OOTS #837 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Probably Kickstarter update either very late tonight or early tomorrow.

[super dark33]

hehehe....
Windy.....

[The Guardian]

Haha. Anyway the wind is probably magical so it wouldn't have worked.

[Gift Jeraff]

I was wondering which it was. :smalltongue:

[Bastian]

The Giant is on a roll! Yippi-kay-yay!

[Goosefeather]

I think I'm in love with Vaarsuvius.

[Spacewolf]

Looks like Mr. Scruffy has got a new kick ass ride. Wonder if V is just trying to make him useful until the opportunity to supplant their current ranger arises

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[fishguy]

Once again the utility caster, (aka the Bard) is the go to guy. Poor Roy.

[Laws of Chaos]

Lol it's the WINDY canyon, NOT the WINDY Canyon!

And Double LOL Belkar

[SweetBB]

LOL. He had to ask!

[wzeller]

"Heteronym" has always been one of my favorite words, but I almost never see it used by anybody. Extra credit points for good vocabulary in a webcomic! :)

[Timeless Error]

And Elan continues on his "actually-contributing" success streak!

[teratorn]

Hey look, Elan is useful!

[Dr._Demento]

THE BARD SONG IS BACK!

It brings a tear to my eye...

[Syklone]

Heheh. Double burn!

[ThePhantasm]

"No signal."

That canyon is both windy and windy. :smalltongue:

[ScrapperTBP]

Some good puns there. Nice one Giant. Quick updates as well. They are always welcome :smalltongue:
Great as always

[AutomatedTeller]

a fine example of the giant at work!!

5 jokes, plus the sight gag of the cat on kobold

[rewinn]

And so we're back to canyon-crawlin' fools ...

... except this time they've got a cat riding a double-barrelled kobold. All those levels and it comes to this!

[Saeyan]

"Heteronym" has always been one of my favorite words, but I almost never see it used by anybody. Extra credit points for good vocabulary in a webcomic! :)
And double points for none of the characters ever needing those words to be defined.

My memory fails me. Do Elan's songs actually do anything?

[Grimly Feendish]

What's that scarf YukYuK is wearing?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Aaaaand so much for that planning.

[Kymme]

Two words.
PRETTY AWESOME

[Yuki Akuma]

My memory fails me. Do Elan's songs actually do anything?

He's using his Bard class ability "Inspire Competence". It provides a +2 bonus to skill checks (like Search).

[Grimly Feendish]

What's that scarf YukYuK is wearing?

Oh, sorry its the carpet - thought it might be a sick bag or something.

[Pigkappa]

English is not my main language. Will anyone please explain me the windy/windy thing? How is the pronunciation different?

[Yuki Akuma]

English is not my main language. Will anyone please explain me the windy/windy thing? How is the pronunciation different?

"Windy" (pronounced like 'Win D") means "has lots of wind". That is, moving air.

"Windy" (pronounced like "Whine D") means "winds a lot". That is, it has lots of curves.

(Naturally your accent may make the pronunciations different - I speak with a southern English accent, for reference.)

[ThePhantasm]

English is not my main language. Will anyone please explain me the windy/windy thing? How is the pronunciation different?

One has a long i sound, which is pronounced like EYE (so wIndy is curvy, not straight) and the other has a short i sound, like in the word IN or WIN (so WINdy is full of a strong breeze).

If you still don't understand (accents differ) then it simply means the two words are spelled the same, but sound different. Which is all you really need to know to understand the strip.

[t209]

I think Red Cloak will not have his Planar Ally today since divination is blocked.
(I don't know about D&D Spells except the one that influenced the spells in Skyrim, like Oakflesh, Turn Undead, and Fireball)
What count as divination?

[Dr._Demento]

Also, I hope the title joke is referring to "Moria" even though I'm not sure if that particular reference is up Rich's alley.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Love, Love, Love; Love the daily posting Kickstarter Bonus! :smallbiggrin:

(Come on, you knew SOMEBODY was going to say it!)

[Psyren]

English is not my main language. Will anyone please explain me the windy/windy thing? How is the pronunciation different?

Roy's Wind = moving air, rhymes with "grinned."
Durkon's Wind = twisting/turning, rhymes with "grind"

Should we start statting Girard, since he can apparently block divinations?

[Kancsar]

hoorah for bard songs. better yet, Elan should roll for Bardic knowledge to suggest marking their trail.

[hrak]

I cant express the joy daily comic updates bring, thank you Giant!

PS, making high level PCs search by hand was always frustrating for me to, I feel your pain Roy. But as the man who lives by "if you want it done right, do it your self" he should look into putting those OP scores to better use.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think Red Cloak will not have his Planar Ally today since divination is blocked.
(I don't know about D&D Spells except the one that influenced the spells in Skyrim, like Oakflesh, Turn Undead, and Fireball)
What count as divination?

What counts as divination? Any spell in the Divination school. Spells for sensing things far away, getting answers to questions, or perceiving things your regular senses can't.

Planar Ally is Conjuration.

[MesiDoomstalker]

English is not my main language. Will anyone please explain me the windy/windy thing? How is the pronunciation different?

Windy (prounced Win-Dee) describes something as having lots of strong winds (the weather condition). Windy (prounced Whine-Dee) describes something as having many turns and curves, like a road along a coast line.

[Saeyan]

Also, I hope the title joke is referring to "Moria" even though I'm not sure if that particular reference is up Rich's alley.

Why would it refer to Moria? I only remember 'speak, friend and enter'.
It's a reference to Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind.

[t209]

What counts as divination? Any spell in the Divination school. Spells for sensing things far away, getting answers to questions, or perceiving things your regular senses can't.

Planar Ally is Conjuration.

(And I'm gonna stop answering everyone's questions now.)

How about sending or Implosion?
edit: Implosion is destruction.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Yay, Elan is back! :smallbiggrin:

A quick not for V, shouldn't be "homonyms" the word he was looking for and not "heteronyms"? :smallwink:

EDIT: forget it, it looks that english has two words with opposite etimology that however mean the same...

[Yuki Akuma]

How about sending or Implosion?
edit: Implosion is destruction.

Sending is Evocation (for... some reason), which is the same school as Implosion.

You could go here to find out more, if you want. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm) :smallwink:

[Dr._Demento]

Why would it refer to Moria? I only remember 'speak, friend and enter'.
It's a reference to Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind.

Alas, I figured it would not be so...

I was speaking of this: They Call the Wind Moriah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkmvwCpcZlM)

[brionl]

Also, I hope the title joke is referring to "Moria" even though I'm not sure if that particular reference is up Rich's alley.

Away out here they got a name
For rain and wind and fire
The rain is Tess, the fire Joe,
And they call the wind Moria

Moria blows the elf around
And sends the dwarves a’flyin’
Moria makes the canyon sound
Like folks were down there dying

[SpaceBadger]

Windy Windy Canyon! Woot!

Thanks, Giant.

[137beth]

So Elan has a nearly useless +2 to search...and the tier 1 casters have COMPLETELY useless spells.

[Giftzwerg76]

Elan's inspiring Song... Brings back memories.

It just goes to show how well The Giant handles running gags. Well played, Sir.

[Goosefeather]

Yay, Elan is back! :smallbiggrin:

A quick not for V, shouldn't be "homonyms" the word he was looking for and not "heteronyms"? :smallwink:

EDIT: forget it, it looks that english has two words with opposite etimology that however mean the same...

Homonym and heteronym do not mean the same, though both are homographs.

Here's (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Homograph_homophone_venn_diagram.svg)a handy Venn diagram!

