1st Level Sorcerer help- 3.5

[C_Lee_B]

I am playing a sorcerer in an Age of Worms game, and I want to create a metamagic build. I see the feats that would be taken at higher levels, but I can't find many low level metamagic feats (or feats such as arcane thesis or practical metamagic) that will still be useful later. DM says that there won't be enough down time to retrain, so that's out of the picture. Access to most supplements, but Incantatrix is banned (that's all so far). One flaw is allowed, no pesky multiclassing penalties. Any advise?

[Flickerdart]

Easy Metamagic (Dragon 325) has 1st level-friendly prerequisites, and applies a -1 discount to any one metamagic feat you know. If the campaign will go up to level 6, find a way to get the Dragonblood subtype (Silverblood Human, Dragonborn, Spellscale) so that you can pick up Practical Metamagic which does the same thing.

For the feats themselves, Fell Drain is a very popular one, Empower is nice, Extend is good on buffs and summons. What exactly do you want to do with your metamagic, though? Blast dudes with sick orbs? Enervate the pants off of people you don't like? Sling around Quickened spells like it's a 15 minute workday?

[C_Lee_B]

Thanks for pointing out easy metamagic. I'm honestly not what I want to do. At first, I was thinking enervation, but what feats would I take at level 1 for that? Also, is arcane thesis a good idea at level 1, or is it better to wait on that until I can pick better spells? If not arcane thesis, would it be worth it to use an easy metamagic Fell Drain Acid Splash, or whatever?

[dextercorvia]

Thanks for pointing out easy metamagic. I'm honestly not what I want to do. At first, I was thinking enervation, but what feats would I take at level 1 for that? Also, is arcane thesis a good idea at level 1, or is it better to wait on that until I can pick better spells?

You can't take Arcane Thesis until level 6, and depending on what you want to thesis, you might need to wait until level 9.

[Acanous]

That depends again on what you intend to do with this sorceror.
Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) has been shown to be decently game-breaking in it's own right, when combined with the right metamagics.

[C_Lee_B]

Oh, wow. I can't believe I missed that. What would be an ideal spell to take it for? The campaign will continue to high levels.

[C_Lee_B]

That depends again on what you intend to do with this sorceror.
Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) has been shown to be decently game-breaking in it's own right, when combined with the right metamagics.

What metamagics?

[dextercorvia]

Orb of Fire (good rider, Searing spell helps with rampant immunity)

Enervation (lots of stuff is immune, but you instagib if it isn't)

Wings of Flurry (AoE, little is immune to Force, avoids allies)

[Flickerdart]

Arcane Thesis has a prerequisite of 9 skill ranks, so you're not going to be getting that until 6th. By that time you should probably be sure about what you want to do.

Fell Drain Sonic Snap is generally the way to go if you want to abuse that one. The biggest problems are going to be enemies with multiple HDs, and figuring out what to do with all the wights you're creating.

[C_Lee_B]

Arcane Thesis has a prerequisite of 9 skill ranks, so you're not going to be getting that until 6th. By that time you should probably be sure about what you want to do.

Fell Drain Sonic Snap is generally the way to go if you want to abuse that one. The biggest problems are going to be enemies with multiple HDs, and figuring out what to do with all the wights you're creating.

"If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies." Wights?

[fryplink]

"If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies." Wights?

I think the Wight entry in the MM says that humaniods that die from negative levels rise again in 1d4 days as a wight

[C_Lee_B]

What role does metamagic best augment? eg. blasting, buffing, battlefield control, etc.

[fryplink]

What role does metamagic best augment? ei. blasting, buffing, battlefield control, etc.

While I'm sure someone will prove me wrong, I'd say its a wash between blasting and buffing, with battlefield control spells not gaining as much from Metamagic (they still gain a lot, just not AS much). Famously the Twice Betrayer abuses Persist half to death, and damage multipliers can wreak. Hello Occular Twin split-ray energy admixtured maximized empowered lesser orb of fire. Obviously you'd need Metamagic Specialist (you probably don't have feats for Rapid Metamagic) so that you can Quicken True Strike.

[chaotician375]

I agree with fryplink, though I don't have too much sorcerer experience personally. Another route that might serve well is a summoner/buff build, I'm currently in a game with a lvl sorcerer who summons celestial what have you and gives them ranged attacks that works quite well especialy considering the squishy of a low level game.

[dextercorvia]

While I'm sure someone will prove me wrong, I'd say its a wash between blasting and buffing, with battlefield control spells not gaining as much from Metamagic (they still gain a lot, just not AS much). Famously the Twice Betrayer abuses Persist half to death, and damage multipliers can wreak. Hello Occular Twin split-ray energy admixtured maximized empowered lesser orb of fire. Obviously you'd need Metamagic Specialist (you probably don't have feats for Rapid Metamagic) so that you can Quicken True Strike.

