Whirling Frenzy + Reckless Rage = Better?

[Rossebay]

So, we take Whirling Frenzy (UA) for +4 Str, +2 AC and Ref., +1 Attack on Full Attack.

Then, we slap on Reckless Rage (RoS) for +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 AC while raging.

We end up with +6 Str, +2 Con, +1 Attack, +2 Reflex.

Combine that with Pounce, and a classic THF Pouncer, and that's giving us an extra attack, with all attacks getting a net +1 on their roll out of it.

It qualifies as Rage in all other aspects, so we can assume that it qualifies for the feat as well as whatever Prestige Classes we want to take.
Right? Sure, it requires a feat to do this, but it seems strictly better than rage.

[Wings of Peace]

So, we take Whirling Frenzy (UA) for +4 Str, +2 AC and Ref., +1 Attack on Full Attack.

Then, we slap on Reckless Rage (RoS) for +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 AC while raging.

We end up with +6 Str, +2 Con, +1 Attack, +2 Reflex.

Combine that with Pounce, and a classic THF Pouncer, and that's giving us an extra attack, with all attacks getting a net +1 on their roll out of it.

It qualifies as Rage in all other aspects, so we can assume that it qualifies for the feat as well as whatever Prestige Classes we want to take.
Right? Sure, it requires a feat to do this, but it seems strictly better than rage.

Yes. Even without the feat most people (myself included) seem to consider Whirling Frenzy largely superior to regular Rage. This is largely because Whirling Frenzy grants an extra attack which is immensely better than the stat boosts granted by regular rage.

[Red_Dog]

I never crunched numbers on Whirling Vs Rage... however I did noticed one BIG advantage [IMO] that it gives over Rage.

Namely, as far as I can tell, it keeps Frenzied Berserker in check. It says that you can't use it while using similar abilities... To me this can be interpreted backwards as well, as in=> While you are in WF, you can't enter other forms of rage/other maniacal abilities. So if you combine this with Immediate Rage, you can prevent yourself from going nuts and TPKing w/ immediate action.

A trap hit you? => WF before that spike/acid/etc. hit your face (and you get Reflex bonus!) and not Frenzy.

This also allows you to pace yourself and not "Nova Out" on a minor fight. It does put a strain on your top performance a bit, but its just few points in str. Lets be honest, most FBs invent ways to STOP/NOT Frenzy as their insane power attack is plenty enough to cleave almost anything a new $%#hole.

Also with Extra Rage, you can get yourself 4 WF per day even with 1-2 Levels of Barbarian ^^. *It does all end up feat hungry, but IMO not too bad*

P.S. BTW, would Whirling Frenzy be improved with Goliath Barbarian as well?O_o I see no reason why it wouldn't. Now that would be very nice use for it ^^

[Rossebay]

Yes. Even without the feat most people (myself included) seem to consider Whirling Frenzy largely superior to regular Rage. This is largely because Whirling Frenzy grants an extra attack which is immensely better than the stat boosts granted by regular rage.

So... There's really no reason to build a normal Barbarian, as far as I can tell, yeah?

Hahaha. Oh dear, I've been doing everything wrong...

[Red_Dog]

So... There's really no reason to build a normal Barbarian, as far as I can tell, yeah?

Again, one I know that worth it IMO is that Con boosts Will thru Steadfast Determination and IMO Indomitable Will is superior to Evasion as Evasion can be acquired in many ways. If it was Improved Evasion, we could argue, but over all, Normal Rage gives you more "Defense" (counterintuitively enough) while Whirling Frenzy gives more Offense.

Unfortunately, all the really GOOD defensive percs somewhat later (unless that will save is truly bothering you and a Greater MindCloaking crystal is not enough) so Whirling Frenzy is a superior Dip.

[Greenish]

P.S. BTW, would Whirling Frenzy be improved with Goliath Barbarian as well?O_o I see no reason why it wouldn't.Whirling Frenzy is an ACF that trades away the standard rage. Goliath's substitution levels give Mountain Rage instead of normal rage. Even if you could swap Mountain Rage to Whirling Frenzy, you wouldn't have both.

[candycorn]

Whirling Frenzy is an ACF that trades away the standard rage. Goliath's substitution levels give Mountain Rage instead of normal rage. Even if you could swap Mountain Rage to Whirling Frenzy, you wouldn't have both.

Whirling Frenzy isn't an ACF. It's a variant. Slight difference.

It is a form of rage. If you're using that variant class feature, it's an alternative to, not a replacement of, rage.

It's debatable, but not unreasonable to allow both to combine.

