Mana/spell points

[Garan]

I have been looking for a good source of a mana based spellcasting system, with a few ground rules:
1. Wizards (clerics as well) must still "prepare" their spells, plus any metamagic, in the morning.
2. Regeneration of mana only happens at night
3. the costs of the different spell levels should reflect their power
4. I want a good way of doing 0-level spells (so that we don't run into the whole "infinite cure minor wounds issue"
5. I want the system to be good at scaling for intelligence
6. I want the end result to be equivalent in terms of "spells per day" to the charts in the PHB, such as at 5th level you'd get 4/3/2/1 as a wizard.

I am ok with having to scale the cost of a spell for the caster level, but it should keep with the whole "same number of spells per day" AND still do the same damage as it would under the normal Vancian system.

[Siosilvar]

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm).

[Godskook]

Why not just simply use psionics? Its basically got exactly what you're looking for in terms of mechanics.

[jindra34]

So this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) doesn't work for you?

EDIT:Bloody swordsage.

[Garan]

Yes, but see the whole "good way to do cantrips" part.
I have read that, but I feel that I am not so keen on the whole add points for higher caster level. The example of the 4th level wizard with 16 int doesn't take into account caster level, so when you spend 3 points on 2 magic missiles, you might as well spend that on a 2th level spell, which would do more damage for the same cost.

In other words, I would prefer caster level to be somewhat separate from the cost of the spells.

[Zaranthan]

In other words, I would prefer caster level to be somewhat separate from the cost of the spells.

Then drop that aspect, and have fun watching level 10 wizards spam magic missile all day. You really need the "augment" mechanic to balance a point-based casting system. Otherwise you have a wizard who can get nine spells out of a fifth level slot.

[Garan]

Then drop that aspect, and have fun watching level 10 wizards spam magic missile all day. You really need the "augment" mechanic to balance a point-based casting system. Otherwise you have a wizard who can get nine spells out of a fifth level slot.

Or you can cast a single 5th level spell that does just as much damage, (and possibly even in an area).

[Zaranthan]

Or you can cast a single 5th level spell that does just as much damage, (and possibly even in an area).

Why would you do that? Why would you spend nine points on a single spell when you can spend one for the same effect? One of the reasons wizards are so overpowered is because they can get level-appropriate firepower out of their lower level spell slots.

I'm not saying not to do it. If you're alright with that power level, go to town. It's hella fun. Just don't let anybody play a non-spellcaster in the same party.

[Garan]

Why would you do that? Why would you spend nine points on a single spell when you can spend one for the same effect? One of the reasons wizards are so overpowered is because they can get level-appropriate firepower out of their lower level spell slots.

I'm not saying not to do it. If you're alright with that power level, go to town. It's hella fun. Just don't let anybody play a non-spellcaster in the same party.

Well, on one hand I agree with the whole issues with level scaling, there is also something else to consider. The 5th level spell (cone of cold) can hit multiple targets, and also scales much faster than Magic Missile (for example). It can eventually do 20d6 damage to multiple targets. Try and say this compares to a 9th level magic missile (5d4+5).

It really needs to be looked at for different levels. At 20th level, most people would cannibalize all of their lower spells for a single 20d6.

[Zaranthan]

Let's use a different example, then. You like Cone of Cold? I like Fireball. Nine SP for 10d6 damage in a 60' cone vs Five SP for 10d6 damage in a 20' burst up to 760 feet away. Sound like a fair* resource:reward ratio?

* This is not rhetorical. If you like these numbers, GO TO TOWN. I have played in campaigns with people who actually executed infinite power point shenanigans and "critical range 2-20" rubbish. The game WORKS if the DM scales up the challenges.

[Psyren]

Yes, but see the whole "good way to do cantrips" part.

Use PF cantrips, and make them at-will. 3.5 cantrips are allowable on a case-by-case basis.

[Rubik]

Or institute something akin to psionic focus, and have players cast their cantrips when they expend it or pay 1 spell point.

Or just use psionics and houserule some 0 level powers and do it that way.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Let's use a different example, then. You like Cone of Cold? I like Fireball. Nine SP for 10d6 damage in a 60' cone vs Five SP for 10d6 damage in a 20' burst up to 760 feet away. Sound like a fair* resource:reward ratio?

* This is not rhetorical. If you like these numbers, GO TO TOWN. I have played in campaigns with people who actually executed infinite power point shenanigans and "critical range 2-20" rubbish. The game WORKS if the DM scales up the challenges.

40 ft burst.

Besides, in the regular system, it's a third level spell slot and a fifth level spell slot. Or two fifth level spell slots, but the Empowered Fireball is now 15d6 damage.

[Melayl]

I have what I believe to be a good and viable system right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140759)...[/shamelessselfpromotion]

[Garan]

I have what I believe to be a good and viable system right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140759)...[/shamelessselfpromotion]

A bit confusing, and I feel that the UA system is easier to understand. The problem with the scaling, really, is that certain spells scale faster. Your system tries to address this, but in the end a system may have to be developed based on what each individual spell does. A problem with the Vancian system is that everything falls into certain spell slots, instead of giving each spell a cost based on their effectiveness, and just give spells requirements to learn. By the way, though, I think that you handle 0 level spells very nicely, in that by the time someone gets to a high level they might as well be free. However, I think that wizards and clerics should still prepare spells, as part of their balances (among the spell levels and spells per day) was that a wizard had to choose their spells, and were stuck with them for the rest of the day, to make up for their greater versatility.

[Melayl]

Understandable. I've had ideas on how to redo the entire spell system, but it'd be a royal pain. Ernir chose to endure that pain, and - according to the comments in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002)- seems to have done rather well. I've not checked out the system yet, so I can't make any comment on it.