OOTS #839 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ur-Quan]

Awesome! New comic while I'm logged in :D

[MoonCat]

Traaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap. Definitely trap.

[ftx]

Yeah, propably a trap.

[QDI]

Like it!

Thanks Giant!

(And I agree, probably trap...)

[k_bukie]

Decoy trap.

[Raimun]

Whoa, that can't be good. :smallamused:

[Lord Ruby34]

Who says that it can't be both?

[Saph]

Nice. Good to see the Order working together again!

Though I'm quite impressed V was able to affect Girard's magic with a dispel . . .

[Xelbiuj]

W00tness!!!!

[Blisstake]

Hopefully not a decoy, I'm excited for them to get to the real thing!

[MoonCat]

So is this yesterday's or today's comic?

[MammonAzrael]

Well that's impressively large.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wow, four comments in the same minute.

Anyway, loving this amazing update schedule. I'm very impressed with the Giant's sudden rush of comics.

Elan and Belkar have a good back-and-forth here.

[Stabbey]

A maze of illusions and traps... this should be good. And the area looks mostly like the Order of the Scribble flashback.

[Jetty]

I think it's probably more likely to be a decoy. Just sayin'

[AutomatedTeller]

Now THAT's the Elan we love... trying to figure out if he's part halfling ;)

[NYCharlie212]

If Girard's epic level, what level would V have to be to dispel his illusions?

Oh and its definitely a trap.

[Dr.Epic]

No Haley. You said it wrong. It goes "It's a trap!" Take more ranks in Knowledge (memes).

[Squirrel_Token]

Thanks Giant :)

Also,

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/012/812/tarp-30198.jpg?1251490663

[mirtexxan]

Wooooooooo! Dungeon entry is near! Isn't it?

Somehow the meso-american kind of temple reminds me a classic old 1st edition adventure, "Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan..."

[Iferus]

Where are the humans Belkar smelled?

[Shadic]

The Order has always done well with traps. :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's a trap!!!

[Laws of Chaos]

I agree with Haley! It's a trap

[ThePhantom]

Well, it looks like Girard remembered to include smells in his illisions.
Nice pyramid, likely so many traps in there, if its real.

[FlawedParadigm]

I believe Haley once mentioned they'll get Roy thinking like a Rogue yet. Seems to be working.

[Dr.Epic]

Who wants to bet inside they find Alien fighting Predator?:smallwink:

[TerrickTerran]

All right, finally to the good stuff. Can't wait to see what Girard has in store for them.

[Whiffet]

Heh, I love how they're automatically suspicious of it. :smallbiggrin: As they should.

[Grimly Feendish]

Is it a ziggurat or pyramid or an Aztec temple?

[Grey Watcher]

Where are the humans Belkar smelled?

Maybe that's part of the illusion, too?

Also, I have to wonder... Did Girard (or someone in his employ) BUILD Windy Canyon?

[LordofNaught]

Well... contractual desert temple ahoy. I guess the clan Draketooth is inside.

[SpaceBadger]

My current main point of curiosity is, "What the heck are they smelling?"

[ThePhantasm]

Definitely a trap.

[Endon the White]

Trap. So definitely a trap. Major trap. It's a trap.

[Dragon Star]

Decoy-trap.

[Gift Jeraff]

Where are the humans Belkar smelled?I'm guessing the scent was supposed to lead them to a trap. I'm also going to be extra paranoid and guess that this decoy/trap was made to be dispel-able by lower-level casters to lull them into a false sense of security and/or lead them in the wrong direction.

EDIT: Durkon is true seeing us in panel seven! Aaaah!!!

[Yuki Akuma]

If Girard's epic level, what level would V have to be to dispel his illusions?

If Girard is level 21 (the minimum level required to be 'Epic'), he'd have 19 levels of Wizard, so... level 11.

[Xelbiuj]

Who wants to bet inside they find Alien fighting Predator?:smallwink:

What I was thinking. It be a great to have the them enter and the next comic be in all thermal imaging with the Predators clicking sounds in the background. Give the mid-high level heroes one last plan A, "Run away!" throwback after encountering the Aliens.

[LightsOnNo1Home]

Nice. Good to see the Order working together again!

Though I'm quite impressed V was able to affect Girard's magic with a dispel . . .

The fact that V was able to dispel it suggests it's a trap/decoy. If it was the real thing, I don't think he would stand a chance.

I did think that the order were going to fall for it though, right up till the last panel.

[Iferus]

Perhaps the scent of humans was included so that Serini could find Girard if she would want to.

[Grimly Feendish]

Or it could be a side quest or a random encounter - I think it's too soon to get to Girard.

[SgtCarnage92]

Trust the Rogue, certainly a trap. Probably also a decoy because, why only uses traps when they're getting close...that's some sort of weird bond-villain logic right there. Also, glad to see the party back to more "traditional" D&D gameplay. Nothing like a creepy meso-american dungeon out in the middle of the desert to make you feel nostalgic. :P

[t209]

Looks like the Order found it first.
OR entire draketooth were decorated like the Resistance.

[Leolo]

A Trap. Designed for someone with scent.

Maybe a trap for Lirian?

[Sanraal]

OMFG new comics are being added so fast these days, thank you very much for them!

[jidasfire]

To all who suggest that Girard's illusions should be more complicated than this, I think there are two possibilities. The first is that these aren't his illusions, but those of his clan. I would guess at least some of Girard's descendents are also illusionists. The other possibility is that he made some of his illusions simple to lure anyone who'd made it that far and knew what to look for into a false sense of security, only to draw them deeper into an endless web of trickery and possibly madness. What Belkar smells might be the corpses of those lost in said maze.

Also, this has been kind of bugging me. I know Roy and his dad don't exactly get along, but Eugene was a high-level illusionist himself. Why not recruit his help? He'd probably at least know of some obscure illusionary tricks that Girard might have used. Perhaps Roy will recruit his dad later on, but I wonder why he hasn't before now, given what he knows.

[Icedaemon]

Did we just get two new comics in a day?

Also, Roy has indeed been taking notes.

