Who's going to kill Redcloak? [SoD spoilers]

[fergo]

(I'm going to put my own talk of SoD in spoilers, but since it may be central to the discussion I figured to put a warning in the title as well).

This is something I thought of looking at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233528) thread. I was going to respond saying that Roy will be the one to kill Xykon for dramatic reasons, when I found myself speculating on Redcloak's ultimate demise.

This is, ultimately, two questions, one of which is more important than the other (but since I have my own personal theory to that I decided to ask the second as well, which I have no real idea on :smallbiggrin:).

Firstly, who will kill Redcloak? (If, of course, he dies at all).

Secondly, assuming Roy will naturally focus on Xykon as his nemesis (Xykon's forgetfulness notwithstanding :smallwink:), who would be the one to focus on Redcloak?

(Warning: wild speculation will follow).

1. I think that Redcloak will die before the end of the story.

And it will be heartbreaking :smallfrown::smalleek::smallfrown:

His journey, starting with SoD, demands it. Maybe death will equal redemption after all. Not enough to make him a good guy, I hope, but still a personal redemption.

And his story, bearing in mind everything that has happened to him, points to one obvious person to be the one to do it: Xykon. With the two gearing up to betray each other, it's seeming like a certainty.

It may actually be the MitD that does the killing and that will be heartbreaking, too :smallfrown::smalleek::smallfrown: because of Xykon's spell at the end of SoD. But it'll still be because of Xykon..

None of the other characters have a personal, emotional stake in Redcloak (yes, I know Xykon doesn’t have emotions; hopefully you know what I mean). Indeed, the Order seem to pretty much ignore him, with the exception of Haley when she was with the resistance. Tsukiko might of, before she died. A case could be made for Niu, but I like to think Redcloak’s death will be tragic rather than just a revenge (although of course Niu might have a part to play in it).

What does everyone else think?

2. This is the one I’m not too sure about. The whole operation is geared towards defeating Xykon, with Redcloak and the MitD almost as afterthoughts (although we don’t know Roy’s plans yet, I have to admit).

Yes, I know that the plot/law of drama/character choices running up to the next showdown (which may be getting closer all the time) will dictate who fights who.

But I’m still curious on what all of you think would be the best match for Redcloak, either for plot reasons or for mechanics reasons (I’m not a D&D player, so I wouldn’t know about that).

The only thing that springs to mind is that Haley might have a personal stake in going after Wrong-Eye if she hears about the fall of the Resistance before the next battle.

[hoff]

My guess is that Xykon is going to kill redcloak for lying to him about the whole plan when he finds out the truth. Then he is going to hijack the plan for his own twisted purposes.

[psijac]

When Girard bobby trap exploded Roy asked what could have possibly turned these adventurers against each other. I think Roy will sacrifice belkar because the oracle the Ltd Roy Belkar would draw his last breathe before the year is over. The team members will find it callous and it will break the group. In addition; n to any bad happenings due to V's soul selling.

[Scarlet Knight]

"Nobody kills him. He lives."
"Geez Grandpa, why did you read me this?!"

[Morty]

If Redcloak dies, I agree that Xykon is the most likely character to do it. However, I'm wary of such speculation because of how much can still happen between now and the finale, which might look completely differently from what we might imagine now.
That, and I strongly suspect the Order - or at least one member of the Order - will speak to Redcloak before this is all over. After all, they and their allies currently have a mostly wrong idea why this is all happening.

[Quild]

"Nobody kills him. He lives."
"Geez Grandpa, why did you read me this?!"

Do we have to read the kissing parts?

[aldeayeah]

SoD:
His niece.

Or some other goblinoid.

[t209]

How about Niuh? Not like duel,
Redcloak is wounded, ran out of magic and in negative hitpoints. Order of the Stick give her the honor to avenge the resistance and her homeland. Plunge a dagger or Thanh's sword (recovered) sword. Like I did to Ulfric in Skyrim.

[Anarion]

It depends.




