OOTS Three-Quarters Of A Million bucks- Why????

[Wolfs Heart]

I don't mean to be a jerk, but I just got to ask … Why in the world are you guys funding this project???

… and why are you still funding it?

I mean, I wish the guy all the best, and I know my comment is being fueled by jealousy, but seriously ... how does a stick figure comic even get $50,000, let alone ¾ of million dollars.

I’m an artist, I’m an animator and I feel like I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into learning how to create my work (and I feel that I'm good at it) … but I'm sitting here watching a guy drawing stick figures, stomp my kickstarter effort into the ground!

I just don’t get it?

[Chess Tyrant]

A few reasons:

1) OOTS isn't just crappy stick figure art - the excellent storytelling and hilarious jokes make it one of the most successful webcomics in existence. (Plus, though it is stick figure art, it's the best stick figure art on the internet.

2) All the books were originally given small print runs, and anyone who found the comic after they were printed probably hasn't had a chance to buy them. This means that there's an abnormally high demand for the books and other merchandise - Rich will never be able to run a fundraiser like this again. (And this comic has been accumulating fans for something like 10 years, a lot of whom are taking the opportunity to pledge for bonus rewards and PDFs even if they already have the books.)

[sparkyinbozo]

5 words: dedicated fan base, great swag.

I don't know what the forum rules here are, but usually any post with "I don't mean to be a jerk, but" is usually locked because people try to justify being said jerk.

[Toper]

It's not just the art; it's the story, the comedy in nearly every strip, the quotable lines, the consistent but developing characters, the thoughtful but not in-your-face concern with theme and the nature of good and evil. This comic is the whole package, the real deal; it's been going on for many years; and it's a small honor to finally be able to throw a little money to the guy who's been performing for free on the street all this time, and even get a little swag back in the bargain.

[FlawedParadigm]

If you think form always beats function, you have a LOT to learn about art to begin with.

[Chess Tyrant]

I don't know what the forum rules here are, but usually any post with "I don't mean to be a jerk, but" is usually locked because people try to justify being said jerk.

I think that only applies to people who break the rules and say "I know I'm breaking the rules, but..." This post doesn't seem to break any rules on its own, so that's fine.

[Dark Elf Bard]

I'm pretty sure this is a mea culpa and trolling.

[B. Dandelion]

I don't know if we could tell you anything that would help your own Kickstarter, unfortunately. OOTS is already a really well-established franchise. It's had a lot of time to build up a fanbase. People know exactly what they're getting out of it with the drive.

Also, it may be stick figures, but in this case it's more a simplistic style than a low-quality one. They are simple but still manage to be aesthetically pleasing in their way.

But really, it's the story that makes the comic. It is epic in scope, features multi-layered characters, and seems to span multiple genres effortlessly. I think the art is fun, but it's rather deceptively simple in that regard (which, really, is another part of its charm). I think even the most detailed, beautiful and talented artwork in the world would find itself in a fight if it went head-to-head against OOTS based on that strength alone.

[Chess Tyrant]

I'm pretty sure this is a mea culpa and trolling.

I don't think he's trolling - just a little exasperated that OOTS is doing much better than his Kickstarter, and confused as to why.

To which we can reply, read OOTS if you haven't already, consider that it's been accumulating fans for 10+ years, and that many of them haven't bought the books yet.

The drive continues to accumulate money because some people are only just now finding it, and some are deciding to upgrade their pledges as more rewards become available.

[Ash_Gazn]

large fan base, good story telling, and realising that most of the money isn't going into Rich's pocket, but is wrapped up in printing, postage, etc. I mean, Rich is lucky if he gets 15% of the cover price of a book as actual income, and then it gets taxed.

I'm contributing $25, plus $4 for a patch.

What does this get me?

An entire books worth of new comic material, just not printed. This ALONE is worth it to me, but I'm getting other stuff too.

Where's your kickstarter? Will the content of your creation promise as much entertainment, game fodder, and community as OOTS? If so, I'll back you.

[SpacemanSpif]

A tremendous fan base is a very powerful thing, and what you are seeing is the leverage of that power.

There are basically two ways to get a fan base like this.

The first is to come up with a great creative idea, convince someone with lots of money to buy it from you, and have that person sell it through their massive media empire.

The second is to create lots of consistently great content, and give most of it away for free, for the better part of a decade. It will help if you go back in time and start doing this before as many other people were also trying to do it.

[Eldray]

Because he has an established fan base, and a ton of his work is already available on this website, meaning that pledgers know exactly what they are going to get, and already know they like it.

You don't seem to have either, and I don't see why people would want to fund a random guy when they have no idea whether he can/will produce results and whether they are going to like it.

As for the comic, it's an excellent comic, especially for those into fantasy and/or RPG gaming, and the art style is very effective.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's not the art, it's how he uses it. Plus, as SpacemanSpif said, he made his foothold before there was an oversaturation of webcomics and the like.
alsohehastakenallofushostageinordertoforceustopled gepleasesendhelp

[Chess435]

Also, there's the fact that he hasn't accepted donations of any kind for at least as long as I've been here, so there's a lot of repressed desire to throw money at Rich for being awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Ted The Bug]

Well, when your fanbase consists of hundreds of thousands of dedicated readers, and they don't pony up enough to reprint your books, then you can compare yourself to Rich. Otherwise, yeah, not sure if trolling or just totally unaware of the fact that OOTS is *gasp* popular!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

We also know that the quality will be good. I've read Origin of the PCs, and that makes me know that buying all of the non-print books and getting the PDFs will be worth it.

