Vaarsuvius' Gender

[MysticMind]

I can't figure out if he/she is a girl or a boy :smalltongue: help me !

[Kish]

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10

[NerfTW]

That's the joke.

There is no definite answer. For every character that calls him a he, someone calls her a she. And sometimes the same character does both.

And don't get started on annoying pixel nitpicking about eye level and all that. V is androgynous as far as the reader is concerned, and that's probably all we'll ever hear on the subject.

[PallElendro]

We'll just have to wait until...

End of story revelation
Vaarsuvius tells us
Rich tell us (not gonna happen)
We get extremely good detail of theory
The gender debate dies

[Gift Jeraff]

The author intended V intended to have an unambiguous gender, however we'll never know what it's supposed to be. People started debating whether V's gender way back in the single-digits, so the Giant decided to play along and keep it ambiguous.

The outdated FAQ says he'll never reveal the truth and a recent interview has him imply V's gender is not at all important. So, V is whatever gender you want him/her to be.

Also, something something difference between sex/gender/gender identity/gender role/sexuality/sexual orientation blah blah blah, eye placement, square body, etc.

That's V's gender in a nutshell.

[fergo]

One of those little questions that will never be answered :smallwink:. If it did, then it's one possibility for jokes gone (although it's a while since the confusion was even mentioned in-comic, as I recall).

[Chess Tyrant]

Just so you know everything there is to know about the debate, women in OOTS are drawn with their eyes lower on their heads than men - V's eyes are somewhere in between the normal male and female levels. Also, if you've read up to #629, V's mate, Inkyrius, appears to be male. (Eyes drawn at male level., and, as mentioned below, square hips.)

Beyond that, it's pretty much hopeless. You're free to idly speculate about whether V is male, female, gay, bi, genderless, or whatnot, but it does no more good than to speculate about what happens to people after they die - there's simply no way for us to know.

[Vemynal]

I used to think V was a woman prior to the ponytail but since the ponytail I've started thinking of hir as more of a man.

So no idea lol

[MoonCat]

Just so you know everything there is to know about the debate, women in OOTS are drawn with their eyes lower on their heads than men - V's eyes are somewhere in between the normal male and female levels. Also, if you've read up to #629, V's mate, Inkyrius, appears to be male. (Eyes drawn at male level.)

You don't have to spoiler stuff in the main comic. Also, Kyrie has square hips, unlike all women not in armor.

[Kish]

V's mate, Inkyrius, appears to be male. (Eyes drawn at male level.)

This is untrue.

[Dark Elf Bard]

The could be gay, in regards to the marraige and Kyrie's gender.

[Dark Elf Bard]

They could be gay, in regards to the marraige and Kyrie's gender. Kyries gender really doesn't seem to have an impact on V's.


On a personal level, I think V is female.

[Chess Tyrant]

You don't have to spoiler stuff in the main comic. Also, Kyrie has square hips, unlike all women not in armor.

I know I don't have to spoiler that, but I thought I would in case the OP hadn't read the entire comic. (Reasonably low probability that a person who has read the entire comic has never visited the forums or encountered this debate before.)

@Kish: really? I heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else, so it might be wrong, but I'm not taking the time to check it myself.

[Redgoblin]

I always assumed V was female. I really think that the whole party treats her like a she-elf in this strip here,
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

and Miko definitely treats her like a she-elf here.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html

P.S. sorry, I don't know how to hyper text those neatly.

[Kish]

@Kish: really? I heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else, so it might be wrong, but I'm not taking the time to check it myself.
Inkyrius' eyes, like Vaarsuvius' eyes, are between the male and female level.

Some people assert that Inkyrius is "obviously male"...again just like they do with Vaarsuvius.


P.S. sorry, I don't know how to hyper text those neatly.
Like this:
here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html).

[Gift Jeraff]

I always assumed V was female. I really think that the whole party treats her like a she-elf in this strip here,
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

and Miko definitely treats her like a she-elf here.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html

P.S. sorry, I don't know how to hyper text those neatly.Roy has called V "V-Man" and a him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) before. I think Elan has also used a male pronoun. And like the FAQ says, that simply means those characters perceive V as a male/female. Plus it seems quite apparent that the rest of the party (minus Haley and Blackwing) are just as confused about V's gender as we are.

[ti'esar]

Oh gods, this again?

