Shapechange and Wierds

[Talakeal]

Quick question that has been bugging me for a few years. I had a player who would shape change into an elemental weird and then trap nearby enemies in his elemental pool.

Is this legal? The pool isn't part of the wierd's body but is an ability of the race, would shape change create one?

The player in question insisted it was legal by RAW, and said he wouldn't play if we didn't let him do it, but I still wonder.

Combined with 18th level sorcerer casting and the ability to summon endless elemental minions, that one creature pretty much ended the game once shape change became available.

[jindra34]

Quick question that has been bugging me for a few years. I had a player who would shape change into an elemental weird and then trap nearby enemies in his elemental pool.

Is this legal? The pool isn't part of the wierd's body but is an ability of the race, would shape change create one?

The player in question insisted it was legal by RAW, and said he wouldn't play if we didn't let him do it, but I still wonder.

Combined with 18th level sorcerer casting and the ability to summon endless elemental minions, that one creature pretty much ended the game once shape change became available.

I believe that it might work for all of one round. Then they use the ability to shift clause of shapechange and are free to wreck havoc. Miss read question, thought you said shapechange enemies. But shapechange grants ALL abilities of the creature so yeah it works until he switches out of the form.

[Gavinfoxx]

THAT is what he would do as a Weird? Not, you know, learn the answer to anything ever??

"Analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing, vision, all at will"

He should be using ALL OF THOSE to, you know, learn things...

[Urpriest]

First, any player who insists that their favorite combo must be allowed or they'll leave the group is going to be a problem eventually, one way or another.

That said, I think that the Weird should keep its pool. As mentioned the pool is an ability of the Weird, so it could be thought of as either something vaguely like an aura or as some vague extension of the weird's body. It would have been easy to describe the rules for the pool without making it an ability, the choice of the designers to do it the way they did means they intended it to work this way.

[Talakeal]

The divinations are nice, but wierds already have access to 18th level casting of almost every spell in the game. He would cast whatever spell he needed in any given situation, divinations included.

But in combat he would simply run into the middle of the enemies and then turn into a wierd. DC 20 save or die, and then unless they had a huge list of buffs and immunities would be trapped in the pool until they died. It pretty much ended every combat in one round, while his infinite spellcasting wrecked the game out of combat, and his infinite army of elementals mopped up.


the choice of the designers to do it the way they did means they intended it to work this way.

Keep in mind, wierds are from the Monster Manual II. The only intent I think the authors of that book had was to find a way to keep the drugs flowing after they finished writing.

Seriously, a CR 12 with full 18th level sorcerer abilities (+ cleric domains, minions, DR and Regeneration 10 - both with no listed way to overcome them, SR 25 AND a pool of instant death!)

[Mystify]

Yes, shapechange is a really brokenly powerful spell.

[Talakeal]

While on the subject, I am still not quite clear on how shape change works with innate casting.

Do you have to prepare the spells after taking on the form?

Do you get to pick new spells every time you leave the form and come back (or turn into a different creature with innate casting)?

Do the spell slots "recharge" when you leave the form and come back (or turn into a different creature with innate casting)?

How about once per day abilities? Do they "recharge" when you leave the form and come back (or turn into a different creature with the same SLA)?

If the answer to any of the above is no, what about if you end the spell and cast it again?

Man, I thought it was bad when PCs just shape shifted into the various Demons and sold their magic weapons for infinite cash...

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you seen this?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080611085922/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-226959

[Manateee]

The pools aren't listed as supernatural or extraordinary abilities (ie. the things Shapechange transfers).
Neither are spells.
(Shut up Hobgobs. <_<)

There are readings of the Polymorph Subschool change in the PHB2 that would permit both of these, but they're blatantly abusive interpretations of an obvious and understandable oversight.

But Shapechange is a ridiculous ability, even without these specifics allowed.

[Talakeal]

They are listed as SU in the base wierd description, for some reason that tag was left off the individuals wierd's entries.

[Manateee]

They are listed as SU in the base wierd description, for some reason that tag was left off the individuals wierd's entries.

That's.... weird.

[Randomguy]

The pools aren't listed as supernatural or extraordinary abilities (ie. the things Shapechange transfers).
Neither are spells.

This. In rules compedium, it was (apparently) stated that spellcasting is neither supernatural or extraordinary, so you don't get it through shapechange. You do, however, get the divination abilities.