[PrC] Fighting fire with fire (or rather, caster with caster)

[Phosphate]

The Arcane Breaker
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4e/20080328_drdd_2th.jpg

These powers were yours to meld since birth. And just as you can make them cease and start within your own hands, so you can cease and start them in others. - Julius Drayeth, Arcane Breaker

Becoming an Arcane Breaker: One does not simply become a breaker. One has to be born this way - with a special affinity to magic that is unique from that practiced by others - somehow, complementary. However, while there are those who are breakers as a second nature as nothing is easier to them than negating magic, any sorcerer who works hard enough can be disciplined to control his energy in such a way as to break others' magic.

Associations: Arcane Breakers have long worked on both sides of the magical conflict - some taking the side of inquisitive templars hunting down apostate mages, while others championing for the freedom and prosperity of everyone gifted with arcane prowess. Regardless, they are usually take up roles of leadership in their respective groups.

Stats: All mental attributes (Wis, Int and Cha) are important for an Arcane Breaker and he benefits from having high values in all of them.

Alignment: any, though they have a tendency to not be neutral on the law-chaos axis.

Requirements:
Class: 1+ levels in Sorcerer
Spells: able to cast Dispel Magic spontaneously as an arcane spell
Skills: Spellcraft 9 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 9 ranks
Special: Must have killed a spellcaster in a 1 vs 1 battle.

Hit dice: d8

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all) (Int), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int)
Skill points: 4+int mod

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Arcane Breaker gains no new weapon and armor proficiencies.

{table=head]Level|BaB|F Save|R Save|W Save|Special|Also
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Filter|
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Arcane Burn, Banish|+1 to spellcaster level
3|+2|+3|+1|+3|Filter|
4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Mindflay, Negation|+1 to spellcaster level
5|+3|+4|+1|+4|Filter|
6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Arcane Comprehension, Backlash|+1 to spellcaster level
7|+5|+5|+2|+5|Filter|
8|+6|+6|+2|+6|Mental Fortress, Mana Clash|+1 to spellcaster level
9|+6|+6|+3|+6|Filter|
10|+7|+7|+3|+7|Break|+1 to spellcaster level[/table]

Filter (Ex): At first level, and every odd level thereafter, select a spell that allows SR from the Sor/Wis spell list. You become unable to learn or cast that spell. However, if that spell is used on you, you are treated as having infinite SR against it. If a spell is chosen through the Filter feature of this class, the feature also applies to: versions of the spell where metamagic is applied, greater or superb versions of the spell, lesser or least versions of the spell, mass versions of the spell and the divine version of the spell, if any.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: Every second Arcane Breaker level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known) as if he had also gained a level in sorcerer.

Arcane Burn (Ex): Whenever a creature within line of sight of you starts casting a spell, you may attempt a Spellcraft check against a DC of 15 + spell level. If you correctly identify the spell, you may choose to deal xd4 untyped damage to the caster, where x is the level of the spell. Arcane Burn does NOT interrupt spellcasting and does not force the afflicted caster to make a concentration check.

Banish: Whenever you deal lethal damage with a melee or ranged weapon or a single target spell to a summoned creature, you can immediately cast Dispel Magic on it as a swift action without expending a spell slot.

Mindflay (Su): The Arcane Breaker can instill chaos in the arcane energies around him. All spellcasters in a sphere centered on him with a radius of 50 feet + 10 feet/class level, including himself, instantly fail all concentration checks. This ability can be closed and activated as a full round action.

Negation: You can use Dispel Magic as a spell-like ability at will, and learn 1 extra 3rd level spell in its place.

Arcane Comprehension (Ex): Add your Int mod to all your saves for the purpose of avoiding the effects of spells and spell-like abilities only.

Backlash (Ex): Increase the damage of Arcane Burn to xd6 (again, x is spell level). Also, if a spell that triggers Arcane Burn is then successfully counterspelled, the caster takes 1d6 damage to his casting stat.

Mental Fortress (Su): If one of your allies within 20 feet + 5 feet*wis mod would be subjected to an effect that allows a will save, you can roll your own save and substitute the result for his if it is higher. Can be used only once per round.

Mana Clash (Su/Sp): Whenever you successfully counterspell a spell, the caster will lose 1 other spell slot of the same level. In addition to this, you can use this feature to target spell slots directly, as such:

Select an opponent within medium range as a standard action. He shall make a will save against your Spellcraft check. If your result is higher, subtract his will save from your result and then remove one of his spell slots that has a level equal to the difference. If the difference is over his highest level spell slot, remove 1 of his higher level spell slots and remove 1 whose level is equal to the remainder. If the difference is more than double the highest level spell slot, simply remove the 2 highest level slots.