[wzeller]

Yay, Elan is back! :smallbiggrin:

A quick not for V, shouldn't be "homonyms" the word he was looking for and not "heteronyms"? :smallwink:

EDIT: forget it, it looks that english has two words with opposite etimology that however mean the same...

No, they don't mean the same thing.

Homonyms sound the same, but are spelled differently: Ad/add, air/err, cent/scent, to/too/two, there/their/they're, etc.

Heteronyms sound different, but are spelled the same: Windy/windy, content/content, incense/incense.

[Sith_Happens]

Roy: Screw the rules, we have mid level spells!

Rich: Lol, nice try.

[skaddix]

Well at leas team evil and the linear guild will get slowed down.

[AutomatedTeller]

Here's a question - V's doing something magic in panel 2... any idea what it is?

[Dr._Demento]

Here's a question - V's doing something magic in panel 2... any idea what it is?

From Roy's quote earlier in the panel, probably readying a spell.

[Saeyan]

I just thought of something. Would it stupid to wait for Durkon to prepare the wind spell? Does it take really long or something?

[Blisstake]

Haha, I love watching PCs squirm when the magic they've relied on doesn't work :smallamused: Funny that Elan is the most helpful in this situation.

[Yuki Akuma]

I just thought of something. Would it stupid to wait for Durkon to prepare the wind spell? Does it take really long or something?

As a Cleric, he can only prepare spells at a certain time of the day - most likely dawn.

Of course, the comic tends to play fast and loose with that rule in the earlier strips, so... who knows. Maybe Clerics in the OOTS verse only need to sleep for eight hours, like Wizards.

[Goosefeather]

No, they don't mean the same thing.

Homonyms sound the same, but are spelled differently: Ad/add, air/err, cent/scent, to/too/two, there/their/they're, etc.

Heteronyms sound different, but are spelled the same: Windy/windy, content/content, incense/incense.

What accent do you have? To me 'air' and 'err' sound quite different, rhyming with 'hair' and 'her', respectively!

Edit - Wiktionary tells me 'err' can be pronounced to rhyme with both 'hair' and 'her', depending on your accent! Good to know that neither of us is wrong :smalltongue: Though for a minute I had that sudden doubt of 'God, have I been pronouncing that wrong all this time?'

[Whiffet]

That was hilarious. :smallbiggrin: Elan is helping, guys!

The panel where V pointed out how the two definitions of "windy" have separate pronunciations was perfect. V really spoke my mind there.

[Sethala]

I just thought of something. Would it stupid to wait for Durkon to prepare the wind spell? Does it take really long or something?

Clerics (and most other spellcasters) can only prepare spells once per day, usually at the end of a long rest (8 hours). Each spellcaster can prepare any spell they know, and they can learn a very long list of spells, but at the start of each day they can only prepare however many spells they can actually cast (i.e. if a certain cleric can cast five first-level spells in a day, they can prepare five different spells, or five of the same spell, or mix and match however they like, but once they prepare the spells, that's all they get to cast in a day).

(As an aside, sorcerers like Xykon are different, in that they're still limited to how many spells they can cast per day, they have a very short list of spells they know, but don't have to pick what spells to prepare, instead being able to cast any spell they know. So, limited variety, but able to constantly cast a given spell many times over.)

[Conuly]

Well at leas team evil and the linear guild will get slowed down.

WILL they? Team Evil has the coordinates, they don't need to search. The Linear Guild and Tarquin are following the OotS - it is possible (right?) that they will just track Elan or whoever rather than trying to find the right path.

[t209]

So what spell is out in Windy Canyon?

[The Second]

Ouch, I feel V's pain. And Roy's as well.

Also, unbelievable as it may seem, Elan becomes more useful by the day! Go get 'em Elan, show 'em all why Bard is my favorite class.

[edit: typos abound]

[Boogastreehouse]

Also, I hope the title joke is referring to "Moria" even though I'm not sure if that particular reference is up Rich's alley.

I assumed it was a reference to "The Name of the Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_of_the_Rose)," a wonderful novel by Umberto Eco in which the protagonists find themselves in a labyrinth hidden within in a monastery. If Rich is referring to Eco's work then I hold him in even higher esteem than I had previously.

I believe the title also refers to "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

[Whiffet]

Edit - Wiktionary tells me 'err' can be pronounced to rhyme with both 'hair' and 'her', depending on your accent! Good to know that neither of us is wrong :smalltongue: Though for a minute I had that sudden doubt of 'God, have I been pronouncing that wrong all this time?'

Oh, man, I hate the realization that you've been pronouncing something wrong. Especially when you realize it because you said the wrong thing in front of a bunch of people you know. And they start laughing at you. And they make fun of you for years because of it. :smalleek:

[ManuelSacha]

I don't get it.
Does "We're done with the Plan" mean that he told Roy between panels, or that he's not gonna bother him talking about it for a while?

Also, LOL @ Mr Scruffy.


This might be my favourite Kickstarter reward, you know...

[thepsyker]

I don't get it.
Does "We're done with the Plan" mean that he told Roy between panels, or that he's not gonna bother him talking about it for a while?

Also, LOL @ Mr Scruffy.


This might be my favourite Kickstarter reward, you know...

I think it means he told Durkon the plan.

[DBear]

I assumed it was a reference to "The Name of the Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_of_the_Rose)," a wonderful novel by Umberto Eco in which the protagonists find themselves in a labyrinth hidden within in a monastery. If Rich is referring to Eco's work then I hold him in even higher esteem than I had previously.

I believe the title also refers to "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Wikipedia is your friend.

[Shmuel]

I don't get it.
Does "We're done with the Plan" mean that he told Roy between panels, or that he's not gonna bother him talking about it for a while?
I assumed it meant that Durkon had carried out the first phase of the plan. Whether he or Roy know what that plan is is an open question.

[Lord Ruby34]

Yay, a comic for my birthday.

[ella ventic]

They Call the Wind Moriah

Everything in me is telling me to just let this go.

Let... it... go...

Ack, it's musical theatre so I can't. Sorry everyone. Feel free to tune out:

The actual name of the song is "They Call the Wind Maria." It's from the musical Paint Your Wagon.

Even though it's spelled like the common name "Maria," though (muh-REE-uh), it is supposed to be pronounced "Mariah" (like Mariah Carey: muh-RYE-uh). Thus making it an oddly appropriate discussion for this strip, really!

Actually, nowadays it is very common to see people spelling it the way it sounds: "They Call the Wind Mariah." But "Moriah" is a step too far for my apparently delicate sensibilities. Sorry about that, once again.

Okay, lecture over, please resume caring about this thread. :smallredface:

[MoonCat]

Arrgh. This was awesome. I cannot believe it. six different ways to go. That's certainly not a suspiciously perfect number of paths considering the party.

Can't Durkon get Control Wind tomorrow though?

[eilandesq]

V's Familiar (speaking to V.): Walk back up to the entrance, walk to a few hundred feet outside the entrance, fly up until you can see the whole maze of canyons, report back.

Roy: Good advice! You should have obtained a familiar a long time ago, V!

V: [points at Roy] Disintegrate! Quickened Gust of Wind! ]:-)

[Forealms]

Homonym and heteronym do not mean the same, though both are homographs.

Here's (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Homograph_homophone_venn_diagram.svg)a handy Venn diagram!

I knew the difference before I opened that page, and now I am confused. :smallfrown:

That third to last panel is why I read OotS. The perfect blend of self-reference and grammar lesson, which is all I ask out of a comic.

