Con-based spellcasters

[thereaper]

I've heard a couple of times some people mentioning Con-based spellcasters, but I've never seen any details and search has failed me. However, I find myself intrigued. Does anyone know anything about Con-based spellcasters (or if they can even exist)?

[darksolitaire]

Only ones I know are Dwarven Sorcerers with substitution levels, who gain increased spells per day from con modifier. They still use charisma for spell save DCs and must have charisma to cast their spells.

...and then there's the Incarnum, where con grants bonus essentia.

[RaggedAngel]

I've heard a couple of times some people mentioning Con-based spellcasters, but I've never seen any details and search has failed me. However, I find myself intrigued. Does anyone know anything about Con-based spellcasters (or if they can even exist)?

When people talk about Con-based casters, they'll usually use the term "a hypothetical Con-based caster." This is referring to the facts that having all of your class features focused on a single stat is superior to any alternative, and that casting is better than not casting, and that Constitution is the one stat other than their primary mental stat that every spellcaster needs. Change that primary mental stat to Con, and your caster suddenly has no reason to do anything but pour resources into the score that both makes them tougher and cast better.

So, yeah. There are no Con-based casters; they're the hypothetically "best" casters. Magic of Incarnum has some magical-stuff that's related to Con, but not in the same way that spells relate to mental ability scores.

[Acanous]

I thought there was something in Races of Destiny that allowed you to cast off of Con. Was a racial thing tho.

[MammonAzrael]

There are no official Con-based casters. Incarnum really is the closest you'll find.

Unless you want to delve into homebrew territory, in which case you should look at my Magus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91510)!

[Taimino]

well there is technically the Blood Magus from Complete Arcane (pg 26)
it is however a prestige class and therefore just attributes toward, "Oh your a mage who has good Con? well then here you go! This'll fit in nicely."
Then again the special requirement needed it a bit iffy-iffy

"Special: The character must have been killed, then
returned to life."

The majority of the class itself though revolves around using for lack a better term "Blood magic" which does do minor damage to the caster to assist in better spell casting damages and effectiveness.
two of the class abilities also use the Con modifier directly, [one for the saving throw, the other for the amount of "blood draughts" the Magus can store]

so basically it's casting is the same as a normal spellcaster (it adds to your previous caster levels) just with some Con oriented things thrown in as class abilities

[Zaq]

The DFA is a pseudocaster. Its invocations that have saves (many do not) are based on CHA, but its breath weapon, which is its real meat and potatoes, is based on CON. You can totally play one with all CON and no CHA. It's no Sorcerer, sure, but it'll give you a steady stream of CON-based magical effects.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I homebrewed a base class called the Blood Mage, which I created as a thought experiment about using Hit Points as a caster resource, and there is some discussion raised in that thread about the idea of using CON as your casting primary stat.

I still maintain that, if used at all, using CON as your primary casting stat is a capstone-worthy ability, not a basic feature of a spellcasting class. Being able to pour resources exclusively into one attribute and make every aspect of your character better is not a thing that should ever be happening in D&D, but if it does, it should require a 20-level investment and be the bridge to Epic levels. Let it stay hypothetical otherwise.

[Big Fau]

...and then there's the Incarnum, where con grants bonus essentia.

Meldshapers don't get bonus Essentia based on Con. In fact, they have to spend a feat to get more Essentia outside of the class benefits.

[Amphetryon]

One of the 3.0 Psions, the Kineticist, uses CON as its primary attribute for bonus power points and such. Given that 3.0 Psionics is largely considered b0rked, I can't say I'd recommend exploring it.

[hex0]

Only ones I know are Dwarven Sorcerers with substitution levels, who gain increased spells per day from con modifier. They still use charisma for spell save DCs and must have charisma to cast their spells.

...and then there's the Incarnum, where con grants bonus essentia.

Though I think it is the level 8 of Dwarven Sorcerer? Right? :smallmad:

But if your DM bans all PRCs (lol wut?), then it would be a decent choice.

[Red_Dog]

One of the 3.0 Psions, the Kineticist, uses CON as its primary attribute for bonus power points and such. Given that 3.0 Psionics is largely considered b0rked, I can't say I'd recommend exploring it.

Are you talking about expanded Expanded Psionic's Handbook? Or earlier than that?

==============================================>

The only thing that people have not yet noted as far as "Con casting" [as far as I can tell] is Hellfire Warlock. He gets to dmg himself [his con] in return for substantial damage [for the price IMO]. Class also has other nice tricks ^^ as far as I remember.

P.S. Class is from Tyrants of Nine Hells.

[Demons_eye]

There is a feat in Bastards and bloodlines that lets you select your casting stat.

[Amphetryon]

Are you talking about expanded Expanded Psionic's Handbook? Or earlier than that?

==============================================>

The only thing that people have not yet noted as far as "Con casting" [as far as I can tell] is Hellfire Warlock. He gets to dmg himself [his con] in return for substantial damage [for the price IMO]. Class also has other nice tricks ^^ as far as I remember.

P.S. Class is from Tyrants of Nine Hells.Psionics Handbook, which is 3.0, not Expanded Psionics Handbook, which is 3.5. Hence why I specified 3.0 in my post.

