Haters Gonna Hate

[Totally Guy]

I found this post by Scott Rubin of the Geeknights Podcast and I realised I'd not thought about being upset with criticism of things and activities in quite this way before.


I remember in college there were some people we knew who would always say "don't make fun of people's stuff!" If you criticized a thing that they liked, it made them feel bad. When the things you like become such a part of you that you take personal offense when those things are criticized, then you are at the bottom of the materialistic and consumerist pit of despair where products and material goods are a part of your identity. That's a problem. If a commercial brand or physical object or activity is a significant component of your self image, then you need to fix that ****.

I think that an extremely large part of our population has this problem. We are people, we discuss things, and we criticize things. Companies try very hard to make themselves a part of our self image. "I'm a Ford/Coke kinda guy." No two people like exactly the same things. Every human on Earth is a hater compared to everyone else on Earth when it comes to one thing or another. If a thing is part of your self, and you convert criticism of a thing into criticism of yourself, then you can see how it is going to be very problematic.

It is well known I don't like the Star Trek, Firefly, Archer, and many other things other nerds like. Most of my friends like those things very much. If I say to one of them, Star Trek sucks, do they get upset? They disagree, but it's not a personal attack against them. It's an attack against a corny old TV show. They might have a nerdy debate, or some back and forth smack talk, but nobody is going to feel bad about it.

Some people make the following faulty leap in logic:

I like that thing.
That person hates that thing, and they think it is stupid.
That person hates me, and thinks I am stupid for liking that thing they hate.

If you fall into this kind of thinking, you just can't live with people. As I said before, everyone is a hater. You will think every human on Earth hates you because every human being on earth does not like at least one thing that you like.

Now, if you make a thing, and someone hates it, then you might be able to take legitimate offense at that. If someone says a thing that you made sucks, they might be insulting your skills and you directly. But even then, if you are making things, and are unprepared to accept legitimate or illegitimate criticism, then you had better stop making things. Any creation of any kind is itself a criticism and an invitation for criticism.

There is one other possible scenario. There is a thing you have invested time and/or money and/or emotion into. Someone makes fun of the thing. You realize that they are right. You can't defend the thing in an argument, because it does actually suck. You don't want to accept it because that would mean regretting the time and/or money you have wasted. You aren't personally insulted because someone is making fun of you, you are just not handling the truth.

The right thing to do in these situations is to accept the truth, but not have the regret. I've wasted a lot of time and money on a lot of stupid ****. Middle school Scott loves Magic: The Gathering more than anything. Current Scott knows it's Money: The Wasting. But do I regret wasting that money? Hell no. I would not go back in time and spend that money any differently, assuming I can't buy winning lottery tickets.

Can I be great friends with someone who still loves M:TG, and even insult the game right to their face? Of course! We live on the Internet. That is what we do every second of every day. If that kind of **** upset us, we would have cried ourselves to death by cause of Internet over a decade ago.

Things are in no way sacred. People as a whole need to stop caring what other people say about things. As long as people treat other people well, I don't give a fraction of a **** how people treat objects. Like the IKEA Lamp commercial. You are stupid, it is a lamp! It does not have feelings, and the new one is much better!

[Serpentine]

Ye-ess... But... It's just so easy to say "I don't like X" instead of "X sucks".

(no offense intended to the letter X and St Andrew's Cross)

[Weezer]

I think one thing that a lot of people end up doing is not just disparaging things that people like, but saying that people are stupid/weird/whatever for even liking them in the first place. That's when I start getting irritated and defensive.

I like somewhat odd things, and I'm not insulted when others don't share my joy of sitting in my room, sipping a glass of scotch while knitting and watching Battlestar Galactica (the 1978 series). I'm not even bothered when people actively dislike any part of that, if I was bothered by that kind of thing I'd be letting my emotions be dictated by other people's subjective preferences, which is simply foolish. However, once it becomes more than thinking what I like sucks and thinking that I suck for liking them that I push back.

[TheThan]

Oddly enough, my friends and I poke an awful amount of fun at the very things we like. We don't hate those things, in fact we love those things. We just have a tendency recognize the faults any given "thing" has.

