[PF] How to deal with: Intimidate

[Keneth]

Ok, so this is the second entry in the series, there's a lot of things you have to pay attention to when building your villain and intimidate is certainly one of them. Intimidate is an insane skill, especially in Pathfinder with the thug's Frightening ability and feats like Enforcer.

So, how does one combat this nuisance? Immunity to fear or mind-affecting effects seem like the obvious solutions but are apparently hard to get in PF.

[CTrees]

The demoralize ability of intimidate isn't that bad, on its own, and the attitude improving version takes a minute per attempt (thus, irrelevant in combat). It's when other actions turn it into a fear effect, or when Antagonize is used, that it gets crazy.

Also... immunity to mind affecting abilities might not prevent intimidate. Most uses aren't flagged as mind affecting, so... I'm really not sure, though. For fear effects, remember that language is not a barrier. Unfortunately, yeah, it's a little tougher to be fear-immune. The skill IS kinda mean.

[Keneth]

The normal demoralize ability isn't that bad, it's not hard to deal with the shaken condition but when that ability turns into the frightened condition every time you get hit by nonlethal damage or when someone uses Antagonize, as you've said yourself, it gets pretty ridiculous.

As a DM you have the privilege of saying "it has no effect" when someone tries to intimidate your carefully built villain but what I'm looking for are legitimate ways to justify that.

[Keneth]

Huh, no more replies. Are there no effective ways to deal with this problem or does everyone consider this not to be problematic? :smallamused:

[Engine]

Huh, no more replies. Are there no effective ways to deal with this problem or does everyone consider this not to be problematic? :smallamused:

Cause Fear and similar spells have the mind-affecting Spell Descriptor. I would say that immunity to mind-affecting effects should do the job for the various use of Intimidate.
Anyway I do not find problematic the use of Intimidate. Why Intimidate is insane?:smallconfused:

(Yup, Antagonize is a crazy feat. It's a nonsense that a Wizard or an archer should try to melee you just because, you know, you're scary)

[CigarPete]

Cause Fear and similar spells have the mind-affecting Spell Descriptor. I would say that immunity to mind-affecting effects should do the job for the various use of Intimidate.
Anyway I do not find problematic the use of Intimidate. Why Intimidate is insane?:smallconfused:

(Yup, Antagonize is a crazy feat. It's a nonsense that a Wizard or an archer should try to melee you just because, you know, you're scary)

Antagonize is not about being scary, it's about pissing them off so much they are unable to do anything but attack you physically. I just think there should be at least a will save or something to realize this is likely suicide.

[Keneth]

I would say that immunity to mind-affecting effects should do the job for the various use of Intimidate. Yes, but how you could come about such a thing? You won't exactly find it lying around on the floor. Constructs, oozes, plants, and undead get it but aside from the occasional undead, these aren't exactly great villain choices.


Why Intimidate is insane? :smallconfused: If you don't think Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) or Frightening (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/thug) count as insane abilities with the DC being so low that it's virtually impossible to fail, then what exactly do you consider insane?

As far as I can tell there are no spells or items that make you immune to fear effects or mind-affecting abilities. Plus, the skill description of Intimidate no longer includes this little bit like it did in 3.5e.

Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear).

The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.
So spells that give you a bonus to resist fear or mind-affecting effects no longer seem to do anything in respect to Intimidate. :smallconfused:

[DigoDragon]

Is there a specific instance in your game(s) that could help with understanding the nuisance at hand?

The skill in 3.5 can cause an opponent to be shaken for one round in combat, but there is an opposed roll to counter it. By far I see it more used to force information out of mooks on where the BBEG is and can be useful to move the plot along in that regard.
On the other hand, some people may simply not know the information no matter how well you intimidate them.

[Engine]

Yes, but how you could come about such a thing? You won't exactly find it lying around on the floor. Constructs, oozes, plants, and undead get it but aside from the occasional undead, these aren't exactly great villain choices.

Well, Paladin and Chevalier are classes that give you immunity to fear.
Qlippoths and Inevitable are immune to mind-affecting effects. There are probably other monsters that have this kind of immunity.


If you don't think Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) or Frightening (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/thug) count as insane abilities with the DC being so low that it's virtually impossible to fail, then what exactly do you consider insane?

Antagonize is a stupid feat just because the target has to attack in melee. Frightening, well, no. I do not find it so insane. Good, you could make people flee. Well, the Wizard or the Bard could do that, too (thanks to spellcasting).
It's nice, sure. It's powerful, sure. Gamebreaking? Not so sure.

[subject42]

Yes, but how you could come about such a thing? You won't exactly find it lying around on the floor. Constructs, oozes, plants, and undead get it but aside from the occasional undead, these aren't exactly great villain choices.

