View Full Version : Glaring similarity between Ian Starshine and Tarquin
Procyonpi
2012-02-17, 11:50 AM
Okay, so I get that they're basically the archetypes of chaotic good and lawful evil. But does anyone else fond it ironic that they both assume the story revolves around them? I mean Ian thinks that Tarquin is using Haley to get at him, and Tarquin assumes that since his son showed up, the story with the gates must revolve around him, and doesn't even bother to ask who else might be looking for the gate that has the order so anxious to find it, like, say, an EPIC LEVEL LICH. The two differ on a lot of things, but ego is not one of them.
SpaceBadger
2012-02-17, 12:49 PM
Most people think "the story" revolves around them. Oh, sure, if they stop and think a moment and get philosphical, most will concede that they are not really the center of the universe, but how many people really go through life thinking that someone else is the star of the show and they are just a sidekick or bit-part?
Morty
2012-02-17, 12:54 PM
They're both highly egotic, yes, but I wouldn't call it a "glaring similarity". It's too common a trait.
Tarquin and Ian's alignment are like Elan and Nale (lawful evil vs chaotic good).
hamishspence
2012-02-17, 01:06 PM
Most people think "the story" revolves around them. Oh, sure, if they stop and think a moment and get philosphical, most will concede that they are not really the center of the universe, but how many people really go through life thinking that someone else is the star of the show and they are just a sidekick or bit-part?
Danny from Last Action Hero does catch on after a while "in a movie universe"
Danny: (attempting to bluff a car into turning aside by riding at it on a bike)
"This has got to work! I'm in a movie. I'm a good guy. This has got to work!"
(pause for realization)
Danny: "I'm a comedy sidekick! It's not gonna wooooooork!!"
suzaliscious
2012-02-17, 01:13 PM
Actually, this is inaccurate on both counts.
Ian Starshine isn't egotic, he's paranoid. This does involve being self-centric - an "Everyone is out to get ME!" mentality usually does - but does not necessarily involve being egotistic. One could argue that since he THINKS he's important enough for the world to target makes him an egoist - and I'd agree, but that's a rather fine point.
Tarquin, on the other hand, has never assumed the story's about him. He's always assumed he's a villain - but up until Elan showed up he didn't think he'd be the biggest thing to go down in legend ("And I was fine with that when I though it would be some lowly peasant taking me out." ~ Tarquin.) Tarquin's assumed that the story is all about his SON. He's a proud father glad to be part of his son's legend - but he never assumed it would be all about him.
Oh, I'm not saying Tarquin isn't an egomaniac. He probably totally is. However he's not an egomaniac in the way the OP described and certainly not the same way Ian Starshine is.
Also remember that Tarquin actually condemns Nale for being an overt egomaniac, assuming everything is about him and wanting to assert his superiority over others. So there's that, too.
All in all, no, I think they're fairly different characters, OP. Though I wonder how Tarquin would feel if he found out his son's beloved is Ian's daughter (and since Ian pulled that crap on the brontosaurus, Tarquin will keep him in mind. He didn't amass a three-empire-wide conspiracy by overlooking the finer details.)
Procyonpi
2012-02-17, 01:52 PM
I agree that Tarquin and Ian are pretty different characters, but they have the self-centered thing in common. And just because Tarquin berates Nale for being a Egomaniac doesn't mean that he doesn't let his own ego get in the way of clear planning on occasion. The view that the "the big story" centers around you and your son is pretty egotistical, IMO.
ThePhantasm
2012-02-17, 02:03 PM
I agree that Tarquin and Ian are pretty different characters, but they have the self-centered thing in common. And just because Tarquin berates Nale for being a Egomaniac doesn't mean that he doesn't let his own ego get in the way of clear planning on occasion. The view that the "the big story" centers around you and your son is pretty egotistical, IMO.
You didn't address any of the above arguments about why you've misinterpreted things here, you simply reiterated your opinion.
Tarquin and Ian may be egotistical by some definition, but by that same loose definition then so is Redcloak, and Xykon, and certainly Nale... the list goes on and on. You are striking a surface level parallel between the two. For the parallel to really be profound you need to go into deeper, more precise similarities, and that's something you've yet to prove.
Of course the similarity you've marked is glaring. All general similarities are glaring.
fergo
2012-02-17, 02:07 PM
I agree, it's an interesting point.
In my opinion, the two characters are meant to be in stark contrast with each other.
Partially, I think, it's Rich playing with alignment. Ian shows the dangers of chaoticness, even in a good character, while Tarquin (arguably) shows how lawfulness could have its strengths even in an evil character.
That they have this similarity to highlight that, underneath it all, they're kind of similar characters (if not actually similar people) and they've just been taken in different directions.
By similar characters, I mean that in terms of their relationship with their family, they have had (and I think will continue to have) a similar role in the story.
Sunken Valley
2012-02-17, 05:32 PM
Who is saying Ian is good? He near ruined his daughter's life. He tried to kill Elan. And he's probably going to turn into a spanner in the works in the future. Ian has done nothing Good. Even Eugene only did ambiguous actions after death. Ian is CN.
You know, it doesn't make sense considering that it has been show that the sentient beings are aware of their NPC status and the oots is aware of their PC status. Tarquin and Ian should know they are NPC.
Othesemo
2012-02-17, 05:41 PM
Who is saying Ian is good? He near ruined his daughter's life. He tried to kill Elan. And he's probably going to turn into a spanner in the works in the future. Ian has done nothing Good. Even Eugene only did ambiguous actions after death. Ian is CN.
