[3.5] A godless cleric?

[Squidfist]

I've been building a Cleric, and I guess had managed to miss entirely for years the fact that a Cleric doesn't need a god! I did some searching over what sort of weapon the War domain would give me bonuses with, and discovered that a fair amount of people find the idea of a godless cleric to be silly. I personally don't think so, but like to have my characters make sense and have a cohesive backstory, so I wanted know what you guys thought of the idea of a clericless god- is it silly to be granted divine powers without worshiping a god?


Here's some stuff about my character to explain why I think it makes sense.

He's a Cleric of Honor. He grew up in slums, and was disfigured at a young age with an acid splash to the face. He gained a feat, so it wasn't that bad. After feeling like even more of an outcast, being a poor half orc living in somewhat civilized place with only half a face, he left and went to live in solitude to increase his ranks in survival. He prayed, not to any god as he was uneducated, (hardly knows how to read or write), but just for karma to kick in. For his tough life, and devotion to being LG to have some sort of reward, as opposed to punishment. Conveniently for plot, he soon happened by a Cleric who was SO GOOD, he was like "Hey young Orc, guy. Instead of hanging out in these woods, where you'll probably be eaten by a bear, why not... tend to my stables??" Orc-face replied "Holy cap, your charisma is so high, I can't even say no!".

This is getting long, so to summarize; he gets cleric training under this guy, disagrees with this god for one reason or another and decides to say "thanks for all the fish" and go do his own thing. Surprisingly, he retained his power, and a connection with whatever had been feeding him power the whole time, despite saying no thanks to the other guy. He decided the important thing must simply to have pure intentions and good will, and resumed his training now as a nomadic cleric. Partly by himself and meditating, and partly through counseling with others, who didn't care he was godless.

So I guess by these terms, he could be getting his powers from a god, but the god could just like his philosophy, and not care to much about with the details of his name and stuff. So as long as I stay good aligned, I think it makes sense to retain, and progress.

[Urpriest]

Seems like a reasonable example of godless cleric fluff. It's definitely not silly to have a godless cleric, it's right there in the PHB.

That said, if you really want a godless cleric...*glances at Avatar*

[Daer]

Well in eberron clerics get spells even if they don't worship god, or their god is false or they break against their church if i remember correctly.

"Although the gods may not walk among mortals in Eberron there is no shortage of faith. Some argue that it is because of this faith that clerics can cast their divine magic, not because of the gods themselves. Further support for this theory comes from clerics of cults or other non-divine lead religions such as the Lord of Blades who find themselves still able to perform the same abilities as those with more divine inspiration at their behest. Whatever supernatural power clerics tap into on Eberron there is no doubt of the force behind this power and its ability to shape Eberron. "

[Calanon]

Seems like a reasonable example of godless cleric fluff. It's definitely not silly to have a godless cleric, it's right there in the PHB.

That said, if you really want a godless cleric...*glances at Avatar*

I legitimately saw this comment and laughed for a good 5 minutes...

A Godless Cleric is indeed entirely possible, what it looks like is that your Half-Orc fellow would be a cleric of the ideas of Law and Good... which leads me to the idea that he should be Lawful Good... makes sense right? (I like him JUST from the Fluff you made and I usually play evil destructive sadistic characters)

On the topic of Godless Clerics can anyone direct me to a Lord of Hell or Demon Prince that has a deep interest in humanity to the point of actually manipulating humans to give them more influence in there respective domains?

[Urpriest]

On the topic of Godless Clerics can anyone direct me to a Lord of Hell or Demon Prince that has a deep interest in humanity to the point of actually manipulating humans to give them more influence in there respective domains?

Most of them. If you're an Archdevil, your "job" is to tempt mortals to sin to increase hell's ranks. You may actually want to do other stuff, but if you fall behind on that Asmodeus starts looking over your shoulder. Particularly enthusiastic cult-makers among the Archdevils include Mammon, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus himself.

If you're a Demon, you don't have to have an interest in humanity, but many do. Orcus has a big cult, while Graz'zt has a cult that consists of witches he's banged. Malcanthet is interested in spreading her...philosophy...through the material plane, and even a big lug like Demogorgon has certain interests (Savage Tide Adventure Path cough cough).

Edit: Among demons of course the king of this sort of thing is Pazuzu. He's not just for making Pun-Puns.