I refer in my posts to Vaarsuvius as female because it's too much effort to avoid using gender pronouns and, when you come right down to it, her basic character arc - magic-user tempted to the Dark Side by hir obsession with arcane power - is far more commonly male, which makes it more interesting (to me) if V is not.

However, this is only for writing convenience. I personally hope we never find out V's gender, as that wouldn't really bring anything to the story except various real-life gender stereotypes. Although I think V's sex may be a more accurate term - I have a theory that Stickverse elves have no gender identity to begin with (Lirian being an exception because of her relationship with a non-elf).

[Bastian]

Oh gods, this again?


Silently commits seppuku. Please cut my head at the moment of agony.

[t209]

This is untrue.

Well, he got a square bottom.
All male characters have square bottom.
V? Well, as long as he wear trousers, we'll see.

[FujinAkari]

Well, he got a square bottom.

This is not what Kish was referring to as being untrue. The eye claim, though oft advocated, has yet to be supported.


All male characters have square bottom.

This, however, is untrue :P

[MoonCat]

This, however, is untrue :P

Really? Which male character has round hips?

[Hajutze]

I'd go with a female

Order of the scribble - 1 halfling, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, 3 humans
Order of the stick - 1 halfling, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, 3 humans

Order of the scribble - 1 arcane (Illusionist), 1 rogue, 1 divine (druid), 2 melees (paladin and barbarian), 1 wizard
Order of the stick - 1 arcane (bard ... I think it counts), 1 rogue, 1 divine (cleric), 2 melees (fighter and ranger ... with some barbarian levels :D), 1 wizard

Order of the scribble - 2 females, 4 males
Order of the stick - 1 unknown, 1 female, 4 males

The Order of the stick are "offshots" to the order of the scribble (or the other way around, not so sure). Since there are already 4 males, there is only a female "slot" left for V.

[ti'esar]

Not that I really want to get involved in this, but I feel compelled to add to the above that both the Mark I Linear Guild and Tarquin's team are also four-male, two-female groups.

[psijac]

I think of V as a man. In my head I read his lines in a male's voice. His actions, motivations and arrogance, say male. Most women don't generally pursue power just for powers sake.*



*Every time I've tried to generalize women. A women has told me I was completely wrong i.e. "I think most women like getting red roses." "No we don't you pig"

[FujinAkari]

Really? Which male character has round hips?

The Demon Roaches :P

Also, potentially the Elf Second-in-Command (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)

Possibly a girl, but no obvious breasts, so could just as easily be a boy who we assume is a girl because we assume that elves follow the same rules as humans when it comes to body sculpting.

[MoonCat]

The Demon Roaches :P

Also, potentially the Elf Second-in-Command (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)

Possibly a girl, but no obvious breasts, so could just as easily be a boy who we assume is a girl because we assume that elves follow the same rules as humans when it comes to body sculpting.

Yes, but we don't know their gender. So we do not actually have any solid evidence that there had been a man with rounded hips in this comic.

[Kish]

Yes, but we don't know their gender. So we do not actually have any solid evidence that there had been a man with rounded hips in this comic.
The claim was that "All male characters have square bottom." Not "All characters with non-square bottoms are not-established-male."

[oppyu]

Whenever Rich creates a 6-member adventuring party in this comic, he seems to follow a standard gender pattern

Order of the Scribble
2 females, 4 males
Original Linear Guild
2 females, 4 males
Tarquin's Party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)
2 females, 4 males

So I'll go with female.

[FujinAkari]

Whenever Rich creates a 6-member adventuring party in this comic, he seems to follow a standard gender pattern

Order of the Scribble
2 females, 4 males
Original Linear Guild
2 females, 4 males
Tarquin's Party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)
2 females, 4 males

So I'll go with female.

Except that with the original order, Rich was creating a 5-man adventuring party. Vaarsuvius didn't exist during the planning stage.

[oppyu]

Except that with the original order, Rich was creating a 5-man adventuring party. Vaarsuvius didn't exist during the planning stage.
Doesn't necessarily moot the point; he decides that he needs a wizard and that it's now a 6 man team, so he uses the extra member to avert the smurfette principle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple). Of course, tvtropes has a trope for just about everything (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwoGirlsToATeam).

[FujinAkari]

Doesn't necessarily moot the point; he decides that he needs a wizard and that it's now a 6 man team, so he uses the extra member to avert the smurfette principle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple). Of course, tvtropes has a trope for just about everything (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwoGirlsToATeam).

