Tin Weapons?

[DementedFellow]

Is there any listing for tin weapons in any of the splat books? Apparently tin cannot rust. You would be effectively immune from rust monsters and could slay them with obnoxious abandon.

Thoughts on this?

[Flickerdart]

Tin isn't really a weapons-grade material.

[Urpriest]

If there are rules for it anywhere, it would be in the Dragon that covered Dark Sun.

That said, why not use another non-ferrous metal that's actually present in weapons in fantasy or history? Why tin?

[DementedFellow]

That said, why not use another non-ferrous metal that's actually present in weapons in fantasy or history? Why tin?

I just discovered this bit of info about tin. And my mind went racing with ideas. Normally, I don't give rust monsters much thought at all. But this caused me to wonder if others had thought of this before.

[Belril Duskwalk]

That said, why not use another non-ferrous metal that's actually present in weapons in fantasy or history? Why tin?

Bronze for example. Mainly copper, but it contains tin. The outer surface of it may oxidize, but the majority of it will not corrode unless the oxidized exterior is disturbed.

[SimonMoon6]

Can't rust monsters "rust" non-ferrous metals anyway?

It's magic so it doesn't have to make sense.

[dgnslyr]

I was curious, so I looked up the Rust Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rustMonster.htm) entry, and it doesn't specify ferrous metal or anything like that, like SimonMoon mentioned. Looks like its rusting property is just magic, so no mundane metals of any sort seem to be spared. Then again, aren't there some special metals that are rust-immune? There was a bluesteel, or something? I remember they were relatively small flat costs on top of a weapon's cost.

[Thurbane]

Tin isn't a great material for making weapons, that why people used to alloy it with copper to make bronze weapons. I'm sure you could use it at a pinch, but I'd call it a -1 to hit and damage, at least.

FWIW, Magic of Faerun has rules for making weapons from specially treated gold or platinum, which are non-ferrous.

[Grendus]

Meh, strip to hide armor and use a greatclub. Rust monsters are kind of pushovers anyways barring that corrode attack.

[Greenish]

There was a bluesteel, or something? I remember they were relatively small flat costs on top of a weapon's cost.Bluesteel (for armour) and Everbright (for weapons) are cheap enhancements from MIC. Not special materials, but then again, all metals in D&D are ferrous, whether that makes sense or not.


Meh, strip to hide armor and use a greatclub. Rust monsters are kind of pushovers anyways barring that corrode attack.That's why there are rust dragons.


[Edit]: Or maybe the MIC enhancement was called Blueshine. There's also the special material blueice that's immune to rust due to not being a metal.

[Thurbane]

I've found this list (http://www.devinlc.com/specialmaterials.htm) and this post (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19569550/Special_Materials_Index) fairly handy for special materials.

[Rhatahema]

The durable enhancement from Dungeonscape costs 500gp and makes an armor immune to rust, acid, and dissolving attacks. It doesn't grant the +2 competence bonus on hide checks that blueshine does, but it's also 1000gp cheaper.

[Emperor Ing]

What about Mundane Crystal? It's SRD and surprisingly cheap.

[rmg22893]

Can't rust monsters "rust" non-ferrous metals anyway?

It's magic so it doesn't have to make sense.

Magic is just science we haven't figured out yet.

[Rhatahema]

What about Mundane Crystal? It's SRD and surprisingly cheap.

If you check the description, mundane and deep crystal are considered to be made out of metal. I don't get it, but I'm no geometalurgiologist.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are, like, several ways to get wooden weapons that work like steel...

"Bronzewood" from Eberron Campaign Setting
"Bluewood" from Unapproachable East
"Duskwood" in Magic of Faerun
"Coldwood" in Dragon Magazine 357

Bluewood is the cheapest for weapons.

[Urpriest]

Bluesteel (for armour) and Everbright (for weapons) are cheap enhancements from MIC. Not special materials, but then again, all metals in D&D are ferrous, whether that makes sense or not.


Sort of. All metals rust, but there are things out there that specify ferrous metals (mostly Dispater-related), and those only work on things that are ferrous in real life. And arguably Adamantine for some reason that escapes me.

[Ormur]

Tin is so malleable that it would be nigh useless as a weapon, it was mixed with copper for making better weapons, not vice versa. I've seen it myself when soldering. I think the DMG has rules for bronze weapons, and tin weapons should be even worse then then.

