Sucker punch...the suckening

[dehro]

this movie is so bad it even fails at being so bad it's good.
it's like they took the script to "girls interrupted" gave it a good read, threw it in a shredder, handed a wad of cash to some basement-dwelling gamer whose nearest source of information on girls are sailor moon and tomb raider, and told him to go wild.
I'm actually mad at myself for having wasted time watching it.. which hasn't happened...since "lesbian vampire killers"
to think that I could have spent the time in more constructive ways.. I don't know.. punching myself in the gnads sounds more constructive, right now.
the only blessing is that the movie is so pointless I'm already starting to forget most of it.

[Devonix]

I actually enjoyed the movie. Thought it was styalisticly interesting and that the hidden plots and such were well done.

[Tiki Snakes]

I went in expecting a low-rent, vacuous summer action movie. I was rather suprised by the film, infact. It was an audio-visual-feast, but had some suprisingly involved themes and plots and subplots going on, all things considered.

Generally, I'd say it punched far above it's weight. It's not without faults (not by a long way) and I was a little annoyed by the resolution (Which is to say, I got punched like a sucker) but overall much better than it had any right to be.

[Dumbledore lives]

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, but I'll try. I liked Sucker Punch, I understand the complaints people have about it, I understand why it is so divisive, ie love it or hate it, but I'm curious what your particular objections are.

You seem to have hated the script, which I don't think too many others did, I found it mediocre to good. I definitely think there is more there than a lot of critics give it credit for, and most people as well. Reading his comments about it was certainly enlightening.

I'm also curious if you consider the film sexist, and towards which gender. Another contentious issue which people seem very divided about. I'll tell you what, I liked the multiple dreamscapes, I liked that while open to interpretation, it did not have a stupid ending like Inception, which I actually like less than Sucker Punch, crazy as that opinion may be. I liked that it had touches of Brazil as well as 300, and liked how the ending was not just happy, because honestly I hate sugar sweet endings.

[Dogmantra]

I actually enjoyed the movie. Thought it was styalisticly interesting and that the hidden plots and such were well done.

Me too. I wasn't expecting a groundbreaking plot or well developed characters or anything. I was expecting a relatively fun action flick I could watch with my tongue jammed firmly into my cheek, and it delivered.

[Raistlin1040]

I concur with the above opinions. I expected it to be "cool". It delivered in that regard, but it was also deceptively intelligent and well-done on many levels, I thought.

[BRC]

I enjoyed it, my main problem with it is that the multiple layers of dream and metaphor separated everything from reality to the point where it felt like there was no real connection between the action (Metaphorical) and what was actually happening.

Like, for example, the girls are fighting steampunk germans, what does that represent in terms of their plan to get out of the brothel? And how does that relate to what was ACTUALLY going on in the asylum.
The action scenes were supurb, but without context they were really just pretty music videos.

I could see what it was aiming for, and points for trying, but it didn't succeed.

[toasty]

Went to see a B-17 dogfighting a dragon above a Castle filled with Orcs and humans fighting each other.

Saw that and Steampunk Zombies. Left pleased.

Really, this is why I hate critics sometimes. It was universally panned for everything that was unimportant. It was agood movie cuz it delivered amazing special effects. If you don't want a nerdgasm, don't see it.

edit: regards to sexism. I don't see it. This is a movie designed to play into nerd-cliches regarding these kind of things. This movie was an attempt to create a stylish nerd-fantasy come true. Part of that is "fanservice." It was hardly even soft-core porn, but instead a nod to the fact that the genres and art styles this movie pays homage too have a certain way of picturing women. Yes it is a sexist way, but just because you choose to follow a sexist style, knowing it is sexist, but choosing to do that because the genre requires it seems to strip the sexism out of the picture entirely at that point. Its obnoxious that people claim sexism when all that they can point to is a few things that really aren't even the focus of the movie (the focus of the movie is stylish action sequences). Its like complaining that Huckleberry Finn is a racist book because people say the N word a lot in that book. They do, but that's because back then the N word was commonly used, and to purposely avoid this word would be untrue to the genre.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I concur with the above opinions. I expected it to be "cool". It delivered in that regard, but it was also deceptively intelligent and well-done on many levels, I thought.

Indeed. Emphasis on the 'deceptively'. It's easy to get distracted by the window dressing and miss the deeper aspects to it... which is of course the whole idea. Mostly like the movie for meta-ness in it's playing with audience expectations, while still delivering highly entertaining mindless nerdgasmic action.

[Devonix]

One of the things I liked was that the things in the dream were shown that they were the interperetations of a crazy person and wern't supposed to be taken seriously.

Such as how in the Dream the female doctor was interpreted as being in league with Blue because at that point Babydoll saw herself as completely alone and anyone who said they were trying to help was obviously to her someone who would either be unwilling or unable to do such.

When in reality the female doctor tried everything in her power to get through to Babydoll but she refused to even talk to her.

[McStabbington]

edit: regards to sexism. I don't see it. This is a movie designed to play into nerd-cliches regarding these kind of things. This movie was an attempt to create a stylish nerd-fantasy come true. Part of that is "fanservice." It was hardly even soft-core porn, but instead a nod to the fact that the genres and art styles this movie pays homage too have a certain way of picturing women. Yes it is a sexist way, but just because you choose to follow a sexist style, knowing it is sexist, but choosing to do that because the genre requires it seems to strip the sexism out of the picture entirely at that point. Its obnoxious that people claim sexism when all that they can point to is a few things that really aren't even the focus of the movie (the focus of the movie is stylish action sequences). Its like complaining that Huckleberry Finn is a racist book because people say the N word a lot in that book. They do, but that's because back then the N word was commonly used, and to purposely avoid this word would be untrue to the genre.

