Illusions - in OOTS and DnD high level play

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

I never played an illusionist, and was always curious how one would be effective as one during high level play. I ask this because thinking about how this gate the OOTS is searching for (...and LG, and Team Evil) is protected.

Illusions and illusion-based spells (ie Weird) are useless against constructs, undead (right?), and a lot of high-end species/groups, and I would think that a high level character would tend to have a True Seeing something pretty much all the time.

While Illusion would be useful against OOTS/LG (barring the True Seeing), how does any illusion spell affect Xykon, or any undead for that matter?

[SaintRidley]

Xykon still has to make a save to disbelieve illusions.


Even without being epic, it is possible to create illusions that are more real than actual reality if you combine the correct prestige classes with the use of the Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration lines.

An Epic Illusionist could reasonably be expected to craft illusory traps that actually do more damage to you if you recognize their false nature than if you simply believed in the trap.

[NerfTW]

The biggest issue is that Rich will ignore the rules in favor of plot, and in this case, the "undead are immune to illusions" rule would probably go out the window. This is made more likely due to Xykon allowing the extraction of information from O'chul, since if he was immune to illusions, he would have just gone there straight away. (The diary has the illusion info in it.)

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Xykon still has to make a save to disbelieve illusions.


Was not aware of that. Thank you. Same with extra-planar beings?



Even without being epic, it is possible to create illusions that are more real than actual reality if you combine the correct prestige classes with the use of the Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration lines.


Again, did not know. Neat.



An Epic Illusionist could reasonably be expected to craft illusory traps that actually do more damage to you if you recognize their false nature than if you simply believed in the trap.

Please elaborate - not that i doubt it, but it strokes my curiosity.

[cloudland]

Roy mentioned that Girard block divination magic, so presumably Find the Path is not the only spell they cast, but other Divination spell have been tried off-panel too. True Seeing is divination, so it would not have work anyway. I am not sure if Girard can cast Dorukan's Cloister, or does he have his own version of blocking.

[FujinAkari]

in this case, the "undead are immune to illusions" rule would probably go out the window.

Particularly since that rule never existed in the first place :P

[Mastikator]

True seeing does not penetrate epic illusions.

Illusions let you fake the landscape and could easily create labyrinths that literally go on forever by tricking you into walking in circles.

Also, shadow evocation and shadow conjuration lets you basically do everything conjuration and evocation does. I'm sure there's a way epic shadow conjuration could let you travel to a different plane.

[SaintRidley]

Was not aware of that. Thank you. Same with extra-planar beings?


As an Undead, Xykon is immune to two types of Illusions: Patterns and Phantasms. He still interacts with others normally. Outsiders (like Sabine) are not immune to any type of Illusion unless they gain immunity through some means.



Again, did not know. Neat.



Please elaborate - not that i doubt it, but it strokes my curiosity.


Well, this is more extrapolation than anything, really.

For nonepics, it pretty much goes like this: Combine Shadowcraft Mage with Shadowcrafter. Both offer improvements to Illusions with the Shadow descriptor, which are already partly real. Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm) is a good example.

The Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872354/Shadowcraft_Mage_Handbook) has more info and gives a basic explanation of how you can tweak your shadow illusions toward being more real than reality.


Given that a non-epic caster can do such things, it follows that an epic Illusionist should be able to. I'm going to go into the SRD and look at seeds and see if I can't put together a sample (increasing the reality of the spell will be an ad hoc increase, but I'll figure something out there).

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Roy mentioned that Girard block divination magic, so presumably Find the Path is not the only spell they cast, but other Divination spell have been tried off-panel too. True Seeing is divination, so it would not have work anyway. I am not sure if Girard can cast Dorukan's Cloister, or does he have his own version of blocking.

Hurm. Interesting. Good point.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Particularly since that rule never existed in the first place :P

I wasn't sure - I had a distant memory about phantasms/mind immunity....but St Ridley elaborates further for me.


As an Undead, Xykon is immune to two types of Illusions: Patterns and Phantasms. He still interacts with others normally. Outsiders (like Sabine) are not immune to any type of Illusion unless they gain immunity through some means.