But I understand where the OP is coming from. I think more people need to "grow a thicker skin" and not get upset becomes some anonymous person on the net had the nerve to disagree with them. It gets really bad on the net because of that anonymity. There is a lot of hate out there, much of which is directed at people with a different opinion.

Its nice to have a great forum like this, where the hatred is policed and kept to a minimum. (you mods to a great job).

[Eakin]

Sounds like the OP of the article isn't distinguishing at all between insults/hate and criticism. That's a mistake. Of course when someone comes up and says "That thing you like sucks!" you get a little defensive. It's an attack, not a critique. Conversely, if they say something like "This show you like is bad, the story lines are silly, the characters annoy me, and the way the just finish every episode off with a random Deus Ex Machina just kills my enjoyment of it" then you might have something to talk about.

If someone walks up and says "I'm a Ford guy" or "Star Trek sucks" try responding "Why?"

And if you think people can get passionate about TV shows or card games, try bringing up politics some time. Or better yet, don't.

[thubby]

most people do implicitly insult fans when they insult an item with fans.

[Tyndmyr]

most people do implicitly insult fans when they insult an item with fans.

Not really. The fact that I dislike Mass Effect does not imply that I dislike people who enjoy Mass Effect(seems to be quite a lot). Insulting that thing is entirely different than insulting people.

And, seriously, people who consider a game or movie so central to their identity that any attack on it is equivalent to an attack on them...they strike me as odd. And probably too caught up in whatever that thing is, regardless of if I like it or not.

[Totally Guy]

I say the intent is important. If someone is trying to be a jerk then they're being a jerk. This intent is mostly unrelated to their opinion on something (but it can be incorporated into the activity of being a jerk if that's the way they want to do it).

[DeadManSleeping]

The reaction is somewhat justified by people who DO come under attack for their tastes (or lack thereof). Twilight fans, for example, get insulted pretty widely, so it would be natural for them to associate an attack on Twilight with an attack on their person. They come hand in hand often enough.

However, I know I've never had anyone insult me for enjoying pomegranate, so I don't tend to take umbrage when people say they dislike pomegranate.

In the end, EVERYONE is wrong, though, so let's try to get along anyway.

[The Bandicoot]

Everything you know is wrong!

[nooblade]

Well I think hate is an important emotion that is tied up with progress. The choices you make would be meaningless if there weren't some kind of superior state to be working toward. But this blurb is about leisurely activities; I think we can afford to calm down there. Politics are separate because they apply to many people.

I wonder if some of the things I've been interested in (videogames?) have been merely because I couldn't (can't ever?) influence bigger things. So I think there's more to the bit about M:TG than either "it's harmless" or "it's terrible". For example, I couldn't make up my own card game when other kids are interested in playing M:TG. Maybe that's good because M:TG is a more complex thing to analyze, maybe it's bad because youngsters lose creativity or get sucked into commercialism early on, IDK.

[Brother Oni]

I agree with others here - there's a distinct difference between saying "this show is [redacted]" and "I don't like this show because of [element X/Y/Z]".

Could someone help me with the meaning of the topic title? It seems like a redunant phrase - of course haters are going to hate, that's why they're called haters. :smallconfused:

[Eloel]

Could someone help me with the meaning of the topic title? It seems like a redunant phrase - of course haters are going to hate, that's why they're called haters. :smallconfused:

There (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/haters-gonna-hate)ya go

[Knaight]

I agree with others here - there's a distinct difference between saying "this show is [redacted]" and "I don't like this show because of [element X/Y/Z]".

Could someone help me with the meaning of the topic title? It seems like a redunant phrase - of course haters are going to hate, that's why they're called haters. :smallconfused:

At the same time, the difference between "this show is terrible" and "I don't like this show because of these reasons" is mostly one of eloquence. "This show is terrible" is an entirely reasonable statement, and it is "people who watch this show are brain-dead morons" and similar that cross the line into the insulting.