. . .Um, are you sure that's the right analogy? Because choosing "to follow a racist style, knowing that it is racist, but choosing to do it because the genre requires it" isn't what The Adventures of Huck Finn did. Something more accurate would be remaking The Song of the South (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47ak4vjiNzw), knowing that it's racist, but deciding to make everyone sound like they're selling 7-Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tAiEFhNHZk) anyway because it just wouldn't be Song-of-the-South-y enough without the ebonics.

[Devonix]

I feel bad for Derhro

He makes this thread to talk about how much he hates a movie and every post so far is people talking about how they liked it. :smallwink:

[MLai]

I think the disconnect comes from trying to combine deep themes/plot together with nerdtastic action/candy. Viewers can't get past the action/candy to appreciate the deeper themes. It's like trying to stage King Lear with clowns and complaining that the audience don't get your literary genius.

After taking a longer look at the film, it's true that this film isn't sexist towards women. At all. No, seriously.

[NinjaStylerobot]

I hated the dull tensionless action, the pointless and hamhanded symbolism and themes and stupid story.

[BRC]

I think the disconnect comes from trying to combine deep themes/plot together with nerdtastic action/candy. Viewers can't get past the action/candy to appreciate the deeper themes. It's like trying to stage King Lear with clowns and complaining that the audience don't get your literary genius.

After taking a longer look at the film, it's true that this film isn't sexist towards women. At all. No, seriously.

I think that one can combine deep themes with Eye candy, but that's not what Sucker Punch tried to do. Sucker Punch tried to have deep themes, and it kind of did, and it tried to have eye candy, which it certainly did. What it failed to do was really connect the two in any meaningful way. I saw the hints of Deep themes, but beyond a kind of generically agreeable message of "Girl Power" and "it's wrong to take bribes in exchange for having people lobotomized", I didn't actually see that much. A lot of the "Deep Themes" and "Symbolism" really just seems to be generic vagueness that says "Hey, Interpret me!"

Like, for example, the idea that each of the girls in the Brothel actually represents an aspect of the main character's personality. That's an interesting take, but really, there's no evidence in favor of it, any more than there is to suggest that each one represented another inmate at the asylum, or that they were all just complete hallucinations. Sucker Punch SEEMS to have deep meaning written all over it, but any time I think about it, I don't see anything. There is a bad man doing bad things, and the girls are trying to stop him.


I think my biggest problem is that the film only uses events in the "Real" world as bookends. If it jumped between the "real" world and the "Brothel" world more often, I could call it an exploration of the nature of fantasy and escapism. As it is, beyond Orderly= Pimp and the "High Roller"= the lobotomy, we don't spend enough time in the asylum to understand the vague, metaphor-world of the Brothel. Like, for example, the lady doctor in the Asylum turns into a dance instructor in the Brothel, there is a lot of symbolism that COULD be seen in that, but we have nothing to connect it to. In the asylum, she should be more powerful than an orderly, in the brothel she is subservient to Blue, what does that mean? It COULD mean that in the Asylum there is an unofficial power dynamic where, perhaps through threats, bribes, connections, or simple charisma, the orderly is actually in charge. It COULD be indicating that, from baby doll's perspective, the doctor is just a pawn in Blue's larger scheme. It COULD indicate that the Brothel is actually Blue's misogynist power fantasy, with the girls he spends all day taking care of reduced to his property and entertainment, and the woman who orders him to clean out bedpans reduced to an instrument of that exploitation.

It COULD mean any of those things, or more, but I'm not convinced it does. This isn't even "Intentional Vagueness" like the spinning top at the end of Inception, that directly asked us one question: Was Leo's character actually awake? What Sucker Punch did isn't asking us questions, it's just hinting at symbolism and hoping we do the rest.

For example, let's go back to the above, the apparent power dynamic reversal between "Blue" and whatever the doctor/ dance teacher's name is. If we'd spent some time in the Asylum and seen Blue threatening, bribing, or otherwise ordering around the doctor, we could understand that the hallucinatory brothel was representing the real power dynamic, rather than the official one, if instead we saw Blue glaring resentfully at the doctor, we might draw that the brothel was representing HIS fantasy.

But we don't get any of that, all we get is that he took the money and forged a signature while "Baby Doll" caused some trouble before being lobotomized.

[Raistlin1040]

Death of the Author, bro. It doesn't really matter if Sucker Punch intended us to have these discussions about sexism or power dynamics or escapism vs reality, or even what the film itself has to say about them. The fact that it can be interpreted and discussed in a serious context about Deep Themes is enough for me. I think it actually works not showing the symbolism obviously (depending on your opinion, you could say that it didn't show the symbolism well, instead), because it lends itself better to a discussion and a conversation about what it means.

[kyoryu]

I enjoyed it, my main problem with it is that the multiple layers of dream and metaphor separated everything from reality to the point where it felt like there was no real connection between the action (Metaphorical) and what was actually happening.


That was the point. Word of God and all that, the action scenes were deliberately disconnected. The point is that the audience would be willing to watch a movie about systemic abuse of women because, hey, chicks in skimpy costumes cavorting about. Just like the men in the movie were willing to systemically abuse women because, hey, cheap sex.



Such as how in the Dream the female doctor was interpreted as being in league with Blue because at that point Babydoll saw herself as completely alone and anyone who said they were trying to help was obviously to her someone who would either be unwilling or unable to do such.

When in reality the female doctor tried everything in her power to get through to Babydoll but she refused to even talk to her.

I've always taken the Bordello "level" of reality to be *Blue*'s fantasy, not that of any of the girls. So the female doctor was in league with Blue because Blue thought he had her under his control, and it was part of his delusion of power and glamour.

