[PF] Rogue - Optimization - Alternatives to TWF

[Kirti]

I'm strongly considering playing a Rogue in an upcoming pathfinder campaign. I have a really good idea what I want him to do outside of combat (sneaky, fast-talking, good-hearted, and charming guy).

What I struggle with though, is what to do with a rogue in combat. I know that because of sneak attack, a rogue is an ideal for damage using two weapons. I'm more interested in doing interesting things than I am doing one thing to maximize by DPR.

I've considered something with perform skills (dazzling display, etc.), a combat maneuvers expert with something like a spiked chain or whip, a way to go off into my own little world trying to sneak around the combat looking for that opportunity to stab someone in the back for tons of damage, etc.

Basically, I want to be useful in combat w/o having to stand there full attacking with two weapons. And I could really use the communities help identifying possible approaches.

Questions
What are some interesting combat strategies as a rogue that are not about standing still and full attacking (two weapon fighting)? I'm game for sneaking around, maneuver mastery, debuffing, performance, etc.

What are some of the more note-worthy archetypes that the rogue has? Most of them don't really seem to change the rogue base class significantly...

I would appreciate any builds (feats, stat focuses, weapons, etc.) that go along with your answers to the questions above. The builds don't have to be ultra-detailed - just guides.

Thank you in advance for all your help!

[avr]

What is it you want out of the rogue class? If the mechanics don't particularly appeal, maybe it might be better to take a different class, preferably with a CHA focus (Paladin, Oracle, Sorcerer, whatever) & run with that. In many ways a caster can be sneakier than a rogue, and they certainly get more cute tricks. Combat maneuvers (including dirty tricks) work better with a full BAB class or a caster with buffs active.

[Kirti]

I get exactly what I want from a rogue out of combat - tons of skills to find unique ways to interact with the world. But, I find that I'm always stumped in combat on how I can be as 'useful' as some of the other classes. It's hard to see a barbarian walk up and hit like a truck consistently each round while I'm trying to find ways to flank/position on the map and manage not to take hits.

In short, how have people played rogues in combat so you are an asset to the group?

[Curious]

Depending on level, either use the build outlined below, if you are starting at levels 1 to 8, or you are a Kitsune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/races-of-the-dragon-empires/kitsune) Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) with these (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/swift-kitsune-shapechanger) feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vulpine-pounce-combat) so you can charge and full sneak attack.
The Rake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) Rogue archetype allows you to make intimidate checks as a free action if you sacrifice one sneak attack dice. The Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype allows you to get a single sneak attack off if you move more than 10 feet in a round. This is where it gets interesting; Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) lets you attack a shaken enemy as if they were flat-footed. So, combined with some method of free movement, such as Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) or hustle, you can move and full-sneak-attack, as well as intimidate your enemy.

[Mystify]

It takes a bit to come fully online, but you can do a ranged rogue. There are a options for increasing sneak attack range, lowering sniping penalties(look at halfling), and there are ways to count as flanking a target whenever your allies are flanking it. So, with a bit of teamwork, you can rain full rounds of arrows into your target for sneak attack. Without the teamwork, you can fall back on sniping, and either way you are staying out of danger.

[mikau013]

(...)there are ways to count as flanking a target whenever your allies are flanking it.

I know these exist in 3.5 but have they also been printed in the pf rpg? Could you perhaps link some?

[jmelesky]

I know these exist in 3.5 but have they also been printed in the pf rpg? Could you perhaps link some?

Not sure what Mystify was referring to, but one way is the Gang Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) feat.

[Mystify]

Not sure what Mystify was referring to, but one way is the Gang Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) feat.

Yeah, thats the one. They don't even have to flank it, just threaten it. Depending on party makeup, that can be very easy to pull off.

[avr]

I haven't tried using it, but poison should work on single attacks, and PF rogues can pick up a talent to use it safely.

[JadePhoenix]

I heard buckler rogues are quite good.

[Doorhandle]

I have a funny plan for this sort of thing.

Be a rouge. Specialise in disarm or sunder, Use a sharp chairleg.

The catch-off guard feat means your opponent is flatfooted if your foe is unarmed and you have an improvised weapon.

[Greenish]

Be a rouge.I can't recommend that. Everyone knows rouges are overpowdered.

[Doorhandle]

Okay, it seems like you're not joking/being sarcastic, But the rogue does have a lot of abuseable skills and on a good day a TWF rouge can Do up to 360 damage, so I will bite.