I need higher standards.

[Faramir]

I don't understand. What is the party going to do with all the dye they win?

[FlawedParadigm]

I'm not sure that playing music while in an area with a man they know to prefer ambush as a method of attack is a very bright idea...

[Steward]

Isn't Yukyuk also a ranger, and probably a better one than Belkar (if only by default?)

[Whiffet]

I just noticed:

:vaarsuvius: Someone watch my enslaved kobold for me.

Come to think of it, that's right. That's what is going on here. Do the Good members of the party have no problem with this at all?

[Ron Miel]

Arrgh. This was awesome. I cannot believe it. six different ways to go. That's certainly not a suspiciously perfect number of paths considering the party.

The party currently numbers seven people.


Question : Fly doesn't work because of the wind.
What about wind walk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)

[tiercel]

During the recent rapid-fire awesomeness, we've been seeing recently how efficiently OOtS goes between plot advancement, character pathos, and good-old-fashioned humor and gaming references (to name just a few).

Combine all this with a Tarquin-infused Linear Guild and a Xykon + Extra-Strength Redcloak upcoming convergence with Our Heroes and... man we are headed for one heckuva ride.

*makes some popcorn and perches on edge of seat*

[Red XIV]

WILL they? Team Evil has the coordinates, they don't need to search. The Linear Guild and Tarquin are following the OotS - it is possible (right?) that they will just track Elan or whoever rather than trying to find the right path.
It's possible that Team Evil will wait until tomorrow so that Redcloak can have spells ready to cast, on account of him having to cast most of his high-level spells against the Resistance and Tsukiko (and on the fake phylactery, but Xykon doesn't need to know about that). Or Xykon might just say "**** it, I'm Epic level" and go straight in without caring whether Redcloak is low on spells.

Then again, it's also possible that Girard has defenses in place that will prevent even people as high-level as Xykon from going straight to the gate without having to deal with the maze.

As for the Linear Guild and Tarquin, yeah, they'll follow Elan, meaning the Order will arrive ahead of them. My guess would be the Linear Guild and Team Evil will both show up around the same time.

[MoonCat]

The party currently numbers seven people.

Question : Fly doesn't work because of the wind.
What about wind walk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)

I don't count Yukyuk.

Ah, but there's no such thing as wind walk, so why would he prepare it? :smallwink:

[Beowulf DW]

Wow. Durkon's really reaching for an excuse, there.

[Flame of Anor]

It's a reference to Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind.


I assumed it was a reference to "The Name of the Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_of_the_Rose)," a wonderful novel by Umberto Eco in which the protagonists find themselves in a labyrinth hidden within in a monastery. If Rich is referring to Eco's work then I hold him in even higher esteem than I had previously.

Plausible, but I'm pretty certain Saeyan is right. Either way, it's a reference to a great author!


I believe the title also refers to "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Now that's stretching it. :smallwink:

[Riverdance]

Another Comic already? wow thanks Giant! :smallsmile:

[Starscream]

They are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

::Cricket noises::

...No? No one but me remembers Colossal Cave Adventure? Anyone?...Bueller?

I feel old.

[Grimly Feendish]

Ah, if we can get Lee Marvin and Clint Eastwod into this script that would be a GOOD THING


Everything in me is telling me to just let this go.

Let... it... go...

Ack, it's musical theatre so I can't. Sorry everyone. Feel free to tune out:

The actual name of the song is "They Call the Wind Maria." It's from the musical Paint Your Wagon.

Even though it's spelled like the common name "Maria," though (muh-REE-uh), it is supposed to be pronounced "Mariah" (like Mariah Carey: muh-RYE-uh). Thus making it an oddly appropriate discussion for this strip, really!

Actually, nowadays it is very common to see people spelling it the way it sounds: "They Call the Wind Mariah." But "Moriah" is a step too far for my apparently delicate sensibilities. Sorry about that, once again.

Okay, lecture over, please resume caring about this thread. :smallredface:

[rewinn]

They are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

::Cricket noises::

...No? No one but me remembers Colossal Cave Adventure? Anyone?...Bueller?

I feel old.

Wanna bet chances Gerard's team includes a teleporting Drow ally named Xyzzy

[Gusion]

It's possible that Team Evil will wait until tomorrow so that Redcloak can have spells ready to cast, on account of him having to cast most of his high-level spells against the Resistance and Tsukiko (and on the fake phylactery, but Xykon doesn't need to know about that). Or Xykon might just say "**** it, I'm Epic level" and go straight in without caring whether Redcloak is low on spells.

Xykon says in 833 that he has spells for Redcloak to prepare. That will require at least one night. If they were going to play it safe they'd wait another night in order to enter in with full spells.

[Flame of Anor]

They are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.


A bit later, they're in a twisty maze of passages, all alike.

[KoboldRevenge]

Ooo It's like a dungeon again! Fun times for next arc.

[Forealms]

I just noticed:

:vaarsuvius: Someone watch my enslaved kobold for me.

Come to think of it, that's right. That's what is going on here. Do the Good members of the party have no problem with this at all?

Can't tell if trolling... :smallannoyed:

Are you saying everyone who uses Dominate Person/Monster is a slaver? Cause that's what it sounds like.

[Goosefeather]

They are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

::Cricket noises::

...No? No one but me remembers Colossal Cave Adventure? Anyone?...Bueller?

I feel old.

They'd better watch out for dwarves with nasty little axes, that's all I'm saying.

[Thagorn]

Question : Fly doesn't work because of the wind.
What about wind walk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)

I believe that a wind walker would be even more subject to wind.

Reading here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm the subject becomes vaporous as though affected by gaseous form (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) which specifically states that the target is subject to wind. Now wind walkers are allowed to create a wind for themselves so that they can move up to 60mph but I would assume in this situation that the ambient wind would still affect them.

[Vinsfeld]

A searching montage, you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html)

[AbuSpud]

I think I'm in love with Vaarsuvius.

I'm not sure if that makes you heteronymual or homonymual. :smallconfused:

[Mooglefrooglian]

What accent do you have? To me 'air' and 'err' sound quite different, rhyming with 'hair' and 'her', respectively!

Edit - Wiktionary tells me 'err' can be pronounced to rhyme with both 'hair' and 'her', depending on your accent! Good to know that neither of us is wrong :smalltongue: Though for a minute I had that sudden doubt of 'God, have I been pronouncing that wrong all this time?'

Actually, wouldn't that be another heteronym? "err" when it rhymes with "her" is when you're making a sound of confusion, or think something you might have said is wrong. "The answer is two... err, five."

"err" when it rhymes with "air" means "mistake". "You err, sir, when you call me a man of poor taste."

I guess they do sort of mean the same thing. You just pronounce them differently in different situations?

[Goosefeather]

Actually, wouldn't that be another heteronym? "err" when it rhymes with "her" is when you're making a sound of confusion, or think something you might have said is wrong. "The answer is two... err, five."

"err" when it rhymes with "air" means "mistake". "You err, sir, when you call me a man of poor taste."

I guess they do sort of mean the same thing. You just pronounce them differently in different situations?

I'd spell the former with only one 'r' though. Er, I think, etc.
Either way, the pronunciations I found in Wiktionary were both for the second meaning, so the point is moot. Mooooot!

[Particle_Man]

WILL they? Team Evil has the coordinates, they don't need to search. The Linear Guild and Tarquin are following the OotS - it is possible (right?) that they will just track Elan or whoever rather than trying to find the right path.

Worse, the dominated kobold is carrying the carpet that contains the sigil that the Linear Guild can use to locate the Order of the Stick.