[Dr.Epic]

Congrats. You've discovered something most of the internet has known for almost a year now.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I liked this movie. The action scenes were amazing, visually it was amazing, and the soundtrack was jaw-dropping. The plot was meh, but if you went into this movie looking for an amazing plot, you're looking in all the wrong places.

Normally, I don't like Death of the Author, but this is a case where the creators left things INTENTIONALLY up to the audience's interpretation. The creators ENCOURAGE Death of the Author with this movie. Whether that makes their movie "deeper" or not, your call. I think it's a valid artistic decision. Very Chaikin-esque. The idea that they are merely exploring a theme, and letting the audience draw their own conclusion from it. Very much a part of Open Theatre, and a valid artistic approach.

[Devonix]

That was the point. Word of God and all that, the action scenes were deliberately disconnected. The point is that the audience would be willing to watch a movie about systemic abuse of women because, hey, chicks in skimpy costumes cavorting about. Just like the men in the movie were willing to systemically abuse women because, hey, cheap sex.



I've always taken the Bordello "level" of reality to be *Blue*'s fantasy, not that of any of the girls. So the female doctor was in league with Blue because Blue thought he had her under his control, and it was part of his delusion of power and glamour.

I disagree with the thought that Blue belived he had her under his control because everything he did was to keep her from finding out. and the second that she did discover BAM Police instantly appear. I saw it as Babydoll not beliveing that someone outside would be of any help which was why she imagined up a team of girls to help her.

[Cespenar]

The action choreographies weren't even all that good. It was as if they thought simply adding "katana, guns, dragons, steampunk, undead" into a sentence would make the action scenes amazing on their own.

[dehro]

my issue with it is that you can't see the theme for the forest of bullets and legs.
I consider myself an averagely intelligent person. The fact that I should go look for an interview of the author to find out that there's a deeper theme and deeper intent than putting together visual gems that really work better as music videos than as part of a cohesive storytelling, doesn't sit well with me.
when what I've been watching clearly is the nerdgasm inducing summa of the author's interests in the field of gaming and literature, I laugh and scoff at his attempts to justify this shambles by retroactively introducing supposed intellectual wankery
in fact, this here is my reaction
http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad159/Hidden_Amaranth/Sheldonhaughtyderision.jpg

yes, you can postulate that the brothel is Blue's delusion..but how does that delusion tie in with her delusions? or are the combat scenes also his? and either way, how does that tie in with what happens in the real world?..which in fact happens offscreen and is then infodumped on us in rather clumsy inconcluding ways?
the "real world story" is totally unbelievable and doesn't hang together in any discernible way that could stand up to "real world mechanics"... and if that one fails, whatever comes next is pretty much the halucination of someone who should not have unsupervised access to the medical supplies... and as hallucinations go..it doesn't really make sense on a deeper level either.
the real story should be what is ultimately important. it isn't hinted at or expanded upon until the very last scene, which makes it all rather pointless.. turning the whole movie into a "dallas moment".. where suddenly the head of the mental institute wakes up and finds a creep in the shower. it tries to be clever, but fails because of the too many inconsistencies and the deep lack of corelation between the 2/3 levels of reality/fantasy.
all considered, the real story is nothing but a loosely held together series of circumstances that are vastly under-explored, with the sole function of somehow pretending to make the sequence of videogames trailers tie together. Purely an excuse for someone who likes orcs, steampunk and WW1 movies to somehow cram them in one movie...
does Kingdom Hearts ring a bell?
a somehow believable hallucination should be fed (and feed) by reality, it's themes and issues.. as crap a movie as it was, Cell with, Jennifer can't-act-to-save-her-life Lopez, makes a much better job of it...by infusing the fantasy and subconscious of the killer with his psychological corruption/devastation... using recognizable symbolism and hints to the real world. this doesn't happen at all in Sucker Punch..

the author should have had the decency to just say "yeah..I like orcs, dragons, hot chicks..and big guns..so I put them together and ran with it..the rest is unimportant... looks cool though, doesn't it?" (which I admit it does, in most places)

it's what half the population of youtube would do if they had his budget..and no, that doesn't make it a good idea.

sexism, you say? I don't really see it. had the author been into men he might have had a cast of blokes.. or maybe not..we don't know. does that mean sexism is at work? I just think the movie is deeply egotistical...made for the director, so to speak, to showcase stuff he likes. it just so happens he has a decent eye for girls that look hot in a sailor moon outfit.
the fact that the movie was set in the fifties could add some sort of empowerement/social commentary/femminist viewpoint to it..except there's too little "real world" to see for it to have any relevance to the plot, the intentions of the author or the reasons why the movie sucks.
notice how the issue of sexism is introduced, again, by the director himself.. probably because he'd run out of arguments to give his movie some intellectual weight.

the only thing that misses, something that could indeed have given the whole plot more sense, is a small image in the corner of the screen, at all times, of the director sitting in a comfy chair and munching on popcorn..with his briefs around his ankles.

[MLai]

I'm confused at your actual goal when you decided to watch this movie. Because if you thought you were watching "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest", then you were mistaken, and you'd get zero sympathy from anyone. If you just wanted to watch a flick with "orcs, dragons, zombies, and WW1, with chicks"... then that's what you got. That's what the entire movie trailer showed, no false advertising here. Where's the complaint?

While we say that the movie tries for deep themes, we never said it worked, or that it made the movie better. Most of us have said it was tried. Who cares if it failed? The orcs and dragons worked for most of us.

The important thing, for me, was that it wasn't misogynist. Because that would have lowered the entertainment value of the entertaining parts. And, this movie was not misogynistic.

