Help with a dragon campaign

[Ast]

Hi there,

let's just say that we plan to start a campaign where we play true dragons. It's weird, I know, but I think Draconomicon has enough material to make this fly.

What criteria would you suggest when choosing a dragon, so that the party would not end up with gold dragons only?

They are probably most powerful so it shouldn't be age category. Why would someone play an adult copper dragon when he can play an adult gold dragon :D For flavor and story purpose you say and I agree. But we want to keep things also relatively balanced (so when someone chooses 'lesser' dragon, he won't be punished for that).

So: age category definately not. Maybe HD? I came up with Challenge Rating. For instance: let's consider two dragons: radiant dragon (draconomicon) and gold dragon. Great wyrm GD is obviously more powerful (because of the spellcasting which RD lacks). But when I say that we choose dragons from Challenge Rating of maximum 23, we have interesting situation: one can have a great wyrm radiant dragon with that but only very old gold dragon. Seems somewhat balanced (the former has better HP and attacks, better breath weapon, but doesn't cast spells like 13th level sorcerer with accces to cleric spells).

Thoughts? :)

[Linkscoolfriend]

You could try making the dragon statistics and abilities static, the same no matter what color they play, of course offering different energy resistance and breath weapons etc. based on color. Will the party be gaining class levels or levels as dragons?

[Ast]

Will the party be gaining class levels or levels as dragons?

Yet to be determined, but probably both. Everyone begins with standard dragon levels and then we proceed as described in Draconomicon. Making them static probably will be considered, thanks :)

[Linkscoolfriend]

No prob. Sounds like a fun campaign idea, almost like jumping right into epic level. Could be very interesting if two players choose opposing dragons, like a red and a gold in the same group. Good luck man. :smallcool:

[Orbin Dules]

You could try limiting the ECL of the party. For example, you could make it so that the ECL of the Party is 12, so that someone could either play a recently hatched wyrmling gold dragon with 8HD, or a 16 year old young white dragon with 9HD. Sure, the gold would be slightly more powerful with it's innate abilities compared to the white's 1 extra hit die, but the white also has the advantage of having a land, swim, flight, and burrow speed, making it one of the most mobile of all the true dragons. The difference between the Gold and the White would be similar to the difference between. a 12th level rogue, and a 12th level barbarian. If you need help with ECL, check page 143 of the Draconomicon

[Aneurin]

I'm running a by-CR group now. Just be... careful. The CR system is a little odd, plus how do you make up the CR shortfall?

I went by allowing class levels as if advancing a monster (so +half CR for unassociated class levels, and +1CR for associated class levels and prestige classes). Someone used these rules to make a 42HD dragon at CR21. I don't mind that, it's just something you need to think about.

You could just work out some level adjustments for older dragons, it may be easier. Or if you're playing below level 20 most of the MM1 dragons have level adjustments.


Don't do HD or you WILL end up with a party full of gold dragons, unless your players prefer not to power game. When going by HD golds are the strongest of all the core dragons.

At the end of the day, I think CR is one of the best ways to handle it - just think carefully about designing encounters.

[TypoNinja]

I'm playing a dragon in a campaign (along side a cleric and a wizard) we've noticed a few things mechanically that might trip you up vs the usual PC's.

I'm way more mobile, on the ground and in the air, dragons are fast. We've bypassed a couple of air encounters by simply moving more than twice as fast as our opponents. Also, Things don't get to flee. Not much has the sheer speed of a dragon in flight. Even on battle field scale, I can basically make a literal flying leap to engage a target of my choice. Caster covered by a line of fighters? No problem.

Very high damage output on the full attack, especially at lower levels. 5 attacks at medium sized, and no iterative attack penalties if you take multi-attack makes them accurate, and hard hitting. Expect frequent one-shotting of most foes.

The Dragon's Blindsense will likely really annoy you as the DM in short order. You just can't sneak up on a Dragon, if its within 60 feet, they know about it.

Low HP. Despite the d12's and ability bonuses, almost half your character level is Level adjustment until very high levels. For example my Fang Dragon is currently a +4 and 6HD, next level is another LA.

Low AC to go with your low HP. Can you say Glass Cannon? AC is a function of hitdice, which sounds cool until you realize that you don't have very many, add no armour and dex being the only score dragons don't increase by age means a dragon PC has less naked AC than a naked monk. Expect anything with a HD=BAB progression to smack you around with impunity.