I think this is pretty correct. I think that BFC and Blasting benefit the most at low levels, with BFC losing out to persist shenanigans, bringing buffing up. The important thing with a Sorcerer, is you don't have the feat slots to do all of it.

For Blasting, you want: Twin(or Split Ray), Empower, Maximize, Quicken, probably Searing spell, and Arcane Thesis on your favorite, along with Easy on Twin, and maybe Maximize and some 0 level adjustment to bring it down.

For BFC, you can pick up Shape Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, and enjoy megagrease. But, later on, you are still doing the same thing, just on different spells. (And sometimes the same ones)

[Psyren]

I think the Wight entry in the MM says that humaniods that die from negative levels rise again in 1d4 days as a wight

Actually, it's in the DMG (p. 293) under "special abilities." It's also on the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)


A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

[C_Lee_B]

I think this is pretty correct. I think that BFC and Blasting benefit the most at low levels, with BFC losing out to persist shenanigans, bringing buffing up. The important thing with a Sorcerer, is you don't have the feat slots to do all of it.

For Blasting, you want: Twin(or Split Ray), Empower, Maximize, Quicken, probably Searing spell, and Arcane Thesis on your favorite, along with Easy on Twin, and maybe Maximize and some 0 level adjustment to bring it down.

For BFC, you can pick up Shape Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, and enjoy megagrease. But, later on, you are still doing the same thing, just on different spells. (And sometimes the same ones)

Should I pick either BFC or Blasting, or spread between the two? Also, there is still the problem of levels 1-3, when even with easy metamagic, I can only apply metamagic to level 0 spells...

[KillianHawkeye]

What exactly do you want to do with your metamagic, though? Blast dudes with sick orbs? Enervate the pants off of people you don't like? Sling around Quickened spells like it's a 15 minute workday?

Charm person the pants off of people you REALLY like? :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

Should I pick either BFC or Blasting, or spread between the two? Also, there is still the problem of levels 1-3, when even with easy metamagic, I can only apply metamagic to level 0 spells...

You can Metamagic School Focus from level 1, but it stunts your growth later. (You are also limited to one school -- so pick a good one). Wizards get that one easier.

[C_Lee_B]

You can Metamagic School Focus from level 1, but it stunts your growth later. (You are also limited to one school -- so pick a good one). Wizards get that one easier.

Spell Focus prerequisite hurts, though. Is it worth it? If I did do it, conjuration seems like the best choice-orb spells, debuffs, etc.

[DeAnno]

Blaster builds are typically not very friendly in the very early levels, because you are focused on metamagic and that takes some time to set up. Is War Mage from Age of Mortals available? Without Incantatrix that is your best option and you should start eating the prereq feats now.

If War Mage isn't around either I would be a legit Kobold, taking Greater Reservoir at level 3 (it actually isn't too awful in and of itself at that point) and doing your Greater Rite at 6 HD for the extra spellcasting level (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). As for PRCs in that environment you are pretty boned, your best option might legitimately be Swiftblade (to 9) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), though that is pretty feat-eating too. The nice part about Kobold Rite + Swiftblade 9 though is you only lose 2 spell levels.

Other options which are probably allowed are Argent Savant and Arcane Devotee (PG to Faerun), which are 1 level dips, and Force Missile Mage (Drag Mag Compendium), which is highly dubious (pretty good if you do that WITH War Mage though). Fatespinner is chafe but it is cheap chafe. At the point you are dredging this sort of stuff your blaster is almost better off trying to guilt the DM into giving you Wizard bonus feats or PF bloodlines or something and staying mostly pure Sorc.

For your two 1st level spells known I'd say you should take a controlly spell (Sleep, Grease, whatever) and a blasty spell (Lesser Orb or Magic Missile probably). For your first level feat I would either take a prereq for your planned first PRC, or try to take Empower at 1 and Easy Empower at level 3 (this is sort of dubious in value because at level 3 Scorching Ray > all dpr).

If there's any of this that is banned by your DM or seems more or less attractive to you I could throw something more specific together, I have experience playing blaster Sorcs through many levels in one build.

[C_Lee_B]

War Mage should be available, I'll check with my DM at a more reasonable hour. I may be able to convince him to take away Weapon Focus as a prereq. I guess being a little behind at low levels isn't a huge deal, because the other party members should be able to pick up the slack. As long as the things I take will at least give me something now.
As for Swift Blade, the haste thing is a pain... Is it really worth it? I'll look into the other PRCs tomorrow, thanks for the suggestions. I probably can't guilt the DM, because the party is 2 tier 3s and a cleric controlled by a new player with no real sense of optimization. I'll check with the DM for adjusted prereqs.

