My cleric's Raptor Arrows?!

[Snowbluff]

So I am making a Ranged Cleric for my friends Dante's Inferno based campaign, and I was wondering what sort of buffs I should bring and if I can enchant my Raptor Arrows with additional properties.

I was thinking about getting a high-str bow and buffing my str, and/or grabbing zen archery. Anyone else have any good ideas for this style of play?

[Keld Denar]

You want an adjustable pull bow. Either a Bow of the Wintermoon, or a Bone Bow (Frostburn) with the EWP feat or Hank's Energy Bow from the D&D tv show web enhancement. If you plan on casting Divine Power, your Str will fluctuate greatly. This goes away a little if you are planning to DMM Persist Divine Power.

This all depends on what level you are planning to start at and if you are going the DMM route.

[Snowbluff]

You want an adjustable pull bow. Either a Bow of the Wintermoon, or a Bone Bow (Frostburn) with the EWP feat or Hank's Energy Bow from the D&D tv show web enhancement. If you plan on casting Divine Power, your Str will fluctuate greatly. This goes away a little if you are planning to DMM Persist Divine Power.

This all depends on what level you are planning to start at and if you are going the DMM route.

Yeah, I am going DMM simply to fill one of the damaging roles. I was originally a wildshape Ranger with an obscene amount of health, but the Cleric ditched the campaign so we need a fresh support.

Fortunately religion and race requirements are being waived (we are all human by default), and I am starting at level 11, full WBL.

If I can I'd like to know if anyone has a method or formula for enhancing my relics (assuming it's allowed, so I don't have to figure it myself).

[Draz74]

If I can I'd like to know if anyone has a method or formula for enhancing my relics (assuming it's allowed, so I don't have to figure it myself).

Technically I don't think the rules even say that they're any different from other ammunition in this regard. Since following this rule leads to utter brokenness, "Ask your DM" is the answer.

It wouldn't be too crazy to treat them as +2-equivalent weapons, and enhance them starting from that base.

[Snowbluff]

Technically I don't think the rules even say that they're any different from other ammunition in this regard. Since following this rule leads to utter brokenness, "Ask your DM" is the answer.

It wouldn't be too crazy to treat them as +2-equivalent weapons, and enhance them starting from that base.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking about doing. I am using this to have a way of not having to retrieve arrows anyway, and the DM should be fine with is as long as it cost me something.

As for properties and bonuses, how does Greater Magic Weapon work with Enh Bonus? Enhancement bonuses don't normally stack, do they? Does the same go for my Bull's Str and Righteous Might?

[Keld Denar]

Righteous Might gives a Size bonus to Str, not an enhancement bonus, so it stacks.

As far as the enhancement bonus on Raptor Arrows, no, it would not stack with the enhancement bonus on the bow. If you had the True Believer feat, or sacrificed an appropriate level spell slot, the Bane property would activate. The Bane property explicitly stacks with the normal enhancement bonus on a weapon, so it would add to whatever enhancement is on your bow.

[Snowbluff]

Righteous Might gives a Size bonus to Str, not an enhancement bonus, so it stacks.

As far as the enhancement bonus on Raptor Arrows, no, it would not stack with the enhancement bonus on the bow. If you had the True Believer feat, or sacrificed an appropriate level spell slot, the Bane property would activate. The Bane property explicitly stacks with the normal enhancement bonus on a weapon, so it would add to whatever enhancement is on your bow.

Did I say Righteous Might? I meant Divine Power :P

Yes, the Enh bonus would not stack with the bow's, but I am wondering if the Enh from Greater Magic weapon would stack with the Raptor Arrows' Enh bonus :P

[Keld Denar]

No. It would replace the enhancement bonus on the arrows. Again, however, the Bane bonus would stack with the enhancement bonus from the arrow.

Raptor Arrows are normally a +1, right? If you have True Believer, they are +2 Bane Arrows. If you cast Greater Magic Weapon on one of them, say...at CL20, it would become a +5 Bane arrow. If you shot an Evil Outsider with it, it would be a +5 Bane: Evil Outsider arrow, and get a +7 enhancement bonus vs that Evil Outsider. It would be exactly the same if you cast GMW on the bow, instead of the arrow, since the bow bestows it's enhancement bonus on the arrow (which goes through the same stacking operation).

Does that answer your question WRT stacking?

[Draz74]

Raptor Arrows are normally a +1, right?
Correct.

If you have True Believer, they are +2 Bane Arrows.
Nope, still +1. At least if you're using the officially updated version (Magic Item Compendium).

[Gotterdammerung]

Cloistered cleric combined with the skillful enhancement (complete arcane) and the knowledge devotion feat (complete champion) can make a mean archer.

