Wizard + Mithril Buckler = any reason not to? [Archive]

AmberVael

2012-02-16, 01:44 PM

Twilight can be found in the Magic Item Compendium.

Thistledown is not only padded armor, but something that can be added to most metal armors, reducing spell failure by 5%. It can be found in Races of the Wild.

You may also be interested in the Feycraft and Githcraft item templates in the Dungeon Master's Guide II, both of which can further reduce spell failure by 5%.

Dimers

2012-02-16, 01:45 PM

"Twilight" is from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's -10% ASF for +1 enhancement cost.

ericgrau

2012-02-16, 01:47 PM

Mainly the loss of a free casting hand. But other than that, go for it. And while you can't use the buckler hand for casting, you can use it to hold things to leave your other hand free to cast.

:smallconfused:
I don't disagree that mithral bucklers are an awesome idea for arcane casters, but I'm pretty sure that consuming WBL is the antithesis of "free".
In D&D squeezing in viable options like fitting actions into a round and fitting things on the body tend to be much more important costs than little things like a thousand coins. If it was 5,000 or more I might agree at mid levels, but 2,000 at mid to high levels is no big deal and the only real consideration is the hand it takes up (which is minor for the reason above).

The other consideration is that it's a small benefit, since it's hard for casters to keep up on AC anyway. But 2 or more for cheap is still something. Or special shield enchantments are snazzy. Maybe twilight mithril caster's shield on a light shield to always have your favorite scroll hand.

Douglas

2012-02-16, 01:47 PM

Twilight can be found in the Magic Item Compendium.

"Twilight" is from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's -10% ASF for +1 enhancement cost.
It is also in PHB2, and it's exactly the same in all three places.

dextercorvia

2012-02-16, 01:53 PM

It sounds like the reason not to, is that a Feycraft Buckler offers the same benefit for a fraction of the price.

Jeraa

2012-02-16, 01:54 PM

Mainly the loss of a free casting hand. But other than that, go for it. And while you can't use the buckler hand for casting, you can use it to hold other things to leave your other hand free to cast.

A buckler is strapped to the arm, not held in the hand. You won't lose that hand for casting at all.

ericgrau

2012-02-16, 02:05 PM

I can't seem to find the rule one way or the other but I think you need the whole arm to make hand gestures, not just the fingers, and so it must be unencumbered.

Or else how would body armor like a chain shirt or breast plate affect casting even a little bit?

Brock Samson

2012-02-16, 02:08 PM

ericgrau

2012-02-16, 02:10 PM

Even with mithril it's still a 2.5 lb. weight strapped to your arm when you're trying to make complex and precise flowing gestures. That's far worse than, say, full plate, or breast plate at minimum. At least the armor smith balances the armor.

Jeraa

2012-02-16, 02:11 PM

There is no such rule. Why give shields an ASF chance if they prevent casting in the first place?

PHB says you have to have the hand free, that is all.

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

From the FAQ. Specifically for clerics, but the same would apply to any spellcaster.

Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand.

You can cast just fine with a buckler on your arm. (Well, you do have a 5% ASF chance, but mithral negates that.)

ericgrau

2012-02-16, 02:14 PM

A shield in the off hand still causes ASF in the main hand though. Didn't know about that FAQ, but there's still no chance in hades you could freely wave around a hand with a big ol' light or heavy shield strapped to it, and even the FAQ entry that allows bucklers seems to say this. EDIT: Actually it says it specifically:

The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting

The FAQ seems to clarify what "gesture freely" means for casting for shields while the SRD only clarifies it for wielding a weapon or other items. The FAQ continues that you could still use a light shield hand to hold another item to free up your remaining hand for casting.

Than

2012-02-16, 02:22 PM

Your arm's not really encumbered though. With a buckler you can still do EVERYTHING you could do without a buckler.

If Twilight's in the PH2 that's perfect!

So, if I get a mithril twilight something, and have a Dex Mod of +3 (+4 or 5 depending upon Enhancement bonuses) what armor do I want to wear?

Per the PHB (pg 124) you still take a -1 to attack with two handed or off handed weapons "due to the extra weight on your arm" while wearing a buckler. The ACP also translates in a penalty to hit for being non-proficient but the mithral takes care of that for our wizard example here. As long as s/he's not trying to hit, touch, ranged touch anything with the off hand then there is no penalty. Otherwise it's -1.