[Chess435]

Well, when your fanbase consists of hundreds of thousands of dedicated readers, and they don't pony up enough to reprint your books, then you can compare yourself to Rich. Otherwise, yeah, not sure if trolling or just totally unaware of the fact that OOTS is *gasp* popular!

Now, now, no need to make the guy feel bad.

[Joran]

He's not trolling; he has an ongoing Kickstarter to try to raise $8,000 for his stop motion animation film. He has five days to go and only has raised $1,000 of it.

As previously was said, Rich and Double Fine both built up devoted fan bases with quality work over a long time. So, when they ask for money, people have a general idea of what they're getting (and for Rich, he's basically selling already made product so you know exactly what you're getting). Celebrity, name recognition, brand awareness is worth a lot. Just starting something on Kickstarter is often not enough; honestly most people don't surf the site looking for projects to back, they are linked to a project by another person.

How you build up that much good faith? If I could tell you that, I'd do it myself. Part of it is hard work, turning out high quality material. Part of it is smart promotion or spotting a good opportunity to get your name out there, linking up with the right people or company. Finally, sad to say, some of it is just pure luck and timing.

Edit: Just watched the Kickstarter video. I think you should have put together a longer demo reel with sound and music, so the backer would have a better idea of what the finished product would look like.

Also, you said you were an illustrator with comic books, having some of your friends or colleagues tweet or Facebook the project could spread the word. Trying to get a good word from other people that are interested in stop motion animation; someone like Neil Gaiman would absolutely be golden.

It's frustrating to put yourself out there in such a public way and not get much of a response, but as you said, you'll continue on, even if the Kickstarter falls through.

[Chess435]

@OP Also, go and look at the date for the first comic. (right below the strip) He's been at this for awhile.

[Mr. Snuggles]

I’m an artist, I’m an animator and I feel like I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into learning how to create my work (and I feel that I'm good at it) … but I'm sitting here watching a guy drawing stick figures, stomp my kickstarter effort into the ground!

I just don’t get it?
It's easy, pull your head out of [the dark]. The rest of the world doesn't think like you. What the hell do we care if it's stick figures or not? Who uses that as a metric to decide what to buy? Apparently, only you and your tiny circle of acquaintances. If it's good, it's good period. Does Southpark suck because it's a flash animation?

Where's your kickstarter link? Let's judge YOU. I'll bet the only person who thinks you're great is you.

[Chess435]

It's easy, pull your head out of [the dark]. The rest of the world doesn't think like you. What the hell do we care if it's stick figures or not? Who uses that as a metric to decide what to buy? Apparently, only you and your tiny circle of acquaintances. If it's good, it's good period. Does Southpark suck because it's a flash animation?

Where's your kickstarter link? Let's judge YOU. I'll bet the only person who thinks you're great is you.

As stated before, we don't need to be mean to the guy. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, his Kickstarter link is here. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jefflafferty/curse-of-the-wolfs-heart-a-stop-motion-animated-fi?ref=search)

@OP: Do you have any previous material of yours to look at?

Never mind, found his gallery. (http://jefflafferty.blogspot.com/2002/05/next-gallery.html) Not bad, if I must say so myself. Reminds me of old movie posters.

[Kancsar]

OotS artwork is secondary to Giant's real accomplishment, which is STORY TELLING. he's created a set of vibrant characters and an interesting setting, and consistently hits notes of comedy and tragedy within a long term story that holds up surprisingly well to logical analysis.

with that foundation, Giant can use almost any superficial artistic style and it is probably going to work. if you prefer a tumblr of beautiful unconnected images, just go look at a collection of Franzetta cover illustrations.

now, if some movie or game producer took a story by Giant and threw a few million dollars at it, you'ld probably get something really amazing. (this is Pixar's trick - great story FIRST, then add equally great production design and execution.)

[Savannah]

Well, assuming you want a serious answer, I'd say your problem is two-fold.

First: audience. You're a start-up, Rich has been doing this for years. You don't have any finished product to show, Rich has most of his comic online for free and has a history of producing books. There's really nothing you can do about this, unfortunately, which brings me to point number two...

Second: how you're presenting yourself. I was curious, so I clicked on your link to your blog. The first thing I found was a post ranting about how a coathook and a stick-figure comic were doing better than you are at Kickstarter. Quite frankly, I don't give my money to people who are trying to tear others down because they're jealous. Remember that everything you post reflects on your project. Now, that would have been enough to turn me off if I had been a casual viewer, but I went ahead and looked at your Kickstarter page. Several things jumped out at me (going through your description in order):

I'd say the biggest problem is the return on investment. You're trying to raise $8000 and say that that won't be enough and that you're going to need more when it runs out. Why would I, some random investor, want to put down money for a project where you could very well run out of money and produce nothing?

Then there's your movie pitch...Now, this is obviously a personal opinion, but I was not at all hooked by your summary of the movie. Admittedly, how exciting a summary is has very little to do with how exciting the full work is, but nothing you said in your summary made me think "ooh, I need to see this!"

