[3.5] Need help picking character for campaign

[macdaddy]

We have a 3.5 campaign that is about to begin, with all of us at 1st level. :)

My rolled stats are:
================
18, 14, 14, 14, 13, 11

I have just found out what the rest of the players are taking for characters.
======================
2 Barbarians (2-handed great swords) The barbarian brothers.
1 Dwarf (Axe & Tower Shield)
1 Wizard, evocation specialization
1 Rogue
1 Druid
1 Cleric (I think he wants to go the Mystic Theurge route)

All of the main roles in the party are covered. At heart, I am a min/max power gamer, so I don't really want to be the heal b*tch.

I was thinking of playing a Gish or Druid, but always have trouble picking. The last two campaigns I was in I played total non-spell caster fighters. That's why I was leaning towards something a little different.

So, what would be cool to play? What would synergize well with the rest of the party?

[Gwendol]

I suggest Beguiler or Bard. Possibly Ranger and specifically going archer and maybe swift hunter (dual classing Ranger/Scout).

Ranged fighter seems not be very well covered.

Bard will make everyone happy, especially the melee, rogue and druid (and cleric should he find himself using a weapon).

Beguiler... well it's a cool class, and can work well with rogue (team infiltrator).

[Amphetryon]

What sources are allowed?

Your party is a little light on Arcane magic, relatively speaking. For something "cool" that synergizes with the rest of the party without stepping on other party roles, you might consider Dread Necromancer into Anima Mage, which would let you be a debuff-style Gish and avoid anyone else's apparent area of expertise.

If you're playing a Core game, a Specialist Necromancer can fill a debuff role as well.

[sonofzeal]

THUS SPAKE THE RNG:

Underfolk Spirit Shaman who worships the Moon Goddess of Amazons, and who wishes to become an Abolisher some day.

THE RNG HAS SPRAKEN

[Whisper rider]

Bard/archivist/lore master!
Bard/wizard (focused specialist conjuration)/lore master
It would be a great booster...
Just make sure to get.. Badge of valor (MIC), Song from the heart, max out your knowledges.. And use magic device.. And it will be a pretty awesome charcater to play..

Dread necromancer.. Eventually with rod of undead mastery... Can control 198HD of undeads.

Halfling ranged paladin it's fun to play...

Cloistered cleric, metamagic expert?

Cleric, crafter?

Factotum (dungeonscape)/chameleon... You'll be all-in-one party :)

Any ways... You now got the posibility to explore your options now that all other main roles are taken.. You can be what ever do you want.. Any concept character that you have always thought about, but never tryed to play, just because it was some how a "weird" PC, or not as effective as the other but way more flavorfull. i'll recomend you to go through Some books... Looking at the PrC... If you find anything you like, make your character concept aiming to eventually get in to the PrC as soon as possible... That way you won't end up, try to find out how to make it happen later... If you like arcane magic.. Complete Mage have some very interesting options (ultimate magus sounds like fun, of course you lose spell lvl.. But you wont run out of spells ever jaja... The unseen seer i think is really good aussi)... If you like divine magic... There's the complete divine... The web enchancement brings a lot of nice stuff.. Or just go tumbling around between books, until you find something of your liking, Making PCs it's always fun.

[DrDeth]

Generalist wizard or sorc. Find some cool bloodline for the sorc, and you’re in. Do conjuration, battlefield control, buffing, debuffing, anything but evoc.

[rmg22893]

Eight PCs? Sheesh.

[gbprime]

I second the Beguiler suggestion.

not only do you back up the rogue (rogue does the traps, you do the social) but you also complement the wizard (he blasts, you haste/slow/confuse). You might even work up the feat chain for Reactive Counterspell as another "save the party's butts" option.

[Particle_Man]

Are you that concerned with min/maxing? And if so are you thinking in terms of min/maxing to be the most badass in the party or min/maxing for the good of the party?

As a rule of thumb, the more combatants you have (and with 3 front line fighters, a druid (likely with animal companion) and a cleric, you have a lot, independent of the rogue going for SA), the more useful a buffer like a bard will be. So that could help the party.

From the Gish Pov, I have heard good things about the PHB II Duskblade. Psychic Warrior is also a Gish option.

If you want to make the fighter and barbarians cry, take a Warblade or Crusader. Actually, if you take a lot of the White Raven stuff, you can be the "Fighter that buffs fellow meelee fighters" and they will love you so much that they won't care that you are more badass than they are. Best of both worlds. :)

If you care less about power and just want to go for style, try Warlock. :)

Or you could be "that guy" and go for something really weird, since the bases are pretty much covered anyhow. Maybe one of the Magic of Incarnum classes with Vow of Poverty. :)

Anyhow, if it is core only (and it might be, from the other party members' classes) I would recommend Bard, as that is fairly Gishy, has great social skills, helps the party with abilities and with spells the evoker might not have due to a banned school, and you already have a druid in the party. And Bardic Knowledge is a great "Hail Mary" when no one has the right knowledge skill for a situation. You don't have to be the heal-bot if you don't chose cure spells on your personal known spell list. :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Bard, take something like (Savage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ) Bard 8/ Mindbender* 1/ Sorcerer* 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Paragnostic Apostle 1/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7.

