[PF] Dwarf Druid Advice needed.

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

we are finally starting our campaign next wednesday I am torn apart between a Dwarven Cleric or a Dwarven Druid. We are probably going at least up to level 10.
But since I never played a Druid or really played a cleric in a supportive role other than healer I'm a bit confused what to do.

With which one can I better support a group consisting out of at least one Dwarven Barbarian and 2 other guys not taking the part of a divine caster?

The main concern I see is: Dwarf gets +2 Wisdom, yeah it's nice but for the cleric it's gonna be suboptimal because of the charisma penality, affecting the Channel Energy Feature.

Now I would like to participate in combat and be able to have a supportive, healing role in the party, more like healing after the combat and protecting in the midst of combat.

For the cleric I have another problem that comes up...we are playing in Faerun with faerunian gods... and only one would bring a "good" weapon, Haela with her totally unfitting Greatsword... but her domains are... (Chaos, Dwarf, Luck, Good and War) not to my likes, maybe the Good-Domain, but yeah... that would be the only one.

I hope you can help me.

EDIT:

I have decided but seem to have run into a problem, see last post.

-snip-

[Bloodgruve]

I haven't run a lot of clerics but the druid I'm currently running is pretty mean. She is the healer/BC/Tank of our group. I went with the Spontaneous Rejuvenation ACF and the Shapeshifter ACF. Rejuv allows you to drop a spell slot and give 'fast healing' to the group for amount equal to the spells level for three rounds. Shapeshift is not as versatile as wild shape but its a swift action and simpler to use. The feat Spontaneous Healer allows you to cast the Cure line w/o being a cleric which is nice. I also took feats like Improved Natural Attack and Imp Toughness to help with the melee.

I spend most of my time in shapeshifted form and us swift actions to drop out and heal, buff or control.

[Krazzman]

Ah nice there is a feat for spontaneous cure spells. I like it.

I thought so far being a Ape Shaman, with the cave domain, fighting with a Quarterstaff with shillelagh cast on.

But your Idea, I'll read through it, if I'm no longer AFB this evening.

[Bloodgruve]

The ability to switch from casting powerhouse to bite your face off melee as a swift action is quite rewarding ;) Just try not to overshadow the rest of the group.

GL
Blood!

[Krazzman]

Sadly since I can't find it on the d20pfsrd I think they are all out. I'll ask the DM about Spontaneous Healer.

I hope other people can help me too.

[Krazzman]

Ok, before this thread goes down I would like to have one question answered.

Ape's can they speak so I can cast while wild shaped or do I have to take natural spell?

[Gavinfoxx]

My advice is mostly for 3.X, I'm not sure about what PF adds...

Remember that neither the Druid nor the Cleric is best played as a bandaid. Healer is NOT a role that is required by this game -- not by a long shot!

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710

Also remember that, as a druid, you can heal without getting thing that makes you LESS powerful.

After all, all of these things are NERFS to your power as a druid. They are reasonable nerfs, but if you don't know why a Druid might want a nerf to their power level, you might want to be careful with them:

Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

Remember, Summon Nature's Ally IV can get you plenty of healing. Also, a wand or two of Lesser Vigor can keep the party topped off. Also Draconic Aura (Vigor) is useful if people bug you about healing.

Looking at the Druid Handbook for Pathfinder:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-1

It looks like Druids got SOME nerfs, but not a whole lot of major stuff to really affect them. Glancing at some of the options for Druid, I would say that most of the stuff that takes them further and further away from the core concept of the Druid do actually lower their power quite a significant amount... you want wild shape, you want animal companion, you want casting.... a lot of the archetypes are substantially weaker than your basic Druid, by default.

[kulosle]

I'd also like to note that the best support in my humble, but well researched, opinion is the bard. The only other way there is to give out that much damage in buffs is with war weaver, but a bard can do that too. Also the bard has a lot of support friendly spells look at the bard handbook. Go divine bard if you are set on being a divine caster but then you start getting mad. See if your DM will let you be take prestigious divine bard. Sorry just had to say that.

More on topic. The better support character depends on how much book keeping you want to do, and how game breaking you want to get. If you go purely of spell list, while druids can scry better, the cleric has better buff oriented spells. Wild shape, on the other hand, lets you turn into what ever the situation calls for, but requires more book keeping. Clerics are better summoners though which comes with its own brand of support, monsters with spells of their own and what ever else you might need, but that is a lot of book keeping. Then there is the planar shepherd with it's unlimited number of free wishes but that's just too game breaking.

How set are you on divine? Bards, Transmuters, ad War weavers are all excellent support characters and you can put them all on one build if you want.

[ahenobarbi]

You could be Cleric of Panteon (you get too choose from more domains).

[Coidzor]

Druid gets share spells with its animal companion even in pathfinder, IIRC, so staying close to one another and buffing up prior to wildshaping means any personal buffs you dish out are doing double duty, so from a certain point of view... :smallwink:

What exactly do you want to be doing, answering that question for us will help point you in the right direction.