[Psyren]

There seems to be some confusion as to why Incarnum classes are Con-based. Constitution controls two things for meldshapers:

- Maximum number of soulmelds shaped: This is equal to either your Constitution score (not modifier) minus 10, or the amount on your class table, whichever is lower. So if you have 14 Con, you can only shape 4 soulmelds, no matter how many levels in a meldshaping class you take.
- Save DCs of soulmeld abilities that allow a save (for Totemists and Soulborns only.)

In addition, if you take the "Expanded Soulmeld Capacity" or "Improved Essentia Capacity" feats, their benefit only applies if your Constitution modifier is large enough.


For most meldshapers you can get by with 16 Con or so; by the time that becomes limiting, you should be high enough to afford things like an Amulet of Health if you really want more melds, and then later you can boost your Con other ways e.g. Wishes.

The only reason to actually focus on Con is if you're a totemist relying on abilities that need a save (e.g. Behir Gorget and Winter Mask). Otherwise, pumping Dex or Str (depending on build) is usually the better option.

Constitution otherwise has no relation to essentia at all.

[Zaq]

There seems to be some confusion as to why Incarnum classes are Con-based. Constitution controls two things for meldshapers:

- Maximum number of soulmelds shaped: This is equal to either your Constitution score (not modifier) minus 10, or the amount on your class table, whichever is lower. So if you have 14 Con, you can only shape 4 soulmelds, no matter how many levels in a meldshaping class you take.
- Save DCs of soulmeld abilities that allow a save (for Totemists and Soulborns only.)

In addition, if you take the "Expanded Soulmeld Capacity" or "Improved Essentia Capacity" feats, their benefit only applies if your Constitution modifier is large enough.


For most meldshapers you can get by with 16 Con or so; by the time that becomes limiting, you should be high enough to afford things like an Amulet of Health if you really want more melds, and then later you can boost your Con other ways e.g. Wishes.

The only reason to actually focus on Con is if you're a totemist relying on abilities that need a save (e.g. Behir Gorget and Winter Mask). Otherwise, pumping Dex or Str (depending on build) is usually the better option.

Constitution otherwise has no relation to essentia at all.

Also, the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is limited by your CON. This rarely comes up, but it is, strictly speaking, a limitation.

[Big Fau]

Also, the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is limited by your CON. This rarely comes up, but it is, strictly speaking, a limitation.

He mentioned that...

[UndeadCleric]

The feat "Fey soul" from Bastards and Bloodlines give you Cha instead of Con to hitpoints.
The feat "Lost tradition" from same allows you to choose your casting stat.

[Thurbane]

I thought there was something in Races of Destiny that allowed you to cast off of Con. Was a racial thing tho.
You're probably thinking of Illumians - they can key their bonus spells off STR or DEX, but not con.

There is a feat in Bastards and bloodlines that lets you select your casting stat.
^^
Yep, Lost Tradition; and you set set the casting stat (DCs, bonus spells, highest level spells) to any one stat, including the physical stats STR, DEX or CON. It's 3.0 3rd party, and most DMs would be very hesitant to let it in.

[Aquillion]

When people talk about Con-based casters, they'll usually use the term "a hypothetical Con-based caster." This is referring to the facts that having all of your class features focused on a single stat is superior to any alternative, and that casting is better than not casting, and that Constitution is the one stat other than their primary mental stat that every spellcaster needs. Change that primary mental stat to Con, and your caster suddenly has no reason to do anything but pour resources into the score that both makes them tougher and cast better.

So, yeah. There are no Con-based casters; they're the hypothetically "best" casters. Magic of Incarnum has some magical-stuff that's related to Con, but not in the same way that spells relate to mental ability scores.Well, remember, that's only true if you don't balance out their Con-based casting with other limitations. Or you could give this ability to a non-full-casting class -- a Paladin variant that used Con-based casting wouldn't be particularly overpowered. Slightly better than a normal Paladin, sure, but so what.

[Aquillion]

When people talk about Con-based casters, they'll usually use the term "a hypothetical Con-based caster." This is referring to the facts that having all of your class features focused on a single stat is superior to any alternative, and that casting is better than not casting, and that Constitution is the one stat other than their primary mental stat that every spellcaster needs. Change that primary mental stat to Con, and your caster suddenly has no reason to do anything but pour resources into the score that both makes them tougher and cast better.

So, yeah. There are no Con-based casters; they're the hypothetically "best" casters. Magic of Incarnum has some magical-stuff that's related to Con, but not in the same way that spells relate to mental ability scores.Well, remember, that's only true if you don't balance out their Con-based casting with other limitations. Or you could give this ability to a non-full-casting class -- a Paladin variant that used Con-based casting wouldn't be particularly overpowered. Slightly better than a normal Paladin, sure, but so what.

[Zaq]

He mentioned that...

That's, like, the second or third time today I've utterly failed to read something in plain sight. Usually I don't do that. Weird.

[Mystify]

Its 3rd party, but pathfinder does have this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rite-publishing/101-feats/talent-feats/earth-born-sorcery-talent).