Oh, that wasn't a satisfactory answer? Okay, fine then.
If Redcloak betrays Xykon, a combination of the MitD and Xykon are most likely to kill Redcloak. This is due to the brainwashing thing that happened in SoD, which should come to fruition at some point. However, the relationship of MitD with Redcloak makes me think that it wouldn't have the right impact if MitD got the actual kill, so it would be Xykon finishing it, but MitD setting up the situation somehow or other.

If Redcloak tries to betray Xykon and fails, then he could die to MitD, as that would be the completion of his failure. It would also be a very serious moment for the comic if that happened.

If Redcloak betrays Xykon but ultimately sides with Xykon, he could be killed by his niece or by the Order of the Stick. He could also be killed by O-chul, should the situation set itself up just right, although I would expect O-chul to die in the process.

If Redcloak repents at the last moment, he could engineer his own demise, possibly through the snarl, possibly through trying to save his niece from something or other.

All told, I would suggest the list is narrowed to: Xykon, MitD, Recloak's niece, The Order of the Stick, O-chul, or Redcloak himself.

[rbetieh]

Tarquin, he has yet to make an impact on the overall story and would most certainly react violently as soon as he finds out that Team Evil will not be helping him as Nale expects they will. He has to kill someone important, or he goes down as another Kubota, so I give him about a 30% on it being a team Evil component, a 30% on it being Belkar, and a 30% on it being Girard, with a 10% on Nale.

[B. Dandelion]

I'll throw in for a dark horse candidate and suggest Jirix, just for the cruel irony of it. The once naive kid he's taught all about being evil and deceptive and not trusting people outside of your race, and then handed the reigns of absolute power to. How could it ever backfire?

[silvadel]

My guess?

Redcloak ascends and takes over the dark one's place as the god of goblins.

[bubba0077]

Here's what I think:

Redcloak will be done in by Xykon. Xykon will first try to get MitD to do it, but MitD will shake off Xykon's control at a key point and refuse to finish Redcloak off, leaving Xykon to land the final blow. I can see O'Chul being there with encouraging words to give a +2 circumstance bonus to MitD to throw off Xykon's control.

Xykon will of course be finished off by Roy, possibly in a continuation of the above scene. Possibly Roy swoops in on a Xykon distracted by Redcloak's treachery and MitD's refusal to take him out.

[JSSheridan]

In SoD, Xykon's Charm or Compulsion on the MitD specifically said, "...if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."


That second part is moot now since RC isn't wearing the phylactery now. Being hidden on his person, MitD won't regurgitate it. So will it survive a trip through MitD's gastrointestinal tract?

[rgrekejin]

The Snarl, due to complications from the gate-moving ritual not working the way everyone expects it to.

This may happen due to the Dark One not fully understanding the nature of the Snarl (he wasn't there when it was bound, maybe he is underestimating it in some way). Or maybe he's not telling Redcloak the full truth for any number of reasons. Still, tampering with the Snarl at all is an exceedingly treacherous enterprise, even for a god. And I think it'll end badly for him.

...end total guess mode.

[Squirrel_Token]

Me.

minimum character limit

[ti'esar]

Double post.

[ti'esar]

The Snarl, due to complications from the gate-moving ritual not working the way everyone expects it to.

This may happen due to the Dark One not fully understanding the nature of the Snarl (he wasn't there when it was bound, maybe he is underestimating it in some way). Or maybe he's not telling Redcloak the full truth for any number of reasons. Still, tampering with the Snarl at all is an exceedingly treacherous enterprise, even for a god. And I think it'll end badly for him.

...end total guess mode.

Actually, while I rather hope the Dark One will wind up becoming Snarl fodder, I suspect that if this happens Redcloak will not perish with his god.


Me.

I'll admit to having this reaction after strip 827.

[rbetieh]

Me.

minimum character limit

Murderer!!!!!!!!

[martianmister]

No one. He will live and meets his one true love:

Right-Eye's daughter!

