Reincarnating Roy's dad

[DoughGuy]

Would it be possible to reincarnate Roy's dad? This would allow him to come back and help complete his blood pact. Or is there a part of the pact that prevents him being brought back to life once he fails.

[Eldray]

Isn't he dead from old age?

[DoughGuy]

Reincarnation gets around that. Its the only magic that does.

[FujinAkari]

"With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return."

So no, Roy's dad has been dead WAY longer than a week.

[Sunken Valley]

Under SRD rules, Reincarnate can only be cast by a Druid. And only then within one week of Eugene's death. Maybe Eugene didn't know any druids. Or didn't care enough about killing Xykon.

Edit: Ninja!!!

[DoughGuy]

"With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return."

So no, Roy's dad has been dead WAY longer than a week.

Aaah ok. I didnt know there was a time limit.

[fergo]

I agree with Sunken Valley: he probably didn't care enough at the time to make arrangements to be reincarnated, and by the time he found out that he was stuck on the clouds, it was too late.

And even if he could somehow return to earth, what would be the point?

All he'd do is waste his time all over again, drag his feet and find reasons to avoid going after Xykon.

Sure, he may well jump at the chance to have even more time to waste, but I think he probably would be just as happy being unhappy in the clouds and having something to constantly whine about :smallbiggrin:.

[Eldray]

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.

[Thrax]

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.

Now that is weird. I wouldn't adhere to this part. I mean, how else would one reincarnate if not after death of old age? To be true to its name, it should allow that.

[King of Nowhere]

Actually, as far as i can read, even reincarnation don't work on those died of old age.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm

[Story Time]

So...what's required is a Wishful Reincarnation? ??:smallconfused:??

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Now that is weird. I wouldn't adhere to this part. I mean, how else would one reincarnate if not after death of old age?
Uh, how about by having the spell cast on you after you die of any other way other than old age?


To be true to its name, it should allow that.
Reincarnation just means being reborn in a different body. It has nothing to do with old age.

In fact, it is a pretty hard D&D rule that resurrection magic can do nothing on a creature that has died of old age.

[Thrax]

Reincarnation just means being reborn in a different body. It has nothing to do with old age.

Traditionally, everybody reincarnates (in religions and world views that believe in reincarnation). Whether you die of old age or not, you always reincarnate (in Buddhism, unless you become a buddha). So IMO, reincarnation should allow raising people dying of old age on that basis.


In fact, it is a pretty hard D&D rule that resurrection magic can do nothing on a creature that has died of old age.

Oh, I know. It was meant to be a final barrier for people trying to keep their characters going on forever. One obstacle they can't jump over. I agree with that and hold the old age to be final end mostly too, but in cases like this, I'd allow it, saying it's the final end for the body. Though I'd keep another final barrier - if the forces of the place where the soul's at are holding the soul there and not allowing it to come back.

[Psyren]

Traditionally, everybody reincarnates (in religions and world views that believe in reincarnation). Whether you die of old age or not, you always reincarnate (in Buddhism, unless you become a buddha). So IMO, reincarnation should allow raising people dying of old age on that basis.

Literally, all the word means is "come back in flesh." There's nothing in there that contradicts the D&D rules text.

Anyway, we have no way of knowing if him coming back would remove the oath from Roy or keep it from passing to Julia.

[Kish]

Traditionally, everybody reincarnates (in religions and world views that believe in reincarnation).
Those religions and worldviews do not reflect the established and documented afterlives of most D&D settings. The spell Reincarnate has nothing to do with religion.

[Thrax]

Those religions and worldviews do not reflect the established and documented afterlives of most D&D settings. The spell Reincarnate has nothing to do with religion.

Saying it has nothing to do with religion is like saying sand has nothing in common with earth. It comes from there, and players expect from something called "reincarnate" an adherence to what they see as reincarnation. {{scrubbed}}

[Kish]

At least players who did not spend 10 years oversaturated with the same edition of one game, and can think outside the box.
I wonder which edition I'm supposed to be oversaturated with.

The irony of you describing your insistence on imposing on D&D a concept of reincarnation based on real-world religion as "thinking outside the box" aside.

[Story Time]

Let's not cause a scene... Forum rules are the way they are for a reason.

The issue for the spell itself is the time limit. House rule a change in the time limit and the point of contention vanishes. One reason why the limit might exist is because of the natural decay of bio-degradable material. Also, it might encroach too closely into the Wish-like area?

[Kish]

The issue for the spell itself is the time limit. House rule a change in the time limit and the point of contention vanishes.
Actually, no. Even without the time-limit, in the absence of a house rule we have no indication Rich uses, Reincarnate, like every other resurrection spell, cannot be used on someone who has died of old age.

[Story Time]

Making two simple house rules in this case isn't much more difficult than making one. :smalltongue:

To turn the discussion back to where it should be, I think it'd be a painful disaster if Eugene returned to any mortal coil. Assuming Mister Burlew could not or would not might be a bit over-presumptuous.

[Absol197]

I was about to go on a huge rant and say that the SRD is wrong, and that reincarnate can indeed bring back someone who has died from old age, but then I checked my PHB and saw that, indeed, it cannot.

It seems that is something that they changed in Pathfinder. I guess I'm getting slightly out of touch with 3.5...