Especially if you add in collision enhancement (XPH) for +5 untyped damage.

The Holy warrior reserve feat (complete champion) and the war domain for a +4-+9 untyped damage bonus.

And prayer bead caster lvl bump GMW's

+24 damage once you have 9th lvl spells for Holy warrior. Then you can add in Str damage and buff damage on top of that.

Edit: nvm you wouldn't need skillful with the DMM persist divine power.

Collision Splitting would be your best bet.

[Snowbluff]

Does that answer your question WRT stacking?

Thanks! ^^


Cloistered cleric combined with the skillful enhancement (complete arcane) and the knowledge devotion feat (complete champion) can make a mean archer.

Especially if you add in collision enhancement (XPH) for +5 untyped damage.

The Holy warrior reserve feat (complete champion) and the war domain for a +4-+9 untyped damage bonus.

And prayer bead caster lvl bump GMW's

+24 damage once you have 9th lvl spells for Holy warrior. Then you can add in Str damage and buff damage on top of that.

Edit: nvm you wouldn't need skillful with the DMM persist divine power.

Collision Splitting would be your best bet.

Thanks for the tips. I don't know much about archery, so every little bit helps ^^

[Keld Denar]

I like Exit Wounds. Its a +1d6 untyped damage (so, slightly lower than Collision, doesn't multiply on a crit), but if you can line up your shots properly, you get an extra couple of attacks every so often, which means you can deal geometrically more damage.

Its not like archers have a lack of precision, afterall, assuming you don't have a Power Attack mechanic with your shots.

[chaotician375]

Not so much a buff for ranged combat but look at the high tension long bow in the srd. Its like a regualr longbow (or composite) it costs x4 the original price (300 for a regular, 400 for composite) and deals 2D8 instead of on. if u have the gold and ability scores for a +5 str the composite high tension longbow is 2D8+5 damage, thats pretty nice.

[Gotterdammerung]

I like Exit Wounds. Its a +1d6 untyped damage (so, slightly lower than Collision, doesn't multiply on a crit), but if you can line up your shots properly, you get an extra couple of attacks every so often, which means you can deal geometrically more damage.

Its not like archers have a lack of precision, afterall, assuming you don't have a Power Attack mechanic with your shots.

I typically don't go with exit wounds because I like to do magic carpet archers. And therefore my shots dont usually line up. But I have seen Exit wounds put to good work by archers b4 and splitting exit wounds can get pretty insane.


As for buffs, Righteous wrath of the faithful will give a haste like extra attack and a +3 moral bonus to hit and damage

Divine Agility= a +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity.


Recitation= a +2 luck bonus to ac/ atk rolls/ and saving throw. +3 if you worship the same deity as the caster.

Brilliant Blade can be useful situationally to grant the Brilliant energy property to 50 arrows.

The pact spells can be situationally interesting as well.

Then there is some lower lvl stuff like Blessed aim and then there is the normal PHB stuff like Divine Power, ect ect.

Arguably Girallion Arms could allow you to fire 2 bows at once, but I don't even want to think about the mechanical logistics of such shenanigans.

[Urpriest]

Arguably Girallion Arms could allow you to fire 2 bows at once, but I don't even want to think about the mechanical logistics of such shenanigans.

If you're going to go with multiple arms, Draconic Polymorph (Arrow Demon) is a safer route.

[Snowbluff]

Not so much a buff for ranged combat but look at the high tension long bow in the srd. Its like a regualr longbow (or composite) it costs x4 the original price (300 for a regular, 400 for composite) and deals 2D8 instead of on. if u have the gold and ability scores for a +5 str the composite high tension longbow is 2D8+5 damage, thats pretty nice.

I am using a Bow of the Wintermoon, as it comes with an accommodating variable tension.

EDIT: I'll talk to my DM about making everybow's tension variable, so I can use your suggestion.


I typically don't go with exit wounds because I like to do magic carpet archers. And therefore my shots dont usually line up. But I have seen Exit wounds put to good work by archers b4 and splitting exit wounds can get pretty insane.


As for buffs, Righteous wrath of the faithful will give a haste like extra attack and a +3 moral bonus to hit and damage

Divine Agility= a +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity.


Recitation= a +2 luck bonus to ac/ atk rolls/ and saving throw. +3 if you worship the same deity as the caster.

Brilliant Blade can be useful situationally to grant the Brilliant energy property to 50 arrows.

The pact spells can be situationally interesting as well.

Then there is some lower lvl stuff like Blessed aim and then there is the normal PHB stuff like Divine Power, ect ect.