He had a wizard, the wizard's name was Roy :P

Secondly, we can notice that all of your examples were created AFTER he was intentionally messing with people, so it really doesn't speak to any default he actually has.

[ti'esar]

Doesn't necessarily moot the point; he decides that he needs a wizard and that it's now a 6 man team, so he uses the extra member to avert the smurfette principle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple). Of course, tvtropes has a trope for just about everything (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwoGirlsToATeam).

Not to mention that all the other teams cited were undoubtedly thought up long after he created Vaarsuvius and the Order had become a six-person model.

[psijac]

Whenever Rich creates a 6-member adventuring party in this comic, he seems to follow a standard gender pattern

Order of the Scribble
2 females, 4 males
Original Linear Guild
2 females, 4 males
Tarquin's Party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)
2 females, 4 males

So I'll go with female.

Is Malak a male or female? What sex is Kilkil for that mater?

edit: NVM. Malak is definately a Man-Lizard

[oppyu]

Not to mention that all the other teams cited were undoubtedly thought up long after he created Vaarsuvius and the Order had become a six-person model.


He had a wizard, the wizard's name was Roy :P

Secondly, we can notice that all of your examples were created AFTER he was intentionally messing with people, so it really doesn't speak to any default he actually has.


Is Malak a male or female? What sex is Kilkil for that mater?

Yeah, well... I still think it's a woman. Now I just don't have an argument.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not to mention that all the other teams cited were undoubtedly thought up long after he created Vaarsuvius and the Order had become a six-person model.Plus the Linear Guild 2.0 and the Linear Guild 4.0 are both 5:1, despite only sharing 2 people. So yeah, it's not that great of an argument.

[Soylent Dave]

I've always quite liked the "humans can't really tell what gender an elf is" concept Rich has been playing with in the strip.

That applies to all (or most) of the elves in the strip - and it also applies to the humans reading it.

It's a nice way of making Elves more than just 'humans with pointy ears', and it's a problem humans do tend to have with other species in the real world - albeit ones who don't look very human.

[FujinAkari]

Yeah, well... I still think it's a woman. Now I just don't have an argument.

Don't feel bad, all anyone has is gut, any and all arguments are inherently flawed anymore :)

I like to think I had the best one until Rich himself refuted it ^^

[FujinAkari]

Yeah, well... I still think it's a woman. Now I just don't have an argument.

Don't feel bad, all anyone has is gut, any and all arguments are inherently flawed anymore :)

I like to think I had the best one until Rich himself refuted it ^^

[ti'esar]

Yeah, well... I still think it's a woman. Now I just don't have an argument.

Now that I think it about it, one might take my original comment as going the other way: Rich created the other six-person teams after creating V, and patterned those teams on the Order - since all of them have a 4:2 male-to-female ratio, the Order must have the same.

However, it's not like this is proof or even real evidence. Again, I think Vaarsuvius is better off not having a known gender or sex. I use female pronouns because if a choice was absolutely required, I'd prefer a female V, but really, we and OOTS are better off with it being left up in the air.

[squidbreath]

V's obviously genderqueer, & it ain't the wizard's fault that our cultures have such seperate distinctions between gender roles when it don't matter at all for a certain species of elves :P

I say let it stay that way, mystery makes it more fun.

[Grogmir]

I Think that V was originally Male.

Why? Because Rich is Male, he didn't intend to make V ambigous, and IMH male egosticial position, I believe Rich would have made V more obviously female if he intented to make V a female.

Once the forum chatter started on Vs sex, Rich probably did a double take and went. Huh, yeah, its not that clear. I guess I'll just make Him Neither for the LuLz.

Now V is neither, and this has become an important part of Vs character.

Just my 2 cents on this ongoing subject....

[oppyu]

1) If tvtropes has taught me anything, it's that in a six-member party where four of the characters have melee capabilities and the other two members are the archer and the squishy wizard, those two will be women.

2) If Rich really did have a 4/1 set-up before creating V, it's likely he saw that and thought 'that's a large gender disparity. I realise said gender disparity is commonplace in all fiction not specifically created for women, but I should do something about that'. He is a creative, liberally-minded person after all... probably... according to stereotypes associated with creative folk.