:redcloak: "...and kids, that's how I meet your mother..."

[Michaeler]

Directly or indirectly, he will.

[ti'esar]

No one. He will live and meets his one true love:

Right-Eye's daughter!

:redcloak: "...and kids, that's how I meet your mother..."

Um, she's his niece.


Directly or indirectly, he will.

This post wins the thread.

[SpaceBadger]

No one. He will live and meets his one true love:

Right-Eye's daughter!

:redcloak: "...and kids, that's how I meet your mother..."

Ugh, you know that is his niece, right?

[Diadem]

I don't think redcloak will die.

His character and story are too well developed to just be killed off by the OOTS or O-chul while still being a lackey of Xykon. There will have to be a confrontation between Xykon and Redcloak first.

Xykon winning that confrontation is a possibility, but a rather boring one. So I hope that's not the one Rich will go with. Similarly Redcloak winning would screw up the story. So my money is on both of them surviving, most likely with redcloak fleeing. If after that Redcloak gives up his plans for the gate, he will probably survive as the new leader of the goblin people. If he doesn't, he'll ultimately die. Probably by the order or O-chul.

Another possibility is a heel-face turn of redcloak, where he joins the good guys against Xykon. The standard trobe is that he will then die saving the good guys. But this is such a hackneyed plot device that I don't expect it will happen. Or at least I hope it won't.

As for the MoTD (SoD spoilers):
I think people read too much in the mind-control thing. The whole story of the MoTD is him slowly discovered he's a good guy. He won't kill anyone. Certainly none of the good guys, almost certainly not redcloak, who is too morally ambigous. The only person he could possibly kill is Xykon. But I doubt even that, he's too much of a pacifist.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think he will go down fighting Xykon, if he is going to be a "redeemed" villain (not alignment shift, mind you, just get over his stupid sunk cost crap and admit Right-Eye was right).

[silvadel]

Note my speculation in part comes from just how very similar redcloak and the dark one are turning out to be.

[Renegade Paladin]

My guess?

Redcloak ascends and takes over the dark one's place as the god of goblins.
The Dark One might have something to say about that.

[Elfey]

I'm not sure he's actually going to die. The IFFC has their option on V likely due to him being in the right place to control the snarl. The only other person who was divine that figured out the ritual is now dead, and The Red Cloak holds the ritual's secrets in it.

I think there's some good potential in Redcloak rejecting The Plan once he realizes he's been diluting himself ever since Right-Eye's death and accepts responsibility.

That action either ends with his death, either super noble ending the threat of the snarl, or a vengeful Xykon (either direct or via MitD); or with Redcloak rejecting the Plan, perhaps even the Dark One completely, and becoming a simple hermit/monk.

[Turgon9357]

My needlessly drawn out theory is thus:

(parts of it will be spoiler'd as I see fit)

1)
The ritual won't work, or the Dark One will be stopped

If my understanding is correct, the gods in the OOTS universe are not like how we typically think of them (I'm assuming most of us here come from the real-world Western Tradition). These beings are not all powerful and all knowing. They can be defeated, and they can be wrong or ill-informed. Redcloak is trying to run a Xanatos Gambit without really considering that all his plans could get wrapped up and stomped on, along with his god.

2)
Redcloak will destroy Xykon; Redcloak will self-destruct

I understand that in order for this point to be work, Roy is going to get downsized and have less of a role than what he ought to receive, seeing how destroying Xykon once and for all is his blood oath and personal oath to fulfill. Presupposing this to be the case, I see Roy being the one to give the final blow to Xykon's skeletal body. However, Redcloak still has the real phalactery.

With The Plan totally and irrevocably ruined, Redcloak will have finally had enough. He will finally get over his diehard sunken-cost delusion and accept that The Plan didn't work and that all the goblin deaths (especially Right-Eye's) weren't worth it. He will then pitch the phylactery into the local Mt. Doom, getting rid of Xykon permanently. He will then probably end his own life to regain some scrap of honor/redemption, or at least ride of into a very dismal sunset.

I'm sure my theory has gaping holes in it. Just looking to add to the conversation.

[skaddix]

HE should die no cop outs. RC just needs to own it like Xykon and Tarquin.

[Tergon]

Actually I can see Redcloak becoming an Ascended Henchman before this all comes to a head. Let's be clear on two things:
One, as long as he holds the Crimson Mantle, Redcloak is literally the only being in creation short of the Dark One himself who knows the Ritual of the Snarl. And only a Goblin Priest of the Dark One could take the mantle from him to get the knowledge, so that means Xykon can't just steal the Crimson Mantle.
Two, Redcloak created Xykon because he needed a powerful Arcane Caster who he could manipulate. As he explained in pretty explicit detail to Jirix and to Tsukiko, that's still how he views Xykon - the lich is powerful and dangerous, but still ultimately a tool for Redcloak's plan. And tools can be replaced.

The Order of the Stick is going after Xykon because he's the Big Bad, and the target of Roy's Blood Oath, and all that fancy Jazz. Which means at some point, Xykon's going to become more of a burden to Redcloak than an asset. The second that happens? My money says ol' Greeny will dump that sack of bones by the wayside.
Redcloak can break his alliance with Xykon and find his master plan only mildly hindered if he's got another Arcane Caster in the wings. (Which he probably does, my guess in this case being Nale). Xykon cannot say the same, as without Redcloak, Xykon loses everything.

So yeah, I'm thinking Redcloak will outlive Xykon and forge on to complete the ritual, even if it takes a kamikaze dive on his part to do it. As to who, if anyone, will actually stop him? That part I just don't know!

[Umberhulk]

My guess?

Redcloak ascends and takes over the dark one's place as the god of goblins.

This is my favorite. Maybe the Dark One intervenes and is destroyed. Red Cloak, dying in an act of sacrafice, later ascends.

[Redgoblin]

The Order of the Stick is going after Xykon because he's the Big Bad, and the target of Roy's Blood Oath, and all that fancy Jazz. Which means at some point, Xykon's going to become more of a burden to Redcloak than an asset. The second that happens? My money says ol' Greeny will dump that sack of bones by the wayside.

I suspect he already has set this plan into motion. At the next gate, assuming it isn't a single gem like Soon's, I expect Redcloak will toss the phylactery into it and (he hopes) destroy it. Then all he has to do is get Xykon's physical's body destroyed through a well timed spell in the middle of a fight. Heck, if Xykon is fighting the order at the time, Redcloak can pass it off as a heel face turn. (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn)

As for destroying him, I'm not sure Redcloak will die. I think his most fitting ending would be living to see his plan fail, the crimson mantle destroyed, and having to work for the goblin people without his life's dream.
That, I think, would be worse for him.

[fergo]

As for destroying him, I'm not sure Redcloak will die. I think his most fitting ending would be living to see his plan fail, the crimson mantle destroyed, and having to work for the goblin people without his life's dream.
That, I think, would be worse for him.

I don't know. As a Redcloak fanboy, I may be biased, but I don't think Rich's plan for him is 'He suffers the worst fate possible because he's EVIL.'

I think he will suffer, and he will probably see all his dreams and plans come to naught, and like I said in my original post, he will probably die. Maybe he'll have some sort of redemption, even just a little bit, maybe not; but I don't think Rich's idea of a satisfying ending for one of the deepest (indeed, I would argue the most multi-layered and possibly the most interesting) characters in his story.

But I may be wrong, and probably am :smallwink:.

[fergo]

This is my favorite. Maybe the Dark One intervenes and is destroyed. Red Cloak, dying in an act of sacrafice, later ascends.

I'm not saying this is unlikely, but it's not to my taste (heavy SoD spoilers following, on the odd chance that someone's accidentally stumbled in here).

I see the Dark One as a malicious, uncaring God. Sure, he cares about goblins as a whole, but as individuals they're nothing to him.