To use an example applicable to this forum, which is actually from the Wizards Forum a few years ago. There were a lot of statements of "4e is a terrible game", which I never took seriously. Then there was a fairly memorable "Everyone who plays lightweight systems like 4e turns stupid because their brains aren't being trained on 3.5"*, which was obnoxious enough to warrant criticism. It was also an example of someone who built 3.5 D&D into their identity, and lashed out at all criticism of that system.

*This is a much politer phrasing than the original.

[tensai_oni]

If you say "I do not like X for following reasons", then it is not insulting.
If you say "I do not like X", I ask "why?" and you give reasons, it is not insulting either.
If for a reason you say something untrue or vague like "because it sucks!" - well then you are wrong and poor at arguments, but it is still not insulting.

But if you say "people who like X are stupid", then it is insulting. And that happens more often than you think. Not even explicitly or implicitly. Too many human beings are jerks who don't even bother attacking an object, but rather its fan directly.

[Brother Oni]

But if you say "people who like X are stupid", then it is insulting. And that happens more often than you think. Not even explicitly or implicitly. Too many human beings are jerks who don't even bother attacking an object, but rather its fan directly.

The aforementioned Twilight series and its fandom for example. :smalltongue:

However some fandom/followers are so tarred by the object of their following, it's more than reasonable to attack them (figuratively at least)- paedophilic materials for example.

[Dogmantra]

"This show is terrible" is an entirely reasonable statement, and it is "people who watch this show are brain-dead morons" and similar that cross the line into the insulting.

What I like to do is just add "in my opinion" mentally to everything people say. When you're talking about something subjective like entertainment, it's pretty much assumed it's all opinion anyway. Then it gets much easier to distinguish between what's an insult to you and what's just criticising the show.


Could someone help me with the meaning of the topic title? It seems like a redunant phrase - of course haters are going to hate, that's why they're called haters. :smallconfused:
Waiters gonna wait.
Craters gonna crate.
Traitors gonna trait.
:smallcool:

[The Succubus]

Posters gonna post.

*nods sagely*

[aldeayeah]

What bugs me about the article is that it makes it sound like all the fault lies in the offended one.

That's dangerously close to "I don't think there's anything morally wrong with X, so I'm entitled to rub X in everyone's face."

When it should be more like "Sure, people should be less thin-skinned, but I could help a lot by being less rude."

[danzibr]

If someone walks up and says "I'm a Ford guy" or "Star Trek sucks" try responding "Why?"
This reminds me of a comedy skit where a guy is saying how to anger Star Wars fans. Go to a convention and yell, "Star Trek sucks!"

[thubby]

Not really. The fact that I dislike Mass Effect does not imply that I dislike people who enjoy Mass Effect(seems to be quite a lot). Insulting that thing is entirely different than insulting people.

you misunderstand me. it's not a by nature problem. it's how most people express their dislike.

[Tyndmyr]

To use an example applicable to this forum, which is actually from the Wizards Forum a few years ago. There were a lot of statements of "4e is a terrible game", which I never took seriously. Then there was a fairly memorable "Everyone who plays lightweight systems like 4e turns stupid because their brains aren't being trained on 3.5"*, which was obnoxious enough to warrant criticism. It was also an example of someone who built 3.5 D&D into their identity, and lashed out at all criticism of that system.

Yeah...it's a personal opinion. I will gleefully call movies, books, etc terrible. And of course, this is my opinion. What else could it be? It's not like I have some special direct connection to universal truth.

I just assume all such value judgements are opinions, because it's a bit obvious that they are. I take no insult from simple value judgements, you've got to add on a specifically insulting bit. That last sentence, for instance, is hilariously insulting.

[kyoryu]

Meh. I see it as a combination of a few things:

1) People derive too much of their self-image from the things they like. Yay, consumer culture. As such, they lose objectivity. I drive a Jeep Wrangler. I love my Jeep. Someone may tell me it sucks - and they're right. For certain things, the Jeep Wrangler is a terrible, terrible vehicle. For what I do, I love it.