[Gusion]

So a little over 30 minutes of true seeing... good choice of spells. I wonder how many times he has it memorized.

[Lord Raziere]

Thats no trap, thats a ruse.

[Morph Bark]

Neither decoy nor trap is my bet.

[Fanta]

It may be my knowledge of English, but I really couldn't get that "five eighthling" joke. Anyone could explain, please?

[Ridureyu]

It's kind of sad to think that Xykon could probably just blast through all the illusions and steamroll his way into the gate.

[DreadArchon]

No comments about the fraction jokes?!

Well, I thought they were hilarious. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Scratch that. One person (Fanta) who just didn't get them ninja'ed me. :smallfrown:


But to answer the question: "five eighths" is the fraction 5/8, which is more than "half" but less than one.

And the rest of the stuff I posted didn't make any sense, so I deleted it. :smallyuk:

[RMS Oceanic]

It may be my knowledge of English, but I really couldn't get that "five eighthling" joke. Anyone could explain, please?

Halfling -> 1/2 -> A Half
Five Eightling -> 5/8 -> Five Eights.

[Anarion]

Also, this has been kind of bugging me. I know Roy and his dad don't exactly get along, but Eugene was a high-level illusionist himself. Why not recruit his help? He'd probably at least know of some obscure illusionary tricks that Girard might have used. Perhaps Roy will recruit his dad later on, but I wonder why he hasn't before now, given what he knows.

Roy's father is also quite proud though. He would probably assume that he knows how to counter everything, get the Order 95% of the way there and then completely blow things resulting in them falling into a dangerous situation. I just don't see Eugene Greenhilt being able to match up against one of the Order of the Scribble, despite his own skill at illusions.


Also, regarding dispel magic, my guess is that Girard's multi-classing means that his illusions aren't as high level as, say, Dorukon or Xykon. We know from Redcloak's failed attempts at dispelling Darth V that the spell does take level into account somehow though, so perhaps the successful dispel is indicative that the Order of the Stick isn't completely out of its league here.

[Ridureyu]

No comments about the fraction jokes?!

Well, I thought they were hilarious. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Scratch that. One person (Fanta) who just didn't get them ninja'ed me. :smallfrown:


But to answer the question: "five eighths" is the fraction 5/8, which is more than "half" but less than one. If half-halfling is "3/4-ling," having a parent who was half-halfling would be "5/8-ling."

New Theory: Elan's grandmother is Serini. :smalleek:



But how does this relate to the fact that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Haley is only half-human?

[silvadel]

The real bane of invisible dwellings is birds. It is almost trope-worthy to have a few blackbirds sitting on your cloaked headquarters apparently right in mid-air.

[Goosefeather]

No comments about the fraction jokes?!

Well, I thought they were hilarious. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Scratch that. One person (Fanta) who just didn't get them ninja'ed me. :smallfrown:


But to answer the question: "five eighths" is the fraction 5/8, which is more than "half" but less than one. If half-halfling is "3/4-ling," having a parent who was half-halfling would be "5/8-ling."

New Theory: Elan's grandmother is Serini. :smalleek:

Isn't a half-halfling a quarterling? :smalltongue:

[Gusion]

If Girard's epic level, what level would V have to be to dispel his illusions?

As someone pointed out, at least 11.

They are probably considered to be permanent illusions though, and even upon a successful dispel they come back into existence after 10 minutes.

True seeing is the way to go here; the best reason to dispel anything would be if an illusion monster was attacking and somebody failed their save. For instance, a Phantasmal Killer could (maybe, DM discretion) be dispelled prior to rolling the fort save after believing it exists - provided V held her action of course.

V is using it so the entire party - and us readers - can see it. That's more for the comic's sake than true RP though I think.

[Morph Bark]

But how does this relate to the fact that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Haley is only half-human?

Think of the children!

[Kareasint]

There are probably a lot of things set up to lead everyone in the wrong direction. A decoy/trap setup is likely here because it isolates the OOTS in an area of Girard's choosing. It is probably set up to notify him that someone is in the area, activating the traps. Think of it as an elaborate doorbell on the front door of a store. It lets you know someone has entered the building. In Girard's case, he activate his defenses which have a shorter duration in response.

[Hurkyl]

A Trap. Designed for someone with scent.

Maybe a trap for Lirian?

Eek! Actually, it makes me wonder if Girard didn't spend most of his effort not preparing for the world at large, but preparing against someone in the Order of the Scribble coming after the gates.

[Mutant Sheep]

I think its not a trap. Its quite obviously the place where Girard is battling, or being defeated by, Xykon and/or Linear Guild. :smallwink: Bunch of dead redhaired humans lying around being smelly dead people.

[MehMuffin]

Is it a ziggurat or pyramid or an Aztec temple?

Definitely a mayan temple.

[RaggedAngel]

This strip makes me think a couple of interesting things.

1. The scent thing pretty clearly only affects halflings, who do not have a 'scent' ability of any kind in 3.5. This means that the illusion is actually targeting halflings, and we all know that everyone liked Serini. I think Girard (or his son, or his grandson) left the scent thing in place in case Serini ever decided to come visit.

2. Speak of that, why should it be Girard casting the illusions? He may have died by now, and if that's the case it would be his son or grandson casting the illusions. It's hard to get xp while hiding in the desert; they may not be very powerful illusionists.

[IrnBruAddict]

New Theory: Elan's grandmother is Serini.

Or Elans mum is Sereni under an Epic level illusion cast by Girard?

[Goosefeather]

Or Elans mum is Sereni under an Epic level illusion cast by Girard?

Elan's mum is clearly Girard in disguise, and Tarquin is Serini. Nale is Orrin.

[RMS Oceanic]

Definitely a mayan temple.

My first thought was that since we're dealing with the Babylonian Pantheon of Gods on this Continent, it would be a Babylonian Ziggurat. A few choice queries to Google image dispelled this assumption though. It's definitely based on a Mayan Temple.

[Evil_Lamp_6]

But how does this relate to the fact that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Haley is only half-human?

Think of the children!

Wait! Wait! Wait! When the hell was this mentioned? Did I miss something about horribly important about Haley's background?

