A sense of family among good, A sense of good among family

[Sunken Valley]

This is likely the phrase that set Elan off. What do you think Elan interpreted it as? Why would he need Durkon? Who wants to be an epic level ranger and track Elan's mind

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well my first instinct was to ask Durkon to cast a cleric spell (whose name escapes me) that shows the ancestry of the target. There are certain issues with this spell, mainly it comes from Book of Erotic Fantasies (though its a much tamer spell compared to other things in that book) and ever since I wanted to use it in a game I've become obsessed with finding applications for it. So I'm kinda biased (a lot).

[SlyJohnny]

He probably mistook Roy's statement as "find the good in your existing family members", and translated it to "redeem your father and convert him to Chaotic Good, possibly with the aid of clerical magic."

Who knows? It might sort of work. Maybe he wants Durkon to make a Helm of Opposite Alignment or something.

[Sunken Valley]

Upon further consultation "the hole a family member can leave behind" could have set him off as well.

Speculate!

[Learuis]

Upon further consultation "the hole a family member can leave behind" could have set him off as well.

Speculate!


I can't remember if Elan's mother is alive or not... but my thought was that Elan will ask Durkon to cast Speak with Dead (Sending if she's alive) to contact his mother. The "hole a family member can leave behind" might be what can bring them back together.

[EmperorSarda]

I can't remember if Elan's mother is alive or not... but my thought was that Elan will ask Durkon to cast Speak with Dead (Sending if she's alive) to contact his mother. The "hole a family member can leave behind" might be what can bring them back together.

She never died. But he could want a Sending spell to contact his mom so she can come visit.

[Psyren]

Hmm... She IS the only wife that Tarquin never killed/imprisoned (well, aside from Ms. Draketooth's potential unknown assailant), and he's disposed of them for far less slight than something as messy/humiliating as divorce proceedings.

Knowing why she was treated so differently from the others may be the key to Tarquin's redemption.

[NerfTW]

There's also a chance it has something to do with Eugene, as the Order (or at the very least Elan) should know about him by now. (Haley met him in person after the trial)

[Morgan Wick]

I can't remember if Elan's mother is alive or not... but my thought was that Elan will ask Durkon to cast Speak with Dead (Sending if she's alive) to contact his mother. The "hole a family member can leave behind" might be what can bring them back together.


She never died. But he could want a Sending spell to contact his mom so she can come visit.


Hmm... She IS the only wife that Tarquin never killed/imprisoned (well, aside from Ms. Draketooth's potential unknown assailant), and he's disposed of them for far less slight than something as messy/humiliating as divorce proceedings.

Knowing why she was treated so differently from the others may be the key to Tarquin's redemption.

This theory... is amazingly plausible.

[Psyren]

There's also a chance it has something to do with Eugene, as the Order (or at the very least Elan) should know about him by now. (Haley met him in person after the trial)

I would consider him an odd choice to talk to, as Tarquin is already a better father than Eugene. It would be a (literal) dead end.

[Vahir]

Go, OotS fans! Theorize to your hearts content! Leave none alive!

As for the thread itself, Tarquin is not going to get redeemed. There's just no way.

[Amarsir]

OK here's a theory: Elan's going to ask Haley to marry him. He wants Durkon to do the honors.

[Avaris]

I'm fairly certain it'll involve elan's mother. Elan needs a way to 'defeat' tarquin without making him seem glorious... what better way to do so than to involve his ex-wife in it?

[Alagaesian]

My personal pet theory is that the "hole a family member leaves behind" is what set off Elan's plan. Specifically, someone in Elan's family left a literal hole in him. Elan now wants Durkon's help to Send to that family member and convince him to leave a hole in his father.

[Michaeler]

Nale left a hole in Elan after running him through. I wonder if that has something to do with Elan's inspiration?

[Landis963]

We're all missing a few things here. Tarquin is not quite as kill-happy with his spouses as he appears. For one, he let Elan's mother go, and for two, Penelope died under mysterious circumstances, ones that, if he was telling the truth to Nale, he was not involved in. What's more, Penelope was, judging from the party scene, unaware or willfully unaware of Tarquin's actions regarding his tripartite empire.

Therefore, I predict that
Elan will get Durkon to Speak With Dead Penelope, then either True Resurrect her so that she can destabilize Tarquin at a crucial moment, or at least get her side of the "mysterious circumstances".

[hoff]

If Elan brings his mom to talk to Nale or Tarquin it's quite probable one of them will kill her in order to increase his angst.