3) When V was a lizard, Belkar failed to notice any distinguishing gender markers. That could be due to a lack of external genitalia... or a lack of understanding about lizard physiology.

4) Complete lack of a male ego.

Yes, I've got nothing. Carry on.

[willpell]

4) Complete lack of a male ego.

You must be thinking of a different Vaarsuvius. I posted a longer rant earlier but it got eaten (and probably for the best), so in the most succinct terms - V is content to rant endlessly solely for the sake of hearing himself talk, caring not in the least whether or not anyone is listening, and I can't believe any female character would ever do that, given that one of the VERY few aspects of gender which I regard as truly definitional is that women believe in bonding through communication, and also in having a certain core of privacy. The difference between talking to herself and talking to someone else is razor-sharp for every woman I have ever dealt with, and that's a reasonably large sample size from numerous walks of life. V's capacity to carry on in the presence of others, without actually engaging with them, marks him as inevitably male in my estimation.

[oppyu]

You must be thinking of a different Vaarsuvius. I posted a longer rant earlier but it got eaten (and probably for the best), so in the most succinct terms - V is content to rant endlessly solely for the sake of hearing himself talk, caring not in the least whether or not anyone is listening, and I can't believe any female character would ever do that, given that one of the VERY few aspects of gender which I regard as truly definitional is that women believe in bonding through communication, and also in having a certain core of privacy. The difference between talking to herself and talking to someone else is razor-sharp for every woman I have ever dealt with, and that's a reasonably large sample size from numerous walks of life. V's capacity to carry on in the presence of others, without actually engaging with them, marks him as inevitably male in my estimation.
As much as I'd like to delve into the numerous men who must have done horrible things to you, I meant that if V is a man, he feels no need to assert his masculinity which is a common trait in men. Probably just a cultural difference though.

[PebbleInTheSky]

I'm of the opinion that V's biological sex is female, and hir gender is either Apathetic, Oblivious, or simply Elf. Or perhaps the difference in elves is too subtle for non-elves to notice. If so...

:vaarsuvius:"You humans are all racist!"

[willpell]

As much as I'd like to delve into the numerous men who must have done horrible things to you

Just my father mostly...and myself, if that counts....


I meant that if V is a man, he feels no need to assert his masculinity which is a common trait in men. Probably just a cultural difference though.

Such assertations are not definitionally inevitable in manhood; they are a function of the context and expectations society places on being a man. If womanliness were considered an equally desireable trait in all situations (which IMO is impossible and undesireable, but we're speculating here that it's achieved somehow), then men wouldn't need to prove they were "all man" in order to retain their desired social station or the affection of their mates or anything like that. Elf society seems to place no particular premium on either masculinity or femininity, which is totally appropriate IMO, therefore it stands to reason that elves make no such displays (further contributing to why V pays no attention to genders, his own or those of anyone else around him; such indifference would be typical among any elf not looking for a mate, and presumably those who are start paying attention, perhaps to indicators that are obvious only to elf-specific senses...insert joke about every she-elf having a "secret door").

[rmaunus]

I believe V is a woman.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Really? Which male character has round hips?

No males as far as I know, but look at Miko's hips.

[kgato503]

Ummm, I believe we already have a thread on this: V's Gender Debate V [Official] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201481)

Just saying, since it seems like this has started down the gender argument path again.

[Kish]

Is it still legal to post to that thread? The last post to it was...a while ago.

[ThePhantasm]

Is it still legal to post to that thread? The last post to it was...a while ago.

No, that thread is definitely dead. Posting there would be necromancy.

Besides, who really wants to get into this debate again? There is no answer, folks. No. Answer.

[The Cat Goddess]

I believe that all Elves are both... or either, as their mood strikes.

Elves have full gender equality because they are all equal genders.

[ThePhantasm]

I believe that all Elves are both... or either, as their mood strikes.

Elves have full gender equality because they are all equal genders.

I don't see any indication of this in the strip. Many elves seem to have clear genders in OOTS (see Lirian as an example). V is the only one that is certainly... uncertain.

[ti'esar]

I don't see any indication of this in the strip. Many elves seem to have clear genders in OOTS (see Lirian as an example). V is the only one that is certainly... uncertain.

Actually, Lirian is the only elf with a clearly identifiable gender.

[ThePhantasm]

Actually, Lirian is the only elf with a clearly identifiable gender.

