[3.5] New rules for pickpocketing

[Myou]

Since the Sleight of Hand skill makes it pretty easy to steal important items from an opponent, I want to make the skill a little more reasonable - while also giving it the potential for greater scope for those who have really high checks.

What do you think?


To take an item from another creature you must first make a Sleight of Hand check against the check DC of the chosen item. The opponent then makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved. If the opponent detects the attempt they may respond in one of several ways. Your opponent may either chose to try to avoid or counter your attempt.

If your opponent tries to avoid your attempt then they make a reflex save (DC equal to your check result divided by 2), with success in the save meaning that your attempt fails. If your opponent tries to counter your attempt they instead make a Sleight of Hand check of their own. Should their check match or beat your roll then your attempt fails. Should their check beat your check result by ten or more, they may additionally attempt to counter your attempt, initiating a new Sleight of Hand check of their own as a free action, to attempt to steal from you instead.

If you are in combat with the opponent then they may, instead of trying to avoid or counter your attempt, instead make an attack of opportunity against you to disrupt the attempt (assuming that they have not used all of their attacks of opportunity for the round). If this attack hits then your attempt fails (even if the attack does no damage).

Should your opponent fail to notice the attempt, or fail to avoid, counter or disrupt your attempt, you gain the item. An opponent who succeeds on their Spot check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You may attempt to take more than one item at once, by taking a -10 penalty on your check for each additional item, with the DC determined by the most difficult item to take of those you target.

This use of the Sleight of Hand skill is always a swift action, except when used to counter an attempt.

DC to take an item:
DC 20 - unsecure items, such as those held in an open pocket.
DC 30 - items held relatively securely, such as items in a buttoned pocket or pocket with a tight lip.
DC 40 - items firmly attached, such as by a leather strap, a string or a buckle, like a cloak, belt or watch.
DC 60 - items very firmly attached, such as an item on a chain or a helmet.
Items that cannot be removed without the co-operation of the target, such as a shirt or held item, cannot be taken with the Sleight of Hand skill.

[Telonius]

So a DC 40 could allow a Rogue to de-pants his opponent? Love it! :smallbiggrin:

A little bit more seriously, this does seem like it's best used in a non-combat setting. Otherwise, it would be a more dextrous - and probably more successful - way of handling a Disarm action. If you wanted to allow this as a combat option, I'd (at the very least) make the Rogue take something like an "improved pickpocket" feat that would allow him to make the check without drawing an AoO.

[King Atticus]

If you wanted to allow this as a combat option, I'd (at the very least) make the Rogue take something like an "improved pickpocket" feat that would allow him to make the check without drawing an AoO.

I give you cutpurse from DM#322

Cutpurse
Type: General
Sources: Dragon #322
Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1

You are able to pick the pockets of your melee opponents.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Benefit: While engaged in combat, you may attempt to use the Sleight of Hand skill to pickpocket an enemy without provoking an attack of opportunity. This feat allows you to disguise your Sleight of Hand as combat maneuvers.
Normal: Using Sleight of Hand in melee provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Myou]

So a DC 40 could allow a Rogue to de-pants his opponent? Love it! :smallbiggrin:

A little bit more seriously, this does seem like it's best used in a non-combat setting. Otherwise, it would be a more dextrous - and probably more successful - way of handling a Disarm action. If you wanted to allow this as a combat option, I'd (at the very least) make the Rogue take something like an "improved pickpocket" feat that would allow him to make the check without drawing an AoO.

Well he can make your pants fall down, but you'd have to step out of them before he could make off with them. :smallbiggrin:

You can't disarm an opponent with it though - that requires their co-operation, as they would have to let go of the weapon. The only opening would be if they had yet to draw it.

And attack of opportunity would be an interesting idea, I hadn't considered that, since this was meant to be a rule for pickpocketing generally, not specifically in combat. I wonder if an AoO might replace the reflex save option, or be granted too, or be granted as an extra option. I don't want to over complicate things though.