I mean, a tragic hero must not have any family members alive. Except if they are evil.

[Psyren]

Go, OotS fans! Theorize to your hearts content! Leave none alive!

As for the thread itself, Tarquin is not going to get redeemed. There's just no way.

Sure he can, without even cheating karma. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath)

What he needs to remember - or learn - is that the most important legacy a man can leave behind is not the empires he brings to its knees, but rather, it's his children.

[Forbiddenwar]

What he needs to remember - or learn - is that the most important legacy a man can leave behind is not the empires he brings to its knees, but rather, it's his children.

What better legacy to give to his children than the leading role of the best story ever. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)

[Forbiddenwar]

What he needs to remember - or learn - is that the most important legacy a man can leave behind is not the empires he brings to its knees, but rather, it's his children.

What better legacy to give to his children than the leading role of the best story ever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)?

[Psyren]

What better legacy to give to his children than the leading role of the best story ever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)?

He's doing that for himself, not for them, and thus he does not deserve it.

[Howler Dagger]

OK here's a theory: Elan's going to ask Haley to marry him. He wants Durkon to do the honors.

This is exactly what I thought. "Find family among the good" and involving Durkon was how I came to this.

[Boogastreehouse]

OK here's a theory: Elan's going to ask Haley to marry him. He wants Durkon to do the honors.


This is exactly what I thought. "Find family among the good" and involving Durkon was how I came to this.

I've seen this suggested a few times here and on the main thread, but as of yet, no one has offered even a vague idea of what this would accomplish.

[ZMiles]

My thoughts ran in a slightly different direction -- I don't think it has anything to do with Elan's mother, but instead with Tarquin's allies.

Elan wants to take down Tarquin without glamorizing him or making him look awesome, which is why he doesn't want to duel Tarquin himself. Even a redemption story could end up glorifying Tarquin. "The mighty despot, conquered by love of family" is a fairly common trope that Elan would be familiar with (see: Darth Vader), and he sounded like he was dead-set against wanting people to think his father was cool or interesting or anything positive. Plus, I doubt that Elan sees his father as redeemable -- this is a guy who burnt a bunch of slaves to death for kicks.

Also, Haley mentioned a while back that even if Tarquin died, Malack could resurrect him, and even if they both died, the other four members of Team Tarquin could bring them back. So any plan to deal with Tarquin has to deal with them as well.

Lastly, Roy's comment was about Elan trying to find a sense of family among those like him -- presumably, those on the Order of the Stick. And Tarquin was also part of a party, and was presumably friends with the others (or at least he trusts them enough to keep their shell game going).

So I think that what Elan is planning is some way of tricking the other four into thinking that Tarquin (and maybe Malack) have betrayed them, either by going good (tricking the others into seeing "the good among family,") or by just wanting to seize the Gate and rule the whole Western Continent. He wants the other four to show up and fight Tarquin in an ignoble fratricide amongst the evil conspirators. If Tarquin dies, then he's remembered just as a guy who got punked by his own team, and his evil plot is just a laughable footnote ("they had three empires under their thumb and they still screwed it up!"). More probably, he lives -- it's the dramatic way to go, and Elan would know it -- but he's ruined. Suddenly his evil plan has fallen apart because he doesn't have people to keep the other empires loyal to him now. If Durkon and Elan can spread the word about what Tarquin did, the citizens of all three empires can know to whom to attribute their oppression... and that there's one guy left on whom to get revenge. The other two might even turn on the Empire of Blood. So Tarquin either has to flee in disgrace, or probably get torn apart by a mob of unruly citizens or enemy soldiers. He would probably do the former, and so would be remembered as yet another would-be conqueror, until he was forgotten in three months.

I don't think Elan's mom factors into things at all. Tarquin has the resources to have contacted her by now if he wanted to; he could have visited, her, even, but there's no indication that he did. I don't get the impression that Tarquin's love for any of his wives is more than momentary lust, so using her wouldn't be an effective strategy.

[Vahir]

Sure he can, without even cheating karma. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath)

What he needs to remember - or learn - is that the most important legacy a man can leave behind is not the empires he brings to its knees, but rather, it's his children.

I'll grant you the first point.

As for the second, it sort of fits in his plan too. His legacy is indeed Elan, because it's Elan that will bring him down, earning him fame through his son. He will probably have a Vader-esque moment where he will lie dying in Elan's arms, realizing the error of his ways, in a theatrical fashion.