Jeraa

2012-02-16, 02:24 PM

It says you can't you the hand holding a light shield to cast spells. But it also says you can use the same arm a buckler is on to cast spells.

But the small part I quoted could be misleading. Here is the full entry:

My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar to cast spells. Is he right?
Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (PH 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon.

Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity).

If a cleric (or anyone else) wielding a weapon in one hand (rendering it useless to cast spells) can still cast spells with a buckler on the other arm, then bucklers do not prevent casting with that arm.

ericgrau

2012-02-16, 02:32 PM

Per the PHB (pg 124) you still take a -1 to attack with two handed or off handed weapons "due to the extra weight on your arm" while wearing a buckler. The ACP also translates in a penalty to hit for being non-proficient but the mithral takes care of that for our wizard example here. As long as s/he's not trying to hit, touch, ranged touch anything with the off hand then there is no penalty. Otherwise it's -1.

This is why I assumed you could not "gesture freely" with a buckler but apparently the FAQ disagrees. Yet the logic does not stem from having a hand free since a light shield also leaves a hand free and it prevents casting.

Jeraa

2012-02-16, 02:37 PM

A light shield does not leave your hand completely free. You can still use that hand to do some limited stuff, but its not totally free, as you are still holding the light shield with that hand.

You can't use the hand holding a light shield to wield a weapon, for example.

Jack_Simth

2012-02-16, 06:33 PM

Bucklers normally only have a 5% arcane spell failure rate, correct? (If I'm wrong and it's higher ignore everything).

If you get a Mithril buckler, that's no chance of spell failure. So you have every reason to have one, correct? Once you do then you can even start putting fun little shield-enchantment-goodies on it too!
Yes and no.

Yes, it's a good idea on most wizards. However due to the existence of the Monk's Belt (which doesn't function with any shield), it is sometimes better to have a Monk's Belt than it is to have a +X Mithral buckler.

Tr011

2012-02-16, 06:39 PM

Bucklers normally only have a 5% arcane spell failure rate, correct? (If I'm wrong and it's higher ignore everything).

If you get a Mithril buckler, that's no chance of spell failure. So you have every reason to have one, correct? Once you do then you can even start putting fun little shield-enchantment-goodies on it too!

If you wanted your char to be as good as possible, there wouldn't be any reason not to get that buckler. But then you wouldn't play a wizard, you'd play PunPun.
So there are reasons why you don't always take "what's best" for your char.

For me, I dislike the 0815 wizard-in-mithral so I wear a robe and no shield at all.

Tr011

2012-02-16, 06:41 PM

Bucklers normally only have a 5% arcane spell failure rate, correct? (If I'm wrong and it's higher ignore everything).

If you get a Mithril buckler, that's no chance of spell failure. So you have every reason to have one, correct? Once you do then you can even start putting fun little shield-enchantment-goodies on it too!

If you wanted your char to be as good as possible, there wouldn't be any reason not to get that buckler. But then you wouldn't play a wizard, you'd play PunPun.
So there are reasons why you don't always take "what's best" for your char.

For me, I dislike the 0815 wizard-in-mithral so I wear a robe and no shield at all.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-16, 06:41 PM

It is also in PHB2, and it's exactly the same in all three places.

It's also in Explorer's Guide to Eberron. WotC likes to reuse a lot of stuff when it's relevant (in Eberron, the best place to explore is the long-ruined giant civilization where giants were arcane casters taught by the dragons).

FMArthur

2012-02-16, 07:37 PM

I cast Mage Armor or Luminous Armor in the morning and don't bother shopping for lots of AC items because monsters are good at hitting things and I like to be good at not getting attacked.

I guess I'll note this one down anyway. How much does this thistledown buckler cost?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-02-16, 07:41 PM

On the subject of armored casters, consider the following:

Mithral (DMG): -10% ASF, ACP reduced by 3, automatically considered masterwork (cannot add masterwork again). Price varies: +1,000 gp (light armor and all shields), +4,000 gp (medium armor), +9,000 gp (heavy armor).

Masterwork (PHB): ACP reduced by 1. +150 gp (armor and shields).

Thistledown Suit (RotW): -5% ASF, ACP increased by 1; can only be added to chain shirt and any medium or heavy armor normally made from metal. +250 gp.

Twilight enchantment (PH2, BoED, MIC, etc.): -10% ASF. +1 added to the enhancement bonus to determine the item's price.