Compared to what?

Wait. OH.


I can't recommend that. Everyone knows rouges are overpowdered.


GAH I MISSED THAT YOU ******! :smallannoyed::smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

I can't recommend that. Everyone knows rouges are overpowdered.
You, sir or ma'am, are a genius. Have one (1) free interblag.

[TuggyNE]

I can't recommend that. Everyone knows rouges are overpowdered.

QFT, and so much win the Internet is in danger of overloading! :eek:

:smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Disclaimer: the joke's not my own.

[Cieyrin]

It takes a bit to come fully online, but you can do a ranged rogue. There are a options for increasing sneak attack range, lowering sniping penalties(look at halfling), and there are ways to count as flanking a target whenever your allies are flanking it. So, with a bit of teamwork, you can rain full rounds of arrows into your target for sneak attack. Without the teamwork, you can fall back on sniping, and either way you are staying out of danger.

Not to mention that Rogues play well with firearms, especially when mixed with Pistolero or Mysterious Stranger. The Grit Rogue Talent is also a neat little trick to pick up those archetypes' special deeds, whether or not you multiclass in.

[Mystify]

Not to mention that Rogues play well with firearms, especially when mixed with Pistolero or Mysterious Stranger. The Grit Rogue Talent is also a neat little trick to pick up those archetypes' special deeds, whether or not you multiclass in.

Yeah, that sounds quite effective. The rogue I saw in action was made before the gun rules were added, so they just had a bow.

[Mustard]

I'm just popping in to note that the Gang Up feat has been FAQed to clarify that you need to be using a melee weapon to benefit. The feat is extremely poorly worded, but there it is.

If you actually look everything up, then you can see where they are coming from, and that they are technically correct. Which, I'll add, is one of the few times Futurama isn't right: in this case, it's not the best kind. I don't want to explain it myself, as I haven't put the info into practice, and it has therefore not stuck with me, so I'm liable to make an error. IIRC the key is the wording of "flanking" and "flanking bonus", and you'll need to meticulously read every related piece of text, multiple times, to make sure you're not crazy.

If you want to petition your GM to enable Gang Up to work for ranged, I'm fully in support of that. It requires that you get at least 2 allies into position, so at first glance I wouldn't think it's an overpowered feat.

[Haron]

I have a funny plan for this sort of thing.

Be a rouge. Specialise in disarm or sunder, Use a sharp chairleg.

The catch-off guard feat means your opponent is flatfooted if your foe is unarmed and you have an improvised weapon.

What about enemies with natural weapons? Can you sunder those too? Or would your strategy fall apart against them?

[Doorhandle]

Erg, I thought that would be a problem.

I don't think I can pass it off by saying they are not technically wielding weapons. :smalltongue:

[Mystify]

What about enemies with natural weapons? Can you sunder those too? Or would your strategy fall apart against them?

That is the main reason I never tried that build. Its way to common to have things you can't disarm.

[Coidzor]

That is the main reason I never tried that build. Its way to common to have things you can't disarm.

Indeed, and even when variant/homebrew rules are brought in to allow literal disarming of creatures... Let's just say it's walking on a razor's edge.

[Feralventas]

It won't be available until at least 3rd or 5th level, but UMD can grant a lot more combative option through a wand-belt/bandolier and a little preparation. Put some ranks into Balance (or the PF equivilant) and UMD some grease spots on the field to make targets flat-footed and easily targetable. Dual-wielding wands is a thing in 3.x, but PF may not allow it; if it is allowed, just use grease in one hand and something like Scorching Ray or a Lesser Orb of Element spell for sneak-attack on a touch-attack while dealing energy damage.

For bonus measures, master-craft the wands to look like guns.

[Cieyrin]

It won't be available until at least 3rd or 5th level, but UMD can grant a lot more combative option through a wand-belt/bandolier and a little preparation. Put some ranks into Balance (or the PF equivilant) and UMD some grease spots on the field to make targets flat-footed and easily targetable. Dual-wielding wands is a thing in 3.x, but PF may not allow it; if it is allowed, just use grease in one hand and something like Scorching Ray or a Lesser Orb of Element spell for sneak-attack on a touch-attack while dealing energy damage.

For bonus measures, master-craft the wands to look like guns.

There's nothing from stopping you from dual wielding wands in PF, unless you want to use them both in the same round, which is possible, though not as easy as Double Wand Wielder made it. Pathfinder Chroniclers can pull it off, though that's a high level ability and not feasible till 14th at the earliest.

