Xykon's inmunities...

[Krim]

Well, after evaluationg Xykon's fights so far, including SoD ones, I have quite an interesting thought (or not) about what can possibly destroy Xykon. Let's recap:

1) Liches are inmune to electricity, poison, diseases and cold. That takes a few spells out of the table, like Lighting Bolt and Cone of Cold.

2) Xykon carries an item that makes him inmune to fire damage, as shown Vs Darth V. This takes more spells out of the table, like Fireball, Meteor Shower, etc.

3) In SoD, Xykon carried a ring that makes him inmune to positive energy attacks. Considering that a failed FORT save, one for which Xykon's bonus is +10, tops, againts a Heal leaves Xykon VERY low in hit points, it is only reasonable to asume he is still carrying it.

This leaves very few spells useful againts him. Searing light can do some damage, and Sunbeam poses extreme danger to him if used correctly...too bad none in the Order can cast it! Other spells, like Acid Arrow, will only do minor amount of damage.

So...What is probably the best way to kill Mr X?. Well, much to Eugene's dismay, I honestly think that the answer is beating him with a sharp piece of metal. Sure, you need to protect the guy carrying the sword againts his magic. Sure, you need to make sure X doesn't fly away. But both the rules and the sense of drama point in that direction. And wouldn't it be a delicious irony? As "Lich pwned by Fighter. In your face, Eugene".

[zimmerwald1915]

This leaves very few spells useful againts him. Searing light can do some damage, and Sunbeam poses extreme danger to him if used correctly...too bad none in the Order can cast it! Other spells, like Acid Arrow, will only do minor amount of damage.
Sunbeam's a Druid-only spell to be sure, unless it exists somewhere in Durkon's strange domain list. Sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm), however, is an eight-level Wizard spell with a similar effect. I doubt very much that V actually knows this spell at the moment. She can, however, cast eighth-level spells, and has used Sunburst against Xykon before. Among all the spells she employed against Xykon, Sunburst was the most effective, though admittedly that's not a terribly high bar. With this in mind, it is not inconceivable that she would research it and scribe it upon level-up to 16. As you point out below, it is narratively inconceivable that Xykon could be blasted to death (destruction). Nor is it required by the narrative that this spell be researched, prepared, or utilized again at any point. But it's just as likely that Roy, who has demonstrated extensive knowledge of spellcraft and a tendency to seize any advantage against Xykon he can, will demand such research, preparation, and use.


So...What is probably the best way to kill Mr X?. Well, much to Eugene's dismay, I honestly think that the answer is beating him with a sharp piece of metal. Sure, you need to protect the guy carrying the sword againts his magic. Sure, you need to make sure X doesn't fly away. But both the rules and the sense of drama point in that direction. And wouldn't it be a delicious irony? As "Lich pwned by Fighter. In your face, Eugene".
If we're turning to pieces of metal, said piece of metal would ideally be blunt. But yes. If anyone's going to land the blow that destroys Xykon, it will be Roy. Or Redcloak. Was this in doubt?

[KillItWithFire]

Dorukan's abjurations did a pretty good job the first time around.

[Shreav]

If anyone's going to land the blow that destroys Xykon, it will be Roy. Or Redcloak. Was this in doubt?

Surely at least some people are predicting that it will be the MitD?

[zimmerwald1915]

Surely at least some people are predicting that it will be the MitD?
Nah, MitD kills Redcloak after Redcloak destroys Xykon, while the Order looks on, bemused. He then wanders off to look for O-Chul, tossing them an offhand remark about a soul-hidey-place. Roy figures out he means the phylactery, finds it on Redcloak's corpse, and smashes it.

[Chess Tyrant]

Sunburst works pretty well against undead, and it could be devastating if V picked up a greater metamagic rod (probably maximize spell). Pretty anticlimactic, though - my best guess is still some combination of Roy and Redcloak, possibly the Snarl.

[MaximKat]

What about SONIC!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)?

[JSSheridan]

Are Haley's attacks with that longbow considered Cold damage?

[MReav]

Are Haley's attacks with that longbow considered Cold damage?

The bonus damage is.

[iTookUrNick]

a failed FORT save, one for which Xykon's bonus is +10, tops, againts a Heal leaves Xykon VERY low in hit points, [/SPOILER]


Heal, despite being somehow counterintuitive, asks for a Will save, Xykon's best one. But then as you said he has/d that ring.