You think Redcloak would sacrifice anything for the plan? He's nothing compared to the Dark One.

Sure, Redcloak has given up so much. He's even killed his own brother for the Plan. But in doing that, he was just trying to be like the Dark One, to put the plan ahead of everything else, even his own happiness and conscience.

And I think when the blow falls, Redcloak is going to have one big rant against the god he's worked so hard for and given up so much.

What I'm saying is that I think of Redcloak's story as a human story*, of a normal person pushed beyond what he would normally do because of events far beyond their control, being forced further and further by circumstances until he finally snaps.

So I think him becoming the new god of the goblins wouldn't fit into what I think the underlying themes of his story are.

* Ahem, yes, I know he isn't human :smalltongue:.

[Bad Hair Day]

One round after they complete the ritual and Xykon realizes he's been duped, Xykon will try to kill RC. Hopefully RC can hold him off a few rounds until TDO stops/kills Xykon.

I'm hoping RC lives to the end. And if TDO ends up snarl-fodder, then hopefully RC will ascend and be the next Goblin God.

[Emulgator]

I think that at the end of the comic - with Xykon killed and gates destroyed - Redcloak will snap, and thinking "this is the end" he'll desperately shout: why did he allied wih Xykon, what was The Plan about, et cetera. The Order will understand, and they will allow him to lead the Gobbotopia. And them, after Redcloak dies, Right Eye shall welcome him by name.

So, old age.

[Yaminsoul]

I am actually going to +1 the suggestion of Niuh, not necessarily because I think it will happen, (I think MiTD is more likely) but because I think Niuh killing him would be a wonderful narrative comment on the ultimately cyclical and futile nature of revenge and 'murder for the sake of necessity/freedom.'

After all, RC did to her something somewhat similar (though more morally justifiable, to me, then killing innocent woman/children) to her that was done to him. Yes, the circumstances were VERY different, but its really is a nice parallel in many ways, and given the way Giant seems to want to explore the complex interactions of nation building, revenge, racism and sunken costs with RC, this type of end that is not an end would be powerful comment on such things.

[t209]

After all, RC did to her something somewhat similar (though more morally justifiable, to me, then killing innocent woman/children) to her that was done to him. Yes, the circumstances were VERY different, but its really is a nice parallel in many ways, and given the way Giant seems to want to explore the complex interactions of nation building, revenge, racism and sunken costs with RC, this type of end that is not an end would be powerful comment on such things.

Ok! If Rich did with Niuh what would it be?
Skyrim Fashion:
Order of the Stick giving her the honor to finish him. Like Ulfric's execution or Tulius execution
Goblins fashion:
Like how kin stab multiple time to Goblinslayer.
or
Both!

[Daelach]

I think that Xykon must die by the end of the comic. But I do not think he will outlive Redcloak by very long. The reason is that Redcloak is a more important character than Xykon.

We have no indication that Xykon has any long-term plan other than to cast Redcloak's ritual. He's tried to get information about the ritual using Tsukiko and he will continue to try and get more information about it. But when he realizes the ritual will not help him at all (whether that is before or after he casts it), he will be left with no long-term goal at all.

In SoD, he was just a random killing machine when he met Redcloak. He has simply not-killed Redcloak up to this point because Redcloak gave him a plan to move up to the next step of villainy. Without Redcloak, Xykon is back to being no more than a random killing machine.

Redcloak, on the other hand, has a long term plan that involves the fate of the world (universe?). However, he is incapable of carrying it out with Xykon. Thus, the two are tied together. One cannot exist as the major villain of the comic without the other.

As for predictions, I expect that Redcloak and Xykon will be defeated on the same day. I do not expect them to be defeated in the same battle or even to be on the same "side" when the day of the final battle comes. I'm actually kinda expecting Redcloak to be alive at the end. The fact that the Rifts do not contain what everyone thinks they contain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) would seem to indicate this. That there is another world in Rift is something that Xykon could care less about but might be very intriguing to Redcloak.