There's a fair number of ways to play "support," after all, so which one in particular are you favoring here?

[Krazzman]

I'm set on either Druid or Cleric, because of the Cha penality of dwarves which would be pretty bad for a caster-bard. Additionally I suck at playing bards.

The role I want to take is a supportive, healing after combat, ripping/melting faces one. Classes and ACF's or Archetypes shold stay in PF. Feats too, except for some single ones, where I have to ask our DM.

kulosle you are right, I know how good Bards are as supporters but as I mentioned I always get them wrong, I started 4 bards so far and they all died horribly and had super bad luck.

Thanks so far, I hope you can help me further.

Edit:

As mentioned, as druid I wanted to take Power Attack, use the quarterstaff two handed without twfing it and cast shillelagh on it. Taking the Domain instead of an Animal Companion in conjunction with the Cave Domain or if I go Ape Shaman and take Community Domain to get rid of our barbarians fatigue state after rage.

The cleric could do this too, so I am thinking about if I take cleric for the channel energy feature or druid for wildshape goodness.

[Acanous]

If you're going to take domains instead of an animal companion anyway, go Cleric. You'll get heavy armor prof. and don't need to worry about druid restrictions.
The animal companion is 1/3rd of the reason to go druid.

[kulosle]

The other two being wild shape and their spells. Interesting thought of breaking a class into reasons for taking it like that. Well the reasons to go cleric are spells domains and turn undead, to bad you can't persist spell on other people. Wait a sec, can a war weaver do it. He can cast personal spells into his tapestry and the whole party gets them, could he cast persisted spells into them? That would be interesting for a support. I'm sure there is a way to get war weaver on to a divine class. And if you are just taking a level dip for inspire courage, bards don't need charisma but i understand being set on druid or cleric.


I started 4 bards so far and they all died horribly and had super bad luck.

ooh that sounds like bad mojo. I believe heavily in game superstitions, you probably just should play anything bard like. I know that all my characters have to like animals, and every now and then i have to play a druid or it get really bad luck.

[Krazzman]

Uhm, in Pathfinder clerics no longer get heavy armor prof. and turn undead.
Instead they get Channel energy 30ft radius "spell" to heal 1d6 points of damage for every uneven cleric level. (1d6 neative energy damage if evil)

And I don't know if a variant of this channel would be better to take instead of wildshape goodness.

As mentioned I want to participate in melee, have an array of buff spells to push the other party members, have the ability to fix them up after combat and be versatile.

[Coidzor]

And I don't know if a variant of this channel would be better to take instead of wildshape goodness.

PF wildshape goodness? This I gotta see.


As mentioned I want to participate in melee, have an array of buff spells to push the other party members, have the ability to fix them up after combat and be versatile.

Most of the healing after combat, as has been mentioned, is covered by wands of CLW, provided that your DM isn't being a stingy, stingy manfish. So that you can use your spells on buffs.

At this point it sounds like what you really need to do is either A. outline your spell selection so we can comment helpfully on that or B. look over the spell lists yourself, as that seems to be the main place where you'd be making a decision.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, a while back, I made a 3.PF Druid and her animal companion... fleshraker and all! It was pretty badass...

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=17526

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=17556

Here are the Pathfinder Fleshraker stats I hashed out:

Starting Statistics: Size Small, Speed 50 ft, AC +1 Natural Armor; Attack: 2 claws (1d4 plus poison [frequency 1 round (6), effect 1 dex damage, cure 1 save, con-based DC]), bite (1d4); ability scores str 13, dex 19, con 13, int 2, wis 14, cha 12; special attacks Rake (1d4) (on charge or normal grapple); special qualities low-light vision, scent

7th-level adcancement: Size Medium; AC +2 natural armor; attack 2 claws (1d6 + poison), bite (1d6 plus trip and grab), ability scores str +4, dex -2, con +2; special attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6 on pounce, on charge, on normal grapple, or on grab via bite), trip

Pretty badass, and keeps the basic coherence of the Fleshraker, too... Remember, as a Druid, you want 1/3rd Animal Companion, 1/3rd Wild Shape, and 1/3rd Casting... like that character I just linked to! Its not a support or background character at all... it's more a 'primary melee combatant who can also cast out of combat healing spells from wands when needed'. Which is, you know, the Druid's primary competency...

[Krazzman]

No the point was if it is better to take Druid (1 Domain, Wildshape) or Cleric (2 Domains and Channel Energy).

But I think I now stay with Druid for the Dwarven campaign.

The next point is, I now know what the others are going to play.
My GF wants to play a Dwarven Barbarian in either campaign.
In the Dwarf only campaign, we would have one going to be a Stalward Defender and one that is not sure so far + me as Druid.
In the mixed one we would be Zen Archer (me), going to be Arcane Archer and a Cleric.

The thing I sought advice for were feats, since I never really played a Full caster as support. My Clerics fought more than that they casted spells.