Break (Sp): Once per encounter, as a full round action, select 1 target within close range. He must make a will save against a DC of 10+class level+cha mod, a will save against your will save (Arcane Comprehension not applied) and a will save against a Spellcraft check. If he fails all of them, the target will become unable to use spells and spell-like abilities permanently. If he fails only a couple, reduce his CL for all purposes by 2 per failure.

[Yitzi]

The prerequisites seem a bit weird. Perhaps it would make more sense just to say "must be able to cast Dispel Magic spontaneously as an arcane spell" instead of the spell and class requirements.

Also, consider increasing the skill requirements to level 9 (as you're not getting in before 6 levels in sorcerer anyway, barring cheese which we could all do with less of) and maybe dropping Concentration from the list of prerequisites.

[Phosphate]

It's more flavor than functionality for them to have a level in sorcerer...but I guess it makes sense to limit the number of skills they need for entry. Changed.

[Phosphate]

Suggestions for making it more effective?

[BShammie]

Why does the class have a D8 for hit points, four skill points per level, and a good fortitude save if it was made for sorcerers?



Filter (Ex): At first level, and every odd level thereafter, select a spell that allows SR from the Sor/Wis spell list. You become unable to learn or cast that spell. However, if that spell is used on you, you are treated as having infinite SR against it. If a spell is chosen through the Filter feature of this class, the feature also applies to: versions of the spell where metamagic is applied, greater or superb versions of the spell, lesser or least versions of the spell, mass versions of the spell and the divine version of the spell, if any.

This seems a little weak. There are plenty of spells that bypass spell resistance, so only stopping a few that targets it doesn't seem that useful.
Maybe you should just give the class spell resistance in general, perhaps with a bonus against spells that the caster can cast spontaneously, instead of just making the character immune to five spells over the course of ten levels.


Spells per Day/Spells Known: Every second Arcane Breaker level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known) as if he had also gained a level in sorcerer.



Arcane Burn (Ex): Whenever a creature within line of sight of you starts casting a spell, you may attempt a Spellcraft check against a DC of 15 + spell level. If you correctly identify the spell, you may choose to deal xd4 untyped damage to the caster, where x is the level of the spell. Arcane Burn does NOT interrupt spellcasting and does not force the afflicted caster to make a concentration check.

I like this, but I feel like you should limit the amount of times the damage can be dealt. Perhaps once per class level every counter or day?


Banish: Whenever you deal lethal damage with a melee or ranged weapon or a single target spell to a summoned creature, you can immediately cast Dispel Magic on it as a swift action without expending a spell slot.

I think this should still use up a spell slot, maybe one of a level lower if you want to make it more useful.


Mindflay (Su): The Arcane Breaker can instill chaos in the arcane energies around him. All spellcasters in a sphere centered on him with a radius of 50 feet + 10 feet/class level, including himself, instantly fail all concentration checks. This ability can be closed and activated as a full round action.

See, this would be sort of useful if it didn't make you fail the concentration checks too.
At the moment it seems like it can be more of a hindrance.


Negation: You can use Dispel Magic as a spell-like ability at will, and learn 1 extra 3rd level spell in its place.

I think that being able to use it at will is a bit overpowered. Maybe limit it to a few times per day equal to your charisma modifier.


Arcane Comprehension (Ex): Add your Int mod to all your saves for the purpose of avoiding the effects of spells and spell-like abilities only.

See, this class was designed for sorcerers. I understand that full casters should be MAD but it would make more sense for this to be keyed off of charisma.


Backlash (Ex): Increase the damage of Arcane Burn to xd6 (again, x is spell level). Also, if a spell that triggers Arcane Burn is then successfully counterspelled, the caster takes 1d6 damage to his casting stat.

The damage increase is fine, but the damage to the casting stat seems a bit much. Maybe lower it 1d3?
This should still be limited to a few times per encounter or day.


Mental Fortress (Su): If one of your allies within 20 feet + 5 feet*wis mod would be subjected to an effect that allows a will save, you can roll your own save and substitute the result for his if it is higher. Can be used only once per round.

I like this, but it should be limited to a few times per day. Your Will modifier is going to be really high already, so I feel like rolling for the entire group can be a bit powerful.


Mana Clash (Su/Sp): Whenever you successfully counterspell a spell, the caster will lose 1 other spell slot of the same level.

I like this.


