Will someone clarify multiple turn pools?

[danzibr]

I used to play (wrongly, I suppose), that if you can, say, destroy undead, then pick up a PrC that lets you turn undead, it would stack with the destroy undead. After reading up a bit on DMM business, it seems the best way to go is through getting multiple turn pools, but... how does this work?

If you can turn undead and get a PrC that lets you turn more, you don't get two pools?

If you can turn undead and get a PrC that lets you destroy undead (or vice versa) you get a pool for each? And each pool is affected by feats and whatnot?

And how about turning other things, like elementals?

Thanks in advance.

[Greenish]

If you can turn undead and get a PrC that lets you turn more, you don't get two pools?

If you can turn undead and get a PrC that lets you destroy undead (or vice versa) you get a pool for each? And each pool is affected by feats and whatnot?

And how about turning other things, like elementals?I don't know about your example (since turning destroys undead), but if you have Turn Undead from base class and go to PrC that grants Turn Undead, you don't get another pool, but your effective cleric level will stack. If you go to a PrC that offers some other kind of turning (Incarnum, Dragons, Elementals, Plants and Animals, whatever), then you get a separate pools, and taking Extra Turning will get you extra uses for both pools.

[danzibr]

I don't know about your example (since turning destroys undead), but if you have Turn Undead from base class and go to PrC that grants Turn Undead, you don't get another pool, but your effective cleric level will stack. If you go to a PrC that offers some other kind of turning (Incarnum, Dragons, Elementals, Plants and Animals, whatever), then you get a separate pools, and taking Extra Turning will get you extra uses for both pools.
Hmm yeah, thanks. I must have my terminology a little off. I thought there was a stronger version of turn undead... In a bit I'll come back after looking at the thread I'm thinking off. Have business to do now.

[Swooper]

Hmm yeah, thanks. I must have my terminology a little off. I thought there was a stronger version of turn undead... In a bit I'll come back after looking at the thread I'm thinking off. Have business to do now.
Seems so. "Destroy undead" is just what happens when you successfully turn undead that have HD equal to or less than half your effective turning level.

[Urpriest]

Seems so. "Destroy undead" is just what happens when you successfully turn undead that have HD equal to or less than half your effective turning level.

Destroy Undead is also an ACF from That's So Ravenloft. It's not the same as the "destroy undead" effect of turning, and functions as a separate turn pool.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, the non - nickname version of the book that "Destroy Undead" is from is Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

Alternately, you could instead choose the "Rebuke Dragons" acf from Dragon Magic.

When you get your first level of Sacred Exorcist, and thereby get Turn Undead attempts, you then get two pools.

[Radar]

Hmm yeah, thanks. I must have my terminology a little off. I thought there was a stronger version of turn undead... In a bit I'll come back after looking at the thread I'm thinking off. Have business to do now.
There are different pools for similar things. Apart from the regular turn undead there is AFAIK a class that gives destroy undead pool, which is a different effect (as weird as it sounds) - there is even an ability called turn plants. If the effect is different, you get separate pools. How does it interact with Extra Turning or DMM I can't tell - it get's quite confusing.

[danzibr]

Destroy Undead is also an ACF from That's So Ravenloft. It's not the same as the "destroy undead" effect of turning, and functions as a separate turn pool.
Yeah, that's totally it. I knew there was something more than just destroying them under the right situation.

[JackRackham]

RSoPelor also gives Greater Turning. How do people handle this? Second pool? If so, do you generally allow these alternate pools to fuel DMM and how do they interact with extra turning and nightsticks?

[JackRackham]

RSoPelor also gives Greater Turning. How do people handle this? Second pool? If so, do you generally allow these alternate pools to fuel DMM and how do they interact with extra turning and nightsticks?

[tyckspoon]

RSoPelor also gives Greater Turning. How do people handle this? Second pool? If so, do you generally allow these alternate pools to fuel DMM and how do they interact with extra turning and nightsticks?

Radiant Servant says you can use the Sun domain power more times, and the Sun domain specifically says you're just upgrading one of your regular Turn Undead uses. That one is pretty clear; there's no additional Turn pool, your regular TUs are just more potent against undead.

[Downysole]

I have gotten into this with my DM in a game I'm playing in now. He wants his players to be pretty OP and is actively trying to get us to be more awesome. I came into the game after studying for a big test, so I started at level 4 when the rest started at level 3. He urged me to take two flaws and to have a skill trick, and he's given us double con-mod to hps.

I'm playing a cleric with the cold domain and the DM said that my turn {fire creature} checks can be used for Divine Metamagic. Suffice it to say, I have two persists per day...at level 5. Taking Extra Turning = Persist +1 check.