[Mystify]

I like combining it with frantic rage, and make the strength into dex.
Hello AC, nice to meet you.
Its useful to throw into dex-based builds. You are netting pounce, +4 dex, +4 AC, +2 con, and an extra attack, for 2 class levels and a couple of feats. Then the recklass rage drops your net Ac by 1, but you have more dex, which means more accuracy. And damage, if you are doing it right.
What is really funny is combining it with righteous wrath. "I can't quite get this lock...." *reckless righteous whirling rage!* "Ah, there we go!"

[Rossebay]

I like combining it with frantic rage, and make the strength into dex.
Hello AC, nice to meet you.
Its useful to throw into dex-based builds. You are netting pounce, +4 dex, +4 AC, +2 con, and an extra attack, for 2 class levels and a couple of feats. Then the recklass rage drops your net Ac by 1, but you have more dex, which means more accuracy. And damage, if you are doing it right.
What is really funny is combining it with righteous wrath. "I can't quite get this lock...." *reckless righteous whirling rage!* "Ah, there we go!"

Hahaha. Right, that makes total sense...

[Hiro Protagonest]

I like combining it with frantic rage, and make the strength into dex.
Hello AC, nice to meet you.
Its useful to throw into dex-based builds. You are netting pounce, +4 dex, +4 AC, +2 con, and an extra attack, for 2 class levels and a couple of feats. Then the recklass rage drops your net Ac by 1, but you have more dex, which means more accuracy. And damage, if you are doing it right.
What is really funny is combining it with righteous wrath. "I can't quite get this lock...." *reckless righteous whirling rage!* "Ah, there we go!"

I think we've found the archer barbarian.

[JackRackham]

I never crunched numbers on Whirling Vs Rage... however I did noticed one BIG advantage [IMO] that it gives over Rage.

Namely, as far as I can tell, it keeps Frenzied Berserker in check. It says that you can't use it while using similar abilities... To me this can be interpreted backwards as well, as in=> While you are in WF, you can't enter other forms of rage/other maniacal abilities. So if you combine this with Immediate Rage, you can prevent yourself from going nuts and TPKing w/ immediate action.

A trap hit you? => WF before that spike/acid/etc. hit your face (and you get Reflex bonus!) and not Frenzy.

This also allows you to pace yourself and not "Nova Out" on a minor fight. It does put a strain on your top performance a bit, but its just few points in str. Lets be honest, most FBs invent ways to STOP/NOT Frenzy as their insane power attack is plenty enough to cleave almost anything a new $%#hole.

Also with Extra Rage, you can get yourself 4 WF per day even with 1-2 Levels of Barbarian ^^. *It does all end up feat hungry, but IMO not too bad*

P.S. BTW, would Whirling Frenzy be improved with Goliath Barbarian as well?O_o I see no reason why it wouldn't. Now that would be very nice use for it ^^

A build with all that + 6 levels of dungeoncrasher with knockback (assuming a goliath would qualify) would be stupid good. Easy-peasy to fit it in 20, too, since you'd only need a couple levels of barbarian.

[Mystify]

I think we've found the archer barbarian.

Yes, I did that once. It offended my friend when I showed it to him.

[Rossebay]

Yes, I did that once. It offended my friend when I showed it to him.

Why? It's just a sort of trance of accuracy. Combat focus, if you will.

[Mystify]

Why? It's just a sort of trance of accuracy. Combat focus, if you will.
It didn't fit their notion of what a barbarian did.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It didn't fit their notion of what a barbarian did.

I hate class=stereotype. This isn't even class=profession, because the barbarian is a hunter and warrior for his tribe.

[Mystify]

I hate class=stereotype. This isn't even class=profession, because the barbarian is a hunter and warrior for his tribe.
You don't have to tell me. I'll make my character do whatever I feel like. If I want to kill you with bananas, I don't care how little fluff sense it makes, I will do it.

[Rossebay]

You don't have to tell me. I'll make my character do whatever I feel like. If I want to kill you with bananas, I don't care how little fluff sense it makes, I will do it.

Yes!

So, can Barbarians not spend the skill points to read because they don't like it?

[Mystify]

Yes!

So, can Barbarians not spend the skill points to read because they don't like it?
Nothing says you have to read. Illiterate barbarian is the default.

[Socratov]

Why? It's just a sort of trance of accuracy. Combat focus, if you will.

more like: "FIRE ALL THE ARROWS!!!!!!" (http://troll.me/fire-all-the-arrows/)

[Coidzor]

Nothing says you have to read. Illiterate barbarian is the default.

I think he was asking if this friend of yours got prissy over barbarians that could read.

[Mystify]

I think he was asking if this friend of yours got prissy over barbarians that could read.

Ah. That didn't bother them. It was just the idea of them being a master archer that offended them.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Sometimes yes sometimes n

[Rossebay]

I think he was asking if this friend of yours got prissy over barbarians that could read.

This was exactly my question.