2) In general, people need to be less autistic. They need to understand that their opinions are not absolute, and are driven by their needs, and their experiences. This ties into #1 above. I don't care for 3.x because it's not what I came back to D&D for. If I want an uber-flexible system that can make any type of character and handles non-combat well, I'll go play GURPS. For people who want a very flexible system, or who want very high power levels, or who aren't comfortable with other systems or who just haven't been exposed to them, 3.x is a great game. If somebody likes something you don't, it's probably because they have different needs or experiences than you do. It doesn't mean that you're wrong, or they're wrong.

3) Some people do choose to lash out at others by attacking the things they like. In general, "I don't like XYZ" (even without the 'why' clause) is going to come across better to someone that likes XYZ than "XYZ sucks!" will. And pretty much everyone over the age of 10 knows this.

4) Because people integrate their likes into their self-image, they develop a need to lash out at the "other" as a way of asserting their identity. This is pretty common with recent "converts" (quoted because I don't mean solely religious) to any movement/cause/group/whatever.

Points one and two combine pretty evilly, as well. Based on their needs and limited experience, someone will find something they like and then integrate it into their self-image. Then somebody else will do the same thing with the "other" side of the debate. Commence the hating, and devolution into "XYZ sucks!"

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Now the gears in my head are trying to grind out a way to connect this to Pelor.
Ye-ess... But... It's just so easy to say "I don't like X" instead of "X sucks".

(no offense intended to the letter X and St Andrew's Cross)

I dunno, I've noticed more than a few incidents where people kept parsing "I don't like X" *AS* "X sucks." :smallsigh:

[bloodtide]

I see two big problems with the hate complainers:

1.People are way, way to quick to push others into a category of 'them people'. And once they mentally mark you as 'them people', you don't count any more. If you say you like or dislike X, people will just put you in that category. You don't like Star Wars, oh well your one of them people.

2.People jump ahead way to far and way too fast. It's perfectly normal to say ''I don't like anime'' and people should just nod and go on with there lives. Yet people will instantly jump ahead to ''your a guy with a pitchfork burning anime in the streets'', and not just someone who said they did not like it. People have a need to hyper defend what they like, almost as if they have a fear it will be taken away. As if too many people said they did not like anime that it would all be destroyed or banned or not made any more.

[Whiffet]

There's definitely an element of people tying too much of their identities to stuff they like.

That said, there's a possible justification for getting upset. Sometimes the person who doesn't like something has an implied (or explicit) "X sucks, and you suck for liking it!" Even if this isn't intended, if the person hearing this has experienced an implied "you suck" a few times you can't blame the person for thinking there's an insult in the statement.

[Knaight]

Yeah...it's a personal opinion. I will gleefully call movies, books, etc terrible. And of course, this is my opinion. What else could it be? It's not like I have some special direct connection to universal truth.

I just assume all such value judgements are opinions, because it's a bit obvious that they are. I take no insult from simple value judgements, you've got to add on a specifically insulting bit. That last sentence, for instance, is hilariously insulting.

The last sentence I quoted, or the last sentence that actually came from me? If it is the first, I agree entirely - It's hilarious mostly in how utterly wrong it is, but also because the implication of the statement doesn't exactly help the image of the person saying it.

[Thes Hunter]

You draw more flies with honey, than vinegar.


People also like to be around positive individuals. Because people feel better about themselves, and others when people radiate positive vibes.


However, have you ever had a friend who after you finished talking to, you just felt drained? I am sure if you could think back over the conversation, you would notice it focused on very negative thoughts and feelings.


This is why I feel it's not just about people's over attachment to material things as to why it upsets people when other's hate on what they like, but also that it pulls from them some of their vital essence, if you will, having to deal with that negativity.

But I feel it's easier to hate, and some see hating as a way to look superior or more knowledgable (and unfortunately I think sometimes it works).

But I still feel it makes a much nicer, and more energetic community if people follow their mother's old adage: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

And is saying "It's not my thing, but you go ahead and enjoy." that hard anyways?

[Brother Oni]

But I still feel it makes a much nicer, and more energetic community if people follow their mother's old adage: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Unfortunately this is the internet where people have relative anonymity and the perception of no reperucussions for their actions. :smallsigh:

I personally follow the rule of not saying anything online that I wouldn't say to their face (it's amazing how much more polite people are, when they're within arm's reach :smalltongue:).