[Oindoth]

I liked Sucker Punch, honestly. The action scenes were interesting and dynamic, the plot was engaging while it was going on, and the escapist themes were clearly there, if not omnipresent. It seemed to me to be a case of the director/screenwriter breaking up the "heavy" stuff, as it were, with a bit of fantastical nonsense, just as an escapist might do themselves. I think the whole point was to stick the audience in the shoes of the protagonist, and the disconnect that a lot of people felt was the result.

[Killer Angel]

I feel bad for Derhro

He makes this thread to talk about how much he hates a movie and every post so far is people talking about how they liked it. :smallwink:

The fact is that peoples that hate that movie, would like to forget about it, so they avoid the argument.

We're talking about what? :smalltongue:

[dehro]

If you just wanted to watch a flick with "orcs, dragons, zombies, and WW1, with chicks"... then that's what you got. That's what the entire movie trailer showed, no false advertising here. Where's the complaint?

the complaint is in the fact that when someone puts all those elements together, I expect him to at least attempt to juggle them in such a way that it actually makes sense for them to be together.
this sad attempt failed to even try.
for much less money than they spent making it, they could have borrowed a few good scenes from otherwise unrelated movies and glued them together.
I might as well have watched a marathon of MOTR, army of darkness and girls interrupted...and then mixed it up watching a scene here and a scene there.
if a movie doesn't engage me on an intellectual level, I at least expect it to engage emotionally.
since the scenes were so disconnected and inconsequential to one another, at the end, during the big reveal, I couldn't care less about the lobotomized girl, because I had developed no empathy or sympathy for her at all...and since apparently most of what she went through ON SCREEN may well have been in the head of Blue.. I probably was right in not feeling any connection to her. at the end what we have here is the story of a mental institution where an orderly does unspeakable things to it's patients. do we see any of that? do we get emotionally engaged by it? do we even really know about it until the end?
no, just... no.

if I watch a movie with dragons and chicks and guns, I still want it to be a movie..otherwise no amount of dragon, chicks and guns can compensate for the lack of story, plot, acting,empathy... I could keep going.
I might just as well read through my d&d monster manual

yes, from a visual point of view the project is rather satisfying..so is the intro to Dragon Age Origins. Being a feast for the eyes doesn't make something a movie..let alone a good one. this just wasn't a movie.
on top of that, if we should believe the director's intentions, it has the pretentiousness of trying to be clever and failing utterly at it.

the old man character for instance, making a final appearance as a savvy busdriver..it reeks to me as an attempt at recreating the "disturbing idea" of not having left the fantasy that inception introduced when they showed the spinning top at the end of the movie.
this tells me that it does try to be cleverer than it is, because the spinning top makes total sense in inception, being a plot device and something that is explained "in movie".. whereas the old man had no truck being there in the first place..either in fantasy or reality.

the movie is such a shambles of halfbaked ideas that no amount of special effects can compensate for the crappyness that is the plot/movie.

[MLai]

While the plot of the IRL part is the mental institution, the orderly, and all that. The specific details of that aren't what's important, and you put too much emphasis on that.

The important part is the orderly's relationship with the girls. And that was portrayed using the bordello setting. It isn't correct to say "I only got shown 10 minutes of the mental institution setting throughout the entire movie, therefore I cannot empathize with the character." You were shown 80 minutes of the character in the bordello. This is what reflects her emotional state and characterization.

[Devonix]

I believed that the combat fantasies were not the imagination of any of the characters but instead our dream. To us which do you think would be more distracting a regular burlesque dance or an epic action scene.

[MLai]

Yes but in the REAL world it was the orderly having sex with the protag. I'd say that would be the most distracting thing for us to see.

[Devonix]

Yes but in the REAL world it was the orderly having sex with the protag. I'd say that would be the most distracting thing for us to see.

well duh :smallwink:

[Avilan the Grey]

Personally I opted out of this movie as soon as I realized it wasn't all fanservice and violence. I am completely uninterested in all the serious stuff.

[Devonix]

I had no idea what I was in for and enjoyed myself.

[DigoDragon]

This line from a parody "Abridged Script" I thought was relevant:
Director Zack Snyder: "I couldn't decide what kind of movie to make so I made ALL OF THEM!"

That being said, I saw the movie and thought it was a decent action flick. I personally have no regrets paying the price of admission to see it.

[kyoryu]

I disagree with the thought that Blue belived he had her under his control because everything he did was to keep her from finding out. and the second that she did discover BAM Police instantly appear. I saw it as Babydoll not beliveing that someone outside would be of any help which was why she imagined up a team of girls to help her.

But she didn't imagine them. We saw most of those girls in the beginning of the movie, before we transitioned to the bordello.

Also, a point in favor of it being Blue's delusion - do you think that "Babydoll" and "Blondie" and "Sweetpea" are names they'd give themselves? Or are those the types of objectifying names that Blue would give them? I'm pretty sure he even called Babydoll *exactly that* before the bordello transition.

(BTW, I'm not arguing this movie is high art. I think Snyder had some good ideas in there, and that he totally failed to get them across effectively)

[SoC175]

this movie is so bad it even fails at being so bad it's good.I agree. Despite the critics I wanted to give it a chance, but I just had to stop after the WW1 fantasy. This movie is just bad.

I have watched a lot of bad movies, but this was one of the few I couldn't bring myself to watch to the end.

delivered amazing special effects. If you don't want a nerdgasm, don't see it. I have to disagree, I have watched a lot of shallow movies just for amazing special effects giving me a nerdgasm and had nerdgasms with them. Suckerpunch just failed to merely deliver a nerdgasm for nice special effect, it was just too bad

[Mordokai]

OP: I politely disagree with your opinion and consider you woefully misinformed and mistaken, yet submit to your right for said opinion and recognize it as such.