Hope you now can help me better. I'm still open to change to cleric but so far Wildshape seems the easier path to be able to melee.

[Karoht]

Here is how I've been playing my Oracle which plays similarly to a Cleric.

Channel is nice, get the Quicken Channel feat ASAP. Why? Action economy.

By level 10, with one of the Phalacteries you can get (adds 2d6 per channel), this became my action economy.

Before action, determine how hurt people are.
Move Action:
-If no one is hurt, move normally
-If some people are severely hurt and I can reach my normal spellcasting target from where I am, and I can reach my injured party members with Channel, use Quicken Channel to do it now. 7D6 @ Level 10.
Standard Action:
-If party is still injured enough after that Quicken Channel, use another Channel. Another 7D6.
-If Party is fine, spellcast normally.

Caveat: If Spellcasting will prevent or greatly minimize further damage (IE-Sleetstorm to block spellcasting/range attack line of sight) consider conserving the Channel and just move and spellcast normally. It's a judgement call.

If you are worried about your number of Channel Attempts Per Day, purchase some ... Torchsticks? I think they are called? They give you 4 channel attempts per day, they're reuseable much like metamagic rods are. I've never used them personally, I've been told that they are in Pathfinder and that they grant free channels.

[Krazzman]

We have started the campaign this wednesday evening and we started out with 4 Dwarves.
My GF took the Barbarian Class as planned.
The other two took a Cleric of Clangeddin and a Cavalier of the Bear order or something like that.
I took the Druid class, believing in Chauntea (Gaia) and the Dwarven Pantheon in general.

We started at level 1. Generated ability Scores with 4d6b3. Or for the others as they had really sucktastic columns: 5d6b3. (Our DM's reason was to tone me a bit down for knowing many guides to certain classes and not be able to assing them on a Point-basis, but it somehow backfired...)
My Stats so far are
STR 17 DEX 17 CON 17 INT 15 WIS 19 CHA 9.
I put my points into Heal, Perception, Kn Nature, Survival, Spellcraft and one other skill I don't remember now...

I took Combat Reflexes and I expect myself to take Power attack on 3rd and on 5th Level Natural Spell (with DM approval).
Furthermore I went into trading my Animal Companion for the Earth Subdomain Caves.

But I'm a bit at a problem for good Wildshape forms and further feats. At level 6 I want to transform into earth elementals but I've got the feature from level 4 on. What Animalistic Forms could I take that are Known in the Underground. The only thing that comes to my mind is a Basilisk...which is not fitting (and if I remember correctly an illegal choice).

I hope you can help me find some good Forms (that a Dwarf can know so nothing too exotic) that are located in the western Heartlands of Faerun (we lived in a mountain about 2 days away from Baldur's Gate.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why do you need to limit yourself to forms known underground?

Max Knowledge Nature, describe it as your connection with nature giving you lore on the natural world at large every time you commune, and you'll be fine.

[Arbane]

Ape's can they speak so I can cast while wild shaped or do I have to take natural spell?

Apes can't speak, no. That's why in RL people have taught them sign-language. (Resulting in huge debates over HOW smart the apes are, but that's not really relevant here.)

There's also a feat in PF to allow a druid to speak in Wildshape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/wild-speech), which might be useful.

[Gavinfoxx]

Always, Always, Always take Natural Spell. And remember you take off some gear right before you wild shape -- any spell components, necklace, belt, other stuff that you can (maybe with help?) put back on. The best starting wild shape form is probably Deinonychus. Also remember you don't need to spend a feat to communicate with your crew: you can instead just get one of these:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items#TOC-Medallion-of-Thought-Projection

ALSO, did you or did you not look at the links on Druid Pathfinder optimization I sent you?

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfNDBnM3d6OHRjNg&hl=en

Read that.

And did you look at the optimized Druid and Animal Companion I made for 3.PF, that I have linked to you, yet? You haven't mentioned it, and seem to still have questions that reading this stuff would let you answer...

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=17526
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=17556

[Krazzman]

ALSO, did you or did you not look at the links on Druid Pathfinder optimization I sent you?



In fact I read some of them before asking. The problem was more in the fact it contradicted what I had in mind to do. (That's why I took Cave Domain instead of a Animal Companion). I took Combat Reflexes because I forgot again I couldn't take Power Attack at level 1. Gonna take it either on 3rd or 7th and Heavy Armor Profiency on the other. (Might even ask the DM to be allowed to change Combat Reflexes for HAP).

On your builds they seem solid but not quite the thing I was looking for.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well the Druid Handbook had two builds: One was a casting focused build, one was a melee and wild shape focused build...

[Blyte]

I am a little confused, is this 3.P or PF?

assuming it's PF, if you plan to play the ape shaman I suggest one of two domains.

Rage, if you are planning to melee a lot, as +4 Str will help a lot in conjunction with large/huge dire ape forms.

or

Community, if you are planning to be the main healer, shield other, as a domain spell, will be really nice to have... also you might lobby for your DM to include the druid regeneration spell line from 3.5