[Laniius]

I haven't played with it yet, but I love the Scout archetype. Free sneak attack when you charge, or free sneak attack when you move 10 feet. The moving one explicitly only applies to the first attack if you get more than one, and the charging one may or may not work with pounce. Still, an interesting idea. I like the movement one for sniping even more than I like the sniper archetype. Just find ways to pack on loads of damage to that one attack. Then you'll be set. Just stay mobile.

[GreenZ]

Here's a build I like to call the Familiar Sniper. It takes a lot of work to get set up, and quite a bit of money... but it can snipe at targets from nearly a quarter mile away through solid non-living matter.


General requirements:

Sniper Archtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sniper) to give the lovely Accuracy ability, removing range penalties when used with Farshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/far-shot-combat---final).

The Familiar Advanced Rogue Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/familiar-ex) or cross-class into another class that has a familiar. Make sure it's a tiny or smaller familiar.

A pair of Sniper Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles) for Sniper ranged Sneak attacks.

Brilliant energy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Brilliant-Energy) to bypass non-living matter, Distance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Distance) if you want to truly snipe enemies, and the ever-important Seeking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Seeking) magic abilities on Arrows/Bow or Crossbow.

A set of Dungeon Rings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/dungeon-ring)

And, if you want to get fancy you can get the Improved Familiar Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar) (I personally like having a Raktavarna (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/rakshasa/rakshasa-raktavarna), so it can turn into a worn object)


Setup:

1. Locate living Target you want dead.

2. Distance self near max range distance away (10x normal range increment without any penalties!) Large building rooftops and near the top of clock-towers are great choices.

3. Place familiar in same square as target. Use your imagination on the numerous way to accomplish this.

4. Use Dungeon Rings (you have the master one and the familiar has the prisoner one) to know exact location and distance of familiar, as per the 'status' spell.

5. Fire at the target which is in the same square as your familiar.

6. Brilliant Energy arrows bypass non-living matter.

7. Seeking arrows automatically hits targets in targeted square (Your target).

8. Sniper Goggles allows for full sneak attack damage at any range.

9. Dead target. If their not dead yet, fire more arrows.

10. Profit.


It's so much fun to 'gift' a target with a necklace or ring that is actually your Raktavarna and then pelt them with arrows through buildings from 1,000 feet away while they sleep. :smallbiggrin:

You can even send your familiar into a dungeon with your allies and then snipe at living foes safely from the outside just by moving your familiar onto the same square as the target. :smallcool:

[Mystify]

Here's a build I like to call the Familiar Sniper. It takes a lot of work to get set up, and quite a bit of money... but it can snipe at targets from nearly a quarter mile away through solid non-living matter.


General requirements:

Sniper Archtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sniper) to give the lovely Accuracy ability, removing range penalties when used with Farshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/far-shot-combat---final).

The Familiar Advanced Rogue Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/familiar-ex) or cross-class into another class that has a familiar. Make sure it's a tiny or smaller familiar.

A pair of Sniper Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles) for Sniper ranged Sneak attacks.

Brilliant energy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Brilliant-Energy) to bypass non-living matter, Distance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Distance) if you want to truly snipe enemies, and the ever-important Seeking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Seeking) magic abilities on Arrows/Bow or Crossbow.

A set of Dungeon Rings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/dungeon-ring)

And, if you want to get fancy you can get the Improved Familiar Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar) (I personally like having a Raktavarna (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/rakshasa/rakshasa-raktavarna), so it can turn into a worn object)


Setup:

1. Locate living Target you want dead.

2. Distance self near max range distance away (10x normal range increment without any penalties!) Large building rooftops and near the top of clock-towers are great choices.

3. Place familiar in same square as target. Use your imagination on the numerous way to accomplish this.

4. Use Dungeon Rings (you have the master one and the familiar has the prisoner one) to know exact location and distance of familiar, as per the 'status' spell.