Unfortunately, your reasons for doing this also make me wary. While I understand wanting to fulfill a dream, you're asking for $8000 of other people's money to do it and, to me, "Because I've always wanted to do something great!" doesn't make me confident that you'll actually follow through on it should I give you my money.

Finally, it's hard for me to pin down specific instances, but the whole thing feels quite casual, which would be fine if you were just making a movie, but I'd like to see a lot more professionalism if I'm going to be giving you my money (especially if I'm going to be giving you my money and, by your own admission, it won't be enough to ensure that I get a final product in return). A couple of things that strike me as unprofessional (really, it's just an overall feeling, but this is as specific as I can pin down):

The whole "why does [x] get more money than I do????" thing
ALL CAPS ALL OVER THE PLACE -- it's really hard to read
Multiple exclamation points


I hope you do continue to pursue your dream of making this movie and I hope this analysis is helpful next time you're looking for funding :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

As other people have said, this is a massively popular website with a devoted fanbase. The forum itself gets hundreds of thousands of hits every day, and I understand that the Main Comic Page is even larger.

Second, and this is the real key, art can be minimalistic and still be great. Compare the first few strips with a random selection in the latter. And obvious progression can be seen even to an untrained eye.

But, mostly, it's the story that's being told. The artist in question has quite a few people wanting and believing in his storytelling. Heck the flames passioned debates that break out over his storytelling should be proof of that.

Lastly, he's been doing this for a long time and has built up quite a reservoir of people wanting his product. So much so that even Rich seems to be astonished at what is happening. But in a way it shouldn't be that surprising.

After all, if Penny Arcade had some sort of Kickstarter, what do you think it would pull? A Metric Butt Load of Money, that's what. And yet PA isn't exactly High Art (though its art has also gotten better over the years). One could give it a glance and say, "That? That is one of the most popular webcomics around?" And yet it is. For many many reasons.

And while OotS isn't exactly in the same category, it might only be one or three levels down from PA.

So in a way it's the old story of Luck Equals Preparedness Plus Opportunity. Rich Burlew has put a lot of work into his storytelling skills, has put a lot of work into refining his craft, and, yes, through a bit of luck it is paying off.

It is a classic case of "An overnight sensation that took years to develop at play".

[MyNameIsSecret]

I don't think I can say anything that hasn't been said already, but I'll say it anyway, just to echo everything above.

It doesn't make a difference that OotS is stick figures - in fact, they compliment the story in every way. And its the story that matters; great humour, complex characters and exciting storylines. OotS is not just 'guy drawing stick figures', and it never has been, and that's why it has drawn such a large fanbase to get so much money from a kickstarter.

EDIT: I looked at your blog and actually thought your project looked pretty sweet... I have animated myself (pretty amateurishly, however) so I'm kinda interested...

[Cheerios623]

Judging from your work, you are pretty obviously talented. I don't doubt that a lot of hard work and expertise goes into your skill set. The same is true of Rich Burlew. His stick figures may not become part of Art history, but they are an appropriate medium for an excellent story. And The Order of the Stick is an excellent story, complete with comedy, tragedy, and parody.

What's more, is that we've been reading this comic for free for almost ten years. You'll notice that there aren't even advertisements on the comics page(the forum has ads, but that is new and goes to pay for the forum servers). A lot of folk have been waiting a long time to give something back to this guy.

[Kancsar]

just went and watched your 7 min movie on your kickstarter site. looks technically accomplished (the gallery of illustrations at your website also look good), and you credit Dragon Slayer as an influence, so respect to you for that, but maybe you should try presenting the story (or a good long piece of it) in a simple illustrated 2D black-and-white storyboard format (dare i suggest stick figure format?), and see if your characters and story are compelling enough for it to be worth the huge time and money investment to produce your stop-motion animation version, or does this exist already somewhere? good luck to you.

[Porthos]

Having read your blog post now, I do have to ask:

Have you actually read OotS at all? Oh, sure the first hundred strips or so can be a little rough. But if you start reading around, oh, Strip 112 or so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html) and give it a bit, you might see what is going on here.

The story can be (and usually is) funny.
It can be dramatic.
It can be heartbreaking.
It can be surprising, and even a little disquieting.
And, yes, it can be moving.

In short, it has all the hallmarks of being a good story, well told.

If the fact that they are stick figures is a deal killer, I can't say I blame you. After all there are plenty of art styles I can't stand. And if the style of story doesn't appeal, that I can understand as well. Both of those are simply a matter of taste.

But is he a good craftsman of Art? Well, while I understand Popularity Does Not Necessarily Equal Quality, the insane amount of coverage this comic gets at TV Tropes might suggest that the people out there who do love it, can give the reasons why they love it, and very strongly at that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/TheOrderOfTheStick?from=Main.OrderOfTheStick)

Perhaps if you looked over those TV Trope pages, you might get an idea of what the comic is all about. Sure it ain't Lit Crit. Far from it, in fact. But it does explain what is going on and a lot of the motifs and storytelling techniques that are at play in this work.

[Chess435]

Your second link is broken, Porthos.

[B. Dandelion]

I had more respect for the OP before seeing that blog post, which he seems to have made after this post. In particular the implication that Rich Burlew doesn't spend a lot of time and effort crafting his comic, and can't possibly have worked as hard or cared as much about his art as you, severely grates.