In addition to this, you can use this feature to target spell slots directly, as such:

Select an opponent within medium range as a standard action. He shall make a will save against your Spellcraft check. If your result is higher, subtract his will save from your result and then remove one of his spell slots that has a level equal to the difference. If the difference is over his highest level spell slot, remove 1 of his higher level spell slots and remove 1 whose level is equal to the remainder. If the difference is more than double the highest level spell slot, simply remove the 2 highest level slots.

But I don't like this. Your spellcraft will be much higher than his Will save at all levels.
By the time you get this, you'll be at least fourteenth level. That means you can have seventeen ranks in spellcraft. Lets give you a low Intelligence, say fourteen, and lets say you never bought any items to increase it or your spellcraft save. That means you get a bonus of nineteen on all spellcraft checks, and that is terribly unoptimized.
Your opponent is the same level, he has a Will modifier of nine. If we give him a Wisdom of 14, his bonus is 11. This is also without any optimization.
He needs to roll a nineteen to beat your score, and that's if you roll a ten. If you roll a twelve or higher, he's screwed. If he rolls below a ten, he still fails the roll.
This is a bit overpowered.


Break (Sp): Once per encounter, as a full round action, select 1 target within close range. He must make a will save against a DC of 10+class level+cha mod, a will save against your will save (Arcane Comprehension not applied) and a will save against a Spellcraft check. If he fails all of them, the target will become unable to use spells and spell-like abilities permanently. If he fails only a couple, reduce his CL for all purposes by 2 per failure.
This is completely overpowered. Just have it either temporarily reduce the caster's CL or temporarily make them unable to cast spells.


Suggestions for making it more effective?

It doesn't need to be more effective, in fact I believe it should be weakened quite a bit.

Also, by the time a character takes the last level in the class they will be at least level sixteen, but they will be casting like a level eleven character. That means that while the other casters are running around casting eighth level spells, you're stuck with fifth level ones.
The highest level spells your character can cast if he goes through all the levels in this class is seventh, so I honestly don't see why a character would go through all of this just to have a chance of permanently stopping another caster from using magic, when the other caster has access to magic like Time Stop or Genesis.

[Phosphate]

Why does the class have a D8 for hit points, four skill points per level, and a good fortitude save if it was made for sorcerers?

It has 4 skill points per level because it has more skills than the sorcerer (I usually base the number of skill points on the number of skills). It has a good fort because it's expected to save well against most spells. It has D8 because...no real reason, but I had to give it something to be able to at least have a chance to flee strong mundane characters, seeing that he's weaker against them than a pure sorcerer of the same ECL.


This seems a little weak. There are plenty of spells that bypass spell resistance, so only stopping a few that targets it doesn't seem that useful.
Maybe you should just give the class spell resistance in general, perhaps with a bonus against spells that the caster can cast spontaneously, instead of just making the character immune to five spells over the course of ten levels.

A SR seems unnecessary, since he will have insanely high saves anyway. This is just for making sure some of the nastier ones (yes there are plenty, but only a few are really dangerous) never get through ever. Remember that the filtered spells can be of ANY level, so you can choose only level 8 and 9 spells and call it a day.


I like this, but I feel like you should limit the amount of times the damage can be dealt. Perhaps once per class level every counter or day?

See, this is where we split. These features may seem stronger than the norm, yes, but remember that he is giving up a lot of caster levels to acquire them. Seems reasonable enough to me.


I think this should still use up a spell slot, maybe one of a level lower if you want to make it more useful.

Since he'll get to cast it for free anyway over 2 levels, I wouldn't really deem it necessary. Plus, Conjuration is overpowered anyway.


See, this would be sort of useful if it didn't make you fail the concentration checks too.
At the moment it seems like it can be more of a hindrance.

Then...use it only when necessary. It toggles for a reason.


I think that being able to use it at will is a bit overpowered. Maybe limit it to a few times per day equal to your charisma modifier.

That would be really underpowered for level 9+ (Dispel is level 3 after all). Plus, it's the entire point of the class.


See, this class was designed for sorcerers. I understand that full casters should be MAD but it would make more sense for this to be keyed off of charisma.

Arcane COMPREHENSION...but maybe you have a point...dunno.


The damage increase is fine, but the damage to the casting stat seems a bit much. Maybe lower it 1d3?
This should still be limited to a few times per encounter or day.

Yes, because Feeblemind, a spell that normal sorcerers can cast 4 times per day by this time but the Arcane Breaker cannot even learn, is not that important and its loss shouldn't be taken into account for the purpose of balancing this class's features.


I like this, but it should be limited to a few times per day. Your Will modifier is going to be really high already, so I feel like rolling for the entire group can be a bit powerful.

It's weak as it is. You can only help 1 ally per round, all others will have to protect themselves.


But I don't like this. Your spellcraft will be much higher than his Will save at all levels.

Yes, of course. The ability is meant to work all or almost all the time on targets of the same level as you.


This is completely overpowered. Just have it either temporarily reduce the caster's CL or temporarily make them unable to cast spells.

You're level 15, right? Full progression casters can INSTANT KILL at this level with a single save. This offers 3 individual saves, and it doesn't even deal damage :smallconfused:.

Seriously, this is a class made to kill casters. Why are you balancing it against the middle of the road (low tier 3) and not against casters?


Also, by the time a character takes the last level in the class they will be at least level sixteen, but they will be casting like a level eleven character. That means that while the other casters are running around casting eighth level spells, you're stuck with fifth level ones.
The highest level spells your character can cast if he goes through all the levels in this class is seventh, so I honestly don't see why a character would go through all of this just to have a chance of permanently stopping another caster from using magic, when the other caster has access to magic like Time Stop or Genesis.

Cause he can...counterspell Time Stop and Genesis if they're used right there? It depends on who you need to fight really, and depending on your build you can either follow the entire PrC, or take just 4-8 levels.

[BShammie]

There is some of what you wrote that I removed, but it was only things that I understood or agreed with that I wasn't sure how to comment on.
I hope you don't mind.

It has 4 skill points per level because it has more skills than the sorcerer (I usually base the number of skill points on the number of skills). It has a good fort because it's expected to save well against most spells. It has D8 because...no real reason, but I had to give it something to be able to at least have a chance to flee strong mundane characters, seeing that he's weaker against them than a pure sorcerer of the same ECL.

Hmm... okay, I can see your reasoning here. Sorcerers are starved for skill points anyway.


A SR seems unnecessary, since he will have insanely high saves anyway. This is just for making sure some of the nastier ones (yes there are plenty, but only a few are really dangerous) never get through ever. Remember that the filtered spells can be of ANY level, so you can choose only level 8 and 9 spells and call it a day.


Alright, but maybe you should let them rechoose the spells they blocked whenever they hit another odd level? This way the spells they choose to block they can expect to be hit by from time to time.



Then...use it only when necessary. It toggles for a reason.

Yeah, but you're only going to use it if you're fighting another caster within 90-150' or if your allies are pounding on a caster.
To make it a bit stronger, maybe it should make be so that whenever you successfully dispel the caster is forced to make a concentration check the next round to cast a spell.
This way you can choose who gets to be effected by the ability, and they still have to worry about their spells fizzling.


That would be really underpowered for level 9+ (Dispel is level 3 after all). Plus, it's the entire point of the class.

Okay, yeah. You get this when normal Sorcerers would get access to 5th level spells, but you only get 4th.


Yes, because Feeblemind, a spell that normal sorcerers can cast 4 times per day by this time but the Arcane Breaker cannot even learn, is not that important and its loss shouldn't be taken into account for the purpose of balancing this class's features.

I forgot this spell existed.
Well I don't have a problem with this feature anymore, sorry about that.



It's weak as it is. You can only help 1 ally per round, all others will have to protect themselves.

Woops sorry, I accidentally skipped over "If one..."


You're level 15, right? Full progression casters can INSTANT KILL at this level with a single save. This offers 3 individual saves, and it doesn't even deal damage :smallconfused:.

My problem with this is that it permanently removes a caster's spell ability to use magic. It can turn a level 20 wizard into a level 20 commoner in a pointy hat. Permanently.
The damage it does won't make a difference once you remove the character's ability to defend himself.


Cause he can...counterspell Time Stop and Genesis if they're used right there?

Genesis was only an example of a powerful spell, there isn't really a reason to cast it in combat. It creates a demi-plane.
The problem with counter spelling Time Stop with Dispel Magic is that the earliest Time Stop can be cast is level seventeen. That means that it has a DC of 28, which you'll only be able to reach if you roll an 18 or higher (Dispel Magic caps your caster level bonus to +10) (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm).
If you're up against a twentieth level caster who uses a ninth level spell then you have to beat a DC of 31, but the highest you'll be able to roll is 30.

Actually, you should add an ability that removes that +10 cap.

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Seriously, this is a class made to kill casters. Why are you balancing it against the middle of the road (low tier 3) and not against casters?

Sorry, I probably shouldn't post before I'm fully awake. :smallredface: