OOTS #840 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Halleflux]

Awesome, as always.

Gives me an idea for a Kobold cannon trap...

[Chess Tyrant]

:smallbiggrin:

Wonder what Roy's going to think of this, though.

Edit: also, has Haley not been keeping her Search skill maxed? Wouldn't that be, like... stupid?

[zimmerwald1915]

:vaarsuvius: Bah, he has d8 hit dice. He was in no real danger. :vaarsuvius:

[Deth Muncher]

Oh Giant. You so funny. We all knew it was going to happen - poor Roy just tried to delude himself into thinking it wouldn't.

[Tundar]

Oh, "the" tool?
How evil.

[Tannhaeuser]

Poor Yuk-yuk! I am almost beginning to feel sorry for him.

[Rising Phoenix]

:vaarsuvius: Bah, he has d8 hit dice. He was in no real danger. :vaarsuvius:

d6 actualy. This is 3.5 after all...

[zimmerwald1915]

d6 actualy. This is 3.5 after all...
YY has Ranger levels, and they have d8.

[Crisis21]

*Facepalm*

Oh, Haley, you should never neglect your old skills...

[Saeyan]

Poor Yuk-yuk! I am almost beginning to feel sorry for him.

When he wakes up...
:smalleek:

[Arancaytar]

V said he would do it as long as V gave him "the directive to search for traps to the best of his ability". Then he issued him the "proper mental commands"...

[Shonen Hero]

*snerk* Not sure if Yukyuk's the right 'tool' for the job, but his blundering is funny all the same. :smallbiggrin:

[Teucros]

Hehe...another great strip.

Actually,tat was rather similar to the basic trapfinding method in a previous campaign of our group. The opoor fighter had become a crash dummy.

[lothos]

So... what is Haley spending those ranks on if she hasn't been keeping her search skill maxxed out ? Or is it just that she doesn't want to take the risk anyway, even with a maxxed out search skill ?

Certainly her bluff ranks don't seem to be lacking.... meshes nicely with what she said back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html) (7th Panel) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) (4th Panel).

"I'll just put these bulky magic items over here so they don't get in his way...". That's definitely Haley thinking ahead.

Also - loved the title. Is he a masterwork thief's tool ?

Nice comic.... again. Thanks Rich !

[JoseB]

I'm surprised that Yuk-Yuk is still dominated, after everything he's had to go through. I guess he must have truly abysmal saves...!

[Illven]

You know I'm actually a bit surprised Haley's okay with it. She worked to free slaves from under Tarquin's grasp, but it's okay do it to Yukyuk. I know Yukyuk was an enemy, but it just seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[Dr._Demento]

So... what is Haley spending those ranks on if she hasn't been keeping her search skill maxxed out ? Or is it just that she doesn't want to take the risk anyway, even with a maxxed out search skill ?

No, I don;t think she has, so hmmm.

Also, I love Roy's dawning realization, and everyone else's straight faces.

[zimmerwald1915]

So... what is Haley spending those ranks on if she hasn't been keeping her search skill maxxed out ? Or is it just that she doesn't want to take the risk anyway, even with a maxxed out search skill ?
Well, Haley being Haley she will always and forever max Bluff and Sense Motive. Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: Local would all have served her well as a Resistance leader.

[Skavensrule]

He finds traps the same way as Nodwick; The way a stick disarms a beartrap.

[Mando Knight]

Another parallel the guy has with Belkar: no ranks in a skill that his class is known for...

[ss49]

Yep. Roy may be in trouble next time he dies.

ETA: But how is this different from using the various Charm/ Dominate Person/ Monster spells in-game? Do the higher Summon Monster spells summon sentient critters to fight for the party?

[factotum]

She's probably not been keeping Search maxed because it isn't a particularly useful skill when you're first fighting a war and then being the leader of the Resistance--stuff like Move Silently etc. are far more useful in those situations. She hasn't had that many opportunities to level up since she left Azure City, either.

[KingFlameHawk]

Man every new strip with Yuk-Yuk just keeps reenforcing my idea that he is going to kill Belkar in the end (and V if this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)is an indication)

[zimmerwald1915]

She's probably not been keeping Search maxed because it isn't a particularly useful skill when you're first fighting a war and then being the leader of the Resistance--stuff like Move Silently etc. are far more useful in those situations. She hasn't had that many opportunities to level up since she left Azure City, either.
Not to mention her existing Search skill was already demonstrably high enough to find all the secret doors she needed to find in Azure City.