Nonproficient (PHB): ACP applies to all attack rolls and Str- and Dex-based ability checks and skill checks (including initiative, grapple, trip, bull rush, overrun, disarm, sunder, etc.). Note that if the ACP already applies to a given skill, it will be applied a second time for nonproficiency.

That gives you the following items:

+1 Twilight Mithral Breastplate plus Thistledown Suit: 8,450 gp; +6 armor bonus; +5 max Dex; -2 ACP; 0% ASF; light armor proficiency.

+1 Twilight Mithral Shirt: 5,100 gp; +5 armor bonus; +6 max Dex; 0 ACP; 0% ASF; light armor proficiency (no drawback for wearing it nonproficient).

+1 Twilight Mithral Full Plate plus Thistledown Suit: 14,750 gp; +9 armor bonus; +3 max Dex; -4 ACP; 10% ASF; medium armor proficiency. Worth mentioning due to a Spellsword dip negating the ASF.

And finally,
Luminous Armor (BoED): 2nd level Abjuration; 1 hour/level duration; +5 armor bonus; 0 ACP, 0% ASF, consdiered unarmored and can benefit from Monk AC bonus; opponents who use vision take a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls against you; sheds light equivalent to a Daylight spell and cancels darkness effects of equal and lower level (if the brightness is cancelled by a higher level darkness effect, the AC bonus still functions).

Greater Luminous Armor (BoED): 4th level Abjuration; as above, but +8 armor bonus.

AmberVael

2012-02-16, 07:45 PM

I guess I'll note this one down anyway. How much does this thistledown buckler cost?

Thistledown does not apply to bucklers. It can only be applied to "any armor that normally incorporates an underlying layer of quilted fabric." It goes on to specify that that means chain shirts, and all medium and heavy metal armors.

You can, however, have a feycraft buckler, which costs 515 gold (masterwork not needed or included), or if you want to be fancy, you can make it githcraft instead for an extra 100 (feycraft has a penalty to hardness, which githcraft doesn't, and githcraft ALSO applies a +1 bonus to concentration, which is cool).

Edit: If you apply both Feycraft and Githcraft to +1 Twilight Mithral Fullplate with Thistledown, you can reduce its spell failure to 0%. I feel like there is a rule that says you can only have one item template, but upon rechecking I didn't see one- and while incredibly convoluted, you can satisfy the requirement for both templates at the same time. It just takes a little work.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-16, 07:55 PM

Edit: If you apply both Feycraft and Githcraft to +1 Twilight Mithral Fullplate with Thistledown, you can reduce its spell failure to 0%. I feel like there is a rule that says you can only have one item template, but upon rechecking I didn't see one- and while incredibly convoluted, you can satisfy the requirement for both templates at the same time. It just takes a little work.

Maybe there used to be a sage who wanted MOAR ARMOR CLASS, so he learned the techniques of the gith gish and the fey, as well as applying thistledown, twilight, and mithral. Then he taught the techniques to others.

AmberVael

2012-02-16, 07:59 PM

Maybe there used to be a sage who wanted MOAR ARMOR CLASS, so he learned the techniques of the gith gish and the fey, as well as applying thistledown, twilight, and mithral. Then he taught the techniques to others.

Actually, the requirement for Githcraft is that you have to be a githyanki, and what is more, you have to be on the astral plane. And while non-fey can make feycraft armor, they have to be guided by and magically controlled by fey.

So when you're talking about +1 Twilight Mithral Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Full Plate, you're talking about armor forged from the rare metal mithral in an unpopulated portion of the astral plane by a githyanki mentally dominated by a fey, its padding stitched with special elven silk, then enchanted by a wizard.

So, possible? Yes. Convoluted? Incredibly.

Siosilvar

2012-02-16, 08:04 PM

-snip-
So, possible? Yes. Convoluted? Incredibly.

Half-fey githyanki wizard covers three of the four. The mithril and elven silk is a simple pirate raid away, which githyanki are famous for.

Not as convoluted, but still unlikely. Given that the Astral Plane is timeless, you're bound to get a half-fey gith that wants to do this eventually if gith reproduce, and then they can live essentially forever (until something powerful takes note and crushes them like a flea). It could be a campaign plot point - but you'll need to go to the Astral and fight a full gith ship to get a suit or three.

FMArthur

2012-02-16, 08:10 PM

Some kinds fey are basically sadistic by nature. It's unlikely but not unreasonable that they might enjoy putting gith back into mental slavery, or be okay with it so that they can make the most perfect armor ever.

