Warblade, Swordsage or Daring Outlaw?

[Ormur]

I'm having a bit of a trouble with one side of my gestalt character in a long running campaign. We recently got to level 11 and I'm playing a Beguiler//Daring Outlaw (Beguiler10/Mindbender1//Rogue3/Swashbuckler8). When I enter melee I TWF with a rapier and a dagger. It has become a very undead heavy campaign so I have a wand of gravestrike in a wand chamber (and of course the next fight was with golems).

I've been emphasizing the Swashbuckler for the BAB (fractional of course) but its class features are pretty lackluster. Is branching into ToB classes worth the loss of the last sneak attack dies and if so should I go Warblade or Swordsage? My character is very intelligence focused but doesn't even have a positive wisdom score so Warblade would be better in that respect.

[gkathellar]

If you go swordsage, you won't have to lose any sneak attack, due to Assassin's Stance.

[FMArthur]

Neither Warblade nor Swordsage actually take much of a hit from having a low 'primary' mental attribute. Most maneuvers don't use any ability score besides the one you swing your sword arm with.

Anyway there are two routes you can go here:
Spend a couple levels in Swordsage/Warblade for quick access to a bunch of nice maneuvers (you'd get to choose third level maneuvers when dipping at 12th level), then pick up where you left off in Swashbuckler and continue to rack up Sneak Attack dice while delivering/enhancing your attacks with your snazzy new bag of ToB tricks.
Take the rest of your martial levels in a ToB class on that side of the gestalt. You won't lack for damage, really, since the maneuvers themselves have extra damage dice plus a wide variety of other effects that come with them.

It's a toss-up between Swordsage or Warblade for the first option - do you want to have a lot of tricks or do you want to do a few tricks a lot of times without slowing down? Swordsage is for the first, Warblade is for the second. The classes' designated mental attributes hardly matter at all for this option.

For the second option, the Warblade will reap you noticeable gains for having a strong Intelligence stat because you'll be spending enough levels to get your full Intelligence to Reflex saves and getting it on weapon damage (a second time after your Swashbuckler levels) after 7 levels. You have enough abilities from your existing classes that you shouldn't be desperate for full Swordsage maneuver progression at least.


There is a last 'option' in staying Swashbuckler, but it really is inferior. You won't lag in damage by going into ToB if that's what you fear.

[enderlord99]

Neither Warblade nor Swordsage actually take much of a hit from having a low 'primary' mental attribute. Most maneuvers don't use any ability score besides the one you swing your sword arm with.

Anyway there are two routes you can go here:
Spend a couple levels in Swordsage/Warblade for quick access to a bunch of nice maneuvers (you'd get to choose third level maneuvers when dipping at 12th level), then pick up where you left off in Swashbuckler and continue to rack up Sneak Attack dice while delivering/enhancing your attacks with your snazzy new bag of ToB tricks.
Take the rest of your martial levels in a ToB class on that side of the gestalt. You won't lack for damage, really, since the maneuvers themselves have extra damage dice plus a wide variety of other effects that come with them.

It's a toss-up between Swordsage or Warblade for the first option - do you want to have a lot of tricks or do you want to do a few tricks a lot of times without slowing down? Swordsage is for the first, Warblade is for the second. The classes' designated mental attributes hardly matter at all for this option.

For the second option, the Warblade will reap you noticeable gains for having a strong Intelligence stat because you'll be spending enough levels to get your full Intelligence to Reflex saves and getting it on weapon damage (a second time after your Swashbuckler levels) after 7 levels. You have enough abilities from your existing classes that you shouldn't be desperate for full Swordsage maneuver progression at least.


There is a last 'option' in staying Swashbuckler, but it really is inferior. You won't lag in damage by going into ToB if that's what you fear.

Do the first option, but also dip duskblade for 2 levels on the beguiler side: Channel Touch Spells lets you Sneak Attack and Cloaked Cast... at the same time!:smalleek:

[Godskook]

A 2-level swordsage dip nets:
-Mental Stat to AC*
-Weapon Focus in a bunch of weapons
-2d6 SA
-Dex to damage with a single feat if you are willing to use certain weapons(Unarmed Strikes, Short Shords and Daggers are among the list)
-An assortment of useful maneuvers
-Access to unarmed strike(if you want to start investing there)**

*Once you have it, Carmendine Monk allows you to switch it to Int, and yes, it works on the Swordsage's version.

**Unarmed Strike is among the most powerful weapons in the game, if you invest in it. Ask your DM if you can use the warmage ACF as a Beguiler, and pick up greater mighty whallop. Also ask your DM if superior unarmed strike can have this sentence instead of the normal special: "If you already have damage as a monk, you may choose to instead treat your effective monk level 4 higher." A necklace of natural attacks will get you weapon enchantments as well.

[NeoSeraphi]

Do the first option, but also dip duskblade for 2 levels on the beguiler side: Channel Touch Spells lets you Sneak Attack and Cloaked Cast... at the same time! :smalleek:

This is a good idea, however, the duskblade does not get the Arcane Channeling ability until 3rd level. However, you would be adding a bit of blast along with your domination abilities. Also, the full BAB from duskblade would prevent you from losing any BAB by going swordsage on the other side.

[Manateee]

Do the first option, but also dip duskblade for 2 levels on the beguiler side: Channel Touch Spells lets you Sneak Attack and Cloaked Cast... at the same time!:smalleek:
3 levels of duskblade for Arcane Channeling would put the Beguiler 2 full spell levels behind a full caster and would let the Beguiler channel all 1 of its touch attacks through a medium that makes it less likely to hit and no more effective if it works. Basically, this is not good advice.

I'd probably recommend Warblade, even though it lacks Shadow Hand. The Swordsage's recovery mechanic is bad enough that unless things get really hairy and your Beguiler spells just don't work, you're pretty much getting one try with an attack per fight - even with the generous reading of Adaptive Style.

Sneak Attack and Swashbuckler abilities are going to get declining returns as more and more monsters develop evasive defenses, forbidding melee competence or SA immunities.

[Ormur]

First thanks for the responses, I had to leave in a hurry so I'm going to add a few more details about my character's build and plans in case it helps.

The concept started out as an aristocratic scoundrel con man but he's turning more and more into a diplomat. That's partly because he hasn't quite been delivering in combat. I figured ToB might help a bit with that and the answers here seem to confirm that. I still want to maintain a bit of that sneaky class though.

As this is gestalt we're pretty feat starved. I have at least three feats I'd like to take just for the melee side already and the Beguiler needs some love too.


Neither Warblade nor Swordsage actually take much of a hit from having a low 'primary' mental attribute. Most maneuvers don't use any ability score besides the one you swing your sword arm with.

Anyway there are two routes you can go here:
Spend a couple levels in Swordsage/Warblade for quick access to a bunch of nice maneuvers (you'd get to choose third level maneuvers when dipping at 12th level), then pick up where you left off in Swashbuckler and continue to rack up Sneak Attack dice while delivering/enhancing your attacks with your snazzy new bag of ToB tricks.
Take the rest of your martial levels in a ToB class on that side of the gestalt. You won't lack for damage, really, since the maneuvers themselves have extra damage dice plus a wide variety of other effects that come with them.

If I fully commit to the second option I'll get 7th level maneuvers and I agree that the Warblade is the superior pick there. One thing though that concerned me with that is not getting enough options that help sneak attack. What kind of Warblade strikes and boosts get extra attacks and free movement, which schools should I focus on and so forth. I'm not very familiar with mid-to-high level ToB.


A 2-level swordsage dip nets:
-Mental Stat to AC*
-Weapon Focus in a bunch of weapons
-2d6 SA
-Dex to damage with a single feat if you are willing to use certain weapons(Unarmed Strikes, Short Shords and Daggers are among the list)
-An assortment of useful maneuvers
-Access to unarmed strike(if you want to start investing there)**


A two level Swordasage dip nevertheless seems pretty if I don't fully commit to ToB, shadow hand seems like a good fit for the character and I know there are maneuvers that mesh well with sneak attack. The problem is as I mentioned earlier that capitalizing on a lot of that requires feats I don't have and it's a bit late to start investing significantly in new options like unarmed strike.

[Manateee]

What kind of Warblade strikes and boosts get extra attacks and free movement, which schools should I focus on and so forth. I'm not very familiar with mid-to-high level ToB.
Tiger Claw for basically all of those.
Sudden Leap (level 1) and Pouncing Charge (level 5) allow movement and Full Attacks.
Wolf Fang Strike (level 1) allows attacks with 2 weapons as a Standard Action (not the best option, but a workable entry-level maneuver).
Dancing (5) and Raging Mongoose (8) add extra attacks for each weapon you use, so they best complement TWFers.
The Blood in the Water (1) stance adds to attack and damage with every critical hit you score i a fight. With certain TWF builds, that can get pretty scary.

[Keld Denar]

If you do dip Swordsage and spend a lot of time in Assassin's Stance (or other SH stance), you can get that random ToB feat that gives you a +1 on save DCs for illusions. That stacks with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and all other feats and abilities that increase DCs.

I forget the name of it, though, since its pretty much crap outside of gestalt, and I never play gestalt.

[hex0]

If you are worried about losing SA dice, dip Unseen Seer for hunter's eye of course. Actually why did you only use base classes for ten levels? :smallconfused:

Although, I do like the idea of Duskblade.

[Ormur]

Unseens seer is a little iffy according to the gestalt rules, it's effectively a rogue/wizard theurge. My character is also not a trapfinder so I'd have to invest 24 skillpoints in spot, hide and search just to qualify. Otherwise it'd be spiffy.

I did dip mindbender on the Beguiler side and unlike most casting classes it has actual class features. I can't recall many prestige classes that would work with a beguiler and keep the spirit of the class.

Regarding my other side prestige classes aren't as indispensable for melee as for casters. Multiclassing into other base classes like I'm planning is just as good. Daring Outlaw also tied me to rogue/swashbuckler for a while.

Duskblade doesn't appeal to me because beguiler spells aren't good candidates for arcane channeling.

[hex0]

Unseens seer is a little iffy according to the gestalt rules, it's effectively a rogue/wizard theurge. My character is also not a trapfinder so I'd have to invest 24 skillpoints in spot, hide and search just to qualify. Otherwise it'd be spiffy.


As long as you stagger your levels so you don't get +sneak attack or +spell casting on the same side, you are ok.

[Godskook]

Unseens seer is a little iffy according to the gestalt rules, it's effectively a rogue/wizard theurge. My character is also not a trapfinder so I'd have to invest 24 skillpoints in spot, hide and search just to qualify. Otherwise it'd be spiffy.

There's not 'gestalt rules', there's poorly written gestalt guidelines. I mean, really poorly written. I'd estimate that at least half of all prestige classes could qualify as 'hybrid', and aside from what's covered below, almost none of them are the problem classes you'd need to worry about. Your DM should really finalize his own gestalt rule-set.

Personally, my version keeps any "quadratic" growth strictly on one side or the other of the build. This keeps classes like swiftblade and mystic theurge from becoming godly, without mass-banning almost all the good prestige classes. And since you actually have prestige classes to choose from, you're not stuck going Archmage or Planar Shepard for a 'good' prestige class.

(I also either ban or 'supervise' the use of any fast-progression full-caster prestige class like Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord.)

[hex0]

(I also either ban or 'supervise' the use of any fast-progression full-caster prestige class like Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord.)

Though the gestalt 'rules' say a DM should make prereqs harder for PRCs, since they can get in faster.

This is probably because there are a few PRCs that are 'meh' in a regular game, but are pretty awesome in gestalt: Dragon Disciple, Demonologist, War Hulk, Survivor, etc.

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget Geomancer. Easy to get in and actually useful in gestalt.

[hex0]

Don't forget Geomancer. Easy to get in and actually useful in gestalt.

Forget that one. Heck, even Doomlord and Starmetal Addict aren't bad in gestalt with proper staggering.

[FMArthur]

Don't forget Geomancer. Easy to get in and actually useful in gestalt.

Geomancer's already decent in regular games with 3/1 (or 2/1) arcane/divine entry, progressing only arcane. As a wizard/cleric for instance, you'd gain this for sacrificing that one level of wizard progression for the cleric level:
Cleric domains and basic turning, which can provide relevant benefits to wizards long after your 1st level cleric spells lose their luster.
Cast all spells in full armor.
Have most of your wizard progression happening on a 3/4 BAB, d6 hit die and good Fort+Will save chassis, starting at a low level.
A minor smattering of selectable class features from Drift, all of which are permanent and Extraordinary. Land speed increase, skill bonuses, natural weapons, water-breathing, lots of abilities that strong animals get, a 60ft fly speed and tremorsense/blindsense. Most of it's minor by the time you get it and all of it's doable with spells, but these don't cost you spell slots, are constantly on, and don't go away with dispels, AMFs, death and disjunctions. Just nice, customizable benefits to go alongside your main class feature of spellcasting.

It's not Incantatrix, IotSV or Shadowcraft Mage, but it certainly has its place as a nice, easy semi-gish with unique features for when you want an armored mage and you think it might be inappropriate to show up with a wizard who's in a fullplate that has 5 special adjectives cutting down its ASF.

[Ormur]

My DM actually okayed the Unseen Seer so I'll probably take that on level 13. My character isn't going to beat the dedicated melee builds of the group in damage and it's only beguiler casting being advanced so he didn't mind. I need another level to get all the skill ranks and it's also an advanced learning level for Beguiler, for which I'll take freezing glare from frostburn. Also then I'll get a 7th level divination spell from Unseen Seer then, at the moment I'm thinking about taking vision (not many exciting choices there).

Since I'll get a bit of extra sneak attack damage from there I think I'll just take Warblade on the other side from 12th level onwards. I won't have to worry about staggering sneak attacks then.

I think the maneuvers I'm aiming for will be Pouncing charge and Raging Mongoose, both fifth level Tiger Claw. I'll need two Tiger Claws to qualify, I'm thinking of just taking Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike unless there are some good second and third level maneuvers you can think of. Then I'll be able to replace an existing maneuver for a either of the fifth level ones by level 15 and take the other at level 16.

That leave three other maneuvers to pick before that level, including the one I'll replace. Sapphire Nightmare Blade might be okay since it renders people flat-footed (although I can already feint as a swift action or just be invisible). Wall of blades and Iron Heart Surge are also useful despite being low level. Any suggestions for stances?

After level 16 I might need some ideas on 6th and seventh level maneuvers. By then it also matters whether I can replace low level maneuvers that served as prerequisites with impunity.

As a side note, a Geomancer build was vetoed earlier in the same game but that was more because it was being tacked on what was already a pretty crude case of gestalt power play, a wizard//druid chassis.