Unless you go epic, you don't get to play "Dragon" in the big bad sense that most people think of when they think "Oh ****, Dragon!" You are by an large playing dragon children.

[That_guy_there]

i've played in a low level Dragon campaign as well... and the Dm used the Age catagories as a jumping off point (we started at Juvenile) and Told Us that we could pick any dragon that fit CR 10 and Juvenile. We then went about earning Xp as if we were PCs of an appropriate Level (using CR as Level). He then let those of us who didn't have the same number of hit dice as the dragon with the most to take class levels to compensate. When we aquired enough hit dice to move to the next age catagory we gained the advancements and increases indicated.

A interesting thing we found was that with the Dragonomicon (and allowing us to build our dragons as PCs by replacing standard feats with ones we qualified for) there were A LOT of ways we could make ourselves more able to control the battlefield.

Also be aware that the Dragononicon has several other "true" tragon types (the Planar Dragons). IN fact out of the three PCs we had two of these dragons.

I played a Pyroclastic Dragon. Its built in the same way a Red is with an awesome Breath Weapon (also a second breath weapon of sonic & Fire but thats not the game changer). Save vs Disintigration, is. As soon as I qualified for shape Breath i had a cone that could disintigrate as many creatures that could fit in my area.

that said it was a fun game while it lasted, and he had us facing CR stuff routinely 2-3 CR above of actual "levels"... and that seemed to work ok for us.

[hex0]

The Dragon Mystic PRC. Look it up!

Also, don't use CR...it is goofy.

Can you buyoff LA?

[Hyde]

CR is probably a decent yardstick to go by, rather than age categories (Since an ancient wyrm white dragon is kind of laughable compared to the gold).

I would also start relatively small. Since not every dragon can assume a human form, larger dragons might have trouble fitting into certain places. I'd personally say no larger than "large" would be a good benchmark.

Something else in determining types is the kind of campaign you're going to be playing. Unless you're going to just disregard the meaning of color, Gold and Silver dragons tend towards the "Very Good to Paladin" range of alignments, where copper and bronze dragons are a little more flexible. And your chromatic dragons run the opposite way, with the lesser varieties tending to more evil, and the reds can't really be bothered to put the effort into being truly horrible.

Younger dragons are more likely to have something to prove, and are thus more likely to go adventuring, for whatever reason.

Someone mentioned advancing statistics when you reached enough hit dice to qualify for another age category. I'd probably not do that, and just advance through class HD. Most of the Dragon's relative abilities are related to total HD, not just racial HD, so advancing things like natural armor without taking the commesurate size penalty could get needlessly out of hand.

[hex0]

I suddenly have an odd request for one of the PCs to be a Fang Dragon Warblade. :smallamused:

[That_guy_there]

I suddenly have an odd request for one of the PCs to be a Fang Dragon Warblade. :smallamused:

Now thats just sick.:smallsmile:

[candycorn]

Don't do HD or you WILL end up with a party full of gold dragons, unless your players prefer not to power game. When going by HD golds are the strongest of all the core dragons.

Brass are stronger, by HD.

A 37 HD brass has effective sorceror level 19. A 37 HD gold gets effective sorceror level 15. That's 9th level spells vs 7th level spells. Since the Brass gets access to Cleric spells, that means, among other things, a non-deity dependent Miracle.

The power of that cannot be emphasized enough. That alone will tip the scales to favor the Brass. It's the most powerful spellcaster of all the core dragons. That makes it the most powerful of all core dragons, HD for HD.

Age category alone will make Gold dragons more powerful, as the Brass above is a Great Wyrm, whereas the Brass is an Ancient.

[Tvtyrant]

I would limit them to evil dragons, and then evolve them by HD (when they reach enough to increase ages, do so). They are roughly equal at each HD, with whites and blacks being slightly behind. The Red is a little ahead of everyone, but not enough so to ruin playing a black or blue IMO.

[deuxhero]

One option is that new monster class system homebrew someone else can link to.

Steel Dragon gish works fine too.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder if you could do it as a gestalt; you gain levels as normal and evolve by age categories when you reach the right HD. That would be pretty awesome.

[Acanous]

Gestalt would be the most fun way to do it, but would make DM encounter design very difficult.

You could run the dragon games, where the PCs are competing against eachother politically, giving favors to adventurers and sending challenges after opposed ones. That's pretty fun, but requires a certain type of player.

[TypoNinja]

I wonder if you could do it as a gestalt; you gain levels as normal and evolve by age categories when you reach the right HD. That would be pretty awesome.

How would that work with the LA? Cause that still leaves you with three progressions, an LA, a dragon HD, and a PC class. Where do you put the LA's?

would a 2 LA break down 1/1 or 2/0

[Ast]

First of all, wow, thanks for the responses.
Second, I will most certainly not be the DM. I just posted this thread to gather some intel and opinions to help my DM consider all the options.

Regarding LA: I don't think this will be an issue. Since everyone has to pick a dragon, we probably won't be using ECL and LA at all. Shouldn't be a problem to organize this, since we are also playing two epic level campaigns with normal PC's who are probably more powerful than older wyrms.

[GodGoblin]

There was an issue of Dragon magazine (I dont know the number) that had Dragon classes from levels 1-20, I believe it covered all the main colours too, would definatly be worth a look I think.

[Heliomance]

I've played in a campaign like this, an adaptation of the old 2ed Council of Wyrms setting. We did it essentially gestalt - saves, BAB, skills, HD size and everything were based off our class levels, but we also got the bonuses of dragons of equal hit dice - stat boosts, natural armour, spellcasting etc. I think we ran it off ECL, so hit dice plus LA - though, as we all had a lot of LA, we didn't pay much attention to that. It was good fun, but got very, very silly. If memory serves, our party was thusly:

White dragon Barbarian, became party leader despite his starting Int of 4, and eventually ruler of the nation we founded. Took Frenzied Berserker, Draconic (refluffed Dwarven) Defender, and was planning to go into Dragon Ascendant. I will never forget the time he landed on an enemy Dracolich's nose and declared "I defend this spot."
Copper dragon Bard (me), his herald. A hellacious Charisma, Sublime Chord, Dragonsfire Inspiration and a Marshal dip made me horrifying. I eventually married Hlal ^_^
Emerald dragon Psion, heading into Psion Uncarnate
Crystal dragon... sorcerer, I think? Eventually became a platinum dragon through service to Bahamut
Blue dragon Wizard, I think he was planning on becoming a deity of magic.
Druid, can't remember what colour

[Tvtyrant]

How would that work with the LA? Cause that still leaves you with three progressions, an LA, a dragon HD, and a PC class. Where do you put the LA's?

would a 2 LA break down 1/1 or 2/0

You would be ignoring LA entirely and running it off of HD. The LA is meant to balance you against PCs, but since the party does not have any none-dragons there is no real benefit to using it.

[TypoNinja]

You would be ignoring LA entirely and running it off of HD. The LA is meant to balance you against PCs, but since the party does not have any none-dragons there is no real benefit to using it.

Wouldn't that still leave you with major issues attempting to balance encounters vs the group? ECL doesn't just balance the party, its determines EL's you should face. Plus if encounters were just scaled up, XP gain per encounter would break as well, as a 5th level party mopped the floor with EL's double or more the party level. It seems like at the very least you need a 'shadow' LA just to keep the CR system in line.

[Tvtyrant]

Wouldn't that still leave you with major issues attempting to balance encounters vs the group? ECL doesn't just balance the party, its determines EL's you should face. Plus if encounters were just scaled up, XP gain per encounter would break as well, as a 5th level party mopped the floor with EL's double or more the party level. It seems like at the very least you need a 'shadow' LA just to keep the CR system in line.

My suggestion would be CR=HD+3 as the system, since a dragon isn't really any stronger than a tier 3 character of the same HD. Since it is a gestalt you would would move it up like you would a normal gestalt, but more than that.

[Andry]

I would try to get a hold of the old Council of Wyrms box set for some pretty good fluff playing as a dragon

[hex0]

Now thats just sick.:smallsmile:

And in flavor!

[Shalist]

It's worth noting that smaller dragons 'mature' faster than bigger dragons--that is, their draconic abilities are more developed for the same HD. For instance, a brass dragon gets its first caster level at 10, and frightful aura, etc, at 14; meanwhile, a gold gets its first caster level at 14, and the other stuff at 18 (though despite it's "youth," the gold is still a size bigger and 8str tougher at 14 HD, to say nothing of that yummy d10 breath weapon).