[Juggling Goth]

I think we just established that Roy had better never find out about Mr Scruffy's litter box.

[kreszantas]

Kobold is best served... well done...

[eilandesq]

He must have rolled a 1--have him try again until he gets it right.

Sincerely,

The Mr. Scruffy Fan Club

[horngeek]

*snerk*

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! :smallbiggrin:

[Starwulf]

Great comic as always, but, dayumn, I am really starting to feel kinda bad for that Kobold. I mean, yeah he shot Mr. Scruffy, and I was screaming for his death, but after he got, well..ya know, I think he's paid his price, cuz I"m pretty sure I'd rather be dead then what he had to endure, lol.

[Diadem]

I must say this whole slavery thing isn't sitting very well with me. I'm glad Roy doesn't like it either, but it's surprising that Haley (or Durkon!) doesn't mind.

I wonder what Roy is going to do now though.

[PebbleInTheSky]

So, only Roy objects to the treatment of YukYuk, and at that, he was able to be talked out of it. Though that almost certainly won't work a second time.

I wonder how attached the rest of the Order will get to their new bulter. Better not get too comfortable.

Great work as always, Giant!

[QDI]

I'm pretty sure Yuk Yuk has no Rogue levels... He just got sneak attacks another way and Haley conveniently supposed otherwise.

[Anarion]

That was a great comic. Amusing and classic joke on trapfinding, yet just a touch scary as well. Truly kobolds are the punching bags of the D&D universe (or in light of other threads perhaps I should say they're usually the punching bags of the universe).

I also love interactions between V and Haley. You can tell that they understand each other, without having to say anything. It's so sweet how they both understand the advantage of sending the kobold head first into the traps without needing to say it.

[MaximKat]

I don't think "maxxed out" is spelled like that.

[zimmerwald1915]

So, only Roy objects to the treatment of YukYuk, and at that, he was able to be talked out of it. Though that almost certainly won't work a second time.
It's not exactly surprising. Roy's only made one morally questionable decision in his life after all. :smallsigh:

[nonamearisto]

This is the second D&D webcomic I've seen in which a kobold triggers traps by humorous means. The first was in "Will Save World For Gold."

http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=142 and the next page .

[Blisstake]

Oh, this is going to spawn some morally justified threads for sure.

[Narren]

Not to mention her existing Search skill was already demonstrably high enough to find all the secret doors she needed to find in Azure City.

Except for the ones that she never found :smalltongue:

[Onyavar]

V said he would do it as long as V gave him "the directive to search for traps to the best of his ability". Then he issued him the "proper mental commands"...

Well, that wasn't necessarily V's fault. I believe that Yy really did search to the best of his abilities - which is simply "walk and spring the traps". Maybe he even has a good search skill, but no ranks in disarming traps.
Or he was always relying on the dog of his to do his search...

[eusticepious]

What are the odds that draketooth reaacts negatively to the events in this strip, either by scrying, because he has a relationship with YukYuk, etc.

[Draz74]

Yeah, I don't think V was being intentionally vindictive here. Either Yukyuk just has terrible Searching capabilities despite being a Rogue/Ranger (possible), or since V gave him liberty to determine the "best way" to search for the traps, he took the opportunity to try to end his own life.

I favor the latter theory, since I think V's explanatory line was intended to lead up to it.

[A Weeping Angel]

Also, I love Roy's dawning realization, and everyone else's straight faces.

Priceless and great strip.

[Killer Angel]

Roy is pissed and stares at haley, but it was V. who gave the "proper mental command" to the kobold...
That's a step toward the deep end of alignment pool, V.!

[the_tick_rules]

The kobold has earned his keep with style. Why wouldn't Haley keep her search maxed? Isn't that like alot of what rogues do?

[Mr.Christie]

Yukyuk must have the highest constitution for all kobolds, most likely a 12.

[cc_kizz]

I don't think "maxxed out" is spelled like that.

I'd noticed that too, but the really tiny writing made it slightly harder to see that. :smallamused:

Poor little guy. I'm wondering about the command that Vaarsuvius gave now…

[RMS Oceanic]

The kobold has earned his keep with style. Why wouldn't Haley keep her search maxed? Isn't that like alot of what rogues do?

It depends on your DM's style. If they don't use traps at all, Search sounds superfluous and putting a few ranks into climb sounds attractive.

I liked Elan's reaction to the trapfinding.