I believe that his entire goal in the western continent was to oust Tarquin. Haley referred to it as a 'powerful urge for their character archetype' or something to that effect. I assume that that particular archetype is 'Chaotic Good Rogue.' He's a jerk, but he's still good.
Red XIV
2012-02-17, 06:37 PM
Tarquin, on the other hand, has never assumed the story's about him. He's always assumed he's a villain - but up until Elan showed up he didn't think he'd be the biggest thing to go down in legend ("And I was fine with that when I though it would be some lowly peasant taking me out." ~ Tarquin.) Tarquin's assumed that the story is all about his SON. He's a proud father glad to be part of his son's legend - but he never assumed it would be all about him.
Oh, I'm not saying Tarquin isn't an egomaniac. He probably totally is. However he's not an egomaniac in the way the OP described and certainly not the same way Ian Starshine is.
Also remember that Tarquin actually condemns Nale for being an overt egomaniac, assuming everything is about him and wanting to assert his superiority over others. So there's that, too.
The thing is, Tarquin (since he thinks Elan is the main character rather than the sidekick) believes that he's the main villain, rather than a sidequest villain.
ThePhantasm
2012-02-17, 06:54 PM
The thing is, Tarquin (since he thinks Elan is the main character rather than the sidekick) believes that he's the main villain, rather than a sidequest villain.
No, Tarquin recognizes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) that he is not the main villain of this plot.
ti'esar
2012-02-17, 07:00 PM
No, Tarquin recognizes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) that he is not the main villain of this plot.
He establishes next strip that he thinks he's the ultimate villain, though. Xykon is just the bad guy of this current arc; it's Tarquin who Elan's hero career will culminate in defeating.
ThePhantasm
2012-02-17, 07:11 PM
He establishes next strip that he thinks he's the ultimate villain, though. Xykon is just the bad guy of this current arc; it's Tarquin who Elan's hero career will culminate in defeating.
I suppose you could read it that way. I understood Tarquin as referring to two separate stories. Basically finish up this plotline (not arc, but plot) and come back and oh boy what a story we'll make together.
What I meant is he doesn't think he is the main villain of THIS plot.
Procyonpi
2012-02-18, 02:17 PM
I suppose you could read it that way. I understood Tarquin as referring to two separate stories. Basically finish up this plotline (not arc, but plot) and come back and oh boy what a story we'll make together.
What I meant is he doesn't think he is the main villain of THIS plot.
Where he's wrong is in thinking that he's a main villain at anything above the subplot level. He thinks that whatever "scenery chewing villain" Elan is facing right now is just a side story to build up his heroic credentials before his final confrontation with his father, rather than an epic sorcerer lich who will crush said father when he gets in between said lich and his Macguffin.
I agree that Tarquin and Ian are pretty different characters, but they have the self-centered thing in common.
So's Eugene.
It seems to be an "Order member's father" thing.
ThePhantasm
2012-02-18, 02:28 PM
Where he's wrong is in thinking that he's a main villain at anything above the subplot level. He thinks that whatever "scenery chewing villain" Elan is facing right now is just a side story to build up his heroic credentials before his final confrontation with his father, rather than an epic sorcerer lich who will crush said father when he gets in between said lich and his Macguffin.
It doesn't really matter how you cut it; the salient point is that Tarquin is egotistical.
That is a generic trait he shares with a multitude of OOTS characters, and doesn't really establish any meaningful parallel between Tarquin and Ian.
Procyonpi
2012-02-18, 04:00 PM
It doesn't really matter how you cut it; the salient point is that Tarquin is egotistical.
That is a generic trait he shares with a multitude of OOTS characters, and doesn't really establish any meaningful parallel between Tarquin and Ian.
But there's a difference between "I think I'm powerful / badass / talented" ego (which a lot of characters, most notably Belkar, V and Nale share) And "I think the whole story revolves around me and my family" ego, the only other major example of which was Miko. Roy used to have it to a minor extent, but since he died he's become much more focused on Xykon and the gates.
suzaliscious
2012-02-19, 01:45 AM
They're both egotistical, fine. Past that you're really just grasping at straws.
If you want to absolutely see it that way, you can.
Aedilred
2012-02-21, 07:42 AM
You know, it doesn't make sense considering that it has been show that the sentient beings are aware of their NPC status and the oots is aware of their PC status. Tarquin and Ian should know they are NPC.
Not necessarily. Tarquin is a former adventurer (as is Eugene) and Ian might be. Eugene and Ian have PC classes and Tarquin almost certainly does (Malack certainly does, so it's logical that Tarquin would).
In the sense that OOtS can be seen as the story for an actual game (which it can't really, making the distinction between PC and NPC less relevant than the distinction between protagonist and antagonist (and main character/supporting character/extra)) then perhaps Tarquin and Ian (and Eugene for that matter) are old PCs recycled for this campaign to give it more of a kick, and they haven't worked out that they've made the transition from PC to NPC. Ian was a first-edition thief, after all, which means that his character predates the start of this campaign.
As I say, though, I think the lack of game "crunch" behind the story makes the PC/NPC distinction a red herring.
zimmerwald1915
2012-02-21, 08:31 AM
I believe that his entire goal in the western continent was to oust Tarquin. Haley referred to it as a 'powerful urge for their character archetype' or something to that effect. I assume that that particular archetype is 'Chaotic Good Rogue.' He's a jerk, but he's still good.
Read 770 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) again. He's not in the Western Continent out of the goodness of his heart. He's doing his sister-in-law a favor.
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