Should be fun times soon.

[Chaotic Queen]

Awww! Poor :vaarsuvius: fell on her bum! She's my favorite character!

[Skull the Troll]

There is one bad thing about this update schedule. Its messing up the time honored code of "new comic forum posts".
1. Pages 1-4 talk about how awesome the comic was and people specify their favorite parts. A few start predicting what will come next.
2. Pages 4-8 Generally involve people shooting down the current events and predictions with obscure rules minutia.
3. Pages 8-10 Are the increasingly vitriolic arguments about the rules. A few people point out that the Giant doesn't really care what the rules are, if it conflicts with the story.

I usually just shoot to page 7 and go from there. But hey, I'm a troll. :smallsmile:

[Ron Miel]

Come to think of it, that's right. That's what is going on here. Do the Good members of the party have no problem with this at all?

What are the alternatives?

1) Kill him? I think Roy and Durkon would not allow that.

2) Release him? Pretty foolish, he might rejoin the LG and be a threat to them.

3) Abandon him in the desert, or on the plane of Ranch Dressing? That would either be a death sentence, or eose he might escape and rejoin the LG. Still a bad idea.

I'd say that for the moment leaving him dominated is the safe and ethical option.

[Goosefeather]

I'm not sure if that makes you heteronymual or homonymual. :smallconfused:

This is an amazing comment. Just thought I should let you know :smalltongue:

[DougTheHead]

I'm probably the 112th person to write this, but when I saw how happy Elan was at the end, I knew I had to anyway:

He's participating! :biggrin:

[Dr._Demento]

Everything in me is telling me to just let this go.

Let... it... go...

Ack, it's musical theatre so I can't. Sorry everyone. Feel free to tune out:

The actual name of the song is "They Call the Wind Maria." It's from the musical Paint Your Wagon.

Even though it's spelled like the common name "Maria," though (muh-REE-uh), it is supposed to be pronounced "Mariah" (like Mariah Carey: muh-RYE-uh). Thus making it an oddly appropriate discussion for this strip, really!

Actually, nowadays it is very common to see people spelling it the way it sounds: "They Call the Wind Mariah." But "Moriah" is a step too far for my apparently delicate sensibilities. Sorry about that, once again.

Okay, lecture over, please resume caring about this thread. :smallredface:

Thank you for the correction, I only was introduced to Paint Your Wagon (only the movie) a week ago, so I was relying on memory.

I didn't get to finish it either, some people thought the movie was too long...

[MyNameIsSecret]

I'm not sure if that makes you heteronymual or homonymual. :smallconfused:

Damn it! I was just about to make that comment!


This is an amazing comment. Just thought I should let you know :smalltongue:

That compliment should of been for me! Double damn it! :smallfurious:

(Oh, and nice comic, Giant.)

[rbetieh]

Nice to see the resurfacing of a running gag :smallbiggrin: They are going to end up proving O-Chul told Redcloak the truth too....extra ironic

[Forikroder]

i guess that explains how an illusionist managed to effectively hide a gate with such spells like trueseeing in existance

making your way through a maze on foot without divinations against an epic level illusionist

i bet Girard even put some enchantment over the canyone that corrodes string

[Eldray]

Worse, the dominated kobold is carrying the carpet that contains the sigil that the Linear Guild can use to locate the Order of the Stick.

Should be fun times soon.

I wonder whether the magic that blocked Find the Path will also block the Linear Guild's divination to find the carpet.

[Aaron]

The magic carpet (which unknown to them has a tracking rune on it), sticks out like a sore thumb. I would have put items like that in a bag of holding (which Haley has like 8 of). :smalltongue:


I wonder whether the magic that blocked Find the Path will also block the Linear Guild's divination to find the carpet.

Hmm, good point. But the Linear guild would at least have been able to track the carpet up to the point that OOTS entered the divination shielded area (which is several miles).

[Shmuel]

I just noticed:

:vaarsuvius: Someone watch my enslaved kobold for me.

Come to think of it, that's right. That's what is going on here. Do the Good members of the party have no problem with this at all?
One of the recurring motifs of OotS is that Good alignment and real-world morality are not identical. (Ditto for Evil and immorality.) Kobolds are an inherently evil race, hence it doesn't much matter what you do to them.

Also, a hollow voice says "Plugh."

[Gift Jeraff]

Is this the first time Durkon's accent was in a spell name?

[Jay R]

Hmm, good point. But the Linear guild would at least have been able to track the carpet up to the point that OOTS entered the divination shielded area (which is several miles).

What's the point? Tarquin already knows where the entrance to the canyon is; he told the Order of the Stick how to find it.


They are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

::Cricket noises::

...No? No one but me remembers Colossal Cave Adventure? Anyone?...Bueller?

I feel old.

A hollow voice says PLUGH.

My wife is currently studying law. When she was reading a particularly difficult law, she complained that it was so convoluted, she was having trouble keeping all the passages straight. I responded, "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike."

[The_Weirdo]

One of the recurring motifs of OotS is that Good alignment and real-world morality are not identical. (Ditto for Evil and immorality.) Kobolds are an inherently evil race, hence it doesn't much matter what you do to them.

Also, a hollow voice says "Plugh."

I think that's less of an issue than the fact that the kobold tried to KILL V.

Really, I'd have no compunctions doing that exact sort of thing to anyone who tried to kill me if I could, and I see myself as Chaotic Neutral.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

One of the recurring motifs of OotS is that Good alignment and real-world morality are not identical. (Ditto for Evil and immorality.) Kobolds are an inherently evil race, hence it doesn't much matter what you do to them.

Also, a hollow voice says "Plugh."

Actually the comic seems to be arguing against that race based judgement. And Roy's morality doesn't seem too divergent from real world. No, the better question is "what else do you do with the mind-controlled psychopath"? Kill him? Let him go? Try to transport him back to the Empire of Blood, where Tarquin will treat him abominably, even in comparison to what you're doing?

Or did you mean the cat thing? In that case, it's important to point out that V and Belkar aren't good. The actually good party members probably aren't okay with all of it, but since Roy's goal is to try and steer his less ethical members to contributing to the greater good, he can't argue with them over every issue if he wants to keep them under his lead. Basically, you have to pick your battles.

[Knight.Anon]

I thought that the place was named after Girard's girlfriend Windy.

[ella ventic]

I thought that the place was named after Girard's girlfriend Windy.

...Is she sweeping down the streets of the city, smiling at everybody she sees?

[caldazar]

Wild speculation ahoy:

I'm thinking there's some trick afoot. Of course there must be, given that Girard was a very powerful illusionist. But I think the trick goes beyond the wind and the spell blocking, and perhaps involves the returned members of the party.

There has yet to be any plot payoff for the party splitting up. V was separated during the battle with the plane shift, but that didn't seem have any further repercussions on the plot, since now they are apparently all reunited already. It's a little unusual for OOTS for something like that to not affect the plot somehow.

I'm pretty sure Rich had a comment in commentary section of Don't Split the Party that we should expect further plot points to separate out party members, especially the spellcasters, since they are so powerful that it makes it harder to write many interesting scenarios.

My guess is that one of the two groups, probably V/Durkon/Belkar, is not who they appear to be but Girard's men under illusions. The real V/Durkon/Belkar are still in the plane of elemental ranch dressing, or lost somewhere else in the maze. This would provide another explanation for their spells conveniently not working. It would also mean Elan was right after all in the previous strip, when he predicted that they couldn't possibly reunite with the rest of the party so easily.

I'm going out on a limb here, it could be just that Rich is cranking out a bunch of filler strips since he promised to publish one every day, but I have a feeling that if not this, something else is up.

[7RED7]

Do we know if this is a full anti-magic field or just disruptions of specific spells for specific reasons?

Sure, V just got knocked down by the wind, but Durkon's magic seems to have been directly disrupted.

How reliable is the domination on the kobold in this situation?

[Sith_Happens]

One of the recurring motifs of OotS is that Good alignment and real-world morality are not identical. (Ditto for Evil and immorality.) Kobolds are an inherently evil race, hence it doesn't much matter what you do to them.

:redcloak: And that makes you the truly Evil one, doesn't it?

[ella ventic]

Here's a thought: Girard protects his gate with illusions. How much of this maze-of-twisty-passages-all-alike is actually real?

I'm reminded of the beginning of Labyrinth, where Sarah can run forever on the obvious path without actually advancing at all. In order to make real progress she must see through the illusion to the true way forward.

[snikrept]

ARRGH ! They've entered the demesne of an epic level illusionist and they are taking everything at face value.

Wind? What wind?

Multiple paths? What multiple paths?

I do not think they mentally prepared sufficiently for this.

[jidasfire]

I love how Belkar has become Johnny-on-the-spot with the zings on Roy. It reminds me a little of Bender in Futurama. I hope the trend continues awhile.

Also, it's never been expressly stated in the comic, but is Durkon hard of hearing? He kinda seems like he is.

[Mynoduesp]

Loving these incredibly speedy updates!

I imagine Roy facepalming in the last pannel.
It adds comedic value imo.

[Shmuel]

Actually the comic seems to be arguing against that race based judgement.
Well, yes, that's more or less my point. :smallsmile:

[Zorgophlats]

Wild speculation ahoy:

I'm pretty sure Rich had a comment in commentary section of Don't Split the Party that we should expect further plot points to separate out party members, especially the spellcasters, since they are so powerful that it makes it harder to write many interesting scenarios.


We've seen this already, but it doesn't mean it won't happen again. V was unable to affect the fight with the LG once plane shifted. Durkon was preoccupied with learning a new spell and was unable to affect the fight either. Once D showed up, Nale hit him as hard as he could.

I do have to agree on one point, it seems like something else should have happend since V returned. I can't put my finger on it. Something is off here.

[Anarion]

Okay, I admit it, I lost it when I got to V's little heteronyms rant. That shouldn't be funny, but it was really funny. Well played Giant.

[Killer Angel]

I wonder if fly with FoM would work.
But I'm happy with the quest on foot, supported by Elan. :smallsmile:

[Holy_Knight]

I just noticed:

:vaarsuvius: Someone watch my enslaved kobold for me.

Come to think of it, that's right. That's what is going on here. Do the Good members of the party have no problem with this at all?
Yeah, that seemed a little off to me, too. Just keeping a sentient being enthralled to do your bidding like that seems like something a good character would have a problem with.


What are the alternatives?

1) Kill him? I think Roy and Durkon would not allow that.

2) Release him? Pretty foolish, he might rejoin the LG and be a threat to them.

3) Abandon him in the desert, or on the plane of Ranch Dressing? That would either be a death sentence, or eose he might escape and rejoin the LG. Still a bad idea.

I'd say that for the moment leaving him dominated is the safe and ethical option.

I disagree. Mental enslavement is unethical in the first place, but aside from that, they'd still have to deal with him in some way once the domination ends, so all they're doing is spending a longer amount of time using morally questionable tactics until they have to face the same problem anyway. He seemed to be in no immediate danger on the plane of ranch dressing, so they could have left him there at least for the time being. Even better, they could have immobilized him and sent to Tarquin to imprison him, since as far as they know Tarquin is still willing to help them out and has the resources to hold him.


One of the recurring motifs of OotS is that Good alignment and real-world morality are not identical. (Ditto for Evil and immorality.) Kobolds are an inherently evil race, hence it doesn't much matter what you do to them.

Also, a hollow voice says "Plugh."
Wow. Perhaps the biggest motif of OoTS is the repugnance of that kind of thinking.

[dtilque]

I agree they aren't being the smartest here. Do either of the magic users have True Seeing as one of their spells? It would seem an appropriate time to use it. Then again, that would be too optimal for the OotS.

I noticed in the first panel that Durkon doesn't look all that happy about Elan's top secret plan. Or perhaps he's just a bit confused by it. That seems to be a strike against an Elan-Haley wedding as the plan, since I doubt he'd be either confused or unhappy with that.

[Cor1]

Great comic. "Magic can do everything" indeed.

And I loved V's rant. So. Much. It's a pet peeve of mine, people who can't be bothered to use exact terminology, or get confused by pronunciations.

[St Fan]

Also, it's never been expressly stated in the comic, but is Durkon hard of hearing? He kinda seems like he is.

Well, amongst the many speculations I've seen on these forums... this one at least would make some sense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html).

[Dr._Demento]

I agree they aren't being the smartest here. Do either of the magic users have True Seeing as one of their spells? It would seem an appropriate time to use it. Then again, that would be too optimal for the OotS.

I noticed in the first panel that Durkon doesn't look all that happy about Elan's top secret plan. Or perhaps he's just a bit confused by it. That seems to be a strike against an Elan-Haley wedding as the plan, since I doubt he'd be either confused or unhappy with that.

Not only do they have it, but they can cast it synchronized, just like in the Olympics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html).

[dsavereide]

Roy doesn't seem to have a song in his heart. Lucky for us, Elan always does.

I don't know much about the magic rules... will the anti-magic at work here also keep V from recasting dominate?

[Dire Llama]

See, rest of the comicking world, this is how you
* have several types of jokes (not just leading up to a punchline)
* demonstrate character
* push a "simple" drawing style to the limit
My favourite is panel 6. Clearly showing wind, dust, falling down, different types of clothes. With stick figures.

Now run! Run like the wind!

[B. Dandelion]

Wild speculation ahoy:

I'm thinking there's some trick afoot. Of course there must be, given that Girard was a very powerful illusionist. But I think the trick goes beyond the wind and the spell blocking, and perhaps involves the returned members of the party.

There has yet to be any plot payoff for the party splitting up. V was separated during the battle with the plane shift, but that didn't seem have any further repercussions on the plot, since now they are apparently all reunited already. It's a little unusual for OOTS for something like that to not affect the plot somehow.

I'm pretty sure Rich had a comment in commentary section of Don't Split the Party that we should expect further plot points to separate out party members, especially the spellcasters, since they are so powerful that it makes it harder to write many interesting scenarios.

My guess is that one of the two groups, probably V/Durkon/Belkar, is not who they appear to be but Girard's men under illusions. The real V/Durkon/Belkar are still in the plane of elemental ranch dressing, or lost somewhere else in the maze. This would provide another explanation for their spells conveniently not working. It would also mean Elan was right after all in the previous strip, when he predicted that they couldn't possibly reunite with the rest of the party so easily.

I'm going out on a limb here, it could be just that Rich is cranking out a bunch of filler strips since he promised to publish one every day, but I have a feeling that if not this, something else is up.


I really like this idea. Very clever. Now I'm finding myself over-scrutinizing every single thing said by those three looking for signs of OOC behavior. Thus far nothing really pings, although I'm sort of amused by the added dimension it would give to Durkon's puzzled expression in the first panel!

[RMS Oceanic]

Roy doesn't seem to have a song in his heart. Lucky for us, Elan always does.

I don't know much about the magic rules... will the anti-magic at work here also keep V from recasting dominate?

So far it appears the magic only blocks divination magic. Dominate is enchantment magic, so it shouldn't be affected.

[Omergideon]

Also, it's never been expressly stated in the comic, but is Durkon hard of hearing? He kinda seems like he is.

One of the earliest jokes involving Durkon is about him constantly mishearing Roy. This could be a very subtle and interesting callback to that joke. I would need to trawl the comic to find if there are any other references to it. All in all though it is a nice touch if this is the case.

Anyways, with daily and frequent updates it is very hard to keep pace in these discussions. But I still needlessly inflict my views on everyone, so here goes. I thought this was a decent little story/joke comic. The strips seem to be a bit more gag focused since the daily drive started. Not an issue. The light hearted nature is still good after 2 very serious and action packed arcs. I can imagine we are building to something good as well. As it is this establishes well the sorts of protections and stakes found in Girards home, whilst doing it in an entertaining manner. No infodump of "these protections scryed" but rather them doing stuff.....joke coming out of it manner. Excellent construction. But on to the specifics.

The Good:
1) I have been very impressed by the art recently, and most specifically by the shifting levels of zoom we get. I do not recall it being so prevalent outside of some action scenes before, but it still works well adding subtle drama. Combined with small details like Mr Scruffy on YukYuk's head, The woosh blowing Elan/Haleys hair and so on.....Mr Burlew, you have made stick figures into a true art form. Well Done.
2) I have already mentioned the constuction of the story in this strip. The purpose seems to have been to establish the sorts of protections on the canyon. And in witnessing it we see the Order displaying competence, skill, silliness and humour. It was no simple discussion but an active way of showing the issues making it much more interesting. This method also allows for better interplay with the characters.
3) The jokes as a whole seem to work very well in the comic. A number of different types, with simple "mock him" jokes, Elan silliness, character interplay and pratfalls as well as a great callback punchline (made better by Roy's expression). The heteronym joke, and Elan's joy at the punny nature of Windy Windy was delightful to me. NOt roar out loud funny, but certainly a chuckle or 2.
4) Special praise for the second panel. If you look at it every party member (except the silly Elan) is prepared for action with weapoins drawn etc. Small but very good scene. I don't know exactly why I like it so much, but I do. And the fact that each order member gets a moment or joke in which to shine. Some are small (Belkar and Haley) but they all do something. Always a plus.

The Bad:
...
...
...
No major issues again. This is probably because of the daily updates but the strips seem to flow very well. They have less standalone humour value and need subsequent strips, but with daily updates this very minor niggle disappears entirely. The strips recently have had a very tight and specific focus. Very gag heavy but all advancing plot in a great way. As fun as the epic Linear Guild brawl was it did seem to be too slow paced, and even a bit padded at times. Fun padding, but padding none the less. None of that here. I would say this one, like last time, is ***1/2. Nothing good enough to push the score up, but with no real faults at all, or big ones anyways, it deserves more than a 3 star score.

[maxon]

It's been a whole strip since the order got back together and it's straight back to business as usual for Roy. Gnnnnnngh!

[Yuki Akuma]

Roy doesn't seem to have a song in his heart. Lucky for us, Elan always does.

I don't know much about the magic rules... will the anti-magic at work here also keep V from recasting dominate?

There's no antimagic at work - Vaarsuvius managed to cast Fly with no problem. It's probably something similar to a wide-area scrying shield. Or maybe Durokan taught Cloister to Girard.

[Eldray]

I disagree. Mental enslavement is unethical in the first place, but aside from that, they'd still have to deal with him in some way once the domination ends

Can't V just recast Dominate Person forever?

[Sith_Happens]

Can't V just recast Dominate Person forever?

Yukyuk will pass the save eventually, but other than that yes.

[Valyrian]

One of the earliest jokes involving Durkon is about him constantly mishearing Roy. This could be a very subtle and interesting callback to that joke. I would need to trawl the comic to find if there are any other references to it. All in all though it is a nice touch if this is the case.
Possible, but I thought it rather was a reference to the whole "characters can read speech balloons" running gag, like Xykon being able to tell when someone spells his name with a Z.

[Valyrian]

Edit: server error, sorry.

[Valyrian]

Edit: server error, sorry.

[Chaotic Queen]

ARRGH ! They've entered the demesne of an epic level illusionist and they are taking everything at face value.

Wind? What wind?

Multiple paths? What multiple paths?

I do not think they mentally prepared sufficiently for this.

And this surprises you... why?

[St Fan]

Yeah, that seemed a little off to me, too. Just keeping a sentient being enthralled to do your bidding like that seems like something a good character would have a problem with.

Compared to the alternative? Which is, I remind you, would be to get the opponent killed in combat?

Sorry: mental enslavement is something a good character SHOULD be doing as much as possible in preference to killing, especially if facing evil foes. Consider it a form of community service: you've tried to kill us, so now as punishment and comeuppance you'll have to serve the party as carrier/bodyguard/bait/whatever as long as the spell last.

Of course, WHAT you have the dominated monster do during the enslavement is still important alignment-wise. Needlessly sending the slave to its death, or slitting its throat before it could turn against you would be evil. Sending it back home a few days before the spell end? A good character would get no trouble from it, even if doing this repeatedly.

[Ron Miel]

I disagree. Mental enslavement is unethical in the first place,

Self defence justifies it on this occasion.


but aside from that, they'd still have to deal with him in some way once the domination ends, so all they're doing is spending a longer amount of time using morally questionable tactics until they have to face the same problem anyway.

They are rather busy at the moment. They may have more time to deal with him later.


He seemed to be in no immediate danger on the plane of ranch dressing, so they could have left him there at least for the time being.

He'd have starved to death. You can't survive for long with nothing to eat but ranch dressing.



Even better, they could have immobilized him and sent to Tarquin to imprison him, since as far as they know Tarquin is still willing to help them out and has the resources to hold him.

How could they have delivered him ? Do they have teleport now?
Plus, none of them trusted Tarquin.
And sending a prisoner to Tarquin is a death sentence anyway. Or perhaps you're expecting him to be the arena's new champion.

[fergo]

Whoo! Rapid update speed is awesome :smallbiggrin:.

I'm really enjoying the relatively light-hearted feel, especially after all the epic goings-on we've had lately. So I'm not really in the camp of 'There's some massive illusion going on that will end in a horrific twist'. I know it's likely, considering Draketooth is an epic-level illusionist, but I hope we get a short spell of the characters being free to be their wacky selves for a while first.

The second strip especially reminds me of some of the earliest strips. The comic has grown incredibly since then, and certainly (in my eyes) for the better, but it's still nice to have a bit of a break. It's awesome to see the gang back together again (plus a dominated kobold, a cat and a bird which was kind of there all along but not really).

I'm loving the desert artwork. The colour-scheme really adds to the afore-mentioned light-hearted feel.

[Crimsonmantle]

Possible, but I thought it rather was a reference to the whole "characters can read speech balloons" running gag, like Xykon being able to tell when someone spells his name with a Z.

If you think that's odd, then you've been mispronouncing Xykon all along. I think. That all the Anglophones seem to do that doesn't change my view in the slightest.

Anyways... there's more than one meaning to "windy" (though there's only one to "windy".)

Accompanied by wind; Unsheltered and open to the wind; Empty and lacking substance; Long-winded or orally verbose; Flatulent (quoted from wiktionary). 1st, 2nd and (now that Suvie has arrived) 4th we can attest. I can do without jokes about the 5th... but if the 3rd is also true than that would be quite the twist. ;D

[Valyrian]

If you think that's odd, then you've been mispronouncing Xykon all along. I think. That all the Anglophones seem to do that doesn't change my view in the slightest.
Anglophone?