5. Fire at the target which is in the same square as your familiar.

6. Brilliant Energy arrows bypass non-living matter.

7. Seeking arrows automatically hits targets in targeted square (Your target).

8. Sniper Goggles allows for full sneak attack damage at any range.

9. Dead target. If their not dead yet, fire more arrows.

10. Profit.


It's so much fun to 'gift' a target with a necklace or ring that is actually your Raktavarna and then pelt them with arrows through buildings from 1,000 feet away while they sleep. :smallbiggrin:

You can even send your familiar into a dungeon with your allies and then snipe at living foes safely from the outside just by moving your familiar onto the same square as the target. :smallcool:
I like it. I can think of some fun ways to run that in a campaign. Lwave your familiar with the party, and let him mark targets for you, while you stay at a comfortable range. Brilliant energy+flat footed should make for some amazing accuracy.
Though you can't sneak attack targets with total concealment. That seems to be the problem with that build. The snipers eye talent can allow you to sneak attack targets with partial concealment, but not total,as does shadow strike. You would have to combo it with greater blind fighting to treat to the total concealment as partial, then sneak attack them through the partial.

[ericgrau]

Until you get UMD grease you can get round 1 sneak attack by rolling an ok initiative and attacking a monster that hasn't acted yet: he's flat footed. Also scout well for the party to make sure foes don't get a surprise round to negate that.

Even after the grease wand you sneak attack round 1, grease round 2, sneak attack some more rounds 3-5. Hmm... actually if foes die you might have to grease again which is pretty inefficient. See if you can find other ways such as encouraging the party wizard to get spells like grease (with a higher save DC so it's actually useful beyond sneak attacks), glitterdust, etc. Plus I believe pathfinder nerfed grease so you're only flat-footed while moving on the grease, not while standing still. That's gonna make it really hard to get 2 rounds of sneak attack in a row. At higher levels you can ask for a greater invisibility.

[Cieyrin]

I like it. I can think of some fun ways to run that in a campaign. Lwave your familiar with the party, and let him mark targets for you, while you stay at a comfortable range. Brilliant energy+flat footed should make for some amazing accuracy.
Though you can't sneak attack targets with total concealment. That seems to be the problem with that build. The snipers eye talent can allow you to sneak attack targets with partial concealment, but not total,as does shadow strike. You would have to combo it with greater blind fighting to treat to the total concealment as partial, then sneak attack them through the partial.

Greater Blind-Fighting doesn't resolve that, it only applies to melee attacks, unfortunately... :smallmad:

[Mystify]

Greater Blind-Fighting doesn't resolve that, it only applies to melee attacks, unfortunately... :smallmad:
"Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment, and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%)."
Those are two separate clauses.
"Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment"
Which we don't care about
"and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%).""
Which is what we are after. There is no way to parse that sentence so the latter part is dependant on a melee weapon.

[Cieyrin]

"Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment, and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%)."
Those are two separate clauses.
"Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment"
Which we don't care about
"and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%).""
Which is what we are after. There is no way to parse that sentence so the latter part is dependant on a melee weapon.

If you say so. Previous Blind-Fighting feats in the chain don't help ranged, so I find it circumspect to suddenly get one now. I wish the earlier ones did, it would make Ricochet Shot Deed not suck so bad for having Blind-Fighting as a prereq.

[Theodoxus]

I have a rogue built that I haven't had a chance to play, utilizing the Scout archetype and an elven curved blade. Charge in, big damage - if they don't fall down, quick draw daggers and twf them down (hopefully with a flanking buddy). Quick draw the ECB and charge the next feller, /repeat.

One idea I had was to pick up the vital strike line, for more wtfpwnage on the charge. Seemed thematic.

To the OP - you might find more usefulness from Bard. Better synergy for the things you want to do - only 2 fewer base skills, so not that harsh - and there are a ton of fun and interesting archetypes to choose from.

Just a thought :)

[Cieyrin]

I have a rogue built that I haven't had a chance to play, utilizing the Scout archetype and an elven curved blade. Charge in, big damage - if they don't fall down, quick draw daggers and twf them down (hopefully with a flanking buddy). Quick draw the ECB and charge the next feller, /repeat.

One idea I had was to pick up the vital strike line, for more wtfpwnage on the charge. Seemed thematic.

To the OP - you might find more usefulness from Bard. Better synergy for the things you want to do - only 2 fewer base skills, so not that harsh - and there are a ton of fun and interesting archetypes to choose from.

Just a thought :)

THF + TWF seems inimical to each other, plus the fact that you can't quick sheathe, so I'd think you'd want to focus on one or the other. Plus the fact that you can't Vital Strike on a charge, it's a modifier on the standard action attack. Since you're doing most of your damage from sneak attack, anyways, I'd just stick to TWFing and draw the daggers as part of the charge. Possibly as Knife Master so you sneak attack with d8s as opposed to d6s.