[Grendus]

Most of them. If you're an Archdevil, your "job" is to tempt mortals to sin to increase hell's ranks.

With the exception of Bel. His job is to run the Blood War so the other Archdevils don't have to.

[Urpriest]

With the exception of Bel. His job is to run the Blood War so the other Archdevils don't have to.

His job is also to tempt mortals to sin, it's just that the Blood War is so important that nobody cares that he just does that all the time. Like a professor who teaches a really crucial course but never does research.

[Calanon]

Most of them. If you're an Archdevil, your "job" is to tempt mortals to sin to increase hell's ranks. You may actually want to do other stuff, but if you fall behind on that Asmodeus starts looking over your shoulder. Particularly enthusiastic cult-makers among the Archdevils include Mammon, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus himself.

If you're a Demon, you don't have to have an interest in humanity, but many do. Orcus has a big cult, while Graz'zt has a cult that consists of witches he's banged. Malcanthet is interested in spreading her...philosophy...through the material plane, and even a big lug like Demogorgon has certain interests (Savage Tide Adventure Path cough cough).

Edit: Among demons of course the king of this sort of thing is Pazuzu. He's not just for making Pun-Puns.

bold means it made me blush :smallredface:

I might use Asmodeus but I'll need another thing to use for his symbol besides Serpent (I'm confident anyone who reads D&D Fluff knows where this is going...)

[Curmudgeon]

I did some searching over what sort of weapon the War domain would give me bonuses with, and discovered that a fair amount of people find the idea of a clericless god to be silly.
No, the basic idea isn't silly. However, asking for the special benefits a War god could grant for their favored weapon without having a either a god or a favored weapon is silly.

Deityless Clerics gain more flexibility. They lose out on some stuff specific to the characteristics of an individual god. That includes the War domain's god-favored weapon, Weapon of the Deity spell, and a few others along the same line. Clerics without a patron can also be neutral much more easily, granting the capability to cast Good, Evil, Chaos, and Law spells, and deciding whether to channel negative or positive energy. But that also means missing out on benefits from spells like the Visage of the Deity line.

[jmelesky]

On the topic of Godless Clerics can anyone direct me to a Lord of Hell or Demon Prince that has a deep interest in humanity to the point of actually manipulating humans to give them more influence in there respective domains?

In Golarion (Paizo's gameworld for Pathfinder), the cult of Asmodeus actually has a whole country under its influence: Cheliax (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Cheliax). It's a pretty interesting take on the topic, and it might be worth looking at their sourcebooks.

[IdleMuse]

Presumably, a cleric of the cause "Spiked Chains are awesome" could get spiked chain proficiency/focus with the War domain.

[Karen Lynn]

Presumably, a cleric of the cause "Spiked Chains are awesome" could get spiked chain proficiency/focus with the War domain.

Shall I continue on this with Rogue/Clerics who champion the cause of "Flying Daggers strike all the unrighteous"?

[Rhatahema]

...They lose out on some stuff specific to the characteristics of an individual god. That includes the War domain's god-favored weapon, Weapon of the Deity spell, and a few others along the same line...

Weapon of the Deity, at least in the Spell Compendium printing, has a section for weapons according to alignment, and it seems to me like this was done specifically to give godless clerics access to the spell.

If I'm interested in the war domain or a similar option, but want to play a cleric without a deity, I usually just pick a god from one of the various settings that has a portfolio similar to my character's ideals, and use their domains, alignment, and favored weapon as an unseen restriction.

Aside from that, another justification for a godless cleric would be the goal of divine ascension, if that's a possibility. Or, as may be the case with your half-orc, the idea that the gods are simply anthropomorphic representations of divine ideals constructed by humanity. A more cynical cleric might believe that these representations and the resulting doctrine were constructed in order to manipulate the population. You could be a new-age spiritualist cleric. Commune tunes into public radio or something.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think a lot of it is a matter of taste, but I also think that a lot of it is due to people having really bad experiences and painting others doing a similar thing with the same brush.

As for the war domain, maybe you should work it into the backstory to get the weapon proficiency. Perhaps, even if he was in the slums, he heard of guards or knights using a particular type of weapon that still helped out the poor, such as a sword or mace. Or, the Half-Orc learned of a legendary hero who was courageous in battle that embodied the ideals the Half-Orc believed in. Either way, he associates that weapon with the virtues he pratices, and gains the war domain that way.