[hamishspence]

Well, there is a tin golem from Dragon Magazine. On the other hand there's also a paper golem, and paper does not exactly make good weaponry.

[Tiniere]

Sort of. All metals rust, but there are things out there that specify ferrous metals (mostly Dispater-related), and those only work on things that are ferrous in real life. And arguably Adamantine for some reason that escapes me.

This is in no way intended to be a personal attack. It's just a small personal pet peeve that I couldn't help elaborating on.

In DnD rust monsters "rust" any sort of metal. But Rust really only describes iron oxides. So the idea that all metals rust doesn't actually apply. However, all metals do oxidize which is what happens to iron when it rusts. But you know... Oxidization Monster does not roll of the tongue ;)

To repeat what has been said, the best way to use tin as a weapon material is to alloy it with copper as tin isn't quite weapons grade in terms of durability. The crystal weapons though would be interesting.

Metals themselves, when solid are "Polycrystaline" or consist of many tiny crystalline grains. Whether or not a single crystal would respond the same way to oxidation is fascinating to consider... though by DnD rules with the crystal-metal transparency I suppose it's a moot point.

[dgnslyr]

Well, there is a tin golem from Dragon Magazine. On the other hand there's also a paper golem, and paper does not exactly make good weaponry.

There's also a calzone golem. I don't think golems have to make sense.

[Rubik]

Well, there is a tin golem from Dragon Magazine. On the other hand there's also a paper golem, and paper does not exactly make good weaponry.My paper cuts tell me otherwise.

[Fitz10019]

Some creatures in the MM have stone weapons. The Grimlock entry, for example, shows no penalty to attack or damage for having a stone-bladed battleaxe. That should solve the rust problem, no matter how supernatural it is.

[Dimers]

Some creatures in the MM have stone weapons. The Grimlock entry, for example, shows no penalty to attack or damage for having a stone-bladed battleaxe. That should solve the rust problem, no matter how supernatural it is.

Ahh, but then you have to worry about the Erosion Monster (and perhaps the Lichens And Moss Monster too).

@OP: I agree with other posters that rust monsters don't inherently pose a significant threat. A mid-level adventurer can simply strip naked and punch them into unconsciousness; their bite attack is rolled at -2 (total!) and deals 1d3 damage. If you face rust monsters, it's because your DM hates melee and wants to destroy your toys and increase the already-vast gulf between casters and beatsticks. Go ahead and buy tin weapons -- she'll just take them away some other way instead.

[ericgrau]

Tin resists corrosion but it still corrodes. It is vulnerable to acids, for example. A rust monster attack corrodes. Bronze likewise corrodes even though it's resistant.

Bronze is much more expensive than steel, doesn't hold as sharp an edge, and breaks more easily. The edge is still sharp though so I wouldn't reduce the damage. Then give it a little lower hardness, little lower hit points and about 4 times the price for all metal items, but only a small cost increase on spears and such.

I don't see much reason to use either when steel is available, though. Its practical uses are pretty much limited to submerged marine applications

Stone can hold a very sharp edge so likewise it wouldn't have less damage. Its hardness is a little lower than iron but its toughness is low, meaning it would have a lot less HP and sunder easily.

[Spiryt]

Stone can hold a very sharp edge so likewise it wouldn't have less damage. Its hardness is a little lower than iron but its toughness is low, meaning it would have a lot less HP and sunder easily.

What about hammer, for example? :smalltongue:

In other words, high sharpness =/= 'high damage' - whatever should it mean.


Pretty much any stone usable for weapon is much, less dense than steel, for example, and together with obvious problems with shaping any sort of more aggresive, large blade out of it, it's hard to do sword, axe or polearms out of it.

Most effective attempts of doing something out of it is stuff like macuahuitl - so rather unique club with sharp edges.

[ericgrau]

A hammer is a matter of weight. Then you use a bigger hammer. That's no big deal. Even a cubic foot of rock weighs hundreds of pounds.

A stone sword is less plausible because a long thin blade would snap on the first hard blow. A thick short bladed stone axe should hold together though. In any weapon durability would be an issue since eventually it'd chip or split in half, but I imagine a stone axe with a wooden handle would last several fights at least.

Slashing damage is a matter of sharpness, bludgeoning weight, and piercing pointiness. I suppose axes combine weight and sharpness.

[Spiryt]

A hammer is a matter of weight. Then you use a bigger hammer. That's no big deal. Even a cubic foot of rock weighs hundreds of pounds.