[Berserk Knight]

Technically, Haley never said anything about disarming anything; only searching/finding.
If V just relayed those exact commands, the directives would be "searching and finding" the traps, not "search, find, and if possible, disarm" the traps.
Also, even if the orders did include 'disarming' traps, 'avoid tripping' traps isn't included anyway. (Attempting to disarm a trap which you are not skilled enough to do so would trip it anyway.)
Besides, V stated 'to the best of his abilities', in which case, since a search check could always fail if the DC is high enough, the best way to search for traps would be to walk in and trip them all, although, if you just walk in from the very beginning, you might never have the chance to even detect the ones at the back if you don't live long enough to reach them.
...Then again, the directives still didn't include 'survive'...

[Burner28]

So how long before someone questions the alignment of what V did?:smalltongue:

[Pheldagriff]

V has shown before that he cares nothing for the kobold (litterbox incident).
I strongly believe he just gave the "proper" commands, meaning sending the kobold straight up the stairs without instructing him to search for traps

[ManuelSacha]

So how long before someone questions the alignment of what V did?:smalltongue:

Why? What's there to question? Do you have any doubt? :smallconfused:

[YohanLeafheart]

V is getting more and more evil.

[Mastikator]

Well at least one of the ostensibly good members is finding using a slave as a meatshield as ethically questionable. Starting to root for Yukyuk snapping out of it and killing one of them. Preferably Belkar, or V.

[djcowell]

Not necessarily. My favorite rogue maxxed not only search and disable, but also bluff. So even if the DM never used a single trap, the other characters (not necessarily players) endlessly heard about how I disabled 15-20 per dungeon... they just couldn't see them because they weren't trained. :smallwink:

But this sytem works well too for enchanters...

Back to the strip, if Roy is going to get this serious about his Lawful Good status, when does he pick up the Paladin level for the sake of opening a prestige class?


It depends on your DM's style. If they don't use traps at all, Search sounds superfluous and putting a few ranks into climb sounds attractive.

I liked Elan's reaction to the trapfinding.

[Hamiltonz]

I don't care if it's morally ambivalent. It's still funny :)

[OPM]

Man every new strip with Yuk-Yuk just keeps reenforcing my idea that he is going to kill Belkar in the end (and V if this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) is an indication)


I'm betting on the other kobold. Personally, I sort of expected Kill-Kill to get a double KO.

Rich will probably surprise us somehow, but I'm expecting that too ;-)


They've got what? Something like two weeks (1 day/level) during which to abuse him... and V can probably keep that going with further spells. But I tend to agree that he'll go out with some sort of bang.

[Idhan]

The whole "send someone expendable (or poke around with a 10-foot pole, etc) to set off the trap instead of disarming it" thing works for an abandoned tomb or something, where the only thing traps do is attack whoever activates them, but it's a foolhardy idea when trying to infiltrate a guarded site. A trap could alert the site's personnel to the presence of intruders -- and then it doesn't matter whether you set it off personally or your 10-foot pole did it. (A trap might even be set up to alert site personnel without letting the intruders themselves know they've tripped anything.)

On the other hand, the OotS is trying to contact Girard's people, so setting off alarm traps might be a good thing for them, provided Girard's people don't shoot first and ask questions later.


*Facepalm*

Oh, Haley, you should never neglect your old skills...

Pfft. Next thing you'll be telling Roy that those cross-class ranks in knowledge (architecture and engineering) aren't useful, and that he should keep his ride skill maxed instead or something.


Back to the strip, if Roy is going to get this serious about his Lawful Good status, when does he pick up the Paladin level for the sake of opening a prestige class?

Doesn't Roy take pride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) in the fact that being lawful good is a choice for him, not a necessity if he wants to keep his class features? P.S.: what prestige class?

[Burner28]

Why? What's there to question? Do you have any doubt? :smallconfused:

It was actually a joke.

[lothos]

I don't think "maxxed out" is spelled like that.

Sorry, my ranks in Spelling are definitely not maxxed out :-)

It is spelt that way in strip 412 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html) (7th Panel).

Also, if you wanted to have it completely as maximised as possible, perhaps it should be maxxxxxxxxxxxxxxed out ? More X's must mean it's better.....

Or perhaps if it's maXXed out, then it's dead ? :-)

[skaddix]

V is getting more and more evil.

well the archfiends did say they have good odds of getting V's soul anyway.

[Murray]

V is getting more and more evil.

You sure it isn't Darth Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) that you should be worried about?

...In defense of Haley & Vaarsuvius, Yuk Yuk is the only NPC present, and that seldom bodes well...

