly anglicized - if this weren't the internet, I'd be using my ancestry as an example (Greek's cyrillic script is different enough for there to be some changes, but specific names are a bit more personal than I like getting on public forums).

[Lord Seth]

But the official language of the US is English.The US has no official language.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it but I suppose it is kinda practiced by the Jewish community.

I mean I've got my English name but I've also got my Hebrew name Moshe ben Hillel. Of course, that's only referred to during ceremonies, but I still consider it a separate name.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that for a moment.

[Joran]

I appreciate a person wishing to celebrate their culture and/or heritage. I really do. By all means, do so. But the official language of the US is English. Learn it. Speak it. And at least have a nickname or something that can be pronounced. If I moved to a country where my name was difficult to pronounce, I would gladly take a pseudonym that made it easier for people to call on me. Its for my benefit, as well as for the benefit of those around me. Why is it so wrongbadevil to expect the same when others come here?

Maybe that's insensitive of me, but that's how I feel.

Actually, there is no official language of the United States. The de facto language is English, but officially, at the Federal level, there is no national language. That's why you see so many official forms printed in Spanish, French, Chinese, and other languages.

Your name is your name. It is your identity. It is up to the individual person to choose their name and how they present themselves. Most people will adopt a nickname because it makes things easier and to avoid complication. If people want to have pride in their name, I have no problem with it.

The same with a wife keeping her maiden name. It is her choice.


I personally don't like the idea because those people are losing something of their culture and being assimilated into Western culture. It bothers me that we force other people coming into the US to adapt to us, instead of being willing to adapt to them. Chinese names aren't even that hard to pronounce anyway, compared to some crazy European names.

The name is a name, it doesn't play into how much you assimilate or not. I have a friend whose legal name is his Chinese name and married a wife whose legal name is her Chinese name. They kept as much Chinese culture as I have with my English legal name.

I like American culture. When people ask me where I'm from, I am absolutely proud to say I'm from America. I am also proud of my heritage, my ethnicity, where my ancestors came from. I pick and choose the best pieces of both and I'm happy with it.

There's more acceptance of different cultures now in the United States. When my wife's grandmother's family came over from Sweden, their name was anglicized and they did not teach her Swedish, because they feared it would hurt her assimilation into the culture. She regrets not being able to speak Swedish to this day.

For me, my family made sure to get me a Chinese babysitter, sent me to Chinese school. They also gave me an English name because it's easier to say and use in every day life. They also gave me a Chinese name (and a completely different nickname!) to keep me closer to my roots too.

[TheThan]

I think a lot of this depends a lot upon each individual name. A non English name like Sakura is pretty easy for an English speaker to pronounce, others, less so. Using an alternative name is purely a personal choice.

[Brother Oni]

Regarding the original topic, it's also common for names to be slightly anglicized - if this weren't the internet, I'd be using my ancestry as an example (Greek's cyrillic script is different enough for there to be some changes, but specific names are a bit more personal than I like getting on public forums).

Regarding anglicisation, it helps if there's a consistent manner to do so in languages with little similarity to English.

The family name 黃 apparently has 20 different ways to romanise it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_(surname)), due to differences in pronouciation and even though pinyin is the standard system of romanisation these days, there's enough texts that use Wade-Giles to really confuse things.

The Three Kingdoms era King of Wei for example, is Cáo Cāo in pinyin, but Ts'ao Ts'ao in Wade-Giles.

[Knaight]

Regarding anglicisation, it helps if there's a consistent manner to do so in languages with little similarity to English.

The family name 黃 apparently has 20 different ways to romanise it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_(surname)), due to differences in pronouciation and even though pinyin is the standard system of romanisation these days, there's enough texts that use Wade-Giles to really confuse things.

The Three Kingdoms era King of Wei for example, is Cáo Cāo in pinyin, but Ts'ao Ts'ao in Wade-Giles.

Wei had several kings in the Three Kingdoms era - as did Wu and Shu, as it was a fairly long era. As for Anglicization, I agree - Pinyin is really a quite nice system, Wade-Giles really just needs to go away already, and everything that isn't one of those two never needed to be. That said, Chinese is at least more unified than Arabic, where you have the numerous ways of writing everything, then the seemingly random old Anglicization examples that don't even preserve the pronunciation. Getting Alhazen from Ibn Al-Haytham, for instance.

[Brother Oni]

Wei had several kings in the Three Kingdoms era - as did Wu and Shu, as it was a fairly long era.

The Three Kingdoms era wasn't that long - about 60 years according to Wikipedia, although if you date it from the time of the Yellow Turbans, it adds about 30 years.

Cao Cao was king and his son, Cao Pi, was king but he then stole the throne, declared himself Emperor and all subsequent Wei rulers were styled Emperor.

Cao Cao was post-humously made an emperor, but he only ever claimed the title of king.

[noparlpf]

It's Juho. Conjure by it at your own risk.

Not sure how much that tells you about how to pronounce it, though.

Gezundheit? :b
I have several ideas but I'm afraid to even try just from reading it.

[Yora]

Hey, if I end up with boys I fully intend to name them as follows: The Second, III, IV, etc. :smallcool:

In Ran, the kings three sons are named Taro, Jiro, and Saburo. Which means exactly that. :smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

In Ran, the kings three sons are named Taro, Jiro, and Saburo. Which means exactly that. :smallbiggrin:

I believe the King's children in Stardust follow the exact naming system (Primas, Secundus, Tertius, etc for the boys, Una for the girl).