Gotcha. Spiffy.



Well, this is more extrapolation than anything, really.


Extrapolate away!



For nonepics, it pretty much goes like this
.......
Given that a non-epic caster can do such things, it follows that an epic Illusionist should be able to. I'm going to go into the SRD and look at seeds and see if I can't put together a sample (increasing the reality of the spell will be an ad hoc increase, but I'll figure something out there).

This is very neat - thank you for the info and time (all of you).

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

True seeing does not penetrate epic illusions.


Is it that is effectively doesn't (ie the epic illusion DC is so high) or just plain-old-doesn't (ie epic magic trumps non-epic)?

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Most illusions are not [mind-affecting].
...
Silent image is more like a hologram, and invisibility is more like a Star Trek cloaking device: i.e., it alters the patterns of light that get to someone's eyes, rather than altering the brain directly.


Did a bit more reading and I totally get that. Good analogy. Illusion fakes the photons, min-affecting makes you think the photons are there.



That said, yes, the availability of true seeing -- especially the at-will or supernatural versions so many outsiders get -- does put a crimp on the illusionist's style.

That's what I thought.

[Great Dane]

Dumb question (since I didn't play 3.5) but how would an illusionist even level up in a normal campaign? Presuming he didn't ban evocation he'd have access to damage-dealing spells. Would a pure illusionist even work?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Dumb question (since I didn't play 3.5) but how would an illusionist even level up in a normal campaign? Presuming he didn't ban evocation he'd have access to damage-dealing spells. Would a pure illusionist even work?

Extremely well assuming they use their high Int well. Illusion is very much a defensive and indirect school to say the least but it is by no means the same difficulty a Diviner would have with leveling up. Especially if you go the Killer Gnome route (except for the early levels, but those a sticky wicket any way).

[CharityB]

Honestly, I don't think an illusion-focused caster would have trouble leveling up. They get XP for defeating encounters, but I don't think I've ever played a 3.5 game where you had to deal a lot of damage as a blaster to get XP when the party wins an encounter. In the earlier parts of the comic, Elan rarely actually hits an enemy but he progresses at roughly the same pace as, say, Roy or Belkar.

(Besides, there are so many damage-dealing spells that even if you did ban Evocation you could probably bump off a number of enemies with just Conjuration. I don't even think a Diviner would have a problem either -- sure, you can't hurt too many people with Divination at low levels but you only have to ban one school so you still have 6 other schools worth of spells to play with!)

[Seonor]

Dumb question (since I didn't play 3.5) but how would an illusionist even level up in a normal campaign? Presuming he didn't ban evocation he'd have access to damage-dealing spells. Would a pure illusionist even work?

Technically you get experience by overcoming challenges. Killing things is just the only most common way to do that. So an illusionist would have enough sources of experience by doing other stuff. And in combat he would still be an important factor. Think false walls, fake pits, fake ground over real pits, dozen of extra attackers.

Heck Elan of all people managed to use illusions a few times to win battles (or avoid them completely). See here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) or here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html).

[SaintRidley]

So here are a couple of spells I came up with to work with on the idea of an epic illusion built to be more real than reality.

It's a pair of spells put together and overlapping, with long casting times because like Girard, let's say our hypothetical guy has a lot of time on his hands and has raised a family of wizards to help him in his rituals.

They're kind of rough, and don't quite capture the idea as well as I would like, but they're the sort of thing I would do in Girard's shoes.

Valley of the Damned (ritual)
Illusion [Figment, (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic)]

Spellcraft DC: 55
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 100 days 11 minutes
Range: 12,000 ft.
Area: Visual figment that can extend for up to forty 30-ft. cubes
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will Half disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 495000 gp; 10 days; 19,800 XP. Seeds: Delude (DC 14), Energy (to create weather) (DC 25), Energy (to create an emanation of an energy type (DC 19). Factors: interact with all five senses (+10 DC), 5 illusory beings (+5 DC) following a script (+9 DC), completely masks the area with new geography (+4 DC), +20d6 damage from the energy effect (+20 DC), +5 to save DC (+5 DC), Increase area by 100% (+4 DC), make effect permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), Increase casting time by 100 days (-200 DC), burn 17,000 XP (-170 DC), ten additional casters each contributing a 7th level spell slot (-130 DC).