Jealousy is understandable, and I give you credit for copping to it, but check your assumptions, please!

[Porthos]

Your second link is broken, Porthos.

Fixed. Thanks. :smallsmile:

===

One last bit about the drive. Beyond everything else mentioned I do think the fact that this is really several preorders going on at the same time (though staggered out as one goal is met and another one is started) is helping. It can almost be thought of as six (or even more if various other products are taken into account) drives at once.

And the concept of the feeding frenzy/chain reaction is also at play, I think. The very success of the drive is encouraging more participation, not less. People see a crowd form and want to know what is going on. In this case, it's people who might have been on the fence about participating wanting to get in on all the fun.

Finally, again, luck is at play a bit. If Rich is to have some sort of Kickstarter again down the road for another project, I am sure it will be successful. But I doubt it will be (near) 1M successful. For instance, the Tik-Tok (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1104350651/tiktok-lunatik-multi-touch-watch-kits) watch project pulled in 900+K. The same company's next project? 300+K. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1104350651/lunatik-touch-pen-the-evolution-of-the-stylus?ref=users) Still massively successful, but not to the insane degree that the prior one was.

Sometimes the stars do align, I guess is what I am saying.

[FujinAkari]

Edit: Hey, rather than simply summarizing it, why not just link to what Rich said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9157244&postcount=33)


Actually, what I learned in art school was the importance of choosing a style for your work that is appealing and appropriate to the mood you are trying to communicate, how to compose a page and balance text and image elements, how to communicate ideas with images regardless of their anatomical accuracy, how to use vector art programs like Adobe Illustrator, how to use color properly, how to simplify complex shapes into iconic symbols that are recognizable nonetheless, how to prepare a book to be printed, and how to run an independent business that deals with issues like copyrights, trademarks, and the like. I have a degree in Graphic Design, not Fine Art, though it's easy to forget that most people think art school is exactly what they see in the movies: naked people and pencil drawings, nothing more or less.

So yes, that is why he uses Stick Figures, not artistic inability.

[Zerter]

Okay, first of all Rich Burlew is perfectly capable of creating high-class artwork and has proven so in the past. He choses to use stick figures because they're more than good enough to relate this kind of story and action-based comedy (I'm paraphrasing from comments I believe remembering he has made, correct me if I'm wrong).

Secondly before Rich ever put up a product for sale there was a lot of effort involved and failed projects. This website, the comic, the attempt at winning the wizard of the coast's new world project (which eberron won and in which Rich placed second). There was and never has been asking for money so he can get started or even accepting donations. You can say the stars aligned for him on the order of the stick, but before there was the order of the stick there had been a guy that probably came closer than anyone to having his own world published by WOTC only to not have it published.

Thirdly, if someone is a great animator, they should look for a great animating job. Setting up your own projects requires entrepeunerial skills (I hope I spelled that correctly : D) alongside other professional skills. If they don't have those kind of entrepeunerial skills they should not be surprised by someone that in their views has worse professional skills but does succeed because they have skills to make up for it. In D&D terms, Rich is a generalist skill-monkey being envied by a specialist.

[Dr. Gamera]

There was and never has been asking for money so he can get started or even accepting donations.

To be pedantic: way, way back in the mists of history, there apparently was a donation button. I believe it came down before the publication of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools; true OotS greybeards might be able to provide more precise details. (I've only been reading since 2006.)

[dps]

Gee, I smell sour grapes.

[oppyu]

Theory; he saw that OOTS has an insanely large fan base willing to pony up money, so he used troll-bait to lure us to his website for hits.

[Chess435]

Gee, I smell sour grapes.

Nah, it's all just a bunch of whine. :smalltongue:

Yes, I had to.

[The Derider]

I donated because the fundraiser gave things I want, and I knew it would go for a cause I was happy to support. He's a proven talent with a long history of quality work, so there was no uncertainty to the end product at all.

I like a good story above all else in any medium, and OOTS provides one. I'd like to see more of that.

[The Giant]

Assuming the OP wants an actual answer and is not just looking for publicity, here's my answer (though much that has already been said is also true):

What's funny about this thread is that I actually looked at your project a few days ago and thought it looked really interesting. But I didn't back it. Why? Because I didn't know anything about the story. I have no idea who it's about and what they're doing, because you're so concerned with the visuals and the technology that you haven't bothered to give the potential backer the first clue what your plot is. Is the old guy with the spear the main character? Or an extra who's killed in the first ten minutes? I don't know, and I just watched it for the second time. You spend your entire video talking about why you want to make a movie without telling us why we would want to watch that movie.

See, it's hard for visual artists to hear this, but the truth is, visuals don't matter. Oh, OK, they matter a little. They can't be eye-bleedingly bad. But that's about it. And certainly good visuals can make a good project better, but the fact is, no audience members get invested in how things look. They get it invested in the story. Characters, plot, moments of drama and levity: these things will attract an audience and keep it. Pretty visuals are only skin-deep. People like images, but they love stories. And they will wade through crappy visuals to get the ones they want to hear. Look at novels: they have NO images at all, and they're still one of the major art forms of the last 300 years.

So, my advice to you is to try to put your story first. Sell people on the awesome narrative that you're going to show them when it's done instead of trying to get them excited about advancing your career. And if you don't have an awesome narrative, hire a writer already.

(Also, a creator's public persona matters. And you haven't done yourself any favors in that arena by publicly whining about someone else's success, or coming to their website to pick a fight. I suppose you might get some sort of traction with people who already hate my work, but I doubt that would be enough to sustain a career on.)

EDIT: I do see six sentences about what your story is buried deep within a wall of text. So I guess that's something. You might want to mention the main character's name at some point, or show a picture of him with a label that says, "This is the main character."

[Sunken Valley]

Assuming the OP wants an actual answer and is not just looking for publicity, here's my answer (though much that has already been said is also true):

What's funny about this thread is that I actually looked at your project a few days ago and thought it looked really interesting. But I didn't back it. Why? Because I didn't know anything about the story. I have no idea who it's about and what they're doing, because you're so concerned with the visuals and the technology that you haven't bothered to give the potential backer the first clue what your plot is. Is the old guy with the spear the main character? Or an extra who's killed in the first ten minutes? I don't know, and I just watched it for the second time. You spend your entire video talking about why you want to make a movie without telling us why we would want to watch that movie.

See, it's hard for visual artists to hear this, but the truth is, visuals don't matter. Oh, OK, they matter a little. They can't be eye-bleedingly bad. But that's about it. And certainly good visuals can make a good project better, but the fact is, no audience members get invested in how things look. They get it invested in the story. Characters, plot, moments of drama and levity: these things will attract an audience and keep it. Pretty visuals are only skin-deep. People like images, but they love stories. And they will wade through crappy visuals to get the ones they want to hear. Look at novels: they have NO images at all, and they're still one of the major art forms of the last 300 years.

So, my advice to you is to try to put your story first. Sell people on the awesome narrative that you're going to show them when it's done instead of trying to get them excited about advancing your career. And if you don't have an awesome narrative, hire a writer already.

(Also, a creator's public persona matters. And you haven't done yourself any favors in that arena by publicly whining about someone else's success, or coming to their website to pick a fight. I suppose you might get some sort of traction with people who already hate my work, but I doubt that would be enough to sustain a career on.)

I think the guy mentions his story


WHAT'S THE MOVIE ABOUT -

It starts with three warriors traveling to a dark castle with the intent of stealing away a princess and murdering her captor ... a horrible dragon King. Things don’t go as planed and they encounter much battle and much adventure. In the end one of the survivors of the ordeal is cursed with a wolfs heart.

He becomes half man, half wolf and the curse plagues him throughout the rest of the story … I’m not sure how much you want me to give away?

Basically its an epic fantasy story, with knights, goblins, witches, dragons, and of course wolves. It has a bit of a love story and a lot of high adventure.


That's more than you put. I know you provided links and you are Rich "9 million readers a year" Burlew, but he has not made his story yet. You spent 9years doing it. Although you are right that he doesn't invest you in it.

With regards to public persona; you come across as reclusive (I see that as a good quality) and a bit agressive (that too) but overall a good guy. Is this what you want to pull off? I also like how you come here and put people straight.

You are my favourite writer!

Edit: Sorry, did not see your edit.

Edit2: I don't think you mentioned any of your guys by name or gave indication that Roy was the star in your pitch (unless you count the graphs and O-chul). Then again: Rich "9 million a year" Burlew

[Cizak]

I'm going to try to go through your post and your blog and give my thoughts, and I will try to do so while not insulting you nor fanboying over Rich. I do apologize in advance if I didn't succeed.


… and why are you still funding it?

For "why we are funding it", see all other posts. As to why we're still funding it, it's pretty simple: Rich keeps on adding more stuff for us to buy. Everytime we break the goal he has set, he immediately set a new one. If you take a look at his latest chart, there are 28 lines (although not all are goals, but most of them) and from the start there were 4. As we keep giving him money, he keeps giving us products in return.


but seriously ... how does a stick figure comic even get $50,000, let alone ¾ of million dollars.

Aside from everything everyone has already said about the stick figures, I must add that Rich's art is not easy. Take a look at the Arts & Crafts forum here and the Fan Comics. Out of all the people trying to do OotS-art, 90% of them never come close (this is not to insult all of you artists. Keep at it!). Rich's art is not easy to create, and he has spent years (he started drawing that way when he was 12, if I'm not mistaken?) perfecting it.


I’m an artist,

So is Rich. He went to art school and is currently making a living out of writing his story in drawn form.


I’m an animator and I feel like I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into learning how to create my work (and I feel that I'm good at it)

Implying Rich hasn't put huge amount of time and effort into his comic? Well, he has. If you take a look at the very first comic, you'll see that he's been doing this comic since 2003. If I do recall correctly, it was started in September, so that's 8 years and 5 months of creating a story. I guess "huge amount of time and effort" is debatable but to me, that's definitely hard work.


… but I'm sitting here watching a guy drawing stick figures, stomp my kickstarter effort into the ground!

Why do you feel the need to view it as competition?

---


I*was just going to let this whole kickstarter thing quietly fade away and die its pathetic little death without a whimper … but then I went to Kickstarters front page and saw this … yup it’s a coat hook.

… and if you notice at the bottom of the picture it’s a coat hook worth $13,000 bucks.

Now how about that, people are actually paying more for an actual household product than an animation project? I'm sorry, I'm trying not to be rude but this one's fairly obvioous.


I mean talk about take the wind out of your sails, talk about taking a kick (starter) square in the nuts. A freaking coat hook is bringing in more money than my movie!

Here is where you start losing me. If you're going to rant and say stuff like "freaking", it does kind of suck the professionalism out of you.*


Projects like this one, a web comic called Order Of The Stick, at this point its been funded to over ¾ quarters of a million dollars

… Uuugh, I know that this rant is being entirely fueled by jealousy, and I’m a poor sport and sore loser … but seriously, a *censored for forum use* coat hook and a stick figure comic???

I mean, did Hell freeze over and nobody tell me?

Yup, and there you lost me. I know to some the f word is not that big a deal, but here you are, the professional artist, the one who's asking for my money, just swearing at other projects. Tell me, would yuu yourself fund someone like that?


Honestly, I wish these guys the best, cause they’ve figured out how to spin straw into gold,

That sounds like an insult. I'm actually not that surprised at this point.


I guess it’s just frustrating watching a guy drawing stick figures, stomp my kickstarter effort into the ground ... Damn it!

I think you can figure out my answer to this quote.

---

Lastly, let me say something about this whole stick figure thing (again). You whine that it's frustrating to see someone make stick figures and get more money than you, but you know what? If you had made more money than Rich, then I would've whined. You know why? Because your film is stop motion. And that's just not appealing to me. Stick figures may not be appealing to you, but to other stop motion may not be so impressive. To me, it's not, and sadly I don't want to give money to a stop motion project that might not even be finished even if the asked amount of money is recieved.

[The Giant]

but he has not made his story yet. You spent 9years doing it.

But that's largely my point. I've spent 9 years giving my story away for free—that's why my Kickstarter is the way it is. My webcomic is effectively a very complex marketing scheme for my products. If I had shown up in 2003 and said, "Hey, can you guys give me a few thousand dollars and I'll write a really long story about stick figure adventurers?" without showing you all exactly what I could do, I would have heard crickets chirping.


With regards to public persona; you come across as reclusive (I see that as a good quality) and a bit agressive (that too) but overall a good guy.

Well, thanks, I think. I think the most important thing is: in 9 years of doing this, I don't think I have ever started a public feud with another creator, even though I know of a dozen off the top of my head that have publicly (or privately) attacked me and what I do. I don't think reader/viewers care about Creator Drama, I think they care about the end result. I strive to take my ego out of the process as much as I can, to mixed results I'm sure. The point, though, is professionalism. It matters.

[Sunken Valley]

But that's largely my point. I've spent 9 years giving my story away for free—that's why my Kickstarter is the way it is. My webcomic is effectively a very complex marketing scheme for my products. If I had shown up in 2003 and said, "Hey, can you guys give me a few thousand dollars and I'll write a really long story about stick figure adventurers?" without showing you all exactly what I could do, I would have heard crickets chirping.



Well, thanks, I think. I think the most important thing is: in 9 years of doing this, I don't think I have ever started a public feud with another creator, even though I know of a dozen off the top of my head that have publicly (or privately) attacked me and what I do. I don't think reader/viewers care about Creator Drama, I think they care about the end result. I strive to take my ego out of the process as much as I can, to mixed results I'm sure. The point, though, is professionalism. It matters.

Technically, you've only been doing it for 2. You've been advertising your books, T-shirts and more since then.

It was meant to be a compliment. And I care about the end result too. Although I would not know about the ego thing. Sometimes...that image isn't clear. Still professional.

[Chess435]

If I had shown up in 2003 and said, "Hey, can you guys give me a few thousand dollars and I'll write a really long story about stick figure adventurers?" without showing you all exactly what I could do, I would have heard crickets chirping.


Case in point:
:smallwink:



Ever try making $$ off of your ability?


Sure. Give me $100.

(pause)

Well, I tried. ;)


Yes, I just went back to the very first OotS thread to copy/paste quotes from. Page 6, if anyone's interested in seeing it themselves.

[B. Dandelion]

Technically, you've only been doing it for 2. You've been advertising your books, T-shirts and more since then.

Wait, what?

The online strip costs as much to read now as it did in 2003. The existence of merchandise doesn't change the fact that the comic is free to read and has been so for 9 years.

Or did I totally misunderstand you?

[Chess435]

Wait, what?

The online strip costs as much to read now as it did in 2003. The existence of merchandise doesn't change the fact that the comic is free to read and has been so for 9 years.

Or did I totally misunderstand you?

I think what he was trying to say is that there's only been merchandise for two years, which kinda misses the point of the Giant's argument.

[Math_Mage]

What's funny about this thread is that I actually looked at your project a few days ago and thought it looked really interesting. But I didn't back it. Why? Because I didn't know anything about the story. I have no idea who it's about and what they're doing, because you're so concerned with the visuals and the technology that you haven't bothered to give the potential backer the first clue what your plot is. Is the old guy with the spear the main character? Or an extra who's killed in the first ten minutes? I don't know, and I just watched it for the second time. You spend your entire video talking about why you want to make a movie without telling us why we would want to watch that movie.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I watched the Kickstarter video.
-Value proposition: I have no idea what kind of story I'm funding, if it's any good, if people will pay attention. We have no idea if what you're doing is worth the money we're giving you.
-Team: You don't give any indication that you know how to handle the parts of the moviemaking process OTHER than art and animation, or that you know someone who does. Also, your swipes at other Kickstarter drives make you appear childish, not professional.
-Impact of investment: After giving us no reassurances about the overall level of work you will produce, you emphasize that our reward for giving you money is a warm fuzzy feeling. EVERYONE on Kickstarter has "warm fuzzy feeling" going for them. You're not unique in that regard.