By the way, thanks to all of you for the help. I think I'm going to retire for the night, but feel free to post more suggestions.

[gomipile]

Another good option is the sudden metamagic feats from complete Arcane. they are always useful, since they can be applied to your highest level of spell.

[DeAnno]

If War Mage is available then you should be fine, even with all the prereqs it is arguably as good as Incantatrix for straight blasting (remember you can take Weapon Focus: ranged spells, which is arguably worth something). If you do take War Mage, Force Missile Mage and a MM build is actually more viable both because you have lots of levels left, and because you already have the Combat Casting Prereq.

If you do go with Magic Missile as your primary form of offense, Hail of Stones (SC) and Acid Rain (HoB) are good complementary spells (you want something that is not Force, is area, and does not require targetting/vision).

[Coidzor]

The spell decreases in usefulness as you level, but Power Word Pain is a death sentence for almost everything you can cast it on ...eventually... for a number of levels. I believe that one's from races of the dragon.

As for a metamagic blasting build... Have you ever heard of the (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180249)Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer?pg=1)? He's an example build, high-powered but not outright Theoretical Optimization IIRC, of a blaster who does his blasting well and always delivers his damage.


The biggest problems are going to be enemies with multiple HDs, and figuring out what to do with all the wights you're creating.

Isn't the usual response to collect the bodies and be ready to kill them when they awaken for extra XP? Though I suppose coming up with a relatively straightforward and reasonably safe way to do that which also would give XP constitutes a challenge in and of itself.

Alternatively, destroying the body should prevent it from rising as a wight, or at least, it'll be a rather unimpressive wight.

IIRC, isn't there a template that's applied to things that can't become wights if they would rise as wights if they were eligible?

[jywu98]

You should go Dragonwrought (Desert Kobold if allowed) for Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. That +1 to effective sorcerer level helps a lot. If your feat slots are full take a flaw (like murky-eyed or inattentive).

You could also do that and take Loredrake for a total of +3 to sorcerer level, but obviously your DM won't allow that.:smallwink:

Anyways, here's a guide that might help (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871358/Short_Sorcerer_Handbook)

[C_Lee_B]

Hey, Jing :smallwink: Why are you so intent on Kobold? That guide is actually not that helpful. What book is silverblood human?

[jywu98]

Hey, Jing :smallwink: Why are you so intent on Kobold? That guide is actually not that helpful. What book is silverblood human?

Can't seem to find Silverblood, but you could always use Draconic.

[DeAnno]

Hey, Jing :smallwink: Why are you so intent on Kobold? That guide is actually not that helpful. What book is silverblood human?

Silverblood Human is Dragon Magic page 6. Basically if you are desperate for more feat space you usually want Silverblood Human, but if you have a feat to spare and/or are desperate to recover lost caster levels you want Kobold + Greater Rite. Games with flaws allowed or other extra feats houseruled tend to encourage deciding on Kobold.

Kobolds are also good for being Small with Slight Build, which is a very handy +8 to hide, +1 to attacks/AC from small, and a free martial weapon proficiency in Picks to qualify for Abj Champ or Swiftblade (and of course there is also Dragonwrought Loredrake but that's just silly).

[ahenobarbi]

Hey, Jing :smallwink: Why are you so intent on Kobold?

Probably because they make great sorcerers. Take a look at dragonwrought Kobold:
- Be venerable, you don't get penalties for aging but you get bonuses.
- Take 7 levels of sorcerer (take substitution levels but do not sacrifice spell slots to get spell-like ability). This will give you 1 extra spell (you will want to change them, but extra spells known is great for sorcerer).
- Take Greater rite of Draconic Passage (cast as if you had 1 more level of sorcerer...).
- Take Dracolexi PrC. You don't need to worry about prerequisites, because "Dragons qualify for any (...) PrCs (...) that require dragonblood subtype" ("Races of the Dragon, p. 4). This gives you bonus spells (even some 6 and 8 level!). You can use spells you got from this PrC or swap them later :smallcool:
You loose one spell progression level, but that's not a problem if you took Greater rite for draconic passage.

So you get a few of bonus spells known and +3 to all mental stats (and spell-like ability 1st level spell 3/day.. which is also good).

[Coidzor]

Add in Loredrake if the campaign is high powered enough and you've got 3 levels of sorcerer casting you can just set on fire in order to qualify for PrCs or gish it up.

[dextercorvia]

Forum glitch. I couldn't see Coidzor's post.

[kardar233]

Add in Loredrake if the campaign is high powered enough and you've got 3 levels of sorcerer casting you can just set on fire in order to qualify for PrCs or gish it up.

Go to Swiftblade 10 for lol-Time Stop?