Not really, bigger density, so concentration of weight would be very beneficial in most cases.

Lead mallets are eagerly used everywhere where ductility and softness of material is not a big problem.

Even substantial pieces of granite etc. won't be over 3 g/cm3, ever.

Even leaving aside other problems, like cleaving of stones etc. it usually wouldn't be optimal for hitting stuff.


Slashing damage is a matter of sharpness, bludgeoning weight, and piercing pointiness. I suppose axes combine weight and sharpness.

For purposes of game like D&D one could probably use something that simple easily.

But as far actually describing reality goes, not in a hundred years.

One can put as fine edge on stout rapier as he only wants, won't slash anything nearly as good as actual sword with solid cutting blade cross section.

[ericgrau]

Not really, bigger density, so concentration of weight would be very beneficial in most cases.

Lead mallets are eagerly used everywhere where ductility and softness of material is not a big problem.
Bwah? Not really. Lead is used for its softness to minimize damage to the object you're hitting. Brass is used for the same reason even though its density is similar to steel. Lead is used when brass isn't soft enough.

Without getting into too much detail by physics weight of the object and the size of the striking surface (not the whole weapon, just the face) should be what matters for a rigid weapon.

[gomipile]

The people saying tin isn't strong enough to use as a weapon are right. They are even more right than they implied.

I've used tin in metal casting. A pure tin bar over 1/2" thick is easily broken with my bare hands. Compare (relatively low-end) 0.75% carbon steel, where a 1/16" thick machete makes quite a durable and effective tool and weapon.

[Coidzor]

I thought crystal "counted as metal" just for the purposes of druids, so that they still had to shell out for ironwood or dragonhide at the time when The Expanded Psionics Handbook was printed. :smallconfused:


Meh, strip to hide armor and use a greatclub. Rust monsters are kind of pushovers anyways barring that corrode attack.

Heck. If you have advance warning and they're not being supported by some other hostile force, then they are supposed to be relatively easily tameable and make for good pets if you have the right kind of house and yard for them.

[Spiryt]

Bwah? Not really. Lead is used for its softness to minimize damage to the object you're hitting. Brass is used for the same reason even though its density is similar to steel. Lead is used when brass isn't soft enough.

Without getting into too much detail by physics weight of the object and the size of the striking surface (not the whole weapon, just the face) should be what matters for a rigid weapon.

If one has to minimize damage, and hard hitting is not required, one can always use rubber hammer.

Even with small striking surface, with too lighter material hitting trough something with material that doesn't have solid sectional density can be tough.

Medieval knobed or even flanged maces were quite often made out of bronze, even though pretty much all other weapons were obviously ferrous at the time. In such application, some more density could only help.

[gomipile]

I thought crystal "counted as metal" just for the purposes of druids, so that they still had to shell out for ironwood or dragonhide at the time when The Expanded Psionics Handbook was printed. :smallconfused:



You are correct.

[ericgrau]

If one has to minimize damage, and hard hitting is not required, one can always use rubber hammer.
Yes, that would be why we have rubber mallets. But when striking metal objects you don't want to scratch lead or brass is preferred because rubber gets torn up pretty fast and chunks start falling off. Especially on fasteners. The lead gets dinged up but no one cares. It's still usable.


Even with small striking surface, with too lighter material hitting trough something with material that doesn't have solid sectional density can be tough.

Medieval knobed or even flanged maces were quite often made out of bronze, even though pretty much all other weapons were obviously ferrous at the time. In such application, some more density could only help.
Bronze has roughly the same density as steel. The post bronze age maces I looked up were steel.

The simple version of all this for the OP is to just stick to steel if using a metal weapon. Otherwise there's deepcrystal or I suppose stone would work for fat short objects if you don't mind replacing it frequently. I doubt masterwork and fine craftsmanship is even possible with stone though. D&D has deepcrystal so use that.

[Gavinfoxx]

Look at weapons materials here:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12837.msg433805#msg433805

Good ideas. Also remember the woods I mentioned were ALL woods that act like steel...

[jpreem]

As I remember rust monsters also "rust" gold. It's magic you know. So making stuff from tin doesn'work.
Try non metal weapons. Or metal weapons that are specially "magixed".

[Ernir]

Magic is just science we haven't figured out yet.
Science is just magic that has had its manual posted on the internet. >=C