Arguably Girallion Arms could allow you to fire 2 bows at once, but I don't even want to think about the mechanical logistics of such shenanigans.

First of all, screw you, Divine Agility! I got Zen Archery an no mad, lousy spell!

As for Recitation, that looks to be a nice one to acquire. Too bad about its relatively high spell level.

Brilliant Blade is worthless. If I am not power attacking I should NEVER have a problem hitting something. Weapon of Energy would be a much, much better alternative.

Righteous Wrath is another terrible suggestion, as the morale bonus only affects melee. The extra attack doesn't stack with haste, a much better spell I could buy a wand for, or obtain otherwise.

That being said, can I get the source for pact spells?


If you're going to go with multiple arms, Draconic Polymorph (Arrow Demon) is a safer route.

Where can I find Draconic Polymorph?

Also, can someone describe to me how a properly done attack should look with the Manyshot/Rapidshot, etc?

[Keld Denar]

The bonus attack from Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is also melee only, so that's a no go on archery.

Honestly, about one of the best archery buffs is a high CL Divine Favor. +3 bonus on damage that stacks with everything. Quicken it as a 5th level spell, or Persist it naturally as a 7th level spell.

EDIT: you can't combine Rapid Shot with Multishot. Multishot takes a standard action to perform, while Rapid Shot only functions as part of a full round action. I wouldn't bother with Multishot. Instead, focus on Rapid Shot and maybe pick up the Woodlands Archer tactical feat from Races of the Wild.

[Gotterdammerung]

First of all, screw you, Divine Agility! I got Zen Archery an no mad, lousy spell!

As for Recitation, that looks to be a nice one to acquire. Too bad about its relatively high spell level.

Brilliant Blade is worthless. If I am not power attacking I should NEVER have a problem hitting something. Weapon of Energy would be a much, much better alternative.

Righteous Wrath is another terrible suggestion, as the morale bonus only affects melee. The extra attack doesn't stack with haste, a much better spell I could buy a wand for, or obtain otherwise.

That being said, can I get the source for pact spells?

I was sleepy and I was going from memory so I missed that zealot pact and Righteous wrath don't work on ranged weapons. Sorry about that.


I said brilliant blade was situational and I still believe that. Most times you won't need accuracy. But occasionally you will. Sometimes monsters just have insane AC's and sometimes you might want to cast a buff on yourself that lowers your accuracy. It isn't a bad spell to have during those times.

Recitation is 4th lvl. I didn't think that was too high considering Divine Power was already mentioned and it is also 4th.


The Mad vs. Sad is not so cut and dry on cleric archers. So I listed divine agility just as a possible tool. If you are going to do zen archery then the extent of your archery feats should be point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and woodland archer. This way your dex never has to be above 13.

Some more spell suggestions:

Weapon of the Deity can be an alternative to GMW if you persist it AND your deities favored weapon is a bow. Above 12th caster lvl WotD has a faster enhancement progression than GMW. And it will add in an extra +1 enhancement ability (you GM has to assign an appropriate one to it.)


Because you have a bow that adjusts for strength.
Miracle can be used to cast Giant Size of the Wu Jen list. +16-+32 size modifier to str depending on caster lvl. 3 to 5 size category increases. This effectively becomes your version of power attack, with its -2 to -8 size penalty to attack in exchange for large jumps in damage.

[Snowbluff]

I was sleepy and I was going from memory so I missed that zealot pact and Righteous wrath don't work on ranged weapons. Sorry about that.


Recitation is 4th lvl. I didn't think that was too high considering Divine Power was already mentioned and it is also 4th.


The Mad vs. Sad is not so cut and dry on cleric archers. So I listed divine agility just as a possible tool. If you are going to do zen archery then the extent of your archery feats should be point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and woodland archer. This way your dex never has to be above 13.

Some more spell suggestions:

Weapon of the Deity can be an alternative to GMW if you persist it AND your deities favored weapon is a bow. Above 12th caster lvl WotD has a faster enhancement progression than GMW. And it will add in an extra +1 enhancement ability (you GM has to assign an appropriate one to it.)


It's okay, dude. Thanks for the help ^^

Recitation is going on the list of persisted party buffs, especially since luck bonuses are hard to come by. :D

The whole MAD thing for cleric archery isn't such a big issue, but being able to dump Dex to 13 is great, and saving the Turn Attempt for other buffs would be better.

The Problem with WotD is that it won't work on my Raptor Arrows (which get 2 more Enh and omni-bane), and I am only only enchanting my bow for bonus effects (It's +1 splitting right now).

I am also dipping incarnate and Sapphire Hierarch to Nerf myself (the DM tossed me a few more levels for covering multiple roles at once), but the Melds don't stack for damage, so I'll be using them for defenses. If you have any tips, I'd be happy to learn them ^^

[Igneel]

Collision Splitting would be your best bet.

Now here is a interesting thought that comes to mind when I think about the Splitting weapon ability;

Effect: Any arrow or bolt fired from a splitting weapon magically splits into two missiles in mid-flight. Both missiles are identical, sharing the nonsplitting properties of the original missile; for example, a +1 splitting arrow splits into two +1 arrows in mid-flight.

So if you go by the text, this means you only need to purchase one Raptor Arrow and from then on you can keep firing then retrieving the splitted arrows to get quivers worth of arrows as long as you have the bow and a single arrow.
I'm going to have to put that down for possible build ideas if I ever try to play a archer again. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Now here is a interesting thought that comes to mind when I think about the Splitting weapon ability;


So if you go by the text, this means you only need to purchase one Raptor Arrow and from then on you can keep firing then retrieving the splitted arrows to get quivers worth of arrows as long as you have the bow and a single arrow.
I'm going to have to put that down for possible build ideas if I ever try to play a archer again. :smallwink:

O.O You should note you don't have to retrieve them, they restring themselves every round... but yeah... You can also you this to prevent losses for using more powerful ammunition.

[mikau013]

So if you go by the text, this means you only need to purchase one Raptor Arrow and from then on you can keep firing then retrieving the splitted arrows to get quivers worth of arrows as long as you have the bow and a single arrow.
I'm going to have to put that down for possible build ideas if I ever try to play a archer again. :smallwink:

Actually the text indicates that both arrows lose the splitting property.

[Snowbluff]

Actually the text indicates that both arrows lose the splitting property.

Yes, but if your BOW has it, you can keep making ammo.

I just had a funny thought. I'm going to have hundreds of these things by the time I am done in a day. Imagine a Cleric sitting around shooting arrows at forsaken souls only to end with twice as many falling around at this feet every time.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you seen this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0

[Snowbluff]

Have you seen this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0

Not until now, but I have read DM's Cleric Handbook. I pulled Divine Might from this one. Might fit in my build, and Cha is easy to stack.

[Igneel]

Yes, but if your BOW has it, you can keep making ammo.

I just had a funny thought. I'm going to have hundreds of these things by the time I am done in a day. Imagine a Cleric sitting around shooting arrows at forsaken souls only to end with twice as many falling around at this feet every time.

And then you can flood the market by selling them to any devoted clergy or share them with your companions. After all, its not like you are going to be needing any time soon.

[Gotterdammerung]

The Problem with WotD is that it won't work on my Raptor Arrows (which get 2 more Enh and omni-bane), and I am only only enchanting my bow for bonus effects (It's +1 splitting right now).

Why wouldn't it stack?

Bane specifically states that the enhancement is 2 higher than the normal enhancement.

And Bows transfer there bonuses onto arrows.

If you have a +2 splitting collision flaming bow and you fire a +1 ghost touch arrow the arrow splits into two +2 collision flaming ghost touch arrows.

If you have a +1 splitting collision bow and you cast WotD on it and it becomes a +5 keen splitting collision bow and then you fire a raptor arrow out of that bow then the raptor arrow splits in two and you end up with two +5 keen collision bane (your target) returning (with special parameters) raptor arrows. Because your target activates the bane effect these arrows now become +7 keen collision bane returning raptor arrows.


The bow applies its properties to the ammunition. It does not replace the arrows properties. If an arrow has abilities on it, those abilities stay. The bows properties are added in addition to the arrows properties. Straight enhancement bonuses do not stack so the highest of the two becomes the final bonus. But ability enchantments do stack.


Since the bow makes the arrow a +5 arrow and since bane says "+2 better than it's normal enhancement." The raptor arrows bump to +7.

[Urpriest]

Where can I find Draconic Polymorph?


Draconomicon. It's Sorc/Wiz-only, so you'd need some Anyspell-based shenanigans or the like. Its main benefit over Polymorph is that it's persistable. The real gem is the Arrow Demon (MM III), with Ex abilities like Close Combat Shot (AOOs with Bows), Oversized Weapons (a size increase never hurts, eh?), and Symmetrical Archery (take a -2 on attack rolls to double the number of attacks. Yes, double). Become one of those any way you can. Use PAO if you have to.

In terms of Divine Agility not being useful, Druids have a fun spell called Owl's Wisdom (Spell Compendium) that gives half caster level to Wis for an hour. Insight bonus, so it stacks with your Periapt of Wis and the like. Can be cast on others, so works if you have a Druid ally too.