Definitely something the PCs would have to be arranging themselves because it's hard to see a setting come with it already, but they could arrange it and it would probably last.

Keld Denar

2012-02-16, 08:41 PM

A wizard did it...the same reason we have owlbears.

Applied eugenics and just about every interpretation of the phrase "Dominate Monster" possible.

ericgrau

2012-02-16, 11:54 PM

This is cheesy and I wouldn't attempt it or allow it, but as long as you can cast with your buckler hand what about dual mithril bucklers with different shield enchantments on each? Seems RAW I think.

Eisenfavl

2012-02-17, 12:10 AM

I've got an appropriate quote for this sort of thing:

On an arcane mage who is lacking in AC I would suggest feycrafted githcrafted thistledown caster armour segmented reinforced lightweight mithral twilight half weight +1 Thaalud Stone Armour for + 13 AC for about 30 000 or slightly higher gp at no ACF and only -4 or something ACP, which counts as light armour even without mithral being considered.

Of course, polymorph usually has a higher AC cap.

Venger

2012-02-17, 03:12 AM

I've got an appropriate quote for this sort of thing:

Of course, polymorph usually has a higher AC cap.
wow! what on earth is half that stuff? since AC's kind of a fool's errand unless you spec for it, I don't know half those terms. do you have a source/explanation for caster armour segmented reinforced lightweight half weight +1 Thaalud Stone Armour? the other stuff I've heard of.

does the wild enhancement let you keep AC when polymorphed, or just wild shaped? because then you wouldn't have to choose

Feytalist

2012-02-17, 03:17 AM

I've got an appropriate quote for this sort of thing:

And I've got an appropriate rebuttal for that sort of thing:

Sure, if you don't mind being horrifically murdered by your DM.

Tr011

2012-02-17, 03:19 AM

don't bother shopping for lots of AC items

So when you're talking about +1 Twilight Mithral Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Full Plate

Guys, guys. A shield or armor for a wizard is not for AC. If you want AC, get class features+low level spells. You want shield/armor for those great utility you can get in there. Protection from Death effects is quiet cheap. Fortification is an option to not get insta-killed by sneaky guys.
You can also get those nice crystals from MiC (Deflect Arrows? +saves and a reroll on mind-affecting? Linked?)

Eisenfavl

2012-02-17, 03:24 AM

wow! what on earth is half that stuff? since AC's kind of a fool's errand unless you spec for it, I don't know half those terms. do you have a source/explanation for caster armour segmented reinforced lightweight half weight +1 Thaalud Stone Armour? the other stuff I've heard of.

does the wild enhancement let you keep AC when polymorphed, or just wild shaped? because then you wouldn't have to choose

Wild is wild shape only.
Caster armour, segmented and reinforced are from one of the dragon magazines, Thaluud Stone Armour from Artronach Empire of Shade or something along those lines,Thistdown from ROW, twilight is in BOED/MIC, half weight from DOTU or just Underdark, I forget, and feycrafted + githcrafted are from DMGII.

Also I know AC doesn't matter. That's like, half the point of the armour: its my way of mocking mundanes as I can have everything they can and so much.

Feytalist

2012-02-17, 03:30 AM

Wild is wild shape only.

Beastskin is both, as far as I recall. I can't remember the restrictions on it though, and it might be 3.0 material.

AmberVael

2012-02-17, 08:14 AM

Guys, guys. A shield or armor for a wizard is not for AC. If you want AC, get class features+low level spells. You want shield/armor for those great utility you can get in there. Protection from Death effects is quiet cheap. Fortification is an option to not get insta-killed by sneaky guys.
You can also get those nice crystals from MiC (Deflect Arrows? +saves and a reroll on mind-affecting? Linked?)

I never said armor for a wizard was for AC. I know it's suboptimal. But the point was making full plate with no spell failure, not making the best armor choice.

Sometimes I want to put my mind to the task of making superoptimal wizard man- other times, I want to use it making hilariously convoluted full plate with no spell failure.

Brock Samson

2012-02-17, 10:05 AM

I always dislike this "armor doesn't matter" talk. I've known a lot of good PCs who've been killed because their AC was a point or two too low.

Consider that one of reoccurring villains in our campaign is a devil (or demon?), and has constant True Seeing and Teleport at will. She likes to port in and raise up some Bearded Devils and hellhounds and such. I've tried Mirror Image and they all get burned in one round by any AOE attack. Displace = no, True Seeing. AC DOES matter when you've level 7, because when you've exhausted your 3 level 3 spells for the day, and your 3 or 4 2nd level spells, and they're still attacking, you WANT to have a decent AC.