[FlyingCandles]

I'm probably not the first one to say this, but here's my take on it for this topic.

I personally think Elan called for Julio Scoundrel's assistance. Given all of the Star Wars references so far (Tarquin revealing himself as Elan's father, the stuff with Gannji and Enor, Julio refering to Elan as his "padawan," etc.) it makes a lot of sense that Julio would be called in to fight and be killed by Tarquin the same way Vader killed Obi-Wan.

Julio even kinda foreshadowed the ordeal himself by telling Elan what would happen if the two ever met again, and that he sincerely hoped they never crossed paths. Some people have mentioned this as a reason why Julio would never want to cross paths with Elan again, but Elan, even as genre savvy as he is, wouldn't think twice about calling for his old mentor's help.

To add to that, Julio is arguably Elan's most skillful ally, probably the most qualified person to take Tarquin at this time (he made top 32nd swordsmen of the century, even if Tarquin is probably one of his 31 superiors); he fits the description of "family among people who are good," since Elan met him before discovering his father and likely still looks up to him as a fatherly figure; he's got an aiship, making the likelihood fo him actually showing up to help to help Elan a lot more feasible than anyone else; and he's got the stones, manpower, and all-around genre saviness to find his way there, break through whatever obstacles are in his way, and arrive just in time to help the heroes.

I can almost guarantee that Julio is going to arrive just in time to save someone (most likely Elan or Haley), have an epic fight with Tarquin, be slain in front of Elan, and die in Elan's arms (or sacrificing himself so Elan and the others can escape), causing Elan to swear vengeance toward his father and build even more angst. He may even come back as a ghost at a later point to give Elan advice. (if that happens, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shojo alongside him though probably not there to speak to Elan).

I'd even go so far as to carry on with the Star Wars references and predict that Tarquin will eventually team up with Xykon in a similar method to Vader and Sidious, since we know Xykon's on his way there too. That might be stretching it though.

[Sunken Valley]

I like Zmile's theory.

Although Elan has one additional challenge. If he wants Tarquin to be defeated, he has to stop us from liking him. We all secretly admire Tarquin. Even though he tortures slaves, breaks his wives down and forces a guy to duel his own puppy, we still admire his dangerously Genre Saavy, his xanatos gambit and his calm demeanour, in the same way we think Xykon is funny or Redcloak is a tragic character. Elan is going to have to stop us from putting Tarquin up there with Team Evil and the Linear Guild in OOTS infamy. And I don't see how that will happen

[Forbiddenwar]

Personally, I don't think Elan will get the chance to kill Tarquin. Xykon is going to run over Tarquin like a 70 mph semi hitting a banana.

Then Elan will get the whole "You killed my father? I was suppose to kill him" angst.

[ti'esar]

I like Zmile's theory.

Although Elan has one additional challenge. If he wants Tarquin to be defeated, he has to stop us from liking him. We all secretly admire Tarquin. Even though he tortures slaves, breaks his wives down and forces a guy to duel his own puppy, we still admire his dangerously Genre Saavy, his xanatos gambit and his calm demeanour, in the same way we think Xykon is funny or Redcloak is a tragic character. Elan is going to have to stop us from putting Tarquin up there with Team Evil and the Linear Guild in OOTS infamy. And I don't see how that will happen

Speak for yourself. I find Tarquin an excellent villain and enjoyable to read about, but I don't remotely like him. He's a murderous megalomaniac who needs to die, gloriously or otherwise. Even if "Redemption Equals Death" is in play, I'm still going to have a hard time buying any redemption scenario with him.

Personally, I think Forbiddenwar's post is the most plausible outcome - Xykon will reclaim his status as the indisputable BBEG by squashing Tarquin like a bug. But it's not really relevant to this thread how he ultimately goes down; the question is on what Elan's plan is, not whether it will work or not.

[HearTheRequiem]

...I have a theory.

What about Malack's children? Losing them certainly left a hole for Malack, and if Elan and Durkon did...something to bring them back, or something, they might be able to lure Malack away from Tarquin and break down the three-states thing, so Tarquin wouldn't have a cushy dictator job any more!

[Forbiddenwar]

...I have a theory.

What about Malack's children? Losing them certainly left a hole for Malack, and if Elan and Durkon did...something to bring them back, or something,

I can't imagine anything that Durkon can do about those dead children that Malack, as a higher level cleric, has not tried and failed to do.