This is not RAW, and I have a feeling I will be pretty overpowered at level 6 when I (obviously) take Extra Turning. So, I will mute it a little by only doing personal buffs and trying not to be more awesome than the paladin.

Divine feats in general are powered off turn/rebuke checks, but RAW indicates that DMM only works with Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead checks. My DM extended that to all turn checks. Extra Turning: "each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains an additional four uses per day"

Too cool for school

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Depends on the specifics. The ravenloft ACF? No.

I suppose I should make/update that Turning handbook, h

[SirFredgar]

Depends on the specifics. The ravenloft ACF? No.

I suppose I should make/update that Turning handbook, h

Not sure who you were saying no to.

But I thought I should throw in my two cents. IIRC, Destroy Undead will power DMM feats, as will turn and rebuke undead. Everything else (Turning/Rebuking/destroying Dragons/Elementals/Oozes/Beholders or whatever you may have that is not Undead will not work for DMM.

I do believe that extra turning would give you additional turns per pool, included Destory undead. So unless there are some more obscure Turning/Rebuking pools that count for DMM, maximum that any one player can have is three pools. If there are more that work for DMM than just Destroy/Turn/Rebuke Undead, point me to it, cause I need more DMM Shenanigans.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Not sure who you were saying no to.

But I thought I should throw in my two cents. IIRC, Destroy Undead will power DMM feats, as will turn and rebuke undead. Everything else (Turning/Rebuking/destroying Dragons/Elementals/Oozes/Beholders or whatever you may have that is not Undead will not work for DMM.

I do believe that extra turning would give you additional turns per pool, included Destory undead. So unless there are some more obscure Turning/Rebuking pools that count for DMM, maximum that any one player can have is three pools. If there are more that work for DMM than just Destroy/Turn/Rebuke Undead, point me to it, cause I need more DMM Shenanigans.

From all my studying of Divine Metamagic this is true. The MOST I have found for pools for DMM is Destroy/Turn/Rebuke Undead.

Below are things I have found helpful when using DMM:
There are a few domains that also help with the cause:

Undeath: Grants Extra Turning (Spell Compendium)
Planning: Grants Extend Spell (Player's Guide to Fayrun)

The next two even though they are official, some people don't like because they are from Dragonlance.

Necromancy: Grants Rebuke Undead (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)
Sun: Grants Turn Undead (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)

Standard Equipment:

Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick (or 2 or 3 or...)

Assuming 3 turn pools, 16 Cha, a Reliquary Holy Symbol with 5 ranks in Knowledge: (religion), 1 Nightstick and 1 Extra Turning Feat your pool for DMM is: 48 OR 8 Persisted Spells. If you extend your spells as well (you have the feat), you can get a total of 16 Persisted Spells going at once. If you threw up an "Eagle's Splendor" for the Cha buff you could get 2 more (one on day one one on day two) for a total of 18 buffs at once.

[SirFredgar]

From all my studying of Divine Metamagic this is true. The MOST I have found for pools for DMM is Destroy/Turn/Rebuke Undead.

Below are things I have found helpful when using DMM:
There are a few domains that also help with the cause:

Undeath: Grants Extra Turning (Spell Compendium)
Planning: Grants Extend Spell (Player's Guide to Fayrun)

The next two even though they are official, some people don't like because they are from Dragonlance.

Necromancy: Grants Rebuke Undead (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)
Sun: Grants Turn Undead (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)

Standard Equipment:

Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick (or 2 or 3 or...)

Assuming 3 turn pools, 16 Cha, a Reliquary Holy Symbol with 5 ranks in Knowledge: (religion), 1 Nightstick and 1 Extra Turning Feat your pool for DMM is: 48 OR 8 Persisted Spells. If you extend your spells as well (you have the feat), you can get a total of 16 Persisted Spells going at once. If you threw up an "Eagle's Splendor" for the Cha buff you could get 2 more (one on day one one on day two) for a total of 18 buffs at once.

Wow, thanks. I knew a little of that, but the dragonlance Domains are completely new to me. Most people I see here suggest Death Delver for gaining a Rebuke pool. Is dragonlance that setting that is considered pseudo third party, even though it's WoTC?

[erikun]

If you have a prestige class that adds its levels to another class for the purposes of turning undead, such as Radiant Servant of Pelor or the Prestige Paladin, then they would be added to your Destroy Undead ACF. You would not get a seperate Turn Undead pool, as they don't grant it themselves, just improve it.