Use Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, and that Sorcerer level should use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level in Races of the Dragon to get Draconic Heritage (sonic). Alternatively, you could be good-aligned and replace the Mindbender level with something else, Warblade would be extremely beneficial.

Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), your feats should be Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, Lingering Song, Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Song of the Heart, Spell Focus: Abjuration, Mindsight or Words of Creation, Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration, and whatever else you want at 15 and 18.

Learn the spell Inspirational Boost at 2nd level, and get a Badge of Valor asap. You can cast Inspirational Boost (swift), Inspire Courage (standard) to grant a bonus to attack and damage, and have a move action remaining the first round. The next round you can stop inspiring and that one will last 10 more rounds, and then Inspirational Boost (swift), Inspire Courage (standard) with Dragonfire Inspiration, use a move action, and then activate your Badge of Valor to increase your DFI by +1 (immediate). At 2nd level, this will grant your party +2 to attack and damage and +3d6 fire damage; at 3rd level, it will be +3 to attack and damage and +4d6 fire.

In the early levels it's easy to run out of Inspire Courage uses. You could keep that DFI inspire going until the next encounter starts, then on the first round stop inspiring (it will last 10 more rounds), and use Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage + Badge of Valor and everyone will get +4d6 and +4 to attack and damage for 10 rounds. You can then keep that Inspire Courage going until the next encounter. Note that enemies will probably hear you coming a mile away, but you party will be so buffed it won't really matter.

You should also get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) at some point, just for style points. A Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) is also highly recommended, as is a Lesser Rod of Extend for spells like Glitterdust and Haste. Play as mostly a Batman, buffing the party and debuffing opponents and leave all the damage dealing up to the rest of the party.

[macdaddy]

Ok, so Bard sounds like a good option then. Be able to buff the party and add in some spell support, maybe ftr support and turn him into a gish type anyway. :)

I have access to the CORE books(PHB I&II, DMG I&II), plus all the Complete XXX books(Adventurwer, Arcane, Champion, Divine, Mage, Scoundrel, Warrior), plus the Spell compendium. NO esoteric/fringe books (Exalted Deeds, Races of the wild, Races of Stone, dragon races, etc).

So, I did some searching and didn't really find much about bard builds. What is a good one? What about feats? I know Melodic casting will be a certainty, but no idea of what else (Dragon inspiration is out, don;t have access to that book)

So what kind of bard build would be good? is there one that can fight and gets access to high level spells?

[hex0]

So what kind of bard build would be good? is there one that can fight and gets access to high level spells?

Well, you do have access to Sublime Chord at least. I'd go Bard, possibly picking up some Virtuoso then going into Sublime Chord! :smallamused:

[Anxe]

Shifter Wizard into Rage Mage. Use all your spells to buff yourself and then enter the fray! Take only shifter feats and feats that make your buffs better (Extend, Persist).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a Bard, it looks somewhat grim: No BoED so no Words of Creation; no Dragon Magic so no DFI; ECS isn't on your list so probably no Song of the Heart; and MIC isn't listed there either so maybe not even a Badge of Valor, as the older CV version doesn't even boost your Inspire Courage. You have Spell Compendium, but Inspirational Boost alone isn't exactly enough to make Bard a better choice than a more focused Batman or a standard Gish build.

With all those things I listed, your Inspire Courage will be +3 at 2nd level, +4 at 3rd level, +7 at 6th level, and +9 at 8th level. With just Inspirational Boost, you'll only get +2 at 2nd level and +3 at 8th level. It's a shame really, since with this party composition it would have been a huge boost.

If you want to make a Gish, go with either the Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 build, or use the Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Eldritch Knight 6. Start out with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon and always try to stay behind someone else, you'll be amazing once you get Power Attack + Wraithstrike and a few Lesser Rods of Extend. Note that spontaneously casting a spell with metamagic only increases the casting time if it was originally a standard action or longer, so a Sorcerer using Extended Wraithstrike still does so as a swift action. Get Metamagic Specialist in PH2 for Sorcerer, with (Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)) Wizard you should (focused) specialize in Transmutation with the PH2 ACF.

For a Batman, I'd go Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Paragnostic Apostle and then more PrCs just depending. Get Abrupt Jaunt from PH2, and use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) if possible to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll.

[macdaddy]

Good point. Without access to all the shenanigans, the bards buffing will be pretty limited. I might be able to talk him into a feat or magic item, but once he sees everyone getting +4/5 per round at lvl 3, he will start yanking stuff away.

So, I suppose a Gish will still be a solid character.