[Tyndmyr]

The last sentence I quoted, or the last sentence that actually came from me? If it is the first, I agree entirely - It's hilarious mostly in how utterly wrong it is, but also because the implication of the statement doesn't exactly help the image of the person saying it.

The quoted sentence. Don't get me wrong, I prefer 3.5, and appreciate that such an argument is not helping this system any, but still, you've just got to laugh at the logic fail.

[Knaight]

People also like to be around positive individuals. Because people feel better about themselves, and others when people radiate positive vibes.


However, have you ever had a friend who after you finished talking to, you just felt drained? I am sure if you could think back over the conversation, you would notice it focused on very negative thoughts and feelings.
That might apply to you, and to some subset of people. That said, I find a constant optimism and positivity positively grating - it's almost as if people vary, and overly broad statements tend to be wrong. Though that is somewhat tautological, as they would not be overly broad if they were correct, but merely broad.



This is why I feel it's not just about people's over attachment to material things as to why it upsets people when other's hate on what they like, but also that it pulls from them some of their vital essence, if you will, having to deal with that negativity.

But I feel it's easier to hate, and some see hating as a way to look superior or more knowledgable (and unfortunately I think sometimes it works).
I take it that the possibility of honestly disliking something has been discarded then? It isn't necessarily easier to hate things - that often requires disagreement, unless the thing in question is widely hated, and disagreement usually requires more effort than agreement, though this may vary by person.


But I still feel it makes a much nicer, and more energetic community if people follow their mother's old adage: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."
The inability to ever criticize ideas is a blank check for bad ideas to propagate. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" cannot be applied to criticism without seriously damaging a communities capability to think - it can merely be applied to people. This brings us back into the difference between "this work sucks" and "you suck, because you like this work".


And is saying "It's not my thing, but you go ahead and enjoy." that hard anyways?
Yet again, this reeks of a silencing tactic towards all criticism. Moreover, the exact same principle could be applied to a group of people who all disliked something, and are discussing it's failings. It would look like this:
"And is saying 'I personally like it, but continue to enjoy your criticism.' that hard anyways?". I see no reason that that is somehow less valid - both seem more like statements intended to cut off all disagreement than anything else.

[NNescio]

But I still feel it makes a much nicer, and more energetic community if people follow their mother's old adage: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

The inability to ever criticize ideas is a blank check for bad ideas to propagate. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" cannot be applied to criticism without seriously damaging a communities capability to think - it can merely be applied to people. This brings us back into the difference between "this work sucks" and "you suck, because you like this work".

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9118/bigbrothere.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak#To_remove_synonyms_and_antonyms)

[Karoht]

I play WoW. There are a heck of a lot of people who hate wow. Haters gonna hate sort of became my motto for a while.

But I learned a very important thing. Yes, there are people who are willing to say "X sucks and only a [insert derrotatory remark] would enjoy X" there are also those willing to say "X is not my cup of tea." Sure, it's best to take neither one personally, but the latter being the least offensive or threatening, it's extra important not to take that kind of remark personally as well.

There are also certain stigma's attatched to something like WoW. Most people who say that they dislike WoW will usually state that they dislike the elitist jerkwad players of the game. Some are intelligent people and don't assume straight away that because you play WoW you must be an elitist jerkwad player. Some on the other hand, jump right into this assumption with both feet completely in their mouths.

Especially if you're any good at WoW. If you're good at it, you must be really [insert derrogatory remark].

That said, I really wish people would stop commenting on games they don't play or other media that they have no information or experience with. That is really getting old these days. Many people I discuss WoW with are either working with an older understanding of the game and don't know about the miriad of changes (what, they fixed THAT? What? You don't play for 16 hours a day?), or they are working with the media stereotype, which I won't bother to describe for you all.


Maybe it's just me, but uninformed 'attacks' towards things I enjoy really come across more antagonistically than informed opinions which I have no problem with. Thoughts?