<-- take a look at my location, Sir ;)

(And by the way, I've initially pronounced it Ksykon as well, but that still doesn't make it the correct pronounciation.)

[The Pilgrim]

Elan wins, again.

BTW, the fun thing about V dominating the Kobold, is that when the IFCC decides to dominate her, they will have TWO pawns for the price of one.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Pure awesome! This strip has a very relaxed feel. We step away from "plot building" and dark villainous acts and just get pure OotS comedy! +1

[Elfich]

They are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

::Cricket noises::

...No? No one but me remembers Colossal Cave Adventure? Anyone?...Bueller?

I feel old.

W.W.W.N.U.Get coins and nasty knife.

[Burner28]

Oh, Elan! Tut tut tut!

[Jay R]

And I loved V's rant. So. Much. It's a pet peeve of mine, people who can't be bothered to use exact terminology, or get confused by pronunciations.

But that's not what Vaarsuvius is ranting about. This is a "breaking the fourth wall" joke. V is complaining that it's impossible for Durkon to have made this mistake.

It would be possible for the readers, who are reading word balloons, to make the mistake Durkon made, but it's not possible for Durkon, who heard it.

[Xelbiuj]

People on here argue the most ridiculous stuff. Enslaving someone is not ethical.
Yes, dominating their mind may be necessary in self defense but doing it for a prolonged time and force them to work* for you? Evil.
"It's better than the alternative, if for his own good"
Yep, just like they said about blacks. "It's for their own good."

Part of being good is making the hard and often, stupid choices.

[Shmuel]

Wow. Perhaps the biggest motif of OoTS is the repugnance of that kind of thinking.
Again, yes, I believe that's what I said.

[LordRahl6]

Great Strip! I like Rich pointing out that the Order is now in the high levels, even though they are apparently not strong enough to break Girard's EPIC levels.:smallbiggrin: Also nice to bring back the "Inspire Competence" bard class feature.:smallwink:

[Ferrocy]

Lol, Vaarsuvius said "hetero"

[ref]

You are in a maze of little winding passages, all alike.

[AutomatedTeller]

I loved the collosal cave. Never did get that last point...

I've got no problem with them keeping their dominated kobold. I mean - they hang out with Belkar, willingly.

He is an enemy, after all.

[Roland Itiative]

Great comic :smalltongue: I found the "no signal" part specially hilarious because the cleric from a campaign I'm playing is going through a similar situation right now.

[Chaotic Queen]

Has anyone else noticed that this is the first time Elan's cursed? He said "badass" twice!

Edit: sorry, I just noticed I was talking about strip 836.

[M.A.D]

Has anyone else noticed that this is the first time Elan's cursed? He said "badass" twice!

Edit: sorry, I just noticed I was talking about strip 836.

I think you mean "cuss", though "badass" is neither of those.

[Chaotic Queen]

I think you mean "cuss", though "badass" is neither of those.

Cuss = curse = swear

[rbetieh]

I just noticed the scruffinator now sits on YukYuks head....:smallbiggrin:

[Crimsonmantle]

Anglophone?



<-- take a look at my location, Sir ;)

(And by the way, I've initially pronounced it Ksykon as well, but that still doesn't make it the correct pronounciation.)
I said Gzykon at first, and still do. :)

[pendejochy]

For the PETK out there, if it makes you feel better, you could say the party is simply keeping YukYuk as a prisoner instead of a slave.

I think the main factor of whether this is evil or not depends on what exactly they do with Yucks. Is V going to just keep him dominated forever? Sacrifice him to distract some monster? Just let Belkar kill him once the Kobold outlives his usefulness?

[VinRaven]

Edit: server error, sorry.

You know you can delete duplicate posts just as easy editing them, right?:smallamused:

[Boogastreehouse]

Alright, this is silly;

charming/mentally enslaving an enemy combatant is not in and of itself an evil act. You are already in the process of trying to kill your opponent, and an enchantment spell puts them out of the fight just as efficiently. People are getting hung up on the word "enslaved," I feel, because it produces a knee-jerk reaction with some modern readers, but we can simply replace it with the word "enthralled," and it immediately becomes a bit more neutral-sounding.

Now once you have them enthralled, it's a matter of what you do with them that brings the virtue of your acts into question.

•Use them as living weapons in combat? Well you were already trying to kill each other, so most groups I've gamed with agree that this is simply a continuation of that conflict. Not Evil by D&D standards. Depending on the circumstances, it might rub a specific good character's personal ethics the wrong way, but another good character might have no problem with it.

•Force them to walk ahead to set off any hidden traps? Probably Evil. As a DM I might rule it a Neutral act if you had an enchanted Kobold, and you were having him test for traps that he or his fellow kobolds might have set for you.

•Have them walk around with you so you can keep an eye on them? Not evil. You used a charm spell to end the conflict where you were trying to kill each other. Some might argue that this, being a less violent solution, is more good, but the universe of D&D does not consider violence to be evil in and of itself.

•Force them to do degrading acts/endure torture for your amusement? Clearly Evil. We already know Belkar is Evil, and we already know that V occasionally does laps into and out of the deep end of the alignment pool. The enchantment spell/continued beguilement was not necessarily evil, but degrading/torturing Yukyuk with a house cat was definitely evil by D&D standards.

[VinRaven]

•Force them to do degrading acts/endure torture for your amusement? Clearly Evil. We already know Belkar is Evil, and we already know that V occasionally does laps into and out of the deep end of the alignment pool. The enchantment spell/continued beguilement was not necessarily evil, but degrading/torturing Yukyuk with a house cat was definitely evil by D&D standards.

Hold up, cats are innately evil, it's not our protagonists' fault the cat was living up to its racial alignment.

:redcloak:

[t209]

Hold up, cats are innately evil, it's not our protagonists' fault the cat was living up to its racial alignment.

:redcloak:

Well, Yuk Yuk tried to shoot Scruffy with a crossbow.

[hamishspence]

Hold up, cats are innately evil, it's not our protagonists' fault the cat was living up to its racial alignment.

:redcloak:

It is their fault for making him lie down and remain stationary so the cat can act as it does.

[ti'esar]

I have to say, I really enjoy how true this strip feels to games I've been in.

"Let's see you avoid this obstacle, smart-guy PCs!"

Although who says that maze is all there, anyway? The Order doesn't seem to have come with quite the right mindset for dealing with an epic-level illusionist.

[EmperorSarda]

Here's a thought: Girard protects his gate with illusions. How much of this maze-of-twisty-passages-all-alike is actually real?

I'm reminded of the beginning of Labyrinth, where Sarah can run forever on the obvious path without actually advancing at all. In order to make real progress she must see through the illusion to the true way forward.

I am inclined to agree with you. There may not be six passages. There may be two or three. And no matter which one they go down, they choose wrong.

[Boogastreehouse]

Although who says that maze is all there, anyway? The Order doesn't seem to have come with quite the right mindset for dealing with an epic-level illusionist.

That's where paranoid, chaotic-mindset Ian Starshine comes in!

[The_Weirdo]

People on here argue the most ridiculous stuff. Enslaving someone is not ethical.
Yes, dominating their mind may be necessary in self defense but doing it for a prolonged time and force them to work* for you? Evil.
"It's better than the alternative, if for his own good"
Yep, just like they said about blacks. "It's for their own good."