Elf Commander and Lieutenant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html): Male and Female

[ti'esar]

Elf Commander and Lieutenant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html): Male and Female

I'll concede on the commander, but the lieutenant could go either way - s/he is either a flat-chested female or a long-haired male.

I did notice that Lirian was depicted as identifiably female (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) before starting her relationship with Dorukan, so my theory on that seems to be shot down.

[Gift Jeraff]

Zz'dtri has been referred to as male by 6 different characters and the Giant, so I think that's another definite one. Or are we just referring to art?

[Saeyan]

Except that with the original order, Rich was creating a 5-man adventuring party. Vaarsuvius didn't exist during the planning stage.

Really? where does it say that? :smallconfused:

[ThePhantasm]

Zz'dtri has been referred to as male by 6 different characters and the Giant, so I think that's another definite one. Or are we just referring to art?

No, we are referring to the actual characters, and you are right.

[Capt Spanner]

Hmm - I'll go with:

- Initially male;
- I've always thought of em as female;
- But now I think of them as genderqueer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergender).

Given that I know several intersex and intergender people IRL, this is much easier than it sounds at first.

[ti'esar]

Zz'dtri has been referred to as male by 6 different characters and the Giant, so I think that's another definite one. Or are we just referring to art?

Given the traditional gender-separation of drow society, I'm not sure he (or any other drow that we might see) would count.

[Dr.Epic]

That's the joke.

You suck McBain! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDEuLXLNGBo)
Sorry, I had to make that reference.

:smallwink:


Yeah, the Giant will never reveal this. Now let's talk about important things: like if the Monster in the Darkness is Belkar's Death Prophecy/Right Eye's Daughter.:smallwink:

[veti]

I've always quite liked the "humans can't really tell what gender an elf is" concept Rich has been playing with in the strip.

Obligatory DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=645) hook.

[Mixt]

V's gender is "Pure Evil"

Simple as that.

[Hamiltonz]

V's gender is "Pure Evil"

Simple as that.

I prefer to think of V as "True Neuter"

[HearTheRequiem]

You don't have to spoiler stuff in the main comic. Also, Kyrie has square hips, unlike all women not in armor.
Miss Serini (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) appears to have square hips.

[Umberhulk]

I've always considered V a him, with the complications that all of Rich's elves are a bit ambiguous.

[FujinAkari]

Really? where does it say that? :smallconfused:

In the Dungeon Crawlin' Fools commentary. Originally Roy was a wizard and would be pulling double-duty as the smart one and the sarcastic leader, but Rich realized that he wouldn't be able to have the wizard be aloof and only interested in furthering his own power AND ALSO be the straight-man to foil a lot of the antics of the rest of the party, so he made Roy into the straight man and created Vaarsuvius.

[The Cat Goddess]

Actually, Lirian is the only elf with a clearly identifiable gender.

If you're referring to a drawing made by a halfling in said halfling's diary... then that halfling's perception would obviously color how they drew Lirian's figure.

Lirian may have appeared just as gender-ambiguous as Vaarsuvius, but Serini drew Lirian as female because of perception, not necessarily reality.

[Cavenskull]

The great irony is that all this effort to figure out V's gender is precisely the reason we don't know. If there hadn't been such a burning desire for people to find out, the comic probably would have revealed the answer long ago. Instead, it's purposefully designed to remain a mystery.

[ti'esar]

If you're referring to a drawing made by a halfling in said halfling's diary... then that halfling's perception would obviously color how they drew Lirian's figure.

Lirian may have appeared just as gender-ambiguous as Vaarsuvius, but Serini drew Lirian as female because of perception, not necessarily reality.

We've seen Lirian in person, though, not just in a drawing.

[MoonCat]

Miss Serini (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) appears to have square hips.

Hmm. Wow. I wonder why.

[FujinAkari]

Hmm. Wow. I wonder why.

Because Sereni isn't humans. Nonhumans don't follow the same rules of anatomy, such as the many lizardfolk men with round hips.

[ti'esar]

Because Sereni isn't humans. Nonhumans don't follow the same rules of anatomy, such as the many lizardfolk men with round hips.

...Which would throw out the entire point of this argument, wouldn't it?

[Haldir]

The arguments against the theory that elves are an asexual species are invalid. Just because an elf chooses to adopt female or male dress doesn't necessarily specify that the entire race has clear gender identities. The only elf I'm ever aware of that admitted to or denoted any sort of gender distinction was Pompey, the half elf.