It's not always thematically viable for enemies, but Paladins are straight-up immune to fear. As a result, they can't be intimidated.

Additionally, greater heroism grants fear immunity.

[Keneth]

Frightening, well, no. I do not find it so insane. Good, you could make people flee. Well, the Wizard or the Bard could do that, too (thanks to spellcasting).
It's nice, sure. It's powerful, sure. Gamebreaking? Not so sure. How is forcing you to flee not gamebreaking? It effectively ends the fight because you can't do anything but run away and you can lock just about any creature into this state. Sure, a wizard can do that with a spell but a spell has a relatively low DC, allows spell resistance, depends on your roll as well, and there's plenty of ways to deal with spells. Intimidate is just a skill and can easily be buffed to insane bonuses.

A qlippoth enemy could be a nice idea though... Perhaps even introducing a sanity mechanic to the game. :belkar:


Additionally, greater heroism grants fear immunity.Thank you, I totally forgot about that one, I thought it was a straight up bonus against fear effects like remove fear.

[jindra34]

The big issue is the DC uses hit dice which most enemies have more of than the an appropriate PC will have levels. So the basic rolls will be uphill and getting a long duration is going to be insanely hard.

[Keneth]

Ok, let's say you have a bard with a reasonably high Charisma (lvl10 with Cha 22 for the sake of the argument). You have max ranks in Intimidate plus a few random bonuses (let's say you're a half-orc and you've cast heroism on yourself) which puts you at about +23 to Intimidate checks.

Now let's say there's an opponent that's 5 levels higher and doesn't have a stellar Wisdom score (let's say 16, which is already a bunch). The DC to Intimidate this particular guy is 28. That means with no particular optimization of the Intimidate skill, you have to roll a 5 to succeed.

And you'd better hope the villain is extremely hard to hit because if the character took the Enforcer feat and multiclassed into a Thug, you're pretty much done.

The DC is way too low. It should have been + Will save instead of Wisdom bonus at the very least and probably some extra stuff.

[Gnaeus]

The big issue is the DC uses hit dice which most enemies have more of than the an appropriate PC will have levels. So the basic rolls will be uphill and getting a long duration is going to be insanely hard.

Not really. At level 6, my Sorcerer has +6 (Ranks), +3 (Class skill), +7 (Charisma of 25 including his headband +4, or he could have used eagles splendor), +2 Persuasive feat, +5 raiment of command spell. Thats a +23 for 6 hours per day. If I cast Enlarge Person, had my familiar Aid me, and used a masterwork item, I would be at +31. I can intimidate most bosses for the entire duration of combat.

By level 10, I can add +4 (ranks), +1 (Cha +6 item), +1 (natural Cha Boost), +6 (Skill Focus), +2 (Persuasive gets better at 10 ranks). For a total of +45 at level 10. At that point, if I am fighting a 20hd boss with a +1 wisdom mod, I intimidate for 4 rounds if I roll a 2. And the only real investments were 2-3 feats (3 includes Antagonize), charisma maxing strategies that any sorc will use ANYWAY, and first and second level spells.

Now, for my character, that is basically just a small debuff + a bonus for my save or lose spells. But if I wanted to invest in it, it wouldn't be hard. And Persuasive and Charisma maxing also aids in Diplomancy, which also doesn't suck.

[jmelesky]

The DC is way too low. It should have been + Will save instead of Wisdom bonus at the very least and probably some extra stuff.

The DCs are based on low-OP characters for the 1-7 level range, iirc (which is a holdover from 3.5ed). Which is not ideal. I don't think it's broken, though. The shaken condition is not that debilitating, nor hard to get rid of.

I agree the DC should be calculated differently, though i personally think it should be 10 + HD + Sense Motive. That defaults to Wis, and makes it much easier to defend against for those who are interested in doing so.


Not really. At level 6, my Sorcerer has +6 (Ranks), +3 (Class skill), +7 (Charisma of 25 including his headband +4, or he could have used eagles splendor), +2 Persuasive feat, +5 raiment of command spell. Thats a +23 for 6 hours per day. If I cast Enlarge Person, had my familiar Aid me, and used a masterwork item, I would be at +31. I can intimidate most bosses for the entire duration of combat.

And you're not even an Inquisitor. They get a half level bonus to Intimidate and Sense Motive, which more than makes up for the fact that they're not likely to optimize for Charisma. Plus they get access to some inquisitor-specific intimidation feats.

[Keneth]

The shaken condition is not that debilitating, nor hard to get rid of. Yes, but like it's been pointed out in this thread, you can do far worse than spread around the shaken condition.