Edit: Apparently quotes don't quote quoted posts.

[tassaron]

I dig the five-eighthling, nine-tenthling joke. Stellar. :smallbiggrin:

Really nice drawing in the last panel. Can't wait to see where this heads. We're finally getting to the illusions! :D

[Vectner]

Pure awesomeness. How could you resist walking up those steps?

[Ravian]

Wait! Wait! Wait! When the hell was this mentioned? Did I miss something about horribly important about Haley's background?

Edit: Apparently quotes don't quote quoted posts.

You're fine, some people have just drawn that when Haley's speech was jumbled and she was confessing all these secrets to Elan one that got cut off was "Elan I don't know how to tell you this but I'm not exactly..." people assume that she was going to say human. I don't believe it at all.

[Grey Watcher]

Eek! Actually, it makes me wonder if Girard didn't spend most of his effort not preparing for the world at large, but preparing against someone in the Order of the Scribble coming after the gates.

Given that they seem to have taken steps to eliminate knowledge of the Gates and their function FROM the world at large, it's actually not all that implausible that the most likely threat to protect against would be each other. And given the level of mistrust and paranoia that Girard seems to have harbored for his teammates, it's a decent bet that that was foremost in his mind when he was building his defenses.

(Of course, if he was really that paranoid, he'd also be open to the possibility that the information could've been gotten by a third from one his former allies via things like torture, bribery, blackmail, seduction, spying, friendship, magical compulsion, or any of a number of other means. So he would've done well to make his defenses more general, but we don't know how many iterations of "knowing that they know that I know that they know that I know that they know..." he went through before he actually sat down to work on this little maze of his.)

[Evil_Lamp_6]

You're fine, some people have just drawn that when Haley's speech was jumbled and she was confessing all these secrets to Elan one that got cut off was "Elan I don't know how to tell you this but I'm not exactly..." people assume that she was going to say human. I don't believe it at all.

Ah. Thank you.

[IrnBruAddict]

Elan's mum is clearly Girard in disguise, and Tarquin is Serini. Nale is Orrin.

So Nale kidnapped a baby he had with a woman who would later be his mother (disguised as his father)'s lesbian wife?

Sounds like Eastenders.

[Burner28]

So Nale kidnapped a baby he had with a woman who would later be his mother (disguised as his father)'s lesbian wife?

Sounds like Eastenders.

Heh!
And as for the strip-Now things are heating up!

[MaximKat]

Isn't a half-halfling a quarterling? :smalltongue:

Not if the other half is also a halfling.

[Nightfall]

Who says that it can't be both?

Agreed. It can be both trap AND decoy. Also, it has to be so frustrating to attempt to disbelieve everything you encounter, on the assumption it may be an illusion. Huge time-waster for the adventurers. After all, how many Great Dispel Magic spells could V possibly have memorized?

[Diadem]

You're fine, some people have just drawn that when Haley's speech was jumbled and she was confessing all these secrets to Elan one that got cut off was "Elan I don't know how to tell you this but I'm not exactly..." people assume that she was going to say human. I don't believe it at all.
We have seen Haley's mother in the comic. In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) to be precise.

So Haley's mother is human.

Well I guess she could be half-elf or something like that. But definitely not halfling, or goblin, or anything else that doesn't look human.

[MaximKat]

We have seen Haley's mother in the comic. In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) to be precise.

So Haley's mom is human.

Well I guess she could be half-elf or something like that. But definitely not halfling, or goblin, or anything that doesn't look human.

What if she is a shape-shifter?

[tassaron]

The scent thing pretty clearly only affects halflings, who do not have a 'scent' ability of any kind in 3.5. This means that the illusion is actually targeting halflings, and we all know that everyone liked Serini. I think Girard (or his son, or his grandson) left the scent thing in place in case Serini ever decided to come visit.

It's been implied that halflings do have a naturally heightened sense of smell in OOTS. (See this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156681)) It also might just be Belkar. Regardless, he definitely has a stronger nose than most. It's probably just a normal smell/illusory smell, not specifically targeted to halflings.

[t209]

My first thought was that since we're dealing with the Babylonian Pantheon of Gods on this Continent, it would be a Babylonian Ziggurat. A few choice queries to Google image dispelled this assumption though. It's definitely based on a Mayan Temple.

Well Even though Rich says he scrapped the idea of Dark Sun settings parody (until kickstarter), he says that Western Continent have elements from Dark Sun. and Dark sun has Mayan element.

[Diadem]

What if she is a shape-shifter?
Possible. Or maybe that's not her real mother, and Haley only thinks that. Or she has had some spell cast on her.

But we have been given absolutely no reason at all to suspect anything like that. There's nothing in Haley's back-story to suggest that, and haley's father is a low level thief who, as far as we know, is not involved in anything important.

So such a revelation would be very deus-ex-machina, and very unlike the Giant. It's bad storytelling along the lines of "And then they all woke up".

[Ron Miel]

It's been implied that halflings do have a naturally heightened sense of smell in OOTS.


More than implied. It's been said pretty clearly.

[MaximKat]

But we have been given absolutely no reason at all to suspect anything like that.
But-but-but... :durkon: epileptic trees are attacking!

[Kish]

Wait! Wait! Wait! When the hell was this mentioned? Did I miss something about horribly important about Haley's background?
Nowhere and no. It's a tired joke.

[rewinn]

If Elan decides that he is both half-camel (established in the early strips) AND half-halfling (established by his sense of smell), but Tarquin is human, then he MUST have been adopted and can foil T's evil plan by finding his REAL father!

Also, what smells like human only so bad that even Elan can detect it now could be either corpses (very consistent with a Temple of Evil) or the everyday scent of Mon Calamari.

[Azukar]

Not if the other half is also a halfling.

Considering we think of "half"lings by building down from the height of a human, a half-halfling could well be a three-quarterling.

[The MunchKING]

Dang I come on as soon as the comic gets up and there's already three pages!!

I'm with Haley though. It's probably a trap...

[KoboldRevenge]

I like the little ramp slide the pyramid has instead of stairs!