[Messenger]

Any chance you're homaging Aaron Williams' Nodwick, Giant? I mean, Yuk Yuk isn't a henchman, but the Order is using him to haul stuff around and even set off traps- that's the Nodwick treatment. :smallbiggrin:

[Icedaemon]

You know I'm actually a bit surprised Haley's okay with it. She worked to free slaves from under Tarquin's grasp, but it's okay do it to Yukyuk. I know Yukyuk was an enemy, but it just seems a bit hypocritical to me.

This is similar to my train of thought. Is every significant character except Tarquin's party (and I guess Roy and Elan) a complete speciesist?

[St Fan]

Any chance you're homaging Aaron Williams' Nodwick, Giant? I mean, Yuk Yuk isn't a henchman, but the Order is using him to haul stuff around and even set off traps- that's the Nodwick treatment. :smallbiggrin:

Nodwick being a parody of the usual treatment of henchmen within a D&D party, it's more like the humor being taken from the same source. Being the token NPC amongst your typical adventurers is never a good idea.

[ti'esar]

On the other hand, the OotS is trying to contact Girard's people, so setting off alarm traps might be a good thing for them, provided Girard's people don't shoot first and ask questions later.

Yeah, because that's a really plausible assumption with what we've seen of Girard.

[Icedaemon]

Roy is pissed and stares at haley, but it was V. who gave the "proper mental command" to the kobold...
That's a step toward the deep end of alignment pool, V.!

A 'step towards' implies that it is not already well within that said end and just in denial.


Nodwick being a parody of the usual treatment of henchmen within a D&D party, it's more like the humor being taken from the same source. Being the token NPC amongst your typical adventurers is never a good idea.

True, but is it not plain in Nodwick that Yaegar and Artax are less than good individuals themselves? Piffany is the extreme end of neutral good, yes, but Artax is a clear true neutral with maybe a handful of good tendencies and Yaegar is chaotic neutral with a fair share of evil ones. That this sort of thing is humourous does not change it being less than nice.

[ti'esar]

A 'step towards' implies that it is not already well within that said end and just in denial.

V is definitely in denial about her alignment issues. I'm not sure why people have been acting like this is some big shock the last few strips.

The bigger question here is why Yukyuk is still dominated. Either his saves are truly abysmal, or he really is a closet masochist.

[Quild]

Reminds me old strips :p

:xykon: Sacrificing minions, is there any problems it CAN'T solve? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html)

And if you wonder what are the chances there are traps left, they are :
:xykon: Pretty good, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html).

[Starwulf]

Roy is pissed and stares at haley, but it was V. who gave the "proper mental command" to the kobold...
That's a step toward the deep end of alignment pool, V.!

I'll disagree with that, there is a good chance V believed the Kobold was in fact a rogue, or had levels in rogue, especially since he did in fact use Sneak Attack. I don't think your alignment can take a hit if do put someone into harms way unknowingly.

[Kish]

None of the Order (except possibly Elan) is stupid enough to not realize that the reason for Yukyuk rather than Haley looking for the traps, is that he's more expendable.

The bigger question here is why Yukyuk is still dominated. Either his saves are truly abysmal, or he really is a closet masochist.
As a ranger-with-a-couple-levels-of-rogue and a massive Wisdom penalty, Yukyuk's Will save would indeed by abysmal. Just like Thog's.

Or Belkar's.

[Psionic Dog]

Huh, I must be crazy because my first thought wasn't:

"Heh, V's expendable trapfinder"

but rather

"Wow, that kobold has a death wish. He must be desperate to end his domination by any means."

[Omergideon]

OK, I do not plan to say whether or not anyone is morally justified with the dominated Kobold. But we can see the reasoning for them keeping him mind controlled as he IS an enemy. What I like about the moral quandry presented in the comic is that we are not handed an answer. The scenario is presented, and some of the issues raised. But the answer is not given. I like that in a moral discussion in fiction. It makes it a good way to provoke thnking, without preaching about a certain viewpoint.

But onto the comic itself. I liked this one. A decent amount. More seems to happen than the smell comic. It also has some decent jokes, but moreso in the Orders reactions. Not for what happened to YukYuk. I will try to keep my personal feelings on the situation out of the review, so I will lay them out here. I personal think it is wrong to use YukYuk as a walking trap detector. A carrying mule is one thing. It is debateable. But to have him risk death with no real chance of keeping safe.......while mind controlled......it seems wrong to me. Mind controlled but safe is one thing. Mind controlled and sent almost to his death is another. So now that is out the way some other points.