This spell creates the illusion of a complete environment, with up to five inhabitants and fully functioning weather. At the time of casting, the caster sets the script for the inhabitants determining how they react to new information and real creatures.

All illusory effects created by this spell appeal to the five senses. They can be tasted, smelled, touched and handled, seen, heard, and have natural-seeming heat signatures. Physical interaction occurs just as with real objects and creatures. If for some reason a creature finds fault in the illusion, they must make a Will save to disbelieve the illusion. The DC for the saving throw is 25 + the caster's relevant ability modifier.

The weather effects emanate 22d6 damage (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) each round to everything within 10 feet of the simulated weather effect. A successful will save to disbelieve the illusion still results in half damage.

(etc. etc. fill in more info, this is just a basic idea of what the spell is meant to do).



The Unreal Reveals Itself
Divination [acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic]
Spellcraft DC: 55
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 100 days 11 minutes
Range: 12,000 ft.
Effect: Mobile Magical Sensor (speed 30 ft.)
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 540000 gp; 11 days; 21,600 XP. Seeds: Reveal (to create the sensor) (DC 25), Energy (to create bolt of an energy type (DC 19). Factors: Contingent on a specific trigger (successful will save against Valley of the Damned) (+25 DC), +20d6 damage from the energy effect (+20 DC), +5 to save DC (+5 DC), make the sensor mobile (+2 DC), make sensor autonomous (ad hoc +5 DC), make effect permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), Increase casting time by 100 days (-200 DC), burn 12,000 XP (-120 DC), ten additional casters each contributing a 7th level spell slot (-130 DC).

This spell creates a mobile sensor that patrols the area of the Valley of the Damned spell. Should a successful Will saving throw be made against Valley of the Damned, the sensor will track down the creature that made the will save and unleash a bolt of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) that deals 30d6 damage with a Reflex save for half damage. The DC for the saving throw is 25 + the caster's relevant ability modifier.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

So here are a couple of spells I came up with to work with on the idea of an epic illusion built to be more real than reality.


That was really, really cool.

Thank you for the effort and time it took.

Thank you!

[blazingshadow]

the comic is using open game content but you can also make epic illusions using the shadow seed to create whatever you want that not only fools any creatures around but fools reality itself

[A Weeping Angel]

This is my favorite use Elan's illusions to help in a tight spot. oots0805 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0805.html)

[Yaminsoul]

Ah, Shadowcraft mage. One of my favorite classes, especially combined with Shadowcrafter and Master Specialist on a Whisper Gnome. My GM was also going Gesault (2 classes at once, pick best of each) and went rogue other side...that was a fun character :)

About the leveling up as an illusionist in 3.5...well as said, you level up generally with your party, so even if you don't directly contribute in every circumstance, still get to level up...and presumably you can have other, non-illusion spells...and you can do a lot with a well built illusionist even at low levels (invisibility alone....)

As for the point about true seeing, yes it can nerf some illusion spells, but not all, and in most cases caster cannot have it up all the time (relatively short duration and it cost money.) A ring or helm of true seeing is great, but its actually a non-core item (though one most GM's I have played with allow)

Finally, yeah many high level illusion spells are percentage real, so even if the person has true seeing (or even mind blank, with is often a better choice) they can be effected.

[EnragedFilia]

There is a core option (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gemofSeeing) for True Seeing via gear, although it's not permanent or passive.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Thanks to the follow up responses too - I was always uncertain about illusions (90% of my DnD experience is with video games, from Gold-Box series, BG, Torment, through Neverwinter Nights.....), hence my Q's.

Very interesting!