Also what if your ten nineths half-ling? Are you more half them the 50% of halflings? y=10/9x+4

[Ravian]

Well Even though Rich says he scrapped the idea of Dark Sun settings parody (until kickstarter), he says that Western Continent have elements from Dark Sun. and Dark sun has Mayan element.

Does that mean that Xykon will use the pyramid to try and suck the life energy from the Draketooth clan with a series of obsidian orbs in order to transform into a Dragon only to be killed by a wooden spear crafted by a tribe of Xenophobic cannibalistic halflings living in a mountain jungle? :smallconfused:

Why yes I do read Troy Denning too much :smalltongue:

[megabyter5]

I like the little ramp slide the pyramid has instead of stairs!

Also what if your ten nineths half-ling? Are you more half them the 50% of halflings? y=10/9x+4

A halfling/human is a 3/4thling. You can extrapolate from there.

[Forikroder]

To all who suggest that Girard's illusions should be more complicated than this, I think there are two possibilities. The first is that these aren't his illusions, but those of his clan. I would guess at least some of Girard's descendents are also illusionists. The other possibility is that he made some of his illusions simple to lure anyone who'd made it that far and knew what to look for into a false sense of security, only to draw them deeper into an endless web of trickery and possibly madness. What Belkar smells might be the corpses of those lost in said maze.

Also, this has been kind of bugging me. I know Roy and his dad don't exactly get along, but Eugene was a high-level illusionist himself. Why not recruit his help? He'd probably at least know of some obscure illusionary tricks that Girard might have used. Perhaps Roy will recruit his dad later on, but I wonder why he hasn't before now, given what he knows.

perhaps whatever is blocking durkons divination is also preventing him from interfering

most likely he doesnt want to interfere, he couldnt care less if Xykon nabs a gate he jsut wants Xykon to get taken down if anything hed be working behind the scenes to prevent them from meeting so Roy and his group can grind out a few more levels

[Dwy]

Or it could be a side quest or a random encounter - I think it's too soon to get to Girard.

Definately this.

Also: To those asking about the smell, a pyramid ought to have an interior. And that again allows for that interior to room something that smells worse than humans usually do. Say a dozen or two human corpses?

[Burner28]

Definately this.

Also: To those asking about the smell, a pyramid ought to have an interior. And that again allows for that interior to room something that smells worse than humans usually do. Say a dozen or two human corpses?

Well that is an interesting possibility.

Edit: Actually, that can't be the case.

[Flame of Anor]

If Elan decides that he is both half-camel (established in the early strips) AND half-halfling (established by his sense of smell), but Tarquin is human, then he MUST have been adopted and can foil T's evil plan by finding his REAL father!

What? No, Vaarsuvius is half-camel.

[Gift Jeraff]

Definately this.

Also: To those asking about the smell, a pyramid ought to have an interior. And that again allows for that interior to room something that smells worse than humans usually do. Say a dozen or two human corpses?Belkar said in #838 that it doesn't smell like rotting corpses. He could be wrong, but I don't see why the Giant would include that line if it is coming from corpses. Plus, while Belkar may be an awful tracker, I trust his opinion on human corpses. :smalltongue:

[Xiander]

I have been looking forward to Girards gate ever since the crayon stories, and this have just made me even more exited :smallbiggrin:

[megabyter5]

What? No, Vaarsuvius is half-camel.

What percentage of Elan is dinosaur?

[LordRahl6]

Sort of a plot centered strip, but the "look around for something" was decent as was "Trap or Fake" bit as well.:smallwink:

[Commander672]

Well, the best way to diffuse a bomb is to blow it up. Onward!

[Flame of Anor]

Well, the best way to diffuse a bomb is to blow it up. Onward!

That may be the best way to diffuse a bomb--and your party--but I'd rather defuse it. :smallwink:

[Kaulguard]

Belkar specifically said not corpses.

[MaximKat]

Considering we think of "half"lings by building down from the height of a human, a half-halfling could well be a three-quarterling.
I'm saying that half-halfling half-halfling is still a halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html).

[Dwy]

Belkar specifically said not corpses.

Uhm. Yeah. I seem to have missed that blatantly obvious part of that strip. Shame on me.

Still, I'd say the smell comes from something within, rather than being a part of the illusion still.

[Ron Miel]

What percentage of Elan is dinosaur?

He's half T. Rex

[Zorgophlats]

So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

Wait… if Girrard didn't trust Soon with the location or details about his gate, and Shojo wasn't told either (because this wasn't mentioned to the OotS) then where did Ochul get his information? I know he was a Fighter before he went Paladin. If he was truly lying about his knowledge, then what are the odds that he lied correctly?!?

My brain just exploded…

[Mando Knight]

Actually, it's a well-known fact that halflings are so-called because they're half Ling, a tiny humanoid. :smalltongue:

Also, Roy... the answer to your final question is: Is it too much to ask for both?

[The MunchKING]

It may be my knowledge of English, but I really couldn't get that "five eighthling" joke. Anyone could explain, please?

Hobbits were called "Halflings" in LotR because they were about half the size of a human.

So instead of being a "half"ling, Elan and Belkar are using other fractions for someone who is only part-halfling.

[rbetieh]

This strip needs some legend of Zelda dungeon reveal music

[The MunchKING]

It may be my knowledge of English, but I really couldn't get that "five eighthling" joke. Anyone could explain, please?

Hobbits were called "Halflings" in LotR because they were about half the size of a human.

So instead of being a "half"ling, Elan and Belkar are using other fractions for someone who is only part-halfling.

Five-eighths of course being an eigth more than one-half, and nine-tenths being almost full human.

[SaintRidley]

So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

Wait… if Girrard didn't trust Soon with the location or details about his gate, and Shojo wasn't told either (because this wasn't mentioned to the OotS) then where did Ochul get his information? I know he was a Fighter before he went Paladin. If he was truly lying about his knowledge, then what are the odds that he lied correctly?!?

My brain just exploded…

With the very limited information of illusionist in the desert, along with the fact that his hatred of Soon is likely well known to the Sapphire Guard, it's pretty easy to imagine O-Chul making something up that turns out accurate.