[blazingshadow]

maybe rezzing is out of the question but as an illusionist he could have used simulacrum to at least go and do the hard, time consuming parts like finding Xykon before kicking the bucket. would have been of some help for Roy too even if doing so would have driven Roy mad.

[Idhan]

What reincarnate can do that, say, raise dead cannot, is keep someone alive indefinitely, so long as they avoid dying of old age. Since old age is a pretty predictable cause of death (at earliest, it happens at venerable age + # of dice rolled for maximum age), suicide at, say, age 71 for humans + reincarnate can give you a new, young adult body, resetting the clock. So long as you can reliably gain at least one level between young adulthood and venerable age, this can keep you alive indefinitely.

(Of course, most druids probably wouldn't help you out with the whole "cheat death-by-natural-causes" thing. Still... I suppose core, there's limited wish/miracle to emulate reincarnate, and non-core, there are archivists, artificers, and chameleons.)

[factotum]

suicide at, say, age 71 for humans + reincarnate can give you a new, young adult body, resetting the clock.

Of course, said new, young adult body isn't necessarily *human* anymore...imagine coming back as a bugbear! :smallamused:

[Story Time]

I was about to go on a huge rant and say that the SRD is wrong, and that reincarnate can indeed bring back someone who has died from old age, but then I checked my PHB and saw that, indeed, it cannot.

It seems that is something that they changed in Pathfinder. I guess I'm getting slightly out of touch with 3.5...

Don't worry. I think it should be more accessible and that those two limitations are too limiting. I might change my opinion later, but that's how it is now. :smallsmile:

No offense to the people who made it, though.

[BaronOfHell]

As far as I understand, true resurrect wouldn't get tsukiko back. Would reincarnate?

[Kish]

True Resurrection would certainly bring Tsukiko back.

Reincarnate would not for the same reason Raise Dead or Resurrection wouldn't: It requires a body to be cast on.

[BaronOfHell]

Thank you.

From reading an earlier thread (maybe the particular strip thread, I don't recall) I got the impression it was common consenus that due to Tsukiko being eliminated through means of negative levels, true resurrect would only bring her back to see her vanish again immediatedly, because she'd still have negative levels.

[Kish]

No, that wasn't common consensus. One (1) person claimed that a few times, but he never supported it. The effects of dying of negative levels equal to a character's level are listed in the D&D books and the SRD; "completely unresurrectable even by True Resurrection" isn't one of them. ("Unraisable by Raise Dead" isn't even one of them; the only thing that makes Tsukiko hard to resurrect is that her body was entirely devoured by wights. If someone found a toe one of the wights missed on Redcloak's study floor, Resurrection would work to bring Tsukiko back.)

[krko]

Of course, said new, young adult body isn't necessarily *human* anymore...imagine coming back as a bugbear! :smallamused:

You mean gaining +4 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con as well as gaining three hit dice and other various sundry effects? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) Not a bad trade for an aging wizard.

[The MunchKING]

Makes returning to the missuss and harrassing your kids a bit harder though...

[Absol197]

You mean gaining +4 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con as well as gaining three hit dice and other various sundry effects? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) Not a bad trade for an aging wizard.

But then you have to take into account the social effects of coming back as a bugbear. Most common people will run away screaming, and any city you try to walk into will either likely kill you on sight, or "escort" you everywhere with a bunch of heavily armed guards. Most people don't like bugbears.

Also, I know it isn't in the spell as-written, but I think it would make sense if it also randomly determined your gender, too, which would be more than slightly awkward, I'd think.

[Idhan]

You mean gaining +4 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con as well as gaining three hit dice and other various sundry effects? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) Not a bad trade for an aging wizard.

I think it might not be a bad trade for an aging barbarian, or an aging fighter, but for a wizard, gaining 3 racial hit dice and a +1 level adjustment, in part to pay for a strength adjustment you don't care about anyway? It would be cool when you first came back, but it wouldn't be so fun to realize that while your wizard level is one lower than it used to be, your ECL is actually 3 higher.

Although actually, going from being an orc to being a human might be one of the worst reincarnations mechanically. You retain your orcish intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. You lose your orcish strength and darkvision. You don't gain a human bonus feat or 3 + level skill points, because feats and skill ranks are retained from your old character. The only thing you get is +1 skill point on new levels you gain -- hurray.

[Castamir]

If you get a race that fits you really bad, it takes only a level to re-roll.

Also, I don't see it taking mental age bonuses away -- so you can also cheese unlimited stats by simply living and reincarnating long enough. This does have a reasonable explanation -- you do have the insight of multiple lifetimes, and if actually played, it was an enormous amount of work -- but obviously some players would try to abuse it as they always do.

[Soylent Dave]

Traditionally, everybody reincarnates (in religions and world views that believe in reincarnation). Whether you die of old age or not, you always reincarnate (in Buddhism, unless you become a buddha). So IMO, reincarnation should allow raising people dying of old age on that basis.


You can still have that in your campaign world if you like.

The Reincarnation spell involves an outside agency magically interfering with the natural order of things

If everybody in your campaign world reincarnates when they die, then you can still have that happen, by virtue of saying "that's what happens" (provided a wizard doesn't intervene).

It'd just be something the gods have set up instead of an afterlife with heavens and hells and so on.

(as a side point, I like the idea of there being a 'final death' for characters, which they can't circumvent - even in campaigns with magical resurrection and revolving-door afterlives. Every character needs an end to his story.)