[LordRahl6]

Also aren't there high level illusion spells that do more than confuse the sense of sight, but the rest as well. I'm getting at this because wouldn't it confuse Belkar's ability to say there's sand blowing OUT of that wall.:smallconfused:

[Yaminsoul]

@re LordRahl

The way illusions creation effects work (at least the way I and other GM's I knew did them in 3.5) is that they effect ALL the senses, unless the spell specifically said they do not (like silent image or ghost sounds) UNTIL someone makes the saving throw against them and/or interacts with them in a way proving they are false (and sometimes not even the later)

So, yes a powerful illusion, in theory, could effect smell, or hearing, or touch even, depending on the way the GM runs them (or in this case, the way Giant orders his world)

The murkiness comes when 1 person in a party makes the save, and the rest do not, but usually I let that person "point out" that it was fake and gave the party another save at a big bonus. That's really up to the GM or storyteller though....

BTW their is 9th level non-core spell, I believe, called superior invisibility that hides the caster from "all" sense, including smell....

[LordRahl6]

Thanks, Yaminsoul. I thought such a spell existed, but the specifics were lost to me since its been a while since my last game, and I don't have my books.:smallwink:

[Emanick]

Thanks, Yaminsoul. I thought such a spell existed, but the specifics were lost to me since its been a while since my last game, and I don't have my books.:smallwink:

Yeah, I think that spell is from Complete Arcane (and originally, I think, from Tome and Blood). I don't have my D&D books in my dorm with me, but I seem to remember it being able to fool all five senses as well as Invisibility Purge, as well as being capable of eliminating one's shadow and footprints. Obviously it would also be difficult to dispel, since any caster who can cast it is going to be extremely powerful.

So technically it's not core, but I would be extremely surprised if Girard's spell book is comprised entirely of core spells. He's an epic illusionist; he probably spends most of his time researching new, devilishly complex illusion-style magic. Even if he doesn't have access to Superior Invisibility, he's probably researched a functionally equivalent spell by now.

[Tulya]

Thanks to the follow up responses too - I was always uncertain about illusions (90% of my DnD experience is with video games, from Gold-Box series, BG, Torment, through Neverwinter Nights.....), hence my Q's.

Very interesting!

Ah, that explains much. Much of the true power of the Illusion school of magic relies heavily upon the creativity of the caster paired with very open-ended spells. Computer games aren't really equipped to handle such complex open-ended interactions, so they usually just drop the flexible spells entirely. It tends to leave the Illusion school offering little more of value than Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image type effects. Great effects, but only the tip of the iceberg of what Illusion should be.

Edit: Mind, subtle and creative use of any spell is rewarding, and all schools of magic are capable of producing complex interactions.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Edit: Mind, subtle and creative use of any spell is rewarding, and all schools of magic are capable of producing complex interactions.

Totally 100% agreed. I always wanted to play a pacifist illusionist in a DnD game....now I just gotta find a game! hehe.

[Particle_Man]

Because illusionists work better with some preparation time, they can be more deadly in the hands of the DM than in the hands of a PC (who can often be rushed into combat).

Based on personal experience, the OOTS should thank their lucky stars that Xykon is not an illusionist lich. :)

That said, I had a lot of fun with a pathfinder sorcerer that *only* took illusions spells (except for the arcane bloodline spells).

[WeLoveFireballs]

I recently ran a stealth based adventure and illusions are incredibly useful when used properly. Being able to disguise yourself, turn invisible or convince the guards it was just a dog that made the hole into his secret passage makes stealth incredibly easy. Once they used an illusion to convince a few guards there was a cave-in to get past them. It's fun seeing just how creative people can be with their abilities.

[denthor]

At low levels an illusionist has color spray. Depending upon the Hit dice of the creature it can:

5th or more stun for one round.

3rd/4th blind for 1d4 rounds plus stun for one round

1st/2nd makes them fall down and not get up for 2d4 rounds then blind for 1d4 plus stun 1 round.

At low levels this is a great spell gains you Experience points and you can gain levels only problem is that you have be 15 feet from the enemy.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

At low levels an illusionist has color spray.

Oooo used that a LOT in BG!