[Baphomet]

What if this IS real? He puts one obvious, easily-dispelled illusion over the real thing, and puts trails of intense, complex illusions over everything else. People who know what the gate is will expect the easily-dispelled thing to be a decoy, and go elsewhere to search for the real deal. People who don't know what they're here for can find the obvious thing if they try hard enough, but they won't know what to do with it.

[Aaron]

:elan: Dun dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn!!!

If V was able to dispel it THAT easily, then its a trap. Or a decoy trap.:smalltongue: We're gonna find out soon :smallbiggrin:

[Morgan Wick]

I think this is probably either real or important, considering we've spent two strips, soon to be three, on it.


So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

New theory: The OOTS run across Team Evil banging their heads against the wall of the Gate's riddles. (Although O-Chul said "only by answering the riddles within can one reach the center", so I would have expected them to find some riddles already...)

[DreadArchon]

So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

Hahaha, brilliant observation. :smallsmile:

[Forikroder]

So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

Wait… if Girrard didn't trust Soon with the location or details about his gate, and Shojo wasn't told either (because this wasn't mentioned to the OotS) then where did Ochul get his information? I know he was a Fighter before he went Paladin. If he was truly lying about his knowledge, then what are the odds that he lied correctly?!?

My brain just exploded…

Soon didn know teh actual examples, as in he didnt know what spells were cast where, which spells do what which path is safe but im sure they all got together and went "so this is how im going to do it how about you guys?"

if only to make sure one of them isnt gonna say "well im going to build a really big bed under the gate so i can hide it under my amtress"

[Flame of Anor]

So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

Wait… if Girrard didn't trust Soon with the location or details about his gate, and Shojo wasn't told either (because this wasn't mentioned to the OotS) then where did Ochul get his information? I know he was a Fighter before he went Paladin. If he was truly lying about his knowledge, then what are the odds that he lied correctly?!?

My brain just exploded…

O-Chul was just guessing.

[Forikroder]

What if this IS real? He puts one obvious, easily-dispelled illusion over the real thing, and puts trails of intense, complex illusions over everything else. People who know what the gate is will expect the easily-dispelled thing to be a decoy, and go elsewhere to search for the real deal. People who don't know what they're here for can find the obvious thing if they try hard enough, but they won't know what to do with it.

that wont work unless he knows what his opponents are looking for, hes essentially trusting that his opponents actually KNOW that theres an epic level illusionist guarding it and then distrust anything thats easily dispelled

and tahts assuming an equally epic wizard was in the group trying to take the gate and didnt even realise the illusion was easy to be dispelled

it jsut opens up the possibility of some random group stumbling across it, exploring it and causing damage to his wards and traps that could prove fatal, or even worse they could accidently damage the gate

[fergo]

What percentage of Elan is dinosaur?

Not enough to satisfy his dreams :smallfrown:.

[geekgirl197]

I'm guessing the fact that this is a Mayan Temple is partly a set up for at least a couple of clever 2012 end of the world jokes.

[snikrept]

What is going on in the background? Those aren't mesas! They're moving around!

Definitely a trap.

[Shecky]

... huh. Rich, are you a reader of Jim Butcher's Dresden Files? 'Cause that seems an awful lot like Chichen Itza, and when you combine CI with fantasy, that automatically sets me to thinking of Changes.

And I think it's BOTH decoy and trap. :smallamused:

[blackjack217]

I agree with Admiral Ackbar on this one

[fergo]

What is going on in the background? Those aren't mesas! They're moving around!

Definitely a trap.

:smalleek:

I didn't notice that.

To be fair, the camera angle changes with each shot so some inconsistency can be excused... but I kinda hope you're right and it becomes relevant in some way.

[Omergideon]

Ah. This......this was an excellent strip. some very good moments and images. A few good events, decent humour and so on. Light on the character of course, but with so much else going on with the story this is no shocker. It was a very good strip. I will do any speculations at the end, but for now, my views.

The good:
1) The art is very good, especially for stick figures. I really like it when individual panels have a different zoom. It always adds a sense of dynamism to the strip. Moreover the slow zoom out and reveal of the Ziggurat was excellent work. It looks imposing, the varying visibility of it was a great effect, and the zoom itself was a near cinematic moment. And the group shots of the order heading into action were nice to see. No combat, but a good sense of motion.
2) The reveal of the ziggurat itself was an excellent cliffhanger moment and an example of a simple but excellent plot thread. I am very eager to see what happens tomorrow with the next strip. The next phase of the story is ready.
3) There were of course not too many jokes. This was a story based strip of course. Elan's jokes with Belkar though were one of the few times I have laughed at punny humour. Normally I cannot stand it, but this time I laughed plenty loud. It is tempting to call the final panel a punchline, and the dialogue is funny. But it is not so much a joke as.............amusing dialogue. Very in character though. I am beginning to think that Roy is very genre savvy about illusions. Blame his dad for that one.
4) And really in this strip, and the very recent sequence, the order has properly gotten serious. We have seen them as competent before, but the growth of the order from some lower-mid level bumblers into an oiled machine (not well oiled but hey, you get what you pay for) is great. The action pose group shots, the planning, the general competence....not character development shown for any one person but it is seen for the order as a whole. I dunno why but I get a kick out of this.

The Bad:
Nope. Nothing to see here. no real flaws or faults.

So for a strip with good moments, no faults and a nice cinematic reveal I have to award ***1/2. A little more action, character or another funny joke and we would be getting a higher grade. As is this is a very fun and entertaining strip.

As for my own speculations.....I like what Roy said. Now the only persons who would even be in the area are people who know about the Gate, and have a rough idea about who they are looking for. As such I reckon Girard is adding some simpler deceptions and relying on his own powers to deal with anyone who makes it through. Now I do expect some fancier illusions to pop up soon. But with relatively simple standing illusions to throw them off. I mean if we think about it...to find this ziggurat you need to know about the gates (not common), know he lied to Soon, (a tiny number) know roughly where his is after that (fewer people), know what he is to even look for illusions (fewer still) AND think you might be able to take an Epic level guy. Finding this out was not easy and took over 100 strips in comic. They began looking in strip 673. This is number 839! It took some time for a high level and very powerful team, who needed a lot of outside help as well.