[Telonius]

Well he can make your pants fall down, but you'd have to step out of them before he could make off with them. :smallbiggrin:

You can't disarm an opponent with it though - that requires their co-operation, as they would have to let go of the weapon. The only opening would be if they had yet to draw it.

And attack of opportunity would be an interesting idea, I hadn't considered that, since this was meant to be a rule for pickpocketing generally, not specifically in combat. I wonder if an AoO might replace the reflex save option, or be granted too, or be granted as an extra option. I don't want to over complicate things though.

Sorry, should have clarified - I was talking about the "grabbing items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grabbingItems)" section of Disarm. Normally, that works just like a normal Disarm check, with the attacker getting a +4 bonus if it's "loosely secured." If you want it in your hand, you have to make it as an unarmed attack. So if a Rogue20 is picking the pocket of a Fighter20 with a greatsword, it'll be a cumulative -5 or -9 on the opposed roll (fighter gets +4 for the greatsword, Rogue gets -4 for the unarmed strike, Fighter takes -4 for the item not being a weapon, Rogue gets a +4 if it's "poorly secured," fighter is 5 points of BAB ahead of the Rogue), not taking ability scores, Improved Disarm, or magic items into account.

[Myou]

Sorry, should have clarified - I was talking about the "grabbing items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grabbingItems)" section of Disarm. Normally, that works just like a normal Disarm check, with the attacker getting a +4 bonus if it's "loosely secured." If you want it in your hand, you have to make it as an unarmed attack. So if a Rogue20 is picking the pocket of a Fighter20 with a greatsword, it'll be a cumulative -5 or -9 on the opposed roll (fighter gets +4 for the greatsword, Rogue gets -4 for the unarmed strike, Fighter takes -4 for the item not being a weapon, Rogue gets a +4 if it's "poorly secured," fighter is 5 points of BAB ahead of the Rogue), not taking ability scores, Improved Disarm, or magic items into account.

Ah, I see! I'm not sure this bothers me - the skill ranks needed are high, and most characters aren't likely to be able to use both methods effectively.

[ericgrau]

I always assumed you used disarm in combat and sleight of hand out of combat. And that sleight of hand only works on small things out in the open like coin purses; even taking a weapon is an epic DC check. And the moment your foe sees you, you're in combat so if spotted you could only get one item and then only if your foe didn't recognize you beforehand (stranger, disguise, hiding, etc.).

Adding a reflex save to prevent even the first item from being taken is an interesting limitation, but adding more things that you can take with sleight of hand gives a bit of power to the skill that might become silly. Like epic rogues stripping knights naked without the knight knowing.

[Myou]

I always assumed you used disarm in combat and sleight of hand out of combat. And that sleight of hand only works on small things out in the open like coin purses; even taking a weapon is an epic DC check. And the moment your foe sees you, you're in combat so if spotted you could only get one item and then only if your foe didn't recognize you beforehand (stranger, disguise, hiding, etc.).

Adding a reflex save to prevent even the first item from being taken is an interesting limitation, but adding more things that you can take with sleight of hand gives a bit of power to the skill that might become silly. Like epic rogues stripping knights naked without the knight knowing.

Well, I see disarm and sleight of hand as playing slightly different roles - under these rules sleight of hand literally cannot remove a held item, due to the clause about items that can't be removed without your target's co-operation.

[Mystify]

I think "without the targets cooperation" is open to interpretation. Say, the guard has an axe he is holding. I will put forth that a highly skilled rogue will be able to distract the guard, subtly loosen the character's grip, and take the axe. Its not just about the finesse at that level, it is about manipulating your target. You distract them, drop their pants, and then manipulate them into stepping out of their pants without realizing it.

