[3.5] How to Gish? advice needed!

[macdaddy]

I am starting at first level and want to create a ftr/MU type of character (i.e. a Gish). I want the character to be effective as early as possible, because we are starting at low levels, and am willing to sacrifice power at levels 12+ to be more effective levels 5-9.

The standard gish's are:
Ftr 2 / Wiz 4 (focused specialist transmuter) / Spell Sword 1 / Abj Champ 5 / Sacred Exorcist everything else

Pal 2 / Sor 4 / Spell Sword 1 / Abj Champ 5 / Sacred Exorcist everything else


So, the real difference is between starting as a FTR or as a PAL. However, I was thinking whether or not a duskblade would make a good starting point.

Dusk Blade 2 or 3 / Wizard 4 or 3 (focused specialist transmuter) / etc

Duskblade would give you combat casting feat for free, let you abuse knowledge devotion, so that even though you give up +2BAB, you would effectively be recovering it via your skill checks most of the time, and give you some additional minor, but useful spells (obscuring mist, true strike or swift expeditious retreat, and resist energy). You also have some extra spell slots (though just 1st level) to use with Arcane Strike.

The question is then whether or not duskblade 3 is warranted. You can then gain Shocking Grasp and channel it through your sword for a single attack. That minor ability kind of fades in usefulness pretty quickly... however, there are occasions where you will move, and get just one attack. Doing an attack, with shocking grasp, plus an arcane strike in conjunction with a max power attack would let you amp up the damage a little(extra 3d6, with bonus +3 to hit if they have metal armor). Note: I am assuming that you can only channel duskblade spells, not wizard spells... thus the focused specialist transmuter.

The 3rd duskblade level slows the wizard spell progression by a level, thus making it the same speed as a Pal 2/ Sorc 4. So I don't think that 3rd level is really worth it.

So: DuskBlade 2/ Wiz 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abj Champ 5/ sacred exorcist 8
=========================================
Feats would be something like:
1. Power Attack, Improved Initiative
2. (DuskBlade) Combat Casting
3. Knowledge Devotion, (Wizard) Martial Wizard - Combat Reflexes
6. Devotion (Law or Travel). Probably travel so I can move and make a full attack
9. Minor Shapeshift
12. Improved Familiar (Imp)
15. Robilars Gambit (?)
18. ??

Maybe move/drop things around for:
Extend Spell
Persist Spell
Practiced Spellcaster

I don't truly see the need for Arcane strike as it is so similar to the Abj Champ
ability, and I doubt my GM will let me burn through multiple spells to nova the damage. If he would, then that would be different.... and I'll have that discussion with him around 6/9/12th level.

Skills: Max out 4-5 of the knowledge skills so that I am getting +2 hit/dmg against 75% of all critters by level 3, then +3 by level 9


What do you think? Does a Duskblade 2/Wiz 4 as a base perform better than a Ftr 2 / Wiz 4? It is indeed probably weaker than a Pal 2 / Sorc 4 in the long run, but it will get spell levels a little earlier AND I won't have to be lawful good, thus spells like Alter Self can be used to fuller effect. (and yes, my DM is making Paladins be LG only, no paladin of freedom).


My stats are rolled and decent:
Str: 14, Con: 14, Dex: 14, I:18, W: 13, Chr: 11


What do you think?

[Keld Denar]

Other than the Bonus Feat, you really aren't getting a ton out of Dusk2. You get 2 bonus feats from Fighter2, and you get the amazing Cha to saves from Pal2, which, IMO, is worth 2 bonus feats. So, you are trading 2 bonus feats for 1 bonus feat, +3 will save, and 2 levels of Knowledges as class skills. I dunno if that is quite worth it.

Everything else looks pretty solid. If you wanted, you could even go Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx, a little weaker initially, but only loses 1 spellcaster level. Just a thought.

[skycycle blues]

Duskblade's level 3 ability applies to all spells you have, regardless of source, because it doesn't say Duskblade spells, just spells. If it only applied to Duskblade spells, it would specify. I think that makes Duskblade 3 worth taking.

[Suddo]

I plan on doing this in my next game, where I'm a PC:
Fighter 1
Wizard 1
Human Paragon 3
Wizard 3
Abjurant Champion 5
Eldritch Knight X

You lose 2 Levels of caster until 14 where you lose your 3rd. You have 9s at level 20, +2 to any attribute, and UMD (Human Paragon). I'm planning on playing it from Level 1 to death. If your DM will allow the Fighter 1 can give you the ability to cast in Light Armor (Complete Magic Alternate Class Feature) which is better than Spellsword in my opinion.

Though if you want to do your way I'd say only take 1 level of your melee character, unless you went with Paladin which the 2nd level is pretty awesome.

[Hirax]

Another classic is wizard6/swiftblade9/abjurant champ5, if it's of interest.

[Glimbur]

I plan on doing this in my next game, where I'm a PC:
Fighter 1
Wizard 1
Human Paragon 3
Wizard 3
Abjurant Champion 5
Eldritch Knight X

You lose 2 Levels of caster until 14 where you lose your 3rd. You have 9s at level 20, +2 to any attribute, and UMD (Human Paragon). I'm planning on playing it from Level 1 to death. If your DM will allow the Fighter 1 can give you the ability to cast in Light Armor (Complete Magic Alternate Class Feature) which is better than Spellsword in my opinion.

The problem with that ACF is that it is limited to spells of the same level as your fighter level +1. So, you can cast 1st and 2nd level spells freely in light armor, but as you want to get 9th level spells it is less than ideal. It will give you some AC the first few levels, and you just trade out proficiencies you didn't want anyway (unless I'm forgetting that you need them as a pre-req for something) so it can work.

[macdaddy]

If i go for focused specialist and exclude evocation, necromancy and enchantment, i won't have many touch spells available.

[Suddo]

The problem with that ACF is that it is limited to spells of the same level as your fighter level +1. So, you can cast 1st and 2nd level spells freely in light armor, but as you want to get 9th level spells it is less than ideal. It will give you some AC the first few levels, and you just trade out proficiencies you didn't want anyway (unless I'm forgetting that you need them as a pre-req for something) so it can work.

Woah I didn't read that part never mind about that feature.

[tiercel]

All arcane spellcasters have the ability to cast in light armor eventually, it's called mithral twilight chain shirt.

The twilight property reduces ASF by 10%, and can be found in MIC, PHBII, and BoED. Mithral reduces ASF by 10% (and improves Max Dex and reduces ACP if you care) and is Core.

A +1 twilight mithral shirt costs 5100gp, gives you a +5 armor bonus to AC, has no ASF or ACP (nonproficiency doesn't matter), and a Max Dex bonus of +6. Probably affordable by around 8th level, if you're going by standard WBL.

On the other hand, at 8th level mage armor lasts for 8 hours, gives you a +4 armor bonus that also works against incorporeal creatures, has no ASF, ACP, or Max Dex bonus, and only costs you a 1st level slot every day.

The upside of the twilight mithral shirt is that you can have magic vestment cast upon it to further upgrade its AC bonus, and add additional armor properties if you like. For that matter, a mithral buckler gives you a shield bonus for no ASF/ACP and low cost, if you are looking for something to further add special qualities and magic vestment to.

As always, double-check with your DM to make sure he doesn't have a "too cheesy" reaction to this; some DMs take exception to the fact that "can cast spells in light armor" ability isn't worth much past low levels.

[Coidzor]

Eh? Duskblade is full BAB, so I'm not following how Duskblade will lose you BAB by using it.

[Coidzor]

Eh? Duskblade is full BAB, so I'm not following how Duskblade will lose you BAB by using it.

[Randomguy]

Duskblade's level 3 ability applies to all spells you have, regardless of source, because it doesn't say Duskblade spells, just spells. If it only applied to Duskblade spells, it would specify. I think that makes Duskblade 3 worth taking.

Quoted for the truth. In the gish handbooks, duskblade is rated blue, or top, for the warrior side of the gish. You still get 9's with duskblade 3 and you can channel all your touch spells, which is the biggest advantage. The downside is that duskblades 3 gets you 1 less bonus feat than Fighter does and less hit points, but you get better class skills and some low level spell slots that are not only increased by your int mod but that are also doubled along with your wizard spells should you put on a ring of wizardry.