Seems like Girard's protections worked out fairly well as is.

[thepsyker]

So who wants to bet that that last panel is going to be a two page spread in the next book alla Roy jumping on the zombie dragon.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Remember, one member of the Order of the Scribble is a halfling. Maybe Draketooth made the scent illusion on purpose so that she could find him.

[Dr._Demento]

I really loved the "Into the breach" panel. I actually paused at it for a good while before I got to what was behind it. The fading away through the wall... perfect.

[MoonCat]

Augh. Panel #6 rather scares me. Durkon looking straight at you with those eyes that can see through all illusions...

[Grimly Feendish]

He's half T. Rex

Mark Bolam back from the dead!

[Grimly Feendish]

Definitely a mayan temple.

In that case it will be infested with rocker vampires, (like in From Dusk till Dawn).

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[ti'esar]

I wonder if the fact that V was able to dispel the illusion with seemingly little difficulty means that it wasn't created by Girard. Perhaps he really is dead.

On the other hand, the OOTS are getting fairly high-level themselves.

[Pronounceable]

As always, Belkar gets the best lines.

[ti'esar]

I'm guessing the fact that this is a Mayan Temple is partly a set up for at least a couple of clever 2012 end of the world jokes.

I sincerely pray not.

[martianmister]

New comic is up.

Is this Saturday's or Sunday's strip? :smallconfused:

[Leolo]

Eek! Actually, it makes me wonder if Girard didn't spend most of his effort not preparing for the world at large, but preparing against someone in the Order of the Scribble coming after the gates.

It is no bad idea if you think about it. Epic level adventurers are a big danger for the gate. More so if they do already know about the gates. And this is no task for days or months...those gates have to be protected until the creation cease to exist.

In fact his trust in one of his team members could be Girrards greatest fault so far, Serrini even wrote everything down. But of course we will see this turn arround and his paranoia will be something that causes the destruction of his gate at the end.

Or at least i hope so.

[SwordsmithITP]

It isn't only halflings who feel human's are particularly aromatic, even Goblins (or is this a hobgoblin?) agree:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

[realroadcrossin]

I like this strip especially since it seems like it's the beginning of the first real dungeon crawl for the gang since, well, the beginning of the comic. I wonder how competent they've become, and I wonder how much of that current competence is a mere illusion.

;)

[Murray]

Aah, the PC in me is saying they need to approach this from a different direction - namely digging a hole and breaking through to a subterranean chamber.


We have seen Haley's mother in the comic. In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) to be precise.

So Haley's mother is human.

Well I guess she could be half-elf or something like that. But definitely not halfling, or goblin, or anything else that doesn't look human.

Oh, you mean her adoptive mother? Haley's clearly Right-Eye's Daughter polymorphed to appear human, probably cast by Girard, of course. And Haley is almost certainly part Divine, and part Dragon. And probably part Halfling and part Giant as well (they'd even out). :smallwink:


So far, everything Ochul said about this gate is turning out to be true. I can't wait for the riddles to start.

Wait… if Girrard didn't trust Soon with the location or details about his gate, and Shojo wasn't told either (because this wasn't mentioned to the OotS) then where did Ochul get his information? I know he was a Fighter before he went Paladin. If he was truly lying about his knowledge, then what are the odds that he lied correctly?!?

My brain just exploded…

Well then,...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html

What if you're right? What if O-Chul is really Girard? (:smallwink:)

[Riverdance]

That must be a strong smell to make it out of a pyramid thing, across an open area, and down a canyon.

[ti'esar]

What if you're right? What if O-Chul is really Girard? (:smallwink:)

Blasphemy. A man with such ignoble facial hair could never become O-Chul, illusionist or not.

I have to say that despite my attitudes towards them in actual D&D, I really hope the Order might be in for a genuine dungeon crawl right now.

[Murray]

Blasphemy. A man with such ignoble facial hair could never become O-Chul, illusionist or not.

Exceptionally well argued! :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

It isn't only halflings who feel human's are particularly aromatic, even Goblins (or is this a hobgoblin?) agree:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

its possible he was saying more as an insult thenstatement of fact

[StClair]

In the immortal word of Mal Reynolds, "TRAAAAAP."

[Kish]

Is this Saturday's or Sunday's strip? :smallconfused:
I dare make his answer, "Yes."

[Ron Miel]

its possible he was saying more as an insult thenstatement of fact

possibly, but see panel 3 here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.htm

[Tobimaro]

I'll vote for trap. Especially those being covered with illusion-type spells. And they can hide a lot of traps.

[RagingKrikkit]

Side note: strip 225 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html) makes what looks like a reference to Belkar's nose...

[t209]

possibly, but see panel 3 here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.htm

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html
I think this is what you meant!

[TheBossBoy]

This strip is just like so many games.

(insert DUUUUHDAAAAHDOOOOHDAAAAHDAAAAAAAAH! in second-to-last panel)

[Aurabolt]

I'm a tad confused about this. This looks like a wall simply made through Silent Image; that being said, the spell is likely a small spell DC, and since they knew Girard was a Illusionist, its not outside the realm of possibility that they were already expecting to disbelieve the illusion and it should be dispelled.

[rewinn]

He's half T. Rex

And yet ... his bardic abilities notwithstanding ... we've never seen him Bang A Gong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVEhDrJzM8E).

[WindStruck]

The best kind of traps are decoys. :smallwink:

Decoys are meant to attract... thus that means it's easier to rack up the killcount of your trap, which would help keep people away from your real important assets. Then even if the trap is defeated, there's no immediate danger to the things you wanted to protect.

[brionl]

Agreed. It can be both trap AND decoy. Also, it has to be so frustrating to attempt to disbelieve everything you encounter, on the assumption it may be an illusion. Huge time-waster for the adventurers. After all, how many Great Dispel Magic spells could V possibly have memorized?

I think Roy was being unreasonably optimistic with his OR there.