And no, the existence of half elves doesn't necessitate elven gender either. Compatible biological materials are compatible biological materials, regardless of their methods of delivery or reception.

[Esprit15]

The arguments against the theory that elves are an asexual species are invalid. Just because an elf chooses to adopt female or male dress doesn't necessarily specify that the entire race has clear gender identities. The only elf I'm ever aware of that admitted to or denoted any sort of gender distinction was Pompey, the half elf.

And no, the existence of half elves doesn't necessitate elven gender either. Compatible biological materials are compatible biological materials, regardless of their methods of delivery or reception.

The method of reception requires at least one sex to exist.

[t209]

Hmm. Wow. I wonder why.

1. She's short
2. She's wearing a dress.
P.S- I think the (now pulpy) brown shirt elf commando (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) 2nd in command is wearing an underwear or similiar to one.

[Raithix]

I've always seen Vaarsuvius as a female, or elven female analog, especially since s/he started putting his/her hair in back into a ponytail.
It just seemed to make sense that Vaarsuvius and Haley would room together if Vaarsuvius was a female. Plus, in V's character profile in NCftPB it mentions that s/he lied about his/her age on the application form, stating 103 years instead of 130. That sounds like something a female would do more than a male. Granted, there have been plenty of men who have lied on their military entry forms to get into the army at a premature age, but that wouldn't really make sense given that Roy wouldn't have had any kind of age limitation.

[Gift Jeraff]

I've always seen Vaarsuvius as a female, or elven female analog, especially since s/he started putting his/her hair in back into a ponytail.
It just seemed to make sense that Vaarsuvius and Haley would room together if Vaarsuvius was a female. Plus, in V's character profile in NCftPB it mentions that s/he lied about his/her age on the application form, stating 103 years instead of 130. That sounds like something a female would do more than a male. Granted, there have been plenty of men who have lied on their military entry forms to get into the army at a premature age, but that wouldn't really make sense given that Roy wouldn't have had any kind of age limitation.That was the Giant screwing up elven age rules and then correcting it in the cast pages. Likewise, Durkon's age is too young in NCftPB but is corrected in WaXP.

[Haldir]

The method of reception requires at least one sex to exist.

As someone who likes to include evolutionary historical schemes into my fantasy works, I will indulge you by suggesting that perhaps elves are all asexual, capable of insemination and incubation with a single organ, not infeasible, moving genetic material doesn't need to be super complex, afterall. If this organ is compatible with humans... perhaps elves are just a "breed" of what we consider to be homo sapien, and that breed just happens to be asexual.

This is not impossible. Reproductive methods are a fundamental piece of the evolution model and are highly susceptible to change, some reptiles have been observed giving birth to live young, and we now theorize that switches from live young to egg laying may be much more common than we previously thought. As far as reproductive tricks go, asexuality is an old one.

Though, the cosmos of OOTS was specifically designed by Gods, nullifying this argument but opening the option that the Gods specifically designed an asexual elf race that was compatible with humans.

[veti]

The only elf I'm ever aware of that admitted to or denoted any sort of gender distinction was Pompey, the half elf.

Last frame (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). Certainly looks like a clear gender distinction to me.

Not necessarily, of course. But that's what it looks like.

[ti'esar]

Last frame (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). Certainly looks like a clear gender distinction to me.

Not necessarily, of course. But that's what it looks like.

As I and others noted, Lirian seems to be the objection that proves the rule. The theory that was shot down was actually that she identifies as female because of her relationship with Dorukan - that by no means proves that most elves have a gender (whether we can tell it or not).

[veti]

As I and others noted, Lirian seems to be the objection that proves the rule. The theory that was shot down was actually that she identifies as female because of her relationship with Dorukan - that by no means proves that most elves have a gender (whether we can tell it or not).

"The exception that proves the rule" - doesn't mean that the existence of a counter-example "proves" the existence of the general rule. That would be absurd - the kind of Insane Troll Logic we could use to conclude that liches are, for the most part, generous and placid individuals.

What it means is that it proves that "the general rule" is only a general rule, not an absolute law.

I was responding to a poster who said that no elves had clear gender identities. How many elves have we seen interacting in any kind of environment where gender might make a difference? I count three - V, Inkyrius, and Lirian - of whom one definitely does have such an identity. To generalise from that sample to an entire race is ridiculous.