Japanese is a bit odd, since there's a whole bunch of names that have the same meaning and can be written the same, but different pronouciation, like Ichigo and Hajime with your Taro example.

[Greenish]

And an absurd love for the w and the y, oh and joining the c to whatever letter they can.

Weird, it's one of the three "European"-American terms.

German-American which is rather rare.
Irish-American, and Italo-American.I've seen English-American once or twice, but only in reference to first-generation immigrants.

[Knaight]

The Three Kingdoms era wasn't that long - about 60 years according to Wikipedia, although if you date it from the time of the Yellow Turbans, it adds about 30 years.

Cao Cao was king and his son, Cao Pi, was king but he then stole the throne, declared himself Emperor and all subsequent Wei rulers were styled Emperor.

Cao Cao was post-humously made an emperor, but he only ever claimed the title of king.

All subsequent Wei rulers styled themselves Emperor, sure. Wu and Shu weren't going to call them by that, and given that Jin had an interest in discrediting Wei (given that they kind of took over in a bloody civil war) they weren't either. In any case, given reign lengths 60 years is quite significant, 90 even more so (and I do include the Yellow Scarves Rebellions).

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Heh, my brother in law is spanish. His real name is Martin. Perfectly normal english name. However, his family and other spanish/mexican always call him Sammy.

He's duel named for no reason he's ever been able to understand, and they're both completely americanized :P

[Joran]

Heh, my brother in law is spanish. His real name is Martin. Perfectly normal english name. However, his family and other spanish/mexican always call him Sammy.

He's duel named for no reason he's ever been able to understand, and they're both completely americanized :P

Is Samuel his middle name? Is there a Mexican tradition where people get nicknames?

There's many reasons why someone takes on a nickname. They could share a name with a family member (Juniors and Trip.) They may dislike their name and adopt a new one (I have a friend named Michael, but it's very common, so he switched to Mitch). Finally, in some cultures, they have legal names and nicknames. In Thailand, for instance, all my cousins-in-law have legal first names, but always go by their nicknames with family. For Russians, common first names get common nicknames, (e.g. Alexander = Sasha).

[Mainlander]

As an Irish Gaelic student with two friends/teachers from Gaeltachts in Ireland, I've been told double names can happen over there. I won't use their actual names, but say your name was Padraig Mac Piarais. One of my teachers told us that you could have two passports/legal names, one under the Irish Padraig Mac Piarais and the other under an anglicised name, Patrick Pearse.

I'm currently learning Chinese now and the phenomenon works the other way. My Chinese professor has a Chinese name that sounds completely authentic and un-English (she's Canadian, not even Chinese-Canadian, but has lived in China at various points in her life), and we've all been given Chinese names to use in class/in China if we ever make the trip.

[Joran]

I'm currently learning Chinese now and the phenomenon works the other way. My Chinese professor has a Chinese name that sounds completely authentic and un-English (she's Canadian, not even Chinese-Canadian, but has lived in China at various points in her life), and we've all been given Chinese names to use in class/in China if we ever make the trip.

I think that's common in foreign language classes. In French class, we adopted French names, either a French version of our actual name or one that we liked better. My friend was a huge Star Trek fan, so of course he picked "Jean-Luc".

[Goosefeather]

Heh, my brother in law is spanish. His real name is Martin. Perfectly normal english name. However, his family and other spanish/mexican always call him Sammy.

He's duel named for no reason he's ever been able to understand, and they're both completely americanized :P

Heck, Martín is a perfectly valid Spanish name as well! Look at Martín Fierro for a famous example - though for the love of God don't try to read it unless you have a special thing for horses...

[Terraoblivion]

Having learned at least some English, Spanish, French, German, Latin and Chinese over my life, I can safely say that Chinese is the only language I've experienced where people get new names. Like I said before, that's a general way of handling foreigners in China, rather than trying to cobble a random string of characters together in a nonsense phrase that vaguely sounds like their foreign name. The latter creates some real tongue twisters that are nigh-impossible to write, so it makes sense given how they have no phonetic writing.

[Greenish]

Back when Latin was alive and kicking, didn't they give everyone Latin names?

[Terraoblivion]

Nah, they just changed the ending so the name worked with Latin grammar. Normally, at least, there are exceptions, but mostly they didn't. At least not in ancient Rome, the middle ages and renaissance was quite fond of doing it to everyone.

[Lord Seth]

I think that's common in foreign language classes. In French class, we adopted French names, either a French version of our actual name or one that we liked better. My friend was a huge Star Trek fan, so of course he picked "Jean-Luc".I never liked it when we had to do that; it always just kind of felt pointless. Weirdest was probably in one Spanish class, where we got Spanish animal names. Yeah, that's right. People were supposed to be referred to by things like "Murciélago" (bat) rather than their actual names. Made it immensely frustrating to remember who anyone actually was.

[Haruki-kun]

As a foreigner living in the US I can say that... this is actually not a bad idea. I'd totally tell people I have an English name, but at this point, I just have to keep going with them knowing my very Spanish name.

EDIT: I personally don't think it affects my heritage in any way, so...