[Flame of Anor]

And yet ... his bardic abilities notwithstanding ... we've never seen him Bang A Gong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVEhDrJzM8E).

I don't suppose Samantha or Haley counts as a gong...

[Chaotic Queen]

I'm just wondering how they're so sure Girard's still alive. The Order of the Scribble created the gates-

:mitd: --What gate?

- about fifty years ago, right? Wouldn't Girard have died of age like Soon-

:xykon: I'd prefer to know right now, thanks.
:redcloak: No, I mean that's his name.
:xykon: What's his name?
:redcloak: Soon!
:xykon: Look, if you don't want to tell me his name yet, fine, but we should really find a way to beat him!
:redcloak: *sigh*

- did? In any case, I'm sure our heroes are in for a world of pain-

:xykon: Goddamn it, I forgot how much pain tends to hurt!

- when they enter that temple.

[Ekul]

It makes sense that a halfling would be able to find it.

Serini's a halfling, isn't she?

So I think it's legit.

[Alex Warlorn]

Humans do NOT stink as bad as troglodytes!


Troglodytes smell so bad that DRAGONS think they stink! And dragons have a smell all their own of blood, gold, rust, etc.

Got that from a dragons source book (I forget which one). Yes I'm a geek and a detail freak who wants to impose the rules of another story world on this one.

[Flame of Anor]

Humans do NOT stink as bad as troglodytes!


Troglodytes smell so bad that DRAGONS think they stink! And dragons have a smell all their own of blood, gold, rust, etc.

Got that from a dragons source book (I forget which one). Yes I'm a geek and a detail freak who wants to impose the rules of another story world on this one.

Gee, how out of character for Belkar to shoot off random insults and not be kind and jolly. I'm shocked.

[kierthos]

Well, there's the possible chance that Girard is still alive, if we operate on the tenuous assumption that someone with the surname Draketooth might have some draconic blood. (Flowing through his veins, rather then as a spell component.)

Of course, if that were black dragon blood, well.... the Draketooth's might have been removed from play by a certain androgynous wizard's Familicide spell.

All vile speculation, of course.

[dsavereide]

If it's a trap, it's also a decoy. If it's a decoy, it might as well include a trap. So the correct answer to Roy's question is YES!.

Funny that Belkar got to track by taste and by smell. Really using his talents.

[ti'esar]

Of course, if that were black dragon blood, well.... the Draketooth's might have been removed from play by a certain androgynous wizard's Familicide spell.

I don't believe this for a moment, but credit is due where credit is deserved: you have come up with a wacky theory that I have never seen suggested before.

[Flame of Anor]

Of course, if that were black dragon blood, well.... the Draketooth's might have been removed from play by a certain androgynous wizard's Familicide spell.

All vile speculation, of course.

Cool theory bro. :smallwink:

[Ron Miel]

Wouldn't Girard have died of age like Soon-


Possibly, yes. But don't forget that Dorukun was still alive just over a year ago. He died of Xykon, not old age. It is thus possible that Girard has lived equally long.

He'd be very old now, if still alive, but within the bounds of plausibility. About 95 or so.

[St Fan]

What is going on in the background? Those aren't mesas! They're moving around!

Definitely a trap.

The background having a tendency to move around is a staple of Rich's art style. Nothing new about that.


Possibly, yes. But don't forget that Dorukun was still alive just over a year ago. He died of Xykon, not old age. It is thus possible that Girard has lived equally long.

He'd be very old now, if still alive, but within the bounds of plausibility. About 95 or so.

Epic-level wizards have no need for plausibility. Magic provides all they want in matters of longevity.

[Zubzub]

Am I the only one who thinks Kobold is still with the party so they can use him as cannon fodder against the traps until he dies? I particularly think Roy's "until he dies for a cause that isnt his own" hints at that.

[oppyu]

Am I the only one who thinks Kobold is still with the party so they can use him as cannon fodder against the traps until he dies? I particularly think Roy's "until he dies for a cause that isnt his own" hints at that.

If so, I'm sure at least Elan would oppose that. Belkar's evil, V's neutral, Haley's good-ish with a shady past, Roy's pragmatic and Durkon is very lawful (greater good), but I don't see Elan being ok with that.

[Cynric]

Oooh, splash page. It's been a while.

[Karoug]

Pperhaps, it's neither a trap nor decoy. Illusionists' M.O. is bluffing and misleading, and by giving them exactly what they are looking for -assuming that the party would make the assumption that this isn't what they want- Girard could as well deter them from going to the right place. As Belkar once put it: 'they don't trust him enough to believe that he lied to them'

[fergo]

Pperhaps, it's neither a trap nor decoy. Illusionists' M.O. is bluffing and misleading, and by giving them exactly what they are looking for -assuming that the party would make the assumption that this isn't what they want- Girard could as well deter them from going to the right place. As Belkar once put it: 'they don't trust him enough to believe that he lied to them'

I doubt it's some sort of reverse psychology.

Firstly, would Girard really risk everything on the assumption that those searching for his gate are 1) smart enough to realise it's a decoy; 2) too busy to search it anyways, just in case; and 3) doesn't have wave after wave of minions to throw away just to check if there is actually something important behind all the traps.

I think a more relevant OotS quote is Haley's thoughts on the cup game during the battle for Azure City.

And besides, it'd be a bit anti-climatic after the Order being sensible enough to recognise a likely trap to be proven wrong :smallwink:.

[Red XIV]

Well, there's the possible chance that Girard is still alive, if we operate on the tenuous assumption that someone with the surname Draketooth might have some draconic blood. (Flowing through his veins, rather then as a spell component.)
Like the others said, it's entirely plausible for Girard to still be alive, albeit very up there in his years, even if he's 100% human. Soon died of old age, but he was the oldest human member of the Order of the Scribble in the first place. Dorukan would still be alive if he hadn't fought Xykon (and, quite possibly, if he hadn't fought Xykon so stupidly, but that's another discussion entirely).

BTW, do we actually know that Girard is a wizard? We know he specializes in illusions, but so does Nale, who's sorcerer. Given that draconic blood is supposed to be the source of a sorcerer's ability, that would fit with the theory that the "Draketooth" name refers to a dragon ancestor.