The Good:
1) The presentation of the moral issue is a great one. As I said it is not preachy, not overly serious but has enough stuff presented to make us think. The correct solution I leave to you. But the issue is addressed in a great way.
2) Now again I will skirt over the slapstick with YukYuk. The responses and actions of the characters were comedic gold to me. Elan of course was great, and Haley got some decent laughs. And Roy's slow realisation was excellently in character and very well done. In addition the slow build to the final panel was excellently paced and very skillfully drawn out.
3) And generally I like them having to face traps and the like again. The whole feel of the recent comics is a great throwback to the classic Dungeon Crawling Fools of the start. A nice bit of nostalgia. IT also means a different feel for the recent arc than previously, keeping things fresh and interesting. The danger of having similar and/or very long arcs is they may become overplayed. This shifting keeps it fresh and interesting. I repeated myself but the point is clear.

The Bad:
No big issues. Just a minor wish to get to the rest of the story faster, but it does not mean too much when what we get is good.

So yeah. I liked this strip. It was strongly entertaining and have a good event. Plus it made me think. A jokey strip that makes us think. That is good. *** is my verdict. I liked it a lot.

[Gusion]

Oh, V.

Welcome back to the deep end of the alignment pool.

[Kareasint]

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the Kobold does not have his search skill maxed either. He was searching to the best of his ability. He just was not finding any traps. Some rogues choose to set up skills towards to be thugs instead of search and locate.

I loved the cat's reaction here. "ABANDON KOBOLD!"

This strip reminded me of the old Hero Quest board game. During a game that I ran, one guy that played the warrior would often run down long stretches of hallway yelling "Doofus find trap!"

[hamishspence]

I will try to keep my personal feelings on the situation out of the review, so I will lay them out here. I personal think it is wrong to use YukYuk as a walking trap detector. A carrying mule is one thing. It is debateable. But to have him risk death with no real chance of keeping safe.......while mind controlled......it seems wrong to me. Mind controlled but safe is one thing. Mind controlled and sent almost to his death is another.

BoED does have some pointed things to say about the correct treatment of prisoners (including those under mind control) which apply here.


A 'step towards' implies that it is not already well within that said end and just in denial.
Given that The Giant said V was Neutral only a short time ago- "steps toward the deep end" are a good way of referring to it.

V is True Neutral (http://ow.ly/6fgbi)

And I like the strip.

[dogfish44]

Ouch, that won't feel good in the morning. Poor YukYuk :-D

Classwise...Hmm... Ranger with excess Precision Damage, and rides a mount to move more than 10 Ft / Turn.

I'm most definitely betting on YukYuk being a Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter, if all of those are core.

[Kgw]

So, now they have two useless rogues/rangers who cannot find their own feet without a map, haven't they? :)

[ThePhantasm]

I have to say, Roy is awesome. Its great having him in the strip as the straight guy not just in terms of jokes, but also in terms of morality.

[Kish]

Classwise...Hmm... Ranger with excess Precision Damage, and rides a mount to move more than 10 Ft / Turn.

I'm most definitely betting on YukYuk being a Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter, if all of those are core.
They aren't. Of that description, only the word "Ranger" is. And he did say "Sneak Attack," not just "Precision Damage."

He's a mostly-ranger with as many levels of rogue as Belkar has of barbarian.

[hamishspence]

I'm most definitely betting on YukYuk being a Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter, if all of those are core.

Scouts aren't- they're in Complete Adventurer.

But noncore classes, like Warlocks (Complete Arcane), have made appearences.

[KoboldRevenge]

I like them their pretty, colorful sound effects. :smallbiggrin:

[Crod]

This seems like a decoy. If Belkar smelled humans, them where are they?

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder what Blackwing has to say about all this. On one hand, he's trying to veer V away from the deep end of the alignment pool and Yukyuk is a "brother," but on the other hand he seems to care about Mr. Scruffy (giving him the Belt of Giant Strength).
This is similar to my train of thought. Is every significant character except Tarquin's party (and I guess Roy and Elan) a complete speciesist?I don't think anyone in the Linear Guild, besides Yikyik, has ever displayed speciesist attitudes. In fact, they've always been the most diverse party. Compare that to Tarquin's party, which seems to be 2/3 human.

[Omergideon]

BoED does have some pointed things to say about the correct treatment of prisoners (including those under mind control) which apply here.

I have never read the book and, to be frank, when adding my own views on an ethical dilemma I will almost inevitably ignore rulebooks like that. Now it may have some good advice to follow, and provide nice ideas. But when determining if I think a certain act is right/wrong.........the BoED is not going to be a factor.

But out of curiosity, what does it say?

[DigoDragon]

Well, any triggered trap you can walk away from... :smallamused:

[Gusion]

1. I think a lot of people are missing the point of the comic. Yukyuk isn't actually searching for traps - V just told him to walk up the stairs. This episode doesn't actually address his actual search capability at all.

2. What is the other magic gear on the rug? Yukyuk's crossbow, certainly... and something else?

[Gift Jeraff]

1. I think a lot of people are missing the point of the comic. Yukyuk isn't actually searching for traps - V just told him to walk up the stairs. This episode doesn't actually address his actual search capability at all.

2. What is the other magic gear on the rug? Yukyuk's crossbow, certainly... and something else?His other crossbow.

[Mixt]

Yet more evidence that V is "PURE EVIL INCARNATE!"

That thing is an abomination against reality, it must die! For the good of everything it must be removed from existence!

[Chantelune]

Uh, I don't see anything being really "evil" there. Haley did the most logical choice for the group safety as a rogue : she's aware that her search skill isn't maxed due to the fact that since the first dungeon, they barely set a foot in another dungeon afterall and her adventure were more on the "city rogue" side. Social skills are more usefull in those situations. So as she's not confident in her capacity to find and disarm the traps, she find safer to send the supposedly rogue kobold to do it as he might have a higher search skill than her and as an enemy, him being badly hurt or killed is still better than another member of the Order.

As for V's command, it's hard to determine if she did order YukYuk to "search trap the best of his ability" or just to walk up the stairs. If she give the search command, it still possible that Yuk Yuk search skill is even more lousy than Haley. We don't know how many rogue level he have and he might have taken them only for the sneak attacks and neglected the trap-finding side.

The fact that he just walk up the stairs can be because Yuk Yuk has as much idea about the way to find traps than Belkar about tracking. Or it can be an indication than V did order him to just walk up the stairs.

[Nogster]

There's a lot of morally righteous people here. Send the kobold or my dear friend, teammate, and party companion into possible death? Haley sucks at finding traps and Roy should know that better than anyone! To me this is a no-brainer and frankly I think it's immoral to send Haley when this option is at the ready. The world is at sake, but I guess as long as you can go to bed feeling pretty about yourself that's more important.

Nevermind the fact that this is a world where the characters are fully aware of the concept of 'hit points' and YY is high level and probably won't die from anything he sets off. Hell, I'd heal him back up and send him again to check for more.

[hamishspence]

I have never read the book and, to be frank, when adding my own views on an ethical dilemma I will almost inevitably ignore rulebooks like that. Now it may have some good advice to follow, and provide nice ideas. But when determining if I think a certain act is right/wrong.........the BoED is not going to be a factor.

But out of curiosity, what does it say?

No torturing of prisoners, they must be treated as kindly as possible (within the bounds of practicality).

No killing prisoners out of hand.

Also- a person under mind control counts as a helpless prisoner for these purposes.

There's lots more in the BoED- mostly to do with when violence is OK (in self defense, in defense of others, and execution for serious crimes) and when its not OK (if there's no "just cause", for revenge, and so on).

"Treating other people with respect in relationships" gets a mention.

In general, it goes quite well with the overall picture of Good alignment in the PHB.

What tends to tick people off is when it suggests that "evil acts are always evil no matter how Good the cause" or offers tools that seem like they're ignoring these principles (poisons and diseases that only work on Evil beings, and magical spell to change a being's whole outlook toward Good - specifically, the same type of good (alignment) that the caster follows).

[Tulya]

Huh. That's a disturbing new level of lack of optimization for the party, and surprisingly uncharacteristic.

Banning Conjuration I can see. The main opposition is rooted in metagaming, and is not necessarily relevant to a purely in-character decision. But neglecting a staple skill that make a Rogue roguish? Something that allows a trained thief like Haley to detect the traps in the way of a successful heist (including alarms)? That seems extremely bizarre.

In fairness to Haley, the suite of "staple" skills for a "traditional" Rogue typically exceeds the skill points you get from being a Rogue alone, and it's not like the other skills are worthless. Even a smart Human like Haley, who probably gets ~11 skill points per level after the first probably can't afford to keep everything maxed and still grab supplemental skills. I still question her priorities, though.

[Phishfood]

I'll have you know I copyrighted that method of checking for traps years ago.

[The Pilgrim]

Good to know taht Roy still keeps some morals

[factotum]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy's next move is likely to be, "Screw this, dispel the Domination and let the kobold go, now!"