So, the question then becomes Ftr 2/Wiz 4 or Pal 2/Sorc 4 as the base. Paladin gives you a good boost to your saves, but would have to play as LG (no paladin of freedom). Wizard gives you nearly the same number of spells as a focused specialist, higher level spells a little earlier, and more feats, so you can make use of something like knowledge devotion.

Ftr 2/ Wiz 4 (maybe do Wiz1, Ftr 2, Wiz 3 for skill point purposes?)
1. Power Attack, H: Improved Initiative, F: Combat Reflexes
2. Combat Expertise
3. Knowledge Devotion?? (not sure how good this would be, probably only have religion, planes, and arcane as knowledge skills, so could do something else instead)
MW: Improved Trip
6. Combat Casting (pre-req)
9. Arcane Strike
12. Minor Shapeshift
15.
18.


Pal 2/ Sorc 4
1. Power Attack H. Combat Reflexes
3. Improved Init or practiced spell caster(probably take this because access to nerveskitter spell that provides a boost like improved init),
Sorc: Metamagic specialist
6. Combat Casting (pre-req)
9. Arcane Strike or Travel devotion
12. Minor shapeshift
15. Divine Might
18. Robilars gambit? or something. Its pretty far out so not a big deal


The feats on the first build are obviously pretty cool. Wield a halberd, enlarge self and then proceed to trip opponents and wail on them with full power attack, plus AOO, and let other fighters wail on them too. Use wraithstrike in other cases.

While I like the Pal/Sorc, having to be lawful good takes a lot of the fun out of spells like alter self.

Which build would you pick? Or would you take some different feats?

[macdaddy]

**deleted - Double Post ****

[Particle_Man]

So, I suppose a Gish will still be a solid character.

So, the question then becomes Ftr 2/Wiz 4 or Pal 2/Sorc 4 as the base.

I would strongly recommend that for a Gish build, you go with Duskblade from PHB II and you will keep full BAB and have spells (including spells you can put through your weapon attacks). At least have a look at it. :)

[Randomguy]

Am I the only one who found it funny that you put "dwarf" as a class? :smallbiggrin:

Warlock, beguiler, duskblade, factotum and bard would all fit in nicely.

SOTAO Mystic wildshape ranger with a trapfinding ACF going into master of many forms would work. Cover ALL the rolls! It's especially good at lower levels.

Either Ranger 5/MoM 10/Ab Champ 5 or Ranger 5/Ab Champ 5/MoM 10, depending on if you like spellcasting or wildshape better. Probably Str 18 Con 14 Dex 14 Int 14 Wis 13 Cha 11, or something.

[GreenSerpent]

Could always try Gray Elf Warlock / Generalist Wizard / Eldritch Theurge. Or Wizard / Sorceror / Ultimate Magus.

Or, one of my possible favourites, Warlock / Ur-Priest / Eldritch Disciple.

[Coidzor]

All of the main roles in the party are covered. At heart, I am a min/max power gamer, so I don't really want to be the heal b*tch.

Welp, you already have both a cleric and a druid, dude. You have nothing to worry about there. :smallconfused:

Also, even if you were the sole cleric, (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29) you wouldn't have to worry about this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55951) unless the DM and other players are all asses. And if they are all jerks, then why would you play with them? :smalltongue:

With that many people with the ability to hit things and the predisposition to hit things, optimized inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) is definitely one tactic that should do well there.

[macdaddy]

dragonfire inspiration is not allowed. Neither are many of the buffs to inspire courage, thus no go on the bard.

Screw it, here is what I am going to do:

Stats:
S: 14, D: 14, C: 14, I: 18, W: 10, Chr 13

Wiz 1/ Ftr 2/ Wiz 3/ Spell Sword 1/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

Wizard: Focus Specialist Transmuter, ACF: Martial Wizard
Fighter: ACF: Lose Med/Hvy armor for casting in light armor Ftr lvl + 1 spell level. That will carry me until spell sword

Feats:
H. Practiced Spellcaster
1. Power Attack
1 (Martial Wizard) - Combat Reflexes
F1: Combat Expertise
F2: Improved Trip
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Combat Casting
9. Arcane Strike
12. Minor Shapeshift
15. Improved Familiar(??)
18. Robilar Gambit??

by taking wizard @ 1st level, my 5 knowledge skills can effectively be 1 less than a class skill max; thus making knowledge devotion a solid feat choice.

[macdaddy]

So, any follow up?

It looks like the system never recognized my last post. It still shows as last edited by Coidzor.....

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can't give up your medium/heavy armor proficiency for the Fighter ACF, those proficiencies are a prerequisite for Spellsword.

Be sure to get the PH2 ACF for Wizard, it's extremely useful in the low levels.

Since you can't use Dungeoncrasher, the better build would probably be Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ (race) Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion etc. Be sure to include one or two levels of Paragnostic Apostle, for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness.

Use a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes in the lower levels. Stick to spells that don't have somatic components and thus don't suffer ASF until you get Luminous Armor, or get a Lesser Rod of Still Spell, they're surprisingly cheap.