If you go into a prestige class that actually grants Turn Undead - the Sacred Exorcist is a popular one - then you end up with two turning pools, one for Destroy Undead and one for Turn Undead... technically. I believe that Destroy Undead ACF Cleric X/Sacred Exorcist 1 is the most common method, possibly with a single level of Dread Necromancer if you want a third pool (Rebuke Undead) for giving up a level of spellcaster.

Divine Metamagic only works with Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead. Destroy Undead works as well, because they can specifically be used for anything that counts or uses Turn Undead attempts. Other turning, such as Turn Hippos, specifically do not work with DMM.

Also remember that Extra Turning grants bonus attempts to all turnings, so your D.Undead Cleric/Sacred Exorcist/Dread Necro taking the Extra Turning feat would get four extra Destroy Undead uses, four extra Turn Undead uses, four extra Rebuke Undead uses, and for extra Turn Hippo uses.


Note that I would not consider it unreasonable for a DM to just stack such abilities rather than allowing additional pools. That would have to be a specific judgement call by the DM, though, as it really isn't how the rules interact by default.

[kulosle]

So what about taking the destroy undead ACF and choosing necromancy and sun as your domains. Level one and you now have three turning pools booyah. Be a magic blooded strongheart halfling (+4 to cha and a feat for 0 LA) take two flaws and now you have extend spell, persist spell, and extra turning twice. lets say you put an 18 into charisma total of 22. normal turning pool is 3+cha=9 plus 8 from feats = 17 times 3 turning pools = 51 divided by 6 turn attempts for each spell = 8 persisted spells at level 1. OW!

[SirFredgar]

So what about taking the destroy undead ACF and choosing necromancy and sun as your domains. Level one and you now have three turning pools booyah. Be a magic blooded strongheart halfling (+4 to cha and a feat for 0 LA) take two flaws and now you have extend spell, persist spell, and extra turning twice. lets say you put an 18 into charisma total of 22. normal turning pool is 3+cha=9 plus 8 from feats = 17 times 3 turning pools = 51 divided by 6 turn attempts for each spell = 8 persisted spells at level 1. OW!

Well, I also believe getting Destroy Undead requires you to be part of an undead hatey organization that has 100g membership fee. As a GM: "Explain to me why your character has the necromancy and sun domain?" They seem pretty diametrically opposed... esp considering one allows you to channel positive energy and the other one allows you to channel negative energy.

[erikun]

As a GM: "Explain to me why your character has the necromancy and sun domain?" They seem pretty diametrically opposed...
Cleric of Ra, the egyptian sun god. He certainly wasn't shy about making mummies.


Also, that wouldn't quite work out as planned. The sun domain allows you to "perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning" once per day. It does not grant turning, nor (if you wish to be technical) could it even be used without any 'regular turning' attempts. You might just be better with Necromancy and Undeath (Rebuke + Extra Turning) anyways, which is a far better thematic fit.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Wow, thanks. I knew a little of that, but the dragonlance Domains are completely new to me. Most people I see here suggest Death Delver for gaining a Rebuke pool. Is dragonlance that setting that is considered pseudo third party, even though it's WoTC?

From the discussions I have seen/been a part of Dragonlance is treated in the same regard as 3rd party material. I guess it is because there are things from it that can be used to abuse heavily (mainly the Dragonspawn template (DSpawn Abominations can potentially add even more cheese), and the feat "Reserves of Strength").

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some quotes from this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225411


"Human
Cloistered Cleric7/Sacred Exorcist 2/Death Delver 1
Swap knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion
Swap CC's Turning for Destroy Undead (from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft; there are 2 or 3 other options in other sources that will do, but I like this one)
Take Undeath and Planning domains
Take 2 flaws
You get Extend Spell and one Extra Turning for free. You have to spend two feats on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Let's take Power Attack too, just because. You get 4 feats from levels, 1 from race, 2 from flaws, for 7 total, leaving 4 you can spend on more Extra Turnings. With the free one, that's 5 copies of Extra Turning.
Get a Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick.
You have 3 + 20 (Extra Turning) + 2 (holy symbol) + 4 (Nightstick) + charisma, or 29 + charisma, uses of Turn Undead.
You have the same number of uses of Destroy Undead.
You also have the same number of uses of Rebuke Undead.
That's 87 plus triple charisma bonuses uses to fuel DMM with. Assuming a modest 14 charisma, that's enough for 13 spells."

And here's second quote:

"Human Cleric6(Rebuke Dragons ACF)/RadiantServant1/SacredExorcist1/RS X. I'm currently at level 8. Feats are Extend, Persistent, DMM(Persistent), Extra Turning.

Our group counts Radiant Servant's Greater Turning as a separate pool of turns. I have 1 Nightstick (we don't allow them to stack) and a Reliquary Holy Symbol - both refluffed to affect Rebuke Dragons instead of Turn Undead, as my cleric worships Tamara, but this isn't necessary for it to work! So with 14 Charisma base (18 with Eagle's Spleandor) I have:

17 Rebuke Dragon Attempts
11 Turn Undead Attempts
7 Greater Turnings"

Third quote:

"Reliquary Holy Symbol: +2 turns
Nightstick: +4 turns
Extra Turning: +4 turns
Any Charisma +2 item: +1 turn
Cast Eagle’s Splendor: +2 turns
Consider Extending the Persistent Spell for a 48 hour duration (8 turns). Then persist a few spells, then 2nd day persist a different set of spells. Effectivly doubles the # of persistent spells you have have active.
Use a Metamagic Rod, Extend instead of the extra turn.
Use Slow Spell to make it 6 turns instead of 7 turns. Although Extra Turning is likely a better choice.
Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su) is a single ability. Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead refer to the same ability and you have to pick one or the other, you can't double up here. The Cleric description roughly states that if your alignment changes so does your turn/rebuke ability to match.
Elemental turning such as that provided by the Cold Domain will NOT power divine feats.
Channel Incarnum (Azurin race), Destroy Undead and Rebuke Dragons will power divine feats. Sacred Exorcist gives you Turn Undead. So it may be possible to double (or more) the number of turns you get per day for use with DMM
Remember that Extra Turning adds 4 to ALL your turning pools.
Technically a touch is not a fixed or personal range. Your size dictates the range of a touch spell.
House rules could permit touch spells to be persisted if they are cast as-if personal (ie: yourself).
You could research an original spell with a range of personal that is practically identical to the spell with a range of touch.
Reach Spell turns a touch spell into a ray with a fixed range of 30ft, which can then be Persisted. However, that's a total +8 level adjustment. A cleric with Divine Metamagic for Persistent also could do it at a cost of +2 levels and 9 turnings. Seems a bit silly to force a "touch" spell into a "fixed ranged ray" only to cast it upon yourself, but technically it works!
Heirophant provides for Divine Reach which is the same as Reach Spell for free.
Technically medium is 100 ft + 10 ft. This is not a fixed range, it is a variable range depending on level.
v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ gives a specific example of Summon Monster NOT qualifying for Persistent Spell.
You could research an original spell with a fixed range (short = 10ft, medium = 20ft, long = 30ft). This original spell could be pratcially identical to the spell with a variable range.
Also look at the Spelldander Prc + Vagabond Sandals."

[SirFredgar]

Cleric of Ra, the egyptian sun god. He certainly wasn't shy about making mummies.


Also, that wouldn't quite work out as planned. The sun domain allows you to "perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning" once per day. It does not grant turning, nor (if you wish to be technical) could it even be used without any 'regular turning' attempts. You might just be better with Necromancy and Undeath (Rebuke + Extra Turning) anyways, which is a far better thematic fit.

I dig it! I'm a huge fan of the egyptian flavor, I can't beleive that pantheon slipped my mind. I'd fotally be fine with it now. Just got to explain how he weasled his way into the Undead Hatey organization, and make sure you roll more then 100g.

Also, we were referring to the Dragonlance domain posted earlier that would grant Turn Undead. You might have skipped it, it's in a spoiler box. However, if that version of Turning is off the table, I'd agree with you with your domain choices. You could always dip Sacred Exorsist later for turn.

[erikun]

I dig it! I'm a huge fan of the egyptian flavor, I can't beleive that pantheon slipped my mind. I'd fotally be fine with it now. Just got to explain how he weasled his way into the Undead Hatey organization, and make sure you roll more then 100g.

Also, we were referring to the Dragonlance domain posted earlier that would grant Turn Undead. You might have skipped it, it's in a spoiler box. However, if that version of Turning is off the table, I'd agree with you with your domain choices. You could always dip Sacred Exorsist later for turn.
Yeah, I've been following that. I actually mentioned the Destroy Undead ACF earlier.

I've always thought of the egyptian-flavored divine casters as friendly towards guardian undead, such as mummies or skeleton guards, but very hostile towards others who make undead. After all, if a character considers animating bodies to be a blessing by their deity specifically to protect and guard royal crypts and treasures, having a random nobody running around making zombies is really going to upset them.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I forgot to mention a neat little trick I found to get an 'extra' domain. There is a 2nd level spell in "Complete Champion" (Pg. 128) called Substitute Domain. It lets you swap one of your domains for another that your god offers. I tend to take Cloister Cleric for the knowledge domain for free and substitute it out for one of the domains I stated above. Sub Domain spell lasts DAYS/level so you don't have to waste a slot on it every day.