[VinRaven]

It would still be cool if the back of the temple had this type of look:

http://www.horrorphile.net/userimages/user1857_1179298099.jpg

[zimmerwald1915]

BTW, do we actually know that Girard is a wizard? We know he specializes in illusions, but so does Nale, who's sorcerer. Given that draconic blood is supposed to be the source of a sorcerer's ability, that would fit with the theory that the "Draketooth" name refers to a dragon ancestor.
A minor nitpick: Nale specializes in Enchantment spells. The only Illusion we've seen him cast is Invisibility. Of the two Tarquin brothers, it is Elan that knows and casts the greatest number of Illusions. Most of the spells he's cast over the course of the comic - when he isn't singing, running away, angsting, or doing something goofy instead - are Illusions, but he sings, runs away, angsts, or goofs off often enough that the number of spells he's cast is vanishingly small.

And even with all that, it is Eugene, the wizard who specialized in Illusion, and not Elan, the bard that knows and casts predominantly Illusion spells, that is termed an Illusionist. This dichotomy is repeated again when we compare Vaarsuvius and Xykon. Both rely heavily on Evocations, but it is V who is termed an Evoker and Xykon who is termed a Sorcerer. We have word of God that Haerta and Ganonron were wizards; Haerta was introduced as a Necromancer, Ganonron a Conjurer, but Jephton was simply a Sorcerer. It would seem that when a character is termed a specialist in a school of magic, it is safest to assume that that character is a specialist wizard until that is shown not to be the case.

The logical conclusion to draw is that Girard is (or was if he's dead now) a Ranger 2/Wizard X multiclass, where X is a natural number greater than or equal to 19.

As for draconic blood, not all those with draconic blood come into sorcerous power. Enor certainly hasn't got any. Neither does the Empress of Blood (yet; time may tell).

[Quild]

Side note: strip 225 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html) makes what looks like a reference to Belkar's nose...

Maybe he just had Psycho's shower scene in mind :smalltongue:.

[Hironomus]

I like panel 5. Especially The way V runs.

[Toofey]

Am I the only one who thinks the temple looks like the temple of elemental evil?

[Quild]

Am I the only one who thinks the temple looks like the temple of elemental evil?

It looks like Chichen Itza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza) but I guess it's a very common temple's look.

[Spacewolf]

Maybe he just had Psycho's shower scene in mind :smalltongue:.

i always figured that he was trying to push her towards falling by giveing into gluttony and corruption as she put it

[the_tick_rules]

Oh by the way is it my imagination or are the comics coming out pretty quickly recently?

[Forikroder]

The background having a tendency to move around is a staple of Rich's art style. Nothing new about that.



Epic-level wizards have no need for plausibility. Magic provides all they want in matters of longevity.

thats a good point, i dont think Girard would be too against even becoming a Lich if it means guranteeing the security of his gate

i wonder if it would be possible to even make the crystal guarding the rift into his phylactery...

[Flame of Anor]

Oh by the way is it my imagination or are the comics coming out pretty quickly recently?

It's the Kickstarter.

[ti'esar]

The logical conclusion to draw is that Girard is (or was if he's dead now) a Ranger 2/Wizard X multiclass, where X is a natural number greater than or equal to 19.

Girard has ranger levels? Where was this established?

[Forikroder]

Girard has ranger levels? Where was this established?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html

although he doesnt neccesarily say that HE had the ranger levels jsut taht the one with ranger levels got all the mapmaking duties

[kierthos]

I don't believe this for a moment, but credit is due where credit is deserved: you have come up with a wacky theory that I have never seen suggested before.Damn, I thought someone would have gotten to that one long before me. I'm only a rare poster on these forums.

Still, it would be interesting if it happened, if for no other reason than to twist the knife a little further in V over what he did. Heck, I don't think anyone in the Order even knows about the reduction in black dragons yet. (Although I would not be surprised if Tarquin knew... what with 'working' for a Red Dragon. You just hear things, you know?)

[Boogastreehouse]

I'm glad they are savvy enough to know it's a trap. I like it when they're foolish, but that was clearly too easy to be believed.

Also, I am so spoiled by this pledge drive pace! Regularly-paced updates are going to be maddening after this!

Signed,

Backer# 12,851

(Money's pretty tight, so I could only make a fairly small pledge, but I'm participating!)

[The MunchKING]

I don't believe this for a moment, but credit is due where credit is deserved: you have come up with a wacky theory that I have never seen suggested before.

Really?? I remember it a couple times when Draketooth was mentioned.

[zimmerwald1915]

Really?? I remember it a couple times when Draketooth was mentioned.
It has been mentioned several times, and usually considered about on par with the theory of Haley being half-celestial. But we shall see. There are certainly worse ways, narratively speaking, that the party could learn of V's sin.

[The MunchKING]

Well yeah, it wasn't a serious thing, but it was a big speculation...

[Harbajar]

Hey. Nice Templmyrid.

Think many traps not just one - cos where's the fun in just 1?

And again Belkar proves to be useful...

[ti'esar]

Really?? I remember it a couple times when Draketooth was mentioned.

The idea of Girard's draconic ancestry has been around probably since we first heard his name, but I don't recall ever seeing the theory that this resulted in him getting killed off by Familicide before.

Actually, I think it's rather a more respectable theory then Haley being half-celestial, as these things go.

[Flame of Anor]

Girard has ranger levels? Where was this established?

Girard Draketooth, illusionist and tracker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[Kish]

So I think it's legit.
Considering Girard's demonstrated-to-date paranoia and defining personality trait of believing in the power of deception above all else, one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that he's not going to turn out to be more straightforward and trusting than any of the Order thinks he is at any given juncture...even Haley.

The idea of Girard's draconic ancestry has been around probably since we first heard his name, but I don't recall ever seeing the theory that this resulted in him getting killed off by Familicide before.

Actually, I think it's rather a more respectable theory then Haley being half-celestial, as these things go.
Such faint praise to damn it with.

[Chance Gardener]

What percentage of Elan is dinosaur?
Just his heart.