So, if you go straight HD, they are fairly balanced with one another despite the difference in age categories; however, if you go by straight age group, the difference in HD skews things a bit in favor of 'bigger' dragons.

---

On a side note, per the Draconomicon (pg 29ish sidebar), dragons don't use material components when they cast with their racial casting levels (which stack with regular sorcerer levels); also, they cast spells from the cleric spell list as arcane spells, which makes filling your pidly spells known so much more painful...

Use {Scrubbed} or {Scrubbed} (use 'gold' as a keyword for the material component) nifty databases searches to find spells to take advantage of this...off hand, 'favorable sacrifice' (1st level in Complete Miniatures, 3rd level in SC; 10,000 gold of material components gets you hr/lvl of 20/magic DR, 20/ acid/fire/cold/sonic/lightning resist, and CL+10 spell resistance) comes to mind as somewhat extreme examples of why this is awesome.

[Zaranthan]

It's a bit late to the party, but here's that list of monster classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0). All ten MM1 true dragons are in there, and they've got some good variety to them.

[Marnath]

also, they cast spells from the cleric spell list as arcane spells, which makes filling your pidly spells known so much more painful...


I don't see anything that suggests they have to select cleric spells with their spells known. The way it's worded always lead me to believe they can cast all cleric spells and the spells from whatever domains are listed.

[Shalist]

They can cast all sorcerer/wizard spells, and in addition, most (all?) of them can cast spells from the 'cleric' list (and a few domains) as if they were arcane spells.

Having so many more spells to choose from--when they're still saddled with the sorcerer's pidly 'spells known'--is what makes choosing so difficult :P

[candycorn]

It's worth noting that smaller dragons 'mature' faster than bigger dragons--that is, their draconic abilities are more developed for the same HD. For instance, a brass dragon gets its first caster level at 10, and frightful aura, etc, at 14; meanwhile, a gold gets its first caster level at 14, and the other stuff at 18 (though despite it's "youth," the gold is still a size bigger and 8str tougher at 14 HD, to say nothing of that yummy d10 breath weapon).

Brass is a bad example. All core dragons gain their spell levels by a set pattern, except Brass. Brass gets spells faster than any other dragon. For example:

Sorc Level 1{table]Dragon Type | HD | CR
White | 18 | 12
Green | 14 | 8
Red | 13 | 7
Gold | 14 | 9
Silver | 13 | 7
Brass | 10 | 6[/table]
Kinda all over, and close, but Brass is lowest, and white, a smaller dragon, is the highest CR and HD for caster level 1.

Sorc Level 9{table]Dragon Type | HD | CR
White| 30 | 18
Green| 26 | 18
Red| 25 | 18
Gold| 26 | 19
Silver| 25 | 18
Brass| 22 | 15[/table]
Things get clearer, with every type being CR 18-19, except Brass, which is CR 15.

Sorc Level 13{table]Dragon Type | HD | CR
White| 36 | 21
Green| 32 | 21
Red| 31 | 21
Gold| 32 | 22
Silver| 31 | 21
Brass| 28 | 19[/table]
Once again, HD vary a bit, but every dragon is within 1 CR , except for Brass, which is again low by 2.

Brass is a better spellcaster than any other Core Dragon, per HD, and per CR.

[hex0]

Brass is a better spellcaster than any other Core Dragon, per HD, and per CR.

And that makes them awesome for a Dragon Campaign, right? :smallamused:

Edit: Again, the Dragon Mystic PRC from an earlier Dragon Magic is very fun...

[drax75]

Sort of a Necro?

I really am considering running a Campaign in which the party members have been turned into dragons.

or had their souls placed within dragons, etc.... Dragon player characters will be involved.

Currently the party has a average level of 6 or 7 class levels.

So likely they will be a dragon with those class levels.

I would like to let them pick what color/type of dragon they want to be, but as this thread seems to say their is no real good way to limit their choices.

I am curious what people think now given about a year has passed since the last comment.

(also as a side note to this since it will be relevant, and i cant find the answer. Is EPIC character level 20 or class level 20? and does this include racial hit dice, like those gained from Dragon? I ask because this could give them access to epic feats very quickly.)

Thank you everyone ahead of time.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do something that takes into account:

CR

ECL

Those are the two metrics you should generally go by...