[jindra34]

I think "without the targets cooperation" is open to interpretation. Say, the guard has an axe he is holding. I will put forth that a highly skilled rogue will be able to distract the guard, subtly loosen the character's grip, and take the axe. Its not just about the finesse at that level, it is about manipulating your target. You distract them, drop their pants, and then manipulate them into stepping out of their pants without realizing it.

And I'd probably rule that it was a combination of Bluff and Sleight of Hand at that point and make you roll both.

[Myou]

I think "without the targets cooperation" is open to interpretation. Say, the guard has an axe he is holding. I will put forth that a highly skilled rogue will be able to distract the guard, subtly loosen the character's grip, and take the axe. Its not just about the finesse at that level, it is about manipulating your target. You distract them, drop their pants, and then manipulate them into stepping out of their pants without realizing it.

That's really not possible. That example has the guard obeying the wishes of the rogue unwittingly. He may not have meant to, but loosening his grip or bending over are both cooperation. Sleight of hand can't control people like that. I'd agree with jindra34, but further, it would be multiple actions, not just a couple of rolls.

[Mystify]

That's really not possible. That example has the guard obeying the wishes of the rogue unwittingly. He may not have meant to, but loosening his grip or bending over are both cooperation. Sleight of hand can't control people like that. I'd agree with jindra34, but further, it would be multiple actions, not just a couple of rolls.
You have never seen the movies where the sleeping guy is clutching an object, and they manage to tickle him a bit so he shifts his grip, and they swap out the items? Its the same concept, only the guy is awake. And its a high level rogue, not some random guy.

[Myou]

You have never seen the movies where the sleeping guy is clutching an object, and they manage to tickle him a bit so he shifts his grip, and they swap out the items? Its the same concept, only the guy is awake. And its a high level rogue, not some random guy.

Where do you tickle a guy to make him take off his pants? :smalltongue:

Anyway, that still requires a certain degree of cooperation. It could work if you made a different skill check first to get the guy into a position where he was vulnerable, but you can't do it with the skill check that's attempting to take the item.

I guess I will try to clarify the line though, just in case anyone tries rules lawyering me in game. XD

[Mystify]

Where do you tickle a guy to make him take off his pants? :smalltongue:

Anyway, that still requires a certain degree of cooperation. It could work if you made a different skill check first to get the guy into a position where he was vulnerable, but you can't do it with the skill check that's attempting to take the item.

I guess I will try to clarify the line though, just in case anyone tries rules lawyering me in game. XD

I don't know how to do it, I don't have a slieght of hand of 60. But sleight of hand already encompasses the physical dexterity as well as the psychological aspect. In fact, I think the psychological aspect of sleight of had is the most important, based on all of the magic trick books I've looked at.
I think you are trying to limit the skill to an overly narrow focus.
Besides, at that level of skill, no living human can hope to match it, or even explain how they are that good. At that level, fighters can walk away from a plane scratch with a minor inconvenience, I think the rogue should be able to pull off sleight of hand feats that you have no clue how its physically performed.

[Myou]

I've added the attack of opportunity option that was suggested. Any further comments?


I don't know how to do it, I don't have a slieght of hand of 60. But sleight of hand already encompasses the physical dexterity as well as the psychological aspect. In fact, I think the psychological aspect of sleight of had is the most important, based on all of the magic trick books I've looked at.
I think you are trying to limit the skill to an overly narrow focus.
Besides, at that level of skill, no living human can hope to match it, or even explain how they are that good. At that level, fighters can walk away from a plane scratch with a minor inconvenience, I think the rogue should be able to pull off sleight of hand feats that you have no clue how its physically performed.

I'm not against feats of skill that defy normality, I'd just make them roll more than one skill check. :smallwink:
After all, no matter how high your skill check result, skilled pickpocketing alone can't make a shirt phase through a target's chest.

I'm not sure how to verbally specify more clearly the limitations though.

[Zaq]

Where do you tickle a guy to make him take off his pants? :smalltongue:


I think we both know the answer to that question.