[PF, 3.5] What happens to a dead outsider?

[Laniius]

They can't be resurrected, but what happens to them? Are they gone forever as if they'd never been, or do they rematerialize on their origin plane?

[Necroticplague]

Depends on the outsider. Some (like some devils) simply pop back into their home plane, so killing them is a minor inconvenience to them. Others are completely destroyed. Since their body and soul are one unit, destruction of body=destruction of soul, thus making then leave a corpse unsuitable for raising.

[GoatBoy]

Fiendish Codex I gives exact descriptions of what happens to demons when they die, depending on which plane they are on and the manner in which they arrived. I don't know if the same rules apply to other outsiders, though.

[Psyren]

In D&D, nobody is ever really "gone forever" - even erasing someone's Truename can be undone.

If you're asking what happens to outsider souls after death though, Complete Divine has a passage on the subject:


The souls of outsiders and elementals are so intrinsically tied to the essence of their home planes that they evaporate into the fabric of the plane rather quickly. That's why it takes the true resurrection spell to bring them back from the dead; the magic must sift through the plane and reconstitute their dispersed souls.

This "evaporation" concept is supported by the Revive Outsider spell in Spell Compendium; you need unworked material from the outsider's home plane in order to resurrect them. This suggests that there is some component, either from the outsider itself or from other outsiders native to that plane that have died before, without which the outsider's soul would be incomplete and thus unable to be raised.

[hamishspence]

In D&D, nobody is ever really "gone forever" - even erasing someone's Truename can be undone.

From the Epic Handbook, there's the cloak of the Guild Mother of the assassin organization The Garrote:

page 233:

Anifer wears a cloak whose interior can open into a void dimension. When the remains of a victim are sent to her for utter removal, she allows her cloak to fall over the body and speaks a command word. When the cloak is pulled free, the body is gone forever, beyond even the recall of greater gods.

[Jack_Simth]

They can't be resurrected, but what happens to them? Are they gone forever as if they'd never been, or do they rematerialize on their origin plane?
Core answer:

Depends.

If they're Summoned, then by the Subschool description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.
Any other method of getting there, and it's there, so it's dead. As to the soul of such a creature? The Outsider Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) and the Elemental Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#elementalType) have very similar wording:
Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.No reforming, they're just dead.

[Psyren]

From the Epic Handbook, there's the cloak of the Guild Mother of the assassin organization The Garrote:

page 233:

Anifer wears a cloak whose interior can open into a void dimension. When the remains of a victim are sent to her for utter removal, she allows her cloak to fall over the body and speaks a command word. When the cloak is pulled free, the body is gone forever, beyond even the recall of greater gods.

The body may be gone - but TR, Wish and Miracle can explicitly create a new body for your soul to inhabit. So her ability is rather trivial to bypass. (The latter two then require a second casting to raise you.)

Her cloak can be handy for erasing your gear though.

[hamishspence]

There's also the description in Complete Divine about various ways to destroy the soul- including a sphere of annihilation.

If this cloak is a "cloak of annihilation" (but an improved one, that doesn't allow a deity to save the being's soul by intervening at the last minute) that fixes this.

[Psyren]

There's also the description in Complete Divine about various ways to destroy the soul- including a sphere of annihilation.

If this cloak is a "cloak of annihilation" (but an improved one, that doesn't allow a deity to save the being's soul by intervening at the last minute) that fixes this.

You would have to homebrew something like that; nothing in RAW results in that kind of total destruction.

The sphere annihilates a character, but "divine intervention" can still bring them back, which therefore means that Miracle can bring them back (because you explicitly "ask your deity to intervene.")

Barghests have a 50% chance of damaging the soul too badly, but again leave the door open for divine intervention, and therefore the second clause of Miracle.

And I already addressed the Garotte's cloak.

[hamishspence]

You would have to homebrew something like that; nothing in RAW results in that kind of total destruction.

The sphere annihilates a character, but "divine intervention" can still bring them back, which therefore means that Miracle can bring them back (because you explicitly "ask your deity to intervene.")

May depend on the timeframe involved- maybe Miracle only works if you cast it in the same turn as the character collides with the sphere, allowing the deity to intervene at the last moment.

There's also archdevils and their ability to devour souls.

It seems to me there's plenty of RAW support for the notion that a soul can be "destroyed beyond recall".

[Psyren]

May depend on the timeframe involved- maybe Miracle only works if you cast it in the same turn as the character collides with the sphere, allowing the deity to intervene at the last moment.

You're inventing restrictions that do not exist in the rules:

A sphere of annihilation is a globe of absolute blackness, a ball of nothingness 2 feet in diameter. The object is actually a hole in the continuity of the multiverse. Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character. "

"Restore" as in, "you've already been annihilated but you can still be brought back."


There's also archdevils and their ability to devour souls.

I've heard of this as well; do you know where I can find the rules for it?


It seems to me there's plenty of RAW support for the notion that a soul can be "destroyed beyond recall".

"Destroyed beyond easy recall," certainly. But once you get to the levels of rewriting reality entirely, nothing is impossible.

[hamishspence]

"Impossible for anything less powerful than an overgod" maybe?

BoVD:
(page 8): "Worse still, some evil beings use their foul magic to destroy an opponent soul, ending his or her existence altogether"

(page 33) Souls as Power- discusses the use of souls in place of XP to create magic items, as well as to power infernal devices.
"Using a soul in any way other than transferring it as barter consumes it completely, destroying it forever. Destroying a soul is an evil act of the blackest sort, even if the soul was evil itself"

(page 45) discusses the use of a soul as a material component in a spell. Material components, unlike focuses, are always destroyed by a casting.