Part of being good is making the hard and often, stupid choices.

A Neutral is still fully capable of paying evil unto evil. The kobold tried to kill V. V is stronger than the kobold in one specific aspect that counted (enchantment vs. Will save). The kobold now works for V. Evil? Yes, but the kind of evil a Neutral might well do, given that, again, the kobold tried to kill V.

[Ron Miel]

•Force them to do degrading acts/endure torture for your amusement? Clearly Evil. We already know Belkar is Evil, and we already know that V occasionally does laps into and out of the deep end of the alignment pool. The enchantment spell/continued beguilement was not necessarily evil, but degrading/torturing Yukyuk with a house cat was definitely evil by D&D standards.

I agree with most of your post, except for this bit.

The Kobold attempted to kill Mr Scruffy. The cat's revenge was to take a crap in his mouth. Disgusting? certainly. Evil? No way.l It's a bit of justified punishment that is nowhere near as bad as what he did.

[ti'esar]

That's where paranoid, chaotic-mindset Ian Starshine comes in!

Assuming he isn't already working with the Draketeeth...

Question: does the level of magic so far suggest an epic-level illusionist? We still don't know for sure whether Girard is even still alive.

[Kobold-Bard]

Fight the rails all you want Roy, you're never going to get away from them.

[Boogastreehouse]

•Force them to do degrading acts/endure torture for your amusement? Clearly Evil. We already know Belkar is Evil, and we already know that V occasionally does laps into and out of the deep end of the alignment pool. The enchantment spell/continued beguilement was not necessarily evil, but degrading/torturing Yukyuk with a house cat was definitely evil by D&D standards.

I agree with most of your post, except for this bit.

The Kobold attempted to kill Mr Scruffy. The cat's revenge was to take a crap in his mouth. Disgusting? certainly. Evil? No way.l It's a bit of justified punishment that is nowhere near as bad as what he did.

But I'm not discussing whether it was an evil act for Mr. Scruffy. Mr. Scruffy is an animal, and hasn't the intelligence to know Good from Evil.

Belkar is the one who conceived of the idea, allowed it, and encouraged it, and Belkar isn't doing it out of any sense of justice, just vengeance. Depending on the circumstances, seeking vengeance can be an evil act, but Belkar isn't wholly motivated by vengeance anyway. Belkar is just enjoying an excuse to inflict degradation and misery on a helpless sentient being for his own amusement. The fact that the Kobold hurt Mr. Scruffy doesn't entirely account for the pleasure Belkar takes in such an act. That enjoyment makes it Evil, regardless of any arguments you want to make to "justify" the act.

[Aurabolt]

Not to mention that there's no reason why they shouldn't explore the dungeon for tactical reasons either; the Linear Guild, if they are also as good as the Order, would likely have made some of the same choices that Roy just attempted. They may very well have attempted Flight or Divination too.

As we all know, exploring a dungeon or outlying region provides a lay of the land, an understanding of monsters within the area and the expectation of what comes, as well as possible treasure. All sounds like good reasons to me.

[danc]

Loving the update schedule at the minute :smallbiggrin: also: anyone else getting an old OOTS feeling off the last few comics. especially pronounced with last panel.

[Forikroder]

maybe they should try conjuring some paladin illusions, maybe Girard will be angry enough to deal with it personally

ideally without some long range area attack that can be cast from far enough away to not notice there illusions

[Nightfall]

Also, I hope the title joke is referring to "Moria" even though I'm not sure if that particular reference is up Rich's alley.

That would be "Maria" (but pronounced like Mariah Carey's name), and would be a reference to the song "They Call the Wind Maria" from the movie "Paint Your Wagon".

(If this has already been mentioned, please ignore this post, since I didn't bother to read all dozen pages.)

[The MunchKING]

...Is she sweeping down the streets of the city, smiling at everybody she sees?

I thought she was just a good little witch. :smallconfused: :smallwink:

[snikrept]

maybe they should try conjuring some paladin illusions, maybe Girard will be angry enough to deal with it personally

ideally without some long range area attack that can be cast from far enough away to not notice there illusions

This is a pretty awesome outside-the-box tactic :smallbiggrin:

[dtilque]

Not only do they have it, but they can cast it synchronized, just like in the Olympics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html).

Right. A possible problem is that True Seeing is a Devination spell. If those are being blocked by some kind of epic spell, then it won't do them any good. But they should try it anyway.

I just read the page on TS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm), and found that it can be cast on another being, not just on the spell caster. If it does work, then they should also cast it on Roy and Haley at the least. In fact, they should have done that when searching the desert in the in the strip you link to above. Another example of OotS being less than optimum.

[Red XIV]

Yeah, it's quite unlikely that an Epic-level illusionist would have failed to account for True Seeing. That's like the first thing anybody's going to use when trying to navigate an illusion-based maze.

[Sunken Valley]

Is it just me, or has the Giant missed a day in his native East Coast? (don't worry, you haven't here, well technically you did on Wednesday but that's a time zone thing).

[MyNameIsSecret]

Is it just me, or has the Giant missed a day in his native East Coast? (don't worry, you haven't here, well technically you did on Wednesday but that's a time zone thing).

Yeah, the new comic seems a bit late... but hey, I don't really care if the Giant doesn't stay right on his schedule - the rate of new comics is good enough for me. :smallbiggrin:

[Cor1]

Yeah, it's quite unlikely that an Epic-level illusionist would have failed to account for True Seeing. That's like the first thing anybody's going to use when trying to navigate an illusion-based maze.

Not the Order of the Stick. They've known for, like, ever, that this Gate would be protected by Epic-level Illusions, and can't even remember to cast the one spell that shuts down the whole school hard. It's not like it doesn't exist in Stickverse, even, because we saw RC cast it when Darth V fought Xykon.

Now there certainly is a way for Illusionists to overcome that, too : use Illusion [Shadow] spells. "You see that the wall is an illusion. No, you don't see behind it. You see a wall made of shadowstuff."

Also, an Epic-level Illusionist, Shapechanged into a gnome native to the Plane Shadow, in a Planar Bubble, with the right ACFs and being a Master Specialist (from CMage), can cast Illusions that are even more efficient when you disbelieve them. That the story is more interesting/funny because the characters are bumbling fools does not prevent the NPCs from being optimized.

[Martok]

In one of life's ironic little coincidences, I'm in the middle of reading the very book off which this comic's title is based. :smallamused:

[Kareasint]

Roy has the perfect tool to locate Girard.

Let Elan lead the way. He will stumble over the correct path in a matter of minutes.

[Jay R]

Roy has the perfect tool to locate Girard.

Let Elan lead the way. He will stumble over the correct path in a matter of minutes.

There last time he tried that method to find Girard, the party was split for over 130 strips, three of them were captured by bounty hunters, he wound up in a fight to the death in an arena, and the Order was ambushed by the Linear Guild. Also, he didn't find Girard. Overall, not a 100% win.

[Ron Miel]

But Elan was the one who found the clue that led them to this spot. It took some time, yes, but it was Elan's doing.

[ti'esar]

There last time he tried that method to find Girard, the party was split for over 130 strips, three of them were captured by bounty hunters, he wound up in a fight to the death in an arena, and the Order was ambushed by the Linear Guild. Also, he didn't find Girard. Overall, not a 100% win.

Technically, they did find Girard, or at least a lead on him - which was more then they had before.

[Jay R]

Technically, they did find Girard, or at least a lead on him - which was more then they had before.

The post I replied to said that he would find it in a matter of minutes, which is clearly untrue.