Also, I like how someone made a reference to a wizard having a mithril buckler being equivalant to trying to get to PUN-PUN hood. That comment being followed by people talking about Feycraft Girthcraft thistledown stuff. I'm not the most optimized character ever, I just would like to not get hit in the face with something big and pointy.

Tr011

2012-02-17, 10:06 AM

I never said armor for a wizard was for AC. I know it's suboptimal. But the point was making full plate with no spell failure, not making the best armor choice.

Sometimes I want to put my mind to the task of making superoptimal wizard man- other times, I want to use it making hilariously convoluted full plate with no spell failure.

kk misunderstood u then xD

Fun fact: A wizard with Abjurant Champion 5 (easy to qualify and very good PrC) and Paranostic Apostle 1 (auto-qualify for any wizard, very decend PrC) can cast any mage-armor-style spell with additional +7 to the AC value.

Brock Samson

2012-02-17, 10:10 AM

But seriously: two mithril bucklers for double the armor-special property-ness? Is this legit? Obviously if your DM doesn't throw a book at your head.

dextercorvia

2012-02-17, 10:16 AM

I always dislike this "armor doesn't matter" talk. I've known a lot of good PCs who've been killed because their AC was a point or two too low.

It's not that AC doesn't matter. It's that a Feycraft Buckler is only a point of shield bonus. If you are playing a wizard, then you can cast shield with one of your remaining 1st level slots for a +4. The main benefit at level 7 of the buckler, over the spell, is that it is always on. Frankly, it is worth it for the money, unless you can't do the armor thing. It is also nice that it can be enchanted with special properties, and do the Magic Vestment thing later on for an (almost) always on better shield bonus.

Brock Samson

2012-02-17, 11:21 AM

Really sucks that Magic Vestment is a Cleric only spell.... *boo*

dextercorvia

2012-02-17, 11:34 AM

Really sucks that Magic Vestment is a Cleric only spell.... *boo*

That's why you want to be a team player. I'll GMW you if you MV me...

Hiro Protagonest

2012-02-17, 11:55 AM

umbergod

2012-02-17, 11:58 AM

And the armor doesn't matter much either. Mage Armor, Greater Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, Greater Luminous Armor.

thats basically what he was saying i believe. generally a wizard/sorcerer using armor/buckler is doing it for the special enchants you can have on them, and no the AC

Jeraa

2012-02-17, 12:05 PM

But seriously: two mithril bucklers for double the armor-special property-ness? Is this legit? Obviously if your DM doesn't throw a book at your head.

Yes, is is RAW legal. The enhancement bonuses won't stack, of course, but the special properties would (Assuming they were different abilities). Just like with magical armor and Bracers of Armor.

dextercorvia

2012-02-17, 12:14 PM

And the armor doesn't matter much either. Mage Armor, Greater Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, Greater Luminous Armor.

Do note that a Mithral Shadowed Fortified Buckler enhanced with Magic Vestment stacks with everything you just said. Are you doing it all for the AC? No, but since you can get extra AC out of it, why not?

Brock Samson

2012-02-17, 12:20 PM

Isn't Fortification a crazy-expensive enhancement? I'd be better of Heart of X'ing it.

Venger

2012-02-17, 12:47 PM

Isn't Fortification a crazy-expensive enhancement? I'd be better of Heart of X'ing it.

or going necropolitan

Brock Samson

2012-02-17, 01:06 PM

Yeah, because how many DMs do YOU know that are ok with a Necropolitan PC? (Not one of mine)

ericgrau

2012-02-17, 01:16 PM

It's not that AC doesn't matter. It's that a Feycraft Buckler is only a point of shield bonus. If you are playing a wizard, then you can cast shield with one of your remaining 1st level slots for a +4. The main benefit at level 7 of the buckler, over the spell, is that it is always on. Frankly, it is worth it for the money, unless you can't do the armor thing. It is also nice that it can be enchanted with special properties, and do the Magic Vestment thing later on for an (almost) always on better shield bonus.
Spending a round on anything is tremendously expensive. I'd rather spend the 26k for +6 shield AC (or 10k for +4). Or really on a wizard I'd never cast shield nor focus too much on armor. Unless you're pulling cheesy AC tricks in which case another 4-6 shield AC is a nice step towards a silly AC. And then your second shield has special ability enchants instead.