Complete Divine
page 126: "Certain artifact and deity-level effects can destroy the soul- a sphere of annihilation does so, for example"

page 130: Join The Godhead "Evil deities sometimes consume souls as if they were eating ordinary food"

And from Fiendish Codex 2 (page 19) "Demons want to destroy mortal souls. Devils intend to own them."

[Psyren]

"Impossible for anything less powerful than an overgod" maybe?
*snip*

"Deities," not "overdeities" are mentioned as being able to restore annihilated souls. Unless any of those other quotes explicitly prevents divine intervention, they are still not irreversible.

[hamishspence]

The deity rules in SRD (taken from Deities & Demigods) don't mention it though.

There's this:


Life And Death
Prerequisites
Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability.

Benefit
The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life.

Notes
This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability.

If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant.

This ability cannot restore a creature to life against its will, but it can resurrect an elemental or outsider. It can resurrect a creature whose soul is trapped, provided the soul is not held by a deity of higher rank than the one using this ability.

This ability cannot restore life to a creature that has been slain by the Hand of Death, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death ability of a deity with a higher rank.

Rest
After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per level or Hit Die of the creature affected.

Deities whose portfolio includes death do not have to rest after using this ability.

but even it only mentions "trapped souls" not "annihilated souls".

[Psyren]

but even it only mentions "trapped souls" not "annihilated souls".

You answered your own question:

"f the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion."

All you need is their truename - that is an unambiguous identifier by definition. The condition of their soul is not mentioned at all.

[hamishspence]

Tome of Magic explains that it is impossible to bring back a creature whose soul has been "expunged" via the Unname spell, without performing a Ritual of Renaming first. Then, and only then, does True Resurrection work.

Might the same apply when a soul is obliterated via other means?

Mind you, it also says that the reason the ritual needs to be performed, is that the Unname spell has "altered reality itself"

And one of the most common divine abilities is Alter Reality.

to fix an Unname spell, a deity would probably have to cast Ritual of Renaming, or simulate it via Alter Reality.

Same could apply to other cases.

[Psyren]

But the fact that they can cast Ritual of Renaming (either by casting the spell itself, or using a Wish/Miracle/AR to simulate it as it is 8th level) and then recreate the subject "from scratch" means that any destruction can indeed be undone.

Sure it is difficult, but you wouldn't need deities if it was easy after all.

[hamishspence]

A deity can certainly kill a being so thoroughly that only a deity of equal rank can resurrect it.

Maybe the same applies to destroying souls?

If not, why is destroying a soul "an act of the blackest evil" if it's so reversible?

[Story Time]

...why do I keep seeing Psyren's name in the threads I view? It's like...a conspiracy... :smallbiggrin:

From a plot ( not looking at rules here ) point of view there is a difference between bringing something back that was totally and utterly ended ( annihilation / oblivion ) and making something new that was just like the orginal. It's not the same. It's exactly alike, but it's the second of its kind, not the first.


Still reading this thread has given me a lot to think about. Some of it I'd never heard before.

[Psyren]

If not, why is destroying a soul "an act of the blackest evil" if it's so reversible?

Just because a god can intervene doesn't mean it will. There's also the divine barrier clause etc.

Murder is reversible too, yet it is also "one of the most horrible acts that a creature can commit." (BoVD 7).


From a plot ( not looking at rules here ) point of view there is a difference between bringing something back that was totally and utterly ended ( annihilation / oblivion ) and making something new that was just like the orginal. It's not the same. It's exactly alike, but it's the second of its kind, not the first.

Yes, deities can make a replacement too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineCreation), but that's not what I'm discussing here.

(Although, from a metaphysical standpoint, you might be hard-pressed to tell the difference between Billy A and Billy B.)

[hamishspence]

True.

Phrases like "gone forever" may need to be take with a pinch of salt when deities are around.

[Zomg Zombies]

I mean, hey, the forgotten realms deities Ba'al, Bane and Myrkul were mortally killed, had the Overdeity Ao snub them with the bottom of his boot like cigarette butts, and were buried in peat... And they're still back!

[drack]

Eh, was looking for something else, but we're not at the necromancy limit, so I might as well weigh in...

Destroying souls is generally the most permanent death short of freeformish god schinanigry. I vaguely recall reading something in deities and demigods about the god of death being able to bar all resurrection attempts of any deceased soul, but when I've looked back I've never been able to find it.

It's worth noting however that there's a truenamer rite by which to grant a new truename, and that the text does state that this will recreate any destroyed souls, thus allowing one to return to a resurectable state by one of the many many many many ways of crushing souls in D&D. Alas, this makes my job harder as someone who's versed in killing "unkillable" epic characters, but it's better to know since that way we can set contingencies against their revival. :smallwink:

[GungHo]

In PF, it depends on how you summon them. Summon I-IX spells don't really call an actual being. They conjure energy from whatever plane (demons = Abyss, devils = Hell) which is formed into a copy of whatever you're summoning. Consequently, their death is meaningless and it just disperses energy (though the plane "knows" what you're doing). Gate and Planar Ally, however, call real beings. They can really die unless they're Infernal Dukes, Nascent Demon Lords, etc that are "landed" (i.e. they have a domain). Those guys reform in their domain after a time unless they're killed twice before that time recharges (about a year). And they don't like either the person who killed them or the person who called them into a situation where they could be killed because 1) it hurts, 2) it exposes them to a true death. Consequently, they won't respond to Gate or Planar Ally over that time. You gotta go get them.

[Psyren]

Eh, was looking for something else, but we're not at the necromancy limit, so I might as well weigh in...

We definitely are :smalltongue: It's 6 weeks, not 6 years!

(This thread does take me back though.)