[jmelesky]

Yes, but like it's been pointed out in this thread, you can do far worse than spread around the shaken condition.

Yeah, but it takes work to do it. First, make a character that focuses on Intimidate (which comes at the expense of other stuff, generally speaking, even in the case of Charisma-based classes). Next, actually using it in combat requires a standard action, and it only works against a single target per action.

So, making one enemy per round shaken is a pretty legit thing tradeoff, as far as i'm concerned. A caster could do far worse, and generally has the luxury of targetting different attributes (by requiring Fort or Reflex saves, for example) and/or using no-save effects. And a spell effect is likely to last longer than the shaken effect, so you don't have to re-cast as often as the intimidator needs to re-demoralize.

Now, there are feats that you can take to reduce the action cost, or to affect more than one target per attempt. Once that starts happening, you're going to see an increase in number of shaken foes.

But, again, that seems fine to me, considering the character-building requirements (specifically: spending feats (or rage powers, or whatnot) on doing that instead of, say, improving ability to attack, or attach nastier conditions to successful attacks (like Dazing Assault, or Staggering Critical).

In short, it may seem overpowered, but it requires effort and is still not as good as spellcasting at similar levels. So it doesn't seem at all broken to me.

[Gnaeus]

In short, it may seem overpowered, but it requires effort and is still not as good as spellcasting at similar levels. So it doesn't seem at all broken to me.

I agree with this. I was only arguing that it isn't difficult to do. Antagonize may be broken, but Intimidate is not.

[Engine]

How is forcing you to flee not gamebreaking? It effectively ends the fight because you can't do anything but run away and you can lock just about any creature into this state. Sure, a wizard can do that with a spell but a spell has a relatively low DC, allows spell resistance, depends on your roll as well, and there's plenty of ways to deal with spells. Intimidate is just a skill and can easily be buffed to insane bonuses.

It's still one trick, pal. And you need to be in melee to use Frightening with Enforcer. It's a strong combination, but it's still just one combination.

[Chained Birds]

I made a very charismatic Barbarian who wanted to have very high Intimidate.

I took the Feats as Follows:
Flaw/ Intimidating Prowess (Useful and would replace my 5th level feat if Flaws weren't allowed)
Flaw/ Endurance (Necessary for Horizon Walker Prc)
1st/ Power Attack
3rd/ Furious Focus
5th/ Raging Vitality
7th/ Cornugon Smash

Without Flaws
1st/ Power Attack
3rd/ Furious Focus
5th/ Intimidating Prowess
7th/ Cornugon Smash

So, I Had 19 Intimidate (Due to a +5 Strength Mod + 2 Charisma Mod + 7 Ranks + 3 Class Skill + 2 Half-Orc Racial) Pre-Buff and Pre-Rage.
With normal buffing items: +2 From Bull's Strength and +2 From Rage
I can get it to 23 making me able to intimidate most anything my Level and then some. Also, with at least 2 attack per round (1 without penalty from Power Attack), I can almost always hit my enemy/enemies and Frighten at least 1 guy if I concentrated both attacks on him/her.
Yes, not the greatest Barbarian ever, but he can at least do his Barbarian job well and intimidate enemies on the side.

Antagonize wasn't out yet when I made this Barbarian, and my DM was already too shocked by the fact I intimidated a higher level Demon by just looking at him funny. I think Antagonize would have drove him off the edge. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Also, with at least 2 attack per round (1 without penalty from Power Attack), I can almost always hit my enemy/enemies and Frighten at least 1 guy if I concentrated both attacks on him/her.

Used a rage power to get shaken to stack to make frightened then?

[SpaceBadger]

Chained Birds, why didn't you get the Rage Power of Intimidating Glare? Fun in combat!

Keneth, I can see how Intimidate could get crazy at high levels w lots of ranks in it, but at low levels it is just a fun thing to do sometimes, not consistent enough to break anything.

We even houseruled that anyone can choose (at character creation, or first time putting any ranks in Intimidate) to use either their Strength bonus or Charisma bonus on it, but not both (need Intimidating Prowess feat to add both). It just seemed silly to us that a high-Cha wimp was by RAW more intimidating than a low-Cha muscle-goon.

[Keneth]

Keneth, I can see how Intimidate could get crazy at high levels w lots of ranks in it, but at low levels it is just a fun thing to do sometimes, not consistent enough to break anything. That's pretty much the case with everything in D&D and I'm not trying to argue otherwise. This is a hypothetical case that assumes a character optimized Intimidate with all the shenanigans that come with it and I'm interested in as many ways to deal with it as I can find, so that if and when the time comes, I can laugh maniacally as a player tries to stare me down in futility. :smallwink: