A "Save vs Melee" character

[Morph Bark]

I'm currently working on my back-up character for our current campaign. As of yet he's an Unseelie Fey Magic-Blooded Human Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard. As such, when he stands next to someone, they will get a -8 penalty to saves. Due to wanting to pump his Charisma, I will be rather neglecting his Strength and Dexterity. This is no problem for me as there are others in the party plenty capable of dealing damage.

Hence my idea of wanting to instead utilize my save-penalty-inducing powers and make my targets submit to save after save after save. The Hexblade and Blackguard might have some spells fit for that, but he will not be able to cast any higher than level 1 tops. I know that in the past I've come across feats that made targets suffer save vs nausea/fear/fatigue after attacking them in melee, but can't for the life of me find them now.

Could anyone tell me where to find those feats, or direct me to other, similar measures or abilities I could use here?

[Flickerdart]

With an Aptitude weapon, you would be able to benefit from Boomerang Daze. Three Mountains nauseates targets with morningstars, greatclubs or maces, but it has 4 crappy feat prerequisites.

[deuxhero]

As a Blackguard, you have poison use (also as a few you have Charming the Arrow, which gives cha to attack on bow damage rolls)

[SirFredgar]

As a Blackguard, you have poison use (also as a few you have Charming the Arrow, which gives cha to attack on bow damage rolls)

Charming the Arrow is only for attack, not for damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fear effects. Get Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) if possible, otherwise Frightful Presence in the Draconomicon (page 106) is decent, and get Ability Focus for whichever one you take. Put max ranks in Intimidate, get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and take Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. You could actually switch from Human to Half-Orc, get one level of Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon), and grab Menacing Demeanor via the Otyugh Hole (CS), maybe even grab a second level of that with Extra Rage and Intimidating Rage (CW). Some Fighter levels for Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) would also be in order if you can fit it into the build. If you can find an economical way to get access to the spell Aura of Terror (Divine Crusader + UMD a Runestaff + DMM: Persist) it would be a huge benefit.

You make them Shaken with your frightful presence. When you Intimidate a Shaken opponent they become Frightened, so get Combat Reflexes and maybe Stand Still. With Imperious Command an Intimidated opponent will cower for a round and then be Shaken on the following round, or Frightened if they were already Shaken. If you Intimidate an opponent every round, they'll be cowering the entire encounter, and they'll be Shaken when you do it again and take an extra -2. Never Outnumbered lets you Intimidate everyone once per encounter, or maybe twice if you get Uncanny Trickster.

[Morph Bark]

With an Aptitude weapon, you would be able to benefit from Boomerang Daze. Three Mountains nauseates targets with morningstars, greatclubs or maces, but it has 4 crappy feat prerequisites.

The boomerangs are ranged weapons and thus would provoke AoOs, since I need to be within 10 ft to apply the save penalties, which is part of this whole idea, so its not ideal.


As a Blackguard, you have poison use (also as a few you have Charming the Arrow, which gives cha to attack on bow damage rolls)

Hmm, point. I'd have to get a way to cheaply make poison then though. Which likely won't still be all that cheap.


Fear effects. Get Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) if possible, otherwise Frightful Presence in the Draconomicon (page 106) is decent, and get Ability Focus for whichever one you take. Put max ranks in Intimidate, get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and take Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. You could actually switch from Human to Half-Orc, get one level of Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon), and grab Menacing Demeanor via the Otyugh Hole (CS), maybe even grab a second level of that with Extra Rage and Intimidating Rage (CW). Some Fighter levels for Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) would also be in order if you can fit it into the build. If you can find an economical way to get access to the spell Aura of Terror (Divine Crusader + UMD a Runestaff + DMM: Persist) it would be a huge benefit.

You make them Shaken with your frightful presence. When you Intimidate a Shaken opponent they become Frightened, so get Combat Reflexes and maybe Stand Still. With Imperious Command an Intimidated opponent will cower for a round and then be Shaken on the following round, or Frightened if they were already Shaken. If you Intimidate an opponent every round, they'll be cowering the entire encounter, and they'll be Shaken when you do it again and take an extra -2. Never Outnumbered lets you Intimidate everyone once per encounter, or maybe twice if you get Uncanny Trickster.

Oohh, very handy! Dreadful Wrath likely won't be allowed, but I could use Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered. I'll see with regards to Frightful Presence.

Thanks, that's one of the things I needed. :smallsmile:

Now I just need to get more of that kind of stuff, but for non-fear effect kinds of things!

[deuxhero]

Give your fiendish companion Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) and all plant poisons are opened.

[Flickerdart]

The boomerangs are ranged weapons and thus would provoke AoOs, since I need to be within 10 ft to apply the save penalties, which is part of this whole idea, so its not ideal.
Nah, you would be using a sword or whatever. It would just pretend to be a boomerang because of Aptitude.

[kardar233]

Doesn't Unseelie Fey aura scale by Charisma bonus, so you should have a higher than -8 penalty?

You can get cheap poison by investing a feat in Hidden Talent: Psionic Minor Creation.

Building on Fear effects and Blackguard's Sneak Attack, try Ghost-Faced Killah Killer for a SoD on-hit and a very fancy AoE Fear that scales with Power Attack.

If you can get plenty of Sudden Strike you can apply it all to Feared opponents by Avenging Executioner.

The Snatch Trophy+Bloodsoaked Intimidate tree is nice for free Intimidates. Combine with Zhentarim Fighter or Dread Pirate/Scarlet Corsair for AoE Intimidate.

See Captain Four Fingers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10609622&postcount=104) for application of fear effects.

[dextercorvia]

Stand Still will keep them from leaving your threatened area. Knight's Challenge: Test of Mettle is a favorite. Hidden Talent: Stomp will let you use your Cha again. And, prone enemies are suffering from decrease AC/Attack bonus.

[Ernir]

Get a Sudden Stunning weapon (DMG2). Dirt cheap, cha-based, level-scaling save or be stunned. The Stunning Surge (MIC) enhancement is an inferior (read:more sane) version of it.

[Morph Bark]

Give your fiendish companion Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) and all plant poisons are opened.

Not high enough level for a fiendish companion, but could take that myself. I recall there being an extensive list in one of the books on all the poisons, anyone know where I could find it? Off the top of my head the only veggie poison I know is Black Lotus Venom.


Doesn't Unseelie Fey aura scale by Charisma bonus, so you should have a higher than -8 penalty?

Ohey, that's correct! I thought it was fixed at -2. That means I could just ditch Blackguard (saves will be high enough anyway), which will free up feats. The Snatch Trophy line looks interesting, but maybe for a different character. Most of the other characters are Good and one is even a Paladin and I'm trying to keep on the down-low for that reason. (The character will play up the Lawful edge more than the Evil side anyway.)


Stand Still will keep them from leaving your threatened area. Knight's Challenge: Test of Mettle is a favorite. Hidden Talent: Stomp will let you use your Cha again. And, prone enemies are suffering from decrease AC/Attack bonus.

Stand Still, marked down as one of his feats now, along with Combat Reflexes. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Test of Mettle could be great, but I'd have too few Knight levels to really make use of it. I know there are some Devoted Spirit maneuvers (or was that Stone Dragon?) that help with the "stick to a target/don't let them get away" idea.

[prufock]

Intimidating Strike and Brutal Strike make a target save or be shaken (encounter) and sickened (1 round) respectively. They can be used together. There's an extra -4 to saves for you. The former requires some ranks in intimidate and the latter requires power attack.

Personally I rule that the paladin of tyranny and blackguard auras don't stack, since they are the same name and essentially the same ability. I know that isn't necessarily true of all groups, but my 2 coppers.

I'd suggest grabbing a 1-level dip in binder at some point, Improved Binding feat, then Knight of the Sacred Seal. You can get Dahlver-Nar for Maddening Moan (Will vs Daze) and Focalor for Aura of Sadness (another -2). If you can get 2nd-level spells somehow, you could also try Anima Mage to pump both binding level and caster level.

EDIT: Also, if you like the Test of Mettle idea and don't want to bother with Knight levels, grab the Goad feat. It does almost the same thing (not quite as good), but the save is based on you character level instead of levels in any one class. With all your penalties, enemies should be failing this save fairly regularly.

[dextercorvia]

Test of Mettle could be great, but I'd have too few Knight levels to really make use of it. I know there are some Devoted Spirit maneuvers (or was that Stone Dragon?) that help with the "stick to a target/don't let them get away" idea.

Remember, you are pumping charisma, and getting it twice to save DC's. You will have something like an effect DC 30 check to those near you. The fact that it is onlyDC 22 for those enemies out to 100 feet still means that you should pick up a couple of them.

Edit: It also uses a swift action, I don't thing you have many swift action abilities yet.