[ti'esar]

"The exception that proves the rule" - doesn't mean that the existence of a counter-example "proves" the existence of the general rule. That would be absurd - the kind of Insane Troll Logic we could use to conclude that liches are, for the most part, generous and placid individuals.

What it means is that it proves that "the general rule" is only a general rule, not an absolute law.

I was responding to a poster who said that no elves had clear gender identities. How many elves have we seen interacting in any kind of environment where gender might make a difference? I count three - V, Inkyrius, and Lirian - of whom one definitely does have such an identity. To generalise from that sample to an entire race is ridiculous.

Exception, sorry.

And what I meant is more that Lirian appears to be the only elf with a clear gender identity (Z and Pompey don't count, as they aren't part of elven civilization proper), whereas we've seen many elves whose gender is ambiguous. If we had seen no elves with a gender at all, then it would have been possible that they have gender identities and other races just can't identify them, but the appearance of one clearly female elf indicates it is possible. So there's got to be some other reason why most elves are ambiguous, and the idea that Lirian is specifically choosing to identify as female is one possibility.

[veti]

If we had seen no elves with a gender at all, then it would have been possible that they have gender identities and other races just can't identify them, but the appearance of one clearly female elf indicates it is possible. So there's got to be some other reason why most elves are ambiguous, and the idea that Lirian is specifically choosing to identify as female is one possibility.

One possibility, but only one.

The long lifespan of elves may, quite logically, imply that they have what we would call a very low libido. After all, if you've got 175 years before you even hit middle age, there's no tearing hurry to pass on your genes. I submit that this explains quite simply and elegantly why V doesn't understand the shorter-lived races' obsession with gender, and why most elves don't go out of their way to advertise their gender to the casual observer, without need for speculation that elves in fact reproduce by grafting pieces of their ears onto trees or something, which is where the poster I was responding to seemed to be going.

[ti'esar]

For the record, I at least don't believe that elves are biologically a one-gender race. I think it's possible they may not have genders as such, but I do think there's two biological elf sexes. Except for a couple of inexplicably medium-sized creatures, OOTS doesn't really play around with the basic nature of its races to that extent.

[Haldir]

There is no proof Lirian is female, just that she has sexual relations with a human, which a properly "designed" asexual race could feasibly do.

[ti'esar]

There is no proof Lirian is female, just that she has sexual relations with a human, which a properly "designed" asexual race could feasibly do.

She does have certain distinctly female physical characteristics.

[FujinAkari]

There is no proof Lirian is female, just that she has sexual relations with a human, which a properly "designed" asexual race could feasibly do.

Uh, Start of Darkness is pretty clear as to which gender Lirian is...

[Dr. Strangelove]

Judging from the verbosity, I'd say female.

Also, Tsukiko pegged V as female.

Lastly, Belkar kissed V, and the belkster is definitely male and heterosexual.

Case closed.

[Haldir]

She does have certain distinctly female physical characteristics.

Does she? Because every clearly female character I've ever seen Rich draw has some feminine features. Lirian certainly dresses feminine, but like all elves, lacks a distinct feminine form.

I'm not aware of Lirian explicitly stating a gender in Start of Darkness, (I don't have the book and it's been a long while since I read it.) only that she was in a relationship with a human male, which still doesn't necessitate that gender has any meaning when applied to elves.

[Raithix]

Gift Jeraff,
I didn't know that was the reason for the change, thanks for telling me.

[androkguz]

I used to think V was a woman prior to the ponytail but since the ponytail I've started thinking of hir as more of a man.

So no idea lol
I have had the same experience

[Jay R]

1) If tvtropes has taught me anything, it's that in a six-member party where four of the characters have melee capabilities and the other two members are the archer and the squishy wizard, those two will be women.

2) If Rich really did have a 4/1 set-up before creating V, it's likely he saw that and thought 'that's a large gender disparity. I realise said gender disparity is commonplace in all fiction not specifically created for women, but I should do something about that'. He is a creative, liberally-minded person after all... probably... according to stereotypes associated with creative folk.

So V is female both because that's the stereotype and because that's not the stereotype?


Does she? Because every clearly female character I've ever seen Rich draw has some feminine features.

She has a set just like Haley's, but they are not nearly so large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html).

Give it up. There's no answer.