What about SONIC!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)?

Win!

[Once&FutureKing]

Neither the frigid cold of the deepest space, nor the blazing heat of the brightest star, shall harm his shielded body.

Only plot shall harm him. :smallsigh:

[Myou]

Clearly Xykon has DR -/Roy.

[blazingshadow]

throw him into a gate again or better yet, turn him into a god and have the snarl kill him. that would do the trick since the snarl is extra powerful against gods and i suppose that all gods are at least the same level as xykon

[Castamir]

So in the end, you need druid spells like Shillelagh :smalltongue:

(no, not literally, it's not a spell anyone above level 1 would use... but it's the concept that counts. And shillelagh law is all the rage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegan%27s_Wake).)

[Kish]

throw him into a gate again
He was blown up by Dorukan's ward on his Gate, not by an inherent feature of all the Gates.

[MReav]

throw him into a gate again or better yet, turn him into a god and have the snarl kill him. that would do the trick since the snarl is extra powerful against gods and i suppose that all gods are at least the same level as xykon

In Deities and Demigods, the average god had 20 outsider Hit Dice and 20 levels of two different classes, and Shojo's statement was that a mortal of equivalent level might have been more vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks. That's at least 60 HD plus a huge level adjustment for all the divine salient abilities, probably meaning that a level 80 mortal might be less affected by the Snarl, while Xykon's ECL I believe caps out at 37 (due to the Lich's own level adjustment).

tl:dr: Currently, Xykon currently is more vulnerable against the Snarl than a god would be because he is much, much less powerful than a god.

[cloudland]

I might have to dispute the idea that he's immune to fire from his item. My guess is that the item let him immune to area of effect spell, hence any single target spell still get him, even if it's fire.

[suszterpatt]

I might have to dispute the idea that he's immune to fire from his item. My guess is that the item let him immune to area of effect spell, hence any single target spell still get him, even if it's fire.
The exact wording is (emphasis by me): "If you're going to use area effect spells, craft yourself a magic item that makes you immune to that type of damage." So yeah, fire immunity.

[blazingshadow]

Currently, Xykon currently is more vulnerable against the Snarl than a god would be because he is much, much less powerful than a god.i believe that the Snarl is an abomination that can be killed just like anybody/anything else except that gods will have a harder time killing it. i do wonder if becoming a god gives you those extra levels as a perk of the ascension or is it that the Dark One and other ascended gods had to actually gain those levels before or after.

[Kish]

The exact wording is (emphasis by me): "If you're going to use area effect spells, craft yourself a magic item that makes you immune to that type of damage." So yeah, fire immunity.
He was also conspicuously not immune to Sunburst.

[Gray Mage]

I think a disintegrate spell has a good chance of taking care of him. He's an undead sorcerer, so his fort save should be pretty bad and a bunch of D12s with no con bonus for HP means his HP shouldn't be that better either. No worries about immunities either, since the damage is untyped.

Two of those or even an empowered version should be enough to take care of him. On a lucky roll, maybe even a normal one can kill him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think a disintegrate spell has a good chance of taking care of him. He's an undead sorcerer, so his fort save should be pretty bad and a bunch of D12s with no con bonus for HP means his HP shouldn't be that better either. No worries about immunities either, since the damage is untyped.

Two of those or even an empowered version should be enough to take care of him. On a lucky roll, maybe even a normal one can kill him.

The main issue against this course of action is his Touch AC. As an Epic level Sorcerer, I'd suspect its fairly high. That and the power of plot requires more effort than 2 spell combo.

[Gray Mage]

The main issue against this course of action is his Touch AC. As an Epic level Sorcerer, I'd suspect its fairly high. That and the power of plot requires more effort than 2 spell combo.

True, but ways to increase a ranged ray attack are pretty easy too. I mean, True Strike is a 1st level spell, 5th level if quickened. That's a handy +20 right out of the box.

But I agree, it'd be a big anti-climatic way to kill him.

[The Guardian]

Xykon has already beaten at least three epic-level spellcasters. I think it's fairly clear that direct magic is not the way the battle will be won.

Also, is there not a limit to how many magic rings you can wear? I know that can be extended, but do we really think Xykon would waste an epic feat on that? He's got at least four epic feats that we know about off-hand: Epic Spellcasting plus three Extended Spell Capacities (to get a 12th level spell slot for maximized energy drain).

He has the ring that protects him from probably fire damage. He has the positive energy ring. Are there any others we've heard about?

Also, even going with the average, he's got in the area of 180 hit points. However major characters in OotS seem to take a lot of punishment and may be getting max HP per level, which puts him up over 300 most likely.

Finally... we've seen Xykon get very badly hurt three times, and badly hurt twice. The three very badly hurts were all physical damage - twice by Roy and once by Soon.

The Order's absolute best bet to beat him is quite possibly an antimagic field, or a bunch of greater dispel magics hoping at least one goes through and negates his flight + defensive rings. Take away his magical advantage and let Roy do his job (maybe with Giant Durkon).

[orrion]

In Deities and Demigods, the average god had 20 outsider Hit Dice and 20 levels of two different classes, and Shojo's statement was that a mortal of equivalent level might have been more vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks. That's at least 60 HD plus a huge level adjustment for all the divine salient abilities, probably meaning that a level 80 mortal might be less affected by the Snarl, while Xykon's ECL I believe caps out at 37 (due to the Lich's own level adjustment).

tl:dr: Currently, Xykon currently is more vulnerable against the Snarl than a god would be because he is much, much less powerful than a god.

Actually, Shojo's statement was that an equal mortal wouldn't have been as vulnerable. It's true that nobody is near equal to a god, though.


Also, I see no reason V wouldn't eventually get Sunburst, seeing as how it's evocation, V is evocation specialized and Xykon is a lich.

[The Linker]

The exact wording is (emphasis by me): "If you're going to use area effect spells, craft yourself a magic item that makes you immune to that type of damage." So yeah, fire immunity.

That's no proof in itself. He could be very easily referring to AoE as a type of damage.

I believe it would be improper grammar to refer to fire damage in that sentence, actually. 'That' has no referenced subject it could be indicating except 'area of effect spells'. If he clarified 'fire area of effect spells', or 'their damage type', then I'd agree. With the exact wording given, however, I'm prone to think he was referring to AoE.

[MaximKat]

Can you really have an immunity to all AoE attacks? Isn't this a bit too much?

[MReav]

Actually, Shojo's statement was that an equal mortal wouldn't have been as vulnerable. It's true that nobody is near equal to a god, though.

That's what I said. I was making a point that Xykon would be less effective than a god vs the Snarl because he is nowhere near the same level as a god as a counterpoint to someone claiming that to destroy Xykon they should turn him into a deity then send him against the Snarl.

[The Linker]

Can you really have an immunity to all AoE attacks? Isn't this a bit too much?

Maybe, but he did say he crafted it. Overpowered for some adventurer to find, but maybe not for an epic-level sorcerer willing to spend his time, effort and money specifically creating this item.

[Baphomet]

Maybe, but he did say he crafted it. Overpowered for some adventurer to find, but maybe not for an epic-level sorcerer willing to spend his time, effort and money specifically creating this item.

Just a ring of fire immunity qualifies as "overpowered for some adventurer to find", and would be something only craftable by an epic-level spellcaster; it requires the "forge epic ring" feat, which requires 35 spellcraft and knowledge:arcana. Likewise, I've never heard of a ring that protects from all positive energy attacks, but I imagine its prerequisites would be even higher. The requirements to forge a ring that protects against all AoE spells would be colossal, if it would even be possible in the first place.

Not to poop on your theory or anything, but the fact that xykon is even capable of making the fire immunity ring forced me to rethink how high-level he must be; he's quite a bit beyond the minimum to qualify as "epic".

EDIT: I actually headed over to the class and level geekery thread to see if they'd talked about the immunity to fire, and I see it's a more difficult topic than I initially assumed, and it didn't have to be a ring. My mistake.

[The Linker]

Just a ring of fire immunity qualifies as "overpowered for some adventurer to find", and would be something only craftable by an epic-level spellcaster; it requires the "forge epic ring" feat, which requires 35 spellcraft and knowledge:arcana. Likewise, I've never heard of a ring that protects from all positive energy attacks, but I imagine its prerequisites would be even higher. The requirements to forge a ring that protects against all AoE spells would be colossal, if it would even be possible in the first place.

Not to poop on your theory or anything, but the fact that xykon is even capable of making the fire immunity ring forced me to rethink how high-level he must be; he's quite a bit beyond the minimum to qualify as "epic".

Hmm. Well, I will certainly defer to superior knowledge of these sort of things.

[Once&FutureKing]

Yeh, it's pretty obvious Xykon's alot stronger than first thought, to be able to craft such an item (ring or not), the plot just writes him up as stronger and stronger as necessary. At this rate he'll be level 50 by the comic's end.

[Kish]

Hmm. Well, I will certainly defer to superior knowledge of these sort of things.
Again, he was clearly not immune to Sunburst, so he wasn't immune to "all AoE spells."

[The Linker]

Apologies. I was not aware Sunburst was an AoE spell.

[arclight]

Can you really have an immunity to all AoE attacks? Isn't this a bit too much?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not a first or second edition spell called safeguard (or something similar) that prevented your and your allies from being harmed by your spells? It has already been established that there is some bleed-through from earlier editions, so would a ring of safeguard be inconceivable?

[ti'esar]

I wish people would stop talking about "the power of plot" like this. Xykon's by no means indestructible, though I am pretty sure Rich has revised his level upward once or twice.

[veti]

Can you really have an immunity to all AoE attacks? Isn't this a bit too much?

'Improved Evasion' comes close, if you've got a good Reflex save.

But Xykon (almost certainly) hasn't got a good Reflex save. And anyway, you can't use it when held/grappled/otherwise impeded (which Xykon was, at the time he mentioned it), so that's out.

[blazingshadow]

there is a ring that protects the user from your own spells. it is normally used so that the big stupid fighter can hit the enemy while the wizard bombards the battlefield

[Krim]

Xykon has already beaten at least three epic-level spellcasters. I think it's fairly clear that direct magic is not the way the battle will be won.

Also, is there not a limit to how many magic rings you can wear? I know that can be extended, but do we really think Xykon would waste an epic feat on that? He's got at least four epic feats that we know about off-hand: Epic Spellcasting plus three Extended Spell Capacities (to get a 12th level spell slot for maximized energy drain).

He has the ring that protects him from probably fire damage. He has the positive energy ring. Are there any others we've heard about?

Also, even going with the average, he's got in the area of 180 hit points. However major characters in OotS seem to take a lot of punishment and may be getting max HP per level, which puts him up over 300 most likely.

Finally... we've seen Xykon get very badly hurt three times, and badly hurt twice. The three very badly hurts were all physical damage - twice by Roy and once by Soon.

The Order's absolute best bet to beat him is quite possibly an antimagic field, or a bunch of greater dispel magics hoping at least one goes through and negates his flight + defensive rings. Take away his magical advantage and let Roy do his job (maybe with Giant Durkon).

Long story made short, the three epic spellcasters all made epic blunders, and went into battle with very little preparation. Suffice to say that, with a well thought strategy, all three of them should have ripped his bony ass a new one. When Xykon when toe to toe with an (admitedly well-suited to fight him) epic enemy, he went down like a truck downhill.

Yes, Xykon has a point: there is a level of power that no strategy is able to overcome. But there are also weakness that, when adequately exploited, can overcome large power deficits.

[Once&FutureKing]

Long story made short, the three epic spellcasters all made epic blunders, and went into battle with very little preparation. Suffice to say that, with a well thought strategy, all three of them should have ripped his bony ass a new one. When Xykon when toe to toe with an (admitedly well-suited to fight him) epic enemy, he went down like a truck downhill.

Yes, Xykon has a point: there is a level of power that no strategy is able to overcome. But there are also weakness that, when adequately exploited, can overcome large power deficits.

This pretty much

[Chronos]

But Xykon (almost certainly) hasn't got a good Reflex save.Yes and no. His Dex probably isn't extraordinarily high, and he has a poor Reflex save progression from his class, but still, he has a lot of HD, and even a poor progression adds up. If, for instance, he's 27th level, then his base Reflex save would be +9, the same as for a 14th or 15th level rogue. And he may well have items that boost his Dex and/or his saving throws in general.

Might he still fail Reflex saves? Sure, he might, and most things that offer Reflex saves still do something even on a save, anyway. But it's not something you want to rely on.