Because crits are uncommon fortification is actually worse on average than if you just get the equivalent AC instead. And that's not saying much: I wouldn't get either on a wizard. Unless my foes are an army of scythe wielders (still not worth it on average, but 1 lucky roll kills you at x4), I'd rather find some way to have extra HP to absorb the occasional crit and be better defended against both crits and all other blows in general. For example the heartening shield enchant (MiC) gives temp HP as an immediate action, and empowered false life can put temp HP up all day.

dextercorvia

2012-02-17, 01:43 PM

I used Fortification, only because it was given earlier. The point is that you get a Mithral buckler to open up the shield slot for special properties. If you can squeeze some extra AC out of it, that's great, too.

The level 7 guy I was responding to was out of offensive actions, and probably doesn't have 10K to spend on a +4AC from a shield.

Brock Samson

2012-02-17, 02:54 PM

Sure, crits aren't terribly common. But don't forget about sneak attacks, which can hurt like the dickens if you're surprised (or just flanked)

ericgrau

2012-02-17, 05:29 PM

At level 7 you'd be using a +1 or +2 shield, naturally. Higher level higher bonus.

How common rogues are depends on the campaign; if they are very common then that's the one legitimate use of fortification. Otherwise you're more likely to be ambushed be a high strength bashing foe and you're better off working on general defense (be it AC if you really must, temp HP, or whatever). Even the rare sneak attack won't take you down in one hit as the damage scales slower than wizard HP. Especially if you have temp HP to stop a wider variety of attacks.

Tyndmyr

2012-02-17, 05:46 PM

Bucklers normally only have a 5% arcane spell failure rate, correct? (If I'm wrong and it's higher ignore everything).

If you get a Mithril buckler, that's no chance of spell failure. So you have every reason to have one, correct? Once you do then you can even start putting fun little shield-enchantment-goodies on it too!

I don't. Why?

Because Living Metal Dastana's do the same thing, but cost a whopping 750 gold.

I've tried Mirror Image and they all get burned in one round by any AOE attack.

I agree that armor is nice, but that's not how Mirror Image works. It doesn't give a crap about AOE attacks.

dextercorvia

2012-02-17, 06:03 PM

I don't. Why?

Because Living Metal Dastana's do the same thing, but cost a whopping 750 gold.

Again, you can have both. Where is Living Metal?

Brock Samson

2012-02-18, 12:43 AM

How do AOE attacks not destroy your Mirror Images??? Any damage = no more image.

Daisuke1133

2012-02-18, 12:51 AM

Not every AoE spell does damage, so those certainly don't do anything to dispel said illusion.

dextercorvia

2012-02-18, 10:20 AM

How do AOE attacks not destroy your Mirror Images??? Any damage = no more image.

No. Only a successful attack. It even says that they seem to react normally to a Fireball, which wouldn't be the case if it destroyed the images.

Douglas

2012-02-18, 11:23 AM

How do AOE attacks not destroy your Mirror Images??? Any damage = no more image.
That's not what the spell's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) says. The actual rules quote is:

Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

It's not entirely clear what it means by "successful attack", but area spells are obviously not included. Multi-target spells such as Magic Missile might clear images, but it's debatable.

ericgrau

2012-02-18, 01:43 PM

Multi-target spells take out images. (1) They're not area spells and they are individual attacks. (2) The FAQ confirms that magic missile is good for taking out multiple images. Another easy way is full attacks. Especially if one of your attacks hit you focus the remaining low attack bonus attacks on images since images have low AC. For that matter images die fast in general since they're so easy to hit.

I prefer defenses that are up all day rather than ones that blow a precious combat round. I reserve 1 spell for buffs in case I get a buffing round and it's more likely to be something better than mirror image like haste. A mithril buckler could be one of those all day defenses. It's not much but the price is right. And it's really hard to reach the point where AC is actually fully useless; you need to be something like 10 points behind the curve before foes are hitting on a 2 both before and after your +1. Thus 4 shield AC for 10k is already outdoing, say, a 20k cloak of minor displacement for 20% and it saves your cloak slot. It takes a little math to see why but at 5 points above useless AC it only takes another 3 shield AC for 5k to match 20%. Or at high levels you can get both items. I just did some rough numbers and it takes about character level 14 before you're better off with the cloak (or both items), not considering the body slot used.