Basically, your Kickstarter video is put together very much from YOUR perspective. Why YOU are doing this, what YOU are good at, what YOU are sacrificing. You'll get plenty of sympathy that way, to be sure. But you'll get MONEY by appealing to OUR perspective. What product are WE going to see, why are WE going to like it, why should WE trust that our money is going to a good cause (and what WE are going to get for our money).

Your Kickstarter is entrepreneurial fundraising, so take some lessons from business and give it the thought it deserves.

[Chess435]

*snip*

This. So much. Couldn't have said it better myself. :smallbiggrin:

[Hamiltonz]

Well I hate following The Giant because it's like when an entertainer follows a major star, but I wanted to explain why I started to talk myself into backing your project, but then ultimately decided to not give you any money at all.

First, I am one of those people that likes rooting for the underdog. I can tell that this is a dream of yours and that you are at the point where you are taking the leap and just going for it. That is cool and I want(ed) to support that.

Second, I really liked the 8k pledge level because a buddy of mine has producer credit on an independent film and I want one of those executive credits for myself.

The reason I dropped the idea completely was this quote "I know $8000 isn't enough to fund a movie, but I plan to use the $8000 to jump start this project into a business".

When you are selling an idea honesty is great and most people like that, but you are arguing against your own project here. If the idea is to create a movie then ask for the funds to actually make the movie.

I'm not willing to fund you for six months just so you can be free of all responsibility while you pursue your dream without any real hope that you will produce anything to show for that investment.

I applaud your honesty, and I understand your frustration. I hope that you do eventually make your movie.

[Sunken Valley]

Wait, what?

The online strip costs as much to read now as it did in 2003. The existence of merchandise doesn't change the fact that the comic is free to read and has been so for 9 years.

Or did I totally misunderstand you?

Oh it costs the same. But it's good quality. After a while, it sucks you in. Then in 2005, Rich is like "hey, I'm putting together a book of my comics, it has commentry and bonus material!". The fans say yes and some of them buy it. Then he says "Hey, I'm putting an all new book together, exclusive to print. And in the distant future I'll refer to it in comic." So the fans buy it.

"Hey I'm releasing a board game with original illustrations!" The fans buy it.

"A new book with commentary and bonus material". The fans buy it.

"An eagle award winning prequel with plot spoilers". The fans buy it.

And it goes on and on. And this makes new fans who know OOTS through the books. Or the Game. Or (like me) his tenure on dragon. And then new fans show up who want to buy the books.

By now he's sucked you in so much that you'll buy what he tells you to because it's made by him. And he gets more money than most because he self publishes. His comic is a commercial for his writing and his books. And you don't even know he's doing it.

[GrumpyEye]

The reason why Rich get such support is he puts out a really good product for free, and we do not want him to stop so we support him. And seriously look at all the extra work he putting into his kick start. He has tons of content and is developing much much more.

Also not checking out your site, turned off on the way you do business.

[Math_Mage]

By now he's sucked you in so much that you'll buy what he tells you to because it's made by him. And he gets more money than most because he self publishes. His comic is a commercial for his writing and his books. And you don't even know he's doing it.

Excuse me, give us at least a tiny bit of credit for understanding business models. Even if you don't...

But that's largely my point. I've spent 9 years giving my story away for free—that's why my Kickstarter is the way it is. My webcomic is effectively a very complex marketing scheme for my products.

So, you're putting in a lot of effort to argue a point Rich already noted himself--that he makes money off peripherals--without actually addressing the main point: that he gives the main product away for free.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm rather surprised that I didn't see anybody mention the fact that gamers (of which the OotS fanbase has a large number) seem to have insane amounts of disposable income.

[B. Dandelion]

Sunken Valley, I don't see how any of what you've said makes the statement that the Giant has been freely giving away his work for nine years not 100% factually accurate.

People buy his merchandise for the same reason they support the Kickstart: it's an established franchise that people can have confidence in purchasing because of its track record -- largely set by the completely free online strip. Ergo, that is where other aspiring kickstarters are advised to start.

[ThePhantasm]

Rich is certainly right that the story is the huge center of a creative work's appeal. That said, another important thing (besides the story) that has kept me a reader all these years is the art. The art form fits the story like a glove. I think it is genius in its simplicity.

In some sense I think it can be compared to LEGO sets. Not that Rich's characters look like LEGO figures, but rather that both OOTS and LEGO are popular and aesthetically pleasing despite (perhaps because of) their colorful simplicity. There's something beautiful about LEGO figures and sets, even though they might not be as detailed as, say, a G.I. Joe. The art style works. It can support both humor and drama. It feels relaxed rather than pretentious. To be honest, I can't imagine OOTS looking any other way.

[nogall]

yeah, I don't think any comment will be able to change the OP's mind regarding the art style. Here's his answer in his blog to people talking about OOTS:

"Oh f*&^ off you bunch of little punks.