[Madara]

I think its the best way to decide. You either love it or you hate it. I watched the movie twice(Second time because it beats twilight), and it took two times to start following things. It was a little inceptionish and the Dream within a Dream(Brothel) within a Reality(Asylem) just didn't work. If they had kept it to the Brothel as the imaginary world, I could've followed, but they over did it.

My friend however, loved it because of the action movie they had prepared to see. In the end, I guess I've read too much TV Tropes, and it seemed like a dry action movie with one attempt to spice it up(I.E. the dream world). While the action scenes made me happy, and I don't regret seeing it, there are much better options.

[BRC]

I'm confused at your actual goal when you decided to watch this movie. Because if you thought you were watching "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest", then you were mistaken, and you'd get zero sympathy from anyone. If you just wanted to watch a flick with "orcs, dragons, zombies, and WW1, with chicks"... then that's what you got. That's what the entire movie trailer showed, no false advertising here. Where's the complaint?

The complaint is that there was no real tension with those orcs, dragons, and WWI zombies. Even the most gratuitous action scenes in the stupidest films usually have context or tension involved, some idea of the stakes at hand. I mean, it was very nice to look at, but it all seemed empty and meaningless.



While we say that the movie tries for deep themes, we never said it worked, or that it made the movie better. Most of us have said it was tried. Who cares if it failed? The orcs and dragons worked for most of us.
I care, because I'm watching a movie. If it tries to do something and fails, that makes it not a good movie. The action scenes were visually impressive, but they were not impressive in any other way.
They were not gripping, things were so disconnected from reality, the girl's abilities so overwhelming, that I neither felt there was any chance of them losing (There never is, but usually I can trick myself into thinking that), nor saw a reason to care if they won.
They were not impressive, when James Bond beats up three goons, part of you still says "Man, James Bond is one awesome dude", even though you know it was all staged, you know he would win, you know it's James Bond, and beating up goons is what he does.


Saying that "It was just about Orks and Robots" dosn't mean we get to ignore the rest of the experience. Imagine that you go to a restaurant and sit down. They take an hour before they ask for your order, and two hours before they bring you your food. When the food does get there the waiter smashes the plate over your head and you have to eat whatever food fell on the table. Two hours later they bring you desert, and the desert is really good. Do you walk out and say "Man, that was an amazing restaurant, because the desert was good".

We're not talking about Sucker Punch's action scenes, we're talking about Sucker Punch as a film, the entire film.



The important thing, for me, was that it wasn't misogynist. Because that would have lowered the entertainment value of the entertaining parts. And, this movie was not misogynistic.
I agree that it wasn't misogynistic, but I like to think we can set our standards higher than "Was not actively offensive".

[Madara]

I think its the best way to decide. You either love it or you hate it. I watched the movie twice(Second time because it beats twilight), and it took two times to start following things. It was a little inceptionish and the Dream within a Dream(Brothel) within a Reality(Asylem) just didn't work. If they had kept it to the Brothel as the imaginary world, I could've followed, but they over did it.

My friend however, loved it because of the action movie they had prepared to see. In the end, I guess I've read too much TV Tropes, and it seemed like a dry action movie with one attempt to spice it up(I.E. the dream world). While the action scenes made me happy, and I don't regret seeing it, there are much better options.

[Tyndmyr]

Me too. I wasn't expecting a groundbreaking plot or well developed characters or anything. I was expecting a relatively fun action flick I could watch with my tongue jammed firmly into my cheek, and it delivered.

Yeah. I saw a preview with a dragon dogfighting a WW2 bomber. My expectations were "this'll look awesome!".

It delivered on this. Furthermore, it also had a fantastic soundtrack, a great feel to it, and avoided the usual tired cliches that most summer action movies devolve into.

[dehro]

OP: I politely disagree with your opinion and consider you woefully misinformed and mistaken, yet submit to your right for said opinion and recognize it as such.

I suppose we shall just have to agree to disagree. in this picture, I understand "mistaken"... I am however curious about why you say "misinformed".
would you care to elaborate?

[kyoryu]

The complaint is that there was no real tension with those orcs, dragons, and WWI zombies. Even the most gratuitous action scenes in the stupidest films usually have context or tension involved, some idea of the stakes at hand. I mean, it was very nice to look at, but it all seemed empty and meaningless.

It was. Deliberately. In much the same way that the people watching Babydoll "dance" (which was her therapy, remember) missed the importance of what she was actually doing. It was a distraction to us. We're the creepy old men in the theater.


I care, because I'm watching a movie. If it tries to do something and fails, that makes it not a good movie. The action scenes were visually impressive, but they were not impressive in any other way.
They were not gripping, things were so disconnected from reality, the girl's abilities so overwhelming, that I neither felt there was any chance of them losing (There never is, but usually I can trick myself into thinking that), nor saw a reason to care if they won.


They were designed as gratuitous fanservice. The fact that you found them unappealing because they weren't attached to the plot is probably a point in your favor.


I agree that it wasn't misogynistic, but I like to think we can set our standards higher than "Was not actively offensive".

It's actively not misogynistic. It is actively a critique of misogyny in science-fiction/fantasy fandom.

(again, the fact that this isn't very clear at all is one of the movie's failures)

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

It's actively not misogynistic. It is actively a critique of misogyny in science-fiction/fantasy fandom.

(again, the fact that this isn't very clear at all is one of the movie's failures)

I thought it was VERY clear, when I watched it. :smallconfused:

[Chen]

I'm actually mad at myself for having wasted time watching it.. which hasn't happened...since "lesbian vampire killers"

Sucker Punch had nice visuals, but I agree it was pretty bad. That said, Lesbian Vampire Killers was campy and actually pretty funny at some points. Definitely not a waste of time there.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I thought it was VERY clear, when I watched it. :smallconfused:

I wasn't able to quite figure it out until it was pointed out to me. *shrug* As everything about the movie, mileage varies.