[Squark]

Ah, that explains much. Much of the true power of the Illusion school of magic relies heavily upon the creativity of the caster paired with very open-ended spells. Computer games aren't really equipped to handle such complex open-ended interactions, so they usually just drop the flexible spells entirely. It tends to leave the Illusion school offering little more of value than Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image type effects. Great effects, but only the tip of the iceberg of what Illusion should be.

Edit: Mind, subtle and creative use of any spell is rewarding, and all schools of magic are capable of producing complex interactions.

Actually, in both of the Neverwinter Nights games, Illusion is considered to be the best school to specialize in. Then again, Specializing in Illusion is a free spell slot (with no restriction on it's use) at the cost of a relatively week school (Enchantment. Enchanted creatures don't interact well with the game's XP system).

[Particle_Man]

By the way, if you want even more fun and games, try an illusionist in 1st ed AD&D. :)

[Jzadek]

I only ever played one in 3.5. What sort of things do they do? I may need to go and dig out some of my old volumes...

[Particle_Man]

In 1st ed, the illusionist spell list and the magic-user spell list were quite different. The illusionist got spells that no one else ever got, and they got other magic-user spells way earlier than the magic-users did. Not just illusions, either. Try Maze at 5th level vs. Maze at 8th level, etc. Another fun one is "Dispel Exhaustion" which gave someone temporary healing.

The Shadow Conjuration family of spells was a lot more free form, as you could make up any critters that fit your level cap. On the down side, you could not duplicate just any conjuration spell. Similarly, the Shadow Evocation family was also limited.

Also, illusionists levelled up fast at high levels compared to magic-users. Perhaps this was to counter the illusionists not getting spells higher than 7th level (only magic-users got 8th and 9th level spells).

Also, except for very high level divination stuff, most illusion spells were cheap and easy on the material components, if you go by those rules. Some were even without verbal components, giving one "free" silent spell feat equivalents, I guess. :)

Oh, and they could also summon shadows (your strength draining friends!).

One of their spells basically was confusion, but if you are not a fighter or an illusionist you get no save, sucks to be you. :)

Down sides? High ability score prerequisites, and only gnomes and humans could be them, and gnomes had a low level cap. Also couldn't use all the magic items their magic-user buddies could. Mind you, the combination of a high ability score prerequisite and a limited list of spells by level in the players handbook (pre-unearthed arcana) meant that the illusionist was very likely going to be able to learn the spells that they wanted to learn.

Also, being 1st ed., a lot of what illusions could and could not do was left up to individual DM discretion. Whether that is an up or down side depends on your views of this, and in play, upon your views of the DM in question.

Damn, now I want to play one! :)

[Chronos]

They also got a Wish-like spell called, IIRC, Alter Reality. Basically, you make an illusion of what you want that's so convincing, you manage to convince the Universe itself of it.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Actually, in both of the Neverwinter Nights games, Illusion is considered to be the best school to specialize in. Then again, Specializing in Illusion is a free spell slot (with no restriction on it's use) at the cost of a relatively week school (Enchantment. Enchanted creatures don't interact well with the game's XP system).

Thank you for telling me this. I am literally about to play NWN2 again, and I was thinking generic mage, but illusionist it is!

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

By the way, if you want even more fun and games, try an illusionist in 1st ed AD&D. :)

I also read you follow up response....very neat....i do like gnomes too.

[Anarion]

Actually, in both of the Neverwinter Nights games, Illusion is considered to be the best school to specialize in. Then again, Specializing in Illusion is a free spell slot (with no restriction on it's use) at the cost of a relatively week school (Enchantment. Enchanted creatures don't interact well with the game's XP system).

It is the best school to specialize in, although I don't think the game is easy if you only use illusion spells. It's mostly that you fight tons of stuff immune to enchantment and the extra spell slots can basically be spent on anything as long as you're memorizing at least one illusion spell of each level, so it's almost pure upside.


However, video games really don't do justice to the power of illusions. Read just the basic description of Silent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm) as it's used in D&D 3.5. Then think about that for a second. You can make anything as long as it fits within the space provided by the spell. Some images might be more or less believable, but in almost any situation there's an inventive way to create an illusion that will weaken or frustrate enemies. They're only limited by your imagination.