I are you guys serious, its stick figures???

Stick figures!!!! ... and its not even very funny."

[Chess435]

yeah, I don't think any comment will be able to change the OP's mind regarding the art style. Here's his answer in his blog to people talking about OOTS:

"Oh f*&^ off you bunch of little punks.

I are you guys serious, its stick figures???

Stick figures!!!! ... and its not even very funny."

Posting to confirm (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4138001762348655867&postID=5332021937749637115&isPopup=true), it's in the comments of his blog. I think we're done here. :smallamused:

[ZMiles]

For me, it's a few things:

1. Mr. Burlew's comic has given me a lot of free enjoyment over the years, and now I want to help give back. The kickstarter drive is a great way to do that.
1a. Similarly, as the drive is for putting the comic back in stores, it will help other people become aware of the comic so they can have the same enjoyment I and the other fans have had.
2. Because the comic has been available for so long, I've been able to read it and know that I enjoy the work. Therefore, I know that I'll really enjoy the pledge rewards that I'm signed up for (which at this point is the 'All 7 books + 8 PDFs + hit point pad/stickers/coloring books' package). As Gordon Ramsay would say, it's "value for money."
3. Because Mr. Burlew has been doing the comic for so long, and has been selling merch for a while too, I know that he's capable of putting out a finished product. I can be confident that, now that the drive is funded, the books will be reprinted, the swag will be sent out, etc. This is helped by the frequent updates which detail exactly where the money is going. From someone completely unknown, even if I love their art, I don't have the same evidence that they can use the money I contribute to develop a finished, quality product. Additionally, on your kickstarter, it's unclear what exactly the $8000 will fund or what the finished project will be. You acknowledge that it won't be enough to fund the movie, so what, exactly, will the kickstarter money produce on its own?
4. The OotS kickstarter is clear about what will be produced. Your video is too much about yourself and why you want to make a movie, which is great, but doesn't say nearly enough about the actual movie people will be funding.


Most of this boils down to "Mr. Burlew has been posting free comics for a long enough time to attract a large fanbase that knows that they like Mr. Burlew's product, and knows that he can reliably produce what he says he's going to produce for the kickstarter." So, addressing the OP: if you post more of your work online and cultivate a fanbase over a period of time, your next kickstarter might be more successful.

[The Giant]

yeah, I don't think any comment will be able to change the OP's mind regarding the art style. Here's his answer in his blog to people talking about OOTS:

"Oh f*&^ off you bunch of little punks.

I are you guys serious, its stick figures???

Stick figures!!!! ... and its not even very funny."

That is unfortunate. I had hoped, against my instinct, that the OP was actually interested in understanding why we'd raised so much money—rather than simply venting his frustration in the form of a question.

Oh well. The most important ingredient for success is a good tolerance for failure. Keith Baker taught me that lesson.*

*Not personally, he's a very nice guy.

[Chess435]

Judging by the reaction to his (after mine) blog post comments, (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4138001762348655867&postID=5332021937749637115&isPopup=true) it looks like it's coming back to bite him already.

[FlawedParadigm]

On a side note, if anyone sees a kickstarter for cloning or personal teleportation, lemme know.

[Cizak]

Judging by the reaction to his (after mine) blog post comments, (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4138001762348655867&postID=5332021937749637115&isPopup=true) it looks like it's coming back to bite him already.

It's a shame. His drawings are good and the stop motion, despite the fact that I do not care much for stop motion, seemed to be able to be good. But if he's going to act like he does, well... he's kind of asking for it. But it is a bit of a shame.

[B. Dandelion]

Judging by the reaction to his (after mine) blog post comments, (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4138001762348655867&postID=5332021937749637115&isPopup=true) it looks like it's coming back to bite him already.

He is not a nice guy, and this wasn't a smart move, but there's not a lot to be gained in essentially kicking him when he's down. It certainly won't help our reputation, or the Giant's.

[Spacewolf]

Considering that he hasnt been back on since before giant made his comments we should proably let this die for now

[Mr. Snuggles]

As stated before, we don't need to be mean to the guy. :smallannoyed:
It's not being mean, it's tough love.


Anyway, his Kickstarter link is here. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jefflafferty/curse-of-the-wolfs-heart-a-stop-motion-animated-fi?ref=search)

@OP: Do you have any previous material of yours to look at?

Never mind, found his gallery. (http://jefflafferty.blogspot.com/2002/05/next-gallery.html) Not bad, if I must say so myself. Reminds me of old movie posters.

Oh, Jesus...the guy wants eight thousand dollars so he can be unemployed for six months and play with his toys? Jeez, I thought that kickstarter was specifically NOT for this sort of thing. What an enormous sense of entitlement, coupled with an equally repugnant jealousy of others who worked hard to get ahead. What a tool.

[Cizak]

Considering that he hasnt been back on since before giant made his comments we should proably let this die for now

Yeah, this is pobably the best thing to do.

[Chess435]

It's not being mean, it's tough love.


At the time I made that post, I thought he was honestly looking for advice.

[The Giant]

Considering that he hasnt been back on since before giant made his comments we should proably let this die for now

Combined with the fact that we've slid well off the deep end into personal attacks as well, I concur. I'm going to lock this thread to avoid it becoming an endless bash on the guy.

Thread locked.