[kyoryu]

I thought it was VERY clear, when I watched it. :smallconfused:

Apparently it wasn't to a large number of people.

[dehro]

It was. Deliberately. In much the same way that the people watching Babydoll "dance" (which was her therapy, remember) missed the importance of what she was actually doing. It was a distraction to us. We're the creepy old men in the theater.

They were designed as gratuitous fanservice. The fact that you found them unappealing because they weren't attached to the plot is probably a point in your favor.

It's actively not misogynistic. It is actively a critique of misogyny in science-fiction/fantasy fandom.

(again, the fact that this isn't very clear at all is one of the movie's failures)

I just don't think that a movie like sucker punch deserves this over-analysis of it's content.
What happened with it reeks of what certain phenomena in modern art seem to me: a bunch of critics who expound on the merits and intentions behind one item in a gallery for hours.. whilst the artist himself is sat there counting the money he's going to make when he finally sells them the rag he used to clean the floor with the previous evening.
in Italy there's a wonderful term for it which translates as behindology (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005391.html)..
maybe I'm too simple minded, or maybe, any attempt on deeper meaning was lost on me because it was so badly done. fanservice shouldn't take up more than half the movie and/or 90% of the viewer's attention...especially if it isn't conductive to anything that drives the plot and it's higher attempts at pushing forward a message..hidden or in plain view as it may be.

by applying sufficient amounts of "behindology" even porn movies and documentaries on butterflies can be ascribed intentions of social commentary.. I'm not buying it.
people tell me "this was just a load of fanservice for people who want to see guns, orcs and explosions, if you want more from it, it's the wrong movie"
when I ask that those elements be at least wrapped into a decent plot that make some sort of sense, people tell me that the movie actually does have sense and deeper meanings..which I just didn't get
.
which one is it? a tumble in a ditch full of orcs, or a movie carrying profound statements on the condition of geekdom, geek culture, humanity or what else have you?
it can't be both.. well.. it could, but..this one definitely didn't get anywhere near it

[Saph]

The action scenes were superb, but without context they were really just pretty music videos.

This is probably the best summary I've seen of the movie. The problem was that there just wasn't any depth there. There were several ways they could have developed the story or the symbolism, but instead they just kind of . . . left it.

[Omergideon]

I very much understand the dislike, or even hate, the movie gets. At first glance it is a mere FX fest with no more content to it than that. Personally I think it is all a comment on the theme of how people use their fantisies to escape reality and convince themselves of the importance of their efforts etc.

So the Bordello fantasy is to represent the utter hopelessness of the characters by placing them in perhaps the most possibly degrading situations you can imagine for them. The action scenes are the girls convincing themselves that what they are doing to escape is some epic, amazing mission that truly matters to the world. When in fact it is not. What in fantasy is Rocket (I think) dying to save a nation from utter destruction becomes in the bordello (closer to real) simply being stabbed in a dirty kitchen. Reality is less than the fantasy.

And we get the different styles of fantsay fight sequence because they represent the fantasies of the different characters for how they imagine themselves at the most awesome. I mean in each one the main focus (i.e. the girl who is doing the mission) is different I think. Also so we get more variety in the action sequences. But partly because......well who hasn't fantasised about being a samuarai, or saving the world, or fighting dragons etc.



But it is not too deep a film. A lot of it is a chance to show cool action sequences. And really I think, of all the directors in hollywood at the moment, Zack Snyder really gets action. When he films a fight scene it is a great mix of stylish and grounded. Almost every move a character does can be readily scene as purposeful. Each actor has a highly distinctive and in character fighting style. And the action is fast paced without becoming overly long and draining. And it is always well shot with the action clear and easy to follow.

Granted he does need to show some more of 1 on 1 fights with evenly matched opponents. But overall I think he is an incredible action director and much better than most guys out there.

[Devonix]

I just don't think that a movie like sucker punch deserves this over-analysis of it's content.
What happened with it reeks of what certain phenomena in modern art seem to me: a bunch of critics who expound on the merits and intentions behind one item in a gallery for hours.. whilst the artist himself is sat there counting the money he's going to make when he finally sells them the rag he used to clean the floor with the previous evening.
in Italy there's a wonderful term for it which translates as behindology (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005391.html)..
maybe I'm too simple minded, or maybe, any attempt on deeper meaning was lost on me because it was so badly done. fanservice shouldn't take up more than half the movie and/or 90% of the viewer's attention...especially if it isn't conductive to anything that drives the plot and it's higher attempts at pushing forward a message..hidden or in plain view as it may be.

by applying sufficient amounts of "behindology" even porn movies and documentaries on butterflies can be ascribed intentions of social commentary.. I'm not buying it.
people tell me "this was just a load of fanservice for people who want to see guns, orcs and explosions, if you want more from it, it's the wrong movie"
when I ask that those elements be at least wrapped into a decent plot that make some sort of sense, people tell me that the movie actually does have sense and deeper meanings..which I just didn't get
.
which one is it? a tumble in a ditch full of orcs, or a movie carrying profound statements on the condition of geekdom, geek culture, humanity or what else have you?
it can't be both.. well.. it could, but..this one definitely didn't get anywhere near it

I avoided watching reviews and other critiques for this movie as I do for most movies. The thoughts I cam up for it were my own though I later found people who had other different ideas and pointed out a few things I missed.

Later I saw some interviews and discovered it was very close to the intended theme of the movie and smiled.

Do I get that that people think the ideas weren't portrayed well enough yeah I get that. Mabye a bit too much fanservice sure but I think lessening it would have taken away something from the story.

A friend of mine said that he would have liked it better if they cut to the Real world more. I personally thought that would ruin the movie for me even if it would had made it better for him.

[MLai]

I personally had no problem putting the battles in the context of the bordello in the context of the real world. Therefore none of the scenes felt disconnected to me.

But then, I also grew up watching anime and playing video games. So my powers of association may be more awesome than yours.

[Tiki Snakes]

I personally had no problem putting the battles in the context of the bordello in the context of the real world. Therefore none of the scenes felt disconnected to me.

But then, I also grew up watching anime and playing video games. So my powers of association may be more awesome than yours.

Once again I feel the sad lack of a "Like this post" button. :smallsmile:

I enjoyed the structure, with the increasingly dissasociated levels of reality and metaphor, nested dreams and so on. I'm not even sure, at this point, if we can actually with any honesty say that even the 'Asylum' level was definately the real world, or that the deeper, more fantastical sequences weren't just as legitimate.

It's entirely possible that the whole thing was metaphorical and we never saw the real world at any point in the film, or that everything we saw was real and actually happened in some strange nested universe.

And yeah, I think it is possible to have a deliberately fanservicey, flashy trashy romp have actual depth and content and so on. I think this film managed it, though that's not to say it's an amazing masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination.

[Oindoth]

I thought it was painfully obvious that the "cinematic" action scenes were (escapist) dramatizations of the characters' actual, real-life escape goals. Meaning there was a significant chance of failure each time, and they did (or at least almost did) fail at getting the knife if I recall correctly.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

I just don't think that a movie like sucker punch deserves this over-analysis of it's content.
What happened with it reeks of what certain phenomena in modern art seem to me: a bunch of critics who expound on the merits and intentions behind one item in a gallery for hours.. whilst the artist himself is sat there counting the money he's going to make when he finally sells them the rag he used to clean the floor with the previous evening.


I'm gonna guess you don't like modern art :smalltongue:

[kyoryu]

I just don't think that a movie like sucker punch deserves this over-analysis of it's content.
What happened with it reeks of what certain phenomena in modern art seem to me: a bunch of critics who expound on the merits and intentions behind one item in a gallery for hours.. whilst the artist himself is sat there counting the money he's going to make when he finally sells them the rag he used to clean the floor with the previous evening.
in Italy there's a wonderful term for it which translates as behindology (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005391.html)..
maybe I'm too simple minded, or maybe, any attempt on deeper meaning was lost on me because it was so badly done. fanservice shouldn't take up more than half the movie and/or 90% of the viewer's attention...especially if it isn't conductive to anything that drives the plot and it's higher attempts at pushing forward a message..hidden or in plain view as it may be.


The bit about us being the "dirty old men in the theater", and it being a reflection on how fandom treats women is actually from an interview with Snyder.

Again, I think the movie failed in clearly expressing its themes, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

[VanBuren]

The only thing I can say about Sucker Punch is that I paid for a ticket to go see it, and that I wish I could take that back.

And no, I didn't go in expecting a deep, thought-provoking movie. I expected mindless action, and I still felt cheated.

[Brumski]

+1 for suck

Action scenes are terrible, although they do look pretty. I don't care to elaborate, but in rl I changed atleast two peoples minds after they told me they thought it was awesome, and I explained how they were wrong.

[GolemsVoice]

Action scenes are terrible, although they do look pretty. I don't care to elaborate, but in rl I changed atleast two peoples minds after they told me they thought it was awesome, and I explained how they were wrong.

Because obviously anyone not sharing your opinion is wrong, no?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Because obviously anyone not sharing your opinion is wrong, no?

Nah, see, obviously this movie is OBJECTIVELY bad. :smallsigh:

[MLai]

The action scenes in this movie are actually pretty damn good. Unrealistic, sure. But good.

As a point of reference... You want bad action scenes? Watch any Mortal Kombat movie. Or the Dead Or Alive movie. Or the King Of Fighters movie. Or Street Fighter.

[Brumski]

Because obviously anyone not sharing your opinion is wrong, no?

That would be the joke, yes :smallsigh:

actions scenes were pretty, but the fight choreography is bad, maybe that would be a more specific way of putting it.

[Psyren]

I liked it. Sort of "Inception by way of Grindhouse?" Maybe?

Anyway, MovieBob nailed it again (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/2962-Sucker-Punch) from where I'm sitting.

[Tiki Snakes]

That's a pretty good review. I also like the idea of "Inception by way of Grindhouse". It's a good line.

[Karoht]

That would be the joke, yes :smallsigh:

actions scenes were pretty, but the fight choreography is bad, maybe that would be a more specific way of putting it.

I do agree that the choreography could have been better. No arguement there. It did make the action scenes a bit underwhelming.
At the same point, I actually think they intentionally toned down the choreography because they wanted the sensationalism of the scene to be the focus. IE-Orcs, Dragons, etc.
Had the film had a higher level of choreography, that would have been better, but again might have robbed the focus of those scenes. Hard to say if they made the right or wrong move here. But if people are bored by the action scenes, that says plenty. This might just be me, but at no point did the film match the adrenaline level that the trailer implied.

On the other hand, the castle scene is still my favorite sequence.
"Oh, you're Orcs with melee weapons. Cute. I have an assault rifle. Ta ta."
Combined with the Bomber VS Dragon parts I was still pretty pleased with that whole section.

The more cerebral parts of the film between action sequences, I for one enjoyed. The fact that they don't ever show Babydoll dance was probably for the best. Leaving it to the imagination was a clever choice.

[Mordokai]

I suppose we shall just have to agree to disagree. in this picture, I understand "mistaken"... I am however curious about why you say "misinformed".
would you care to elaborate?

Mostly so I could sound more like an annoying and obnoxious british gentleman with overinflated ego. And what's better for that than using a lot of big words? :smallbiggrin:

Really, it's pretty much the same, just said a little differently.

[dehro]

I'm gonna guess you don't like modern art :smalltongue:

who, me? whatever makes you say that?:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
truth be told, some of it, I like..but most of it, I don't.


Mostly so I could sound more like an annoying and obnoxious british gentleman with overinflated ego. And what's better for that than using a lot of big words? :smallbiggrin:

Really, it's pretty much the same, just said a little differently.
you have a point fair enough

[Omergideon]

That would be the joke, yes :smallsigh:

actions scenes were pretty, but the fight choreography is bad, maybe that would be a more specific way of putting it.

What weaknesses do you refer to? Because as I recall Snyder does excellent fight scenes that don't rely on flips and the like to be exciting (though they do happen). And this was no exception. The greatest strength to me is that every move his characters make is one that makes sense. It may make them less visually varied perhaps, but makes them more fun to me. In the same way I prefer a good grounded MMA fight to a "flying around the ring like a bird" wrestling match.

[GolemsVoice]

That would be the joke, yes

Enough people on the internet use this as their one and only argument, so you'll forgive me for taking this at face value.

[Karoht]

What weaknesses do you refer to? Because as I recall Snyder does excellent fight scenes that don't rely on flips and the like to be exciting (though they do happen). And this was no exception. The greatest strength to me is that every move his characters make is one that makes sense. It may make them less visually varied perhaps, but makes them more fun to me. In the same way I prefer a good grounded MMA fight to a "flying around the ring like a bird" wrestling match.The fights didn't need to be flashier, just a faster tempo would have been nice. A slightly higher skill level demonstrated would have been a bonus as well, but not necessary, as the skill level demonstrated was quick and efficient, much like a commando team, which was sort of the vibe I think Snyder was going for. Really, just a faster tempo would have helped tremendously.

[jidasfire]

Sucker Punch would have made a very entertaining music video. It's flashy and stylistic, but the truth is, that's not enough to carry it as a full-on story. Drawing it out beyond 5 minutes or so gives the audience too much time to think about how there isn't much going on as far as story and character, and the fact that the symbolism either requires a codebook to figure out or means nothing but what the audience guesses it means. I'm also not really a fan of the faux-ironic exploitation that dresses girls in pointlessly sexy outfits to show how dressing girls in sexy outfits is wrong. I mean, you could simply not show them that way in the first place, but I guess that would get rid of the people who come just for the sexy girls. The movie stretches in a lot of directions, but doesn't really reach anything substantial in any of them.

[MLai]

I have no problem with you saying the movie isn't good. But to say the action scenes aren't technically good is being disingenuous. I watch lots of action movies, from technically bad ones like Van Damme movies to technically good ones like Donnie Yen movies.
I never expected the girls to move like Donnie Yen, just like I never hated on Matrix 1 because the American actors can't fight like their Asian choreographers hoped. So, excluding the limitations of the actors/actresses, I felt the fight scenes in Suckerpunch were quite competent.

[GolemsVoice]

Sucker Punch would have made a very entertaining music video. It's flashy and stylistic, but the truth is, that's not enough to carry it as a full-on story. Drawing it out beyond 5 minutes or so gives the audience too much time to think about how there isn't much going on as far as story and character, and the fact that the symbolism either requires a codebook to figure out or means nothing but what the audience guesses it means.

But apparently, a lot of people DID think about the movie and came to satisfying and complex explanations.

[Omergideon]

The fights didn't need to be flashier, just a faster tempo would have been nice. A slightly higher skill level demonstrated would have been a bonus as well, but not necessary, as the skill level demonstrated was quick and efficient, much like a commando team, which was sort of the vibe I think Snyder was going for. Really, just a faster tempo would have helped tremendously.

At times a fast tempo is good (I would say slowing things down a bit when characters duel is a good idea a lot of the time, but massive 1 on many or many on many fights work better faster), but I thought they were finely paced here. And skill is a lot more than how impressive what you do it. Skill is about how well you do the few moves you need to just as much. I would say many boxers with extremely limited movesets are much more skilled fighters than a lot of martial artist who can throw out much faster, flashier, varied or more gymnastic moves. A great fighter is more about timing and moving at the right time with the right technique.

And I thought the fights had good tempo. In one or two cases they are slightly long (the orc fight was slightly long, though the changing up of out focus and the added dragon scene were good breaks).

However as far as skill goes, it may be a bit much to expect actors with little to no training to move like trained fighters do. But at the same time if we think it presented limits on the quality of the fight scenes it is legit to mention it. It is too much to expect Christopher Lambert to move like Adrian Paul in Highlander. But the job of a good choreographer is to work around that and incorporate the actors limits into the design of the fights. Hence simple moves timed right often being better In Highlander for the first movie they did that very well, as they did in Star Wars most of the time.

But I thought the choerographers did make sure the girls moves were always what they could do, and so did a great job making them look skilled.


Of course there is the inherent problem that it is easier to make a male actors moves look like they carry weight than a female one, or a large male than a small one. But I think they mostly overcame it here. (Guns and weapons help a lot)

[MLai]

I was actually pretty impressed with how well the girls moved. They were choreographed well, and within their limits.
I'm talking about the parts where no wires were blatantly involved.

[pita]

I found the entire movie utterly unengaging on any level. The action scenes were pretty, but they felt dull, for the same reason that I'm not thrilled by the action I see in animation shows. The action needs to look real, and I didn't get that here.
The entire movie just felt like an extra-length music video. I generally don't watch music videos.
I've played out my hate for it. I'd have more to say, but this movie has gone from "This is the worst freaking movie I have ever seen and I have lost all hope for Zack Snyder. The next movie of his I watch will be one I hear recommended from everyone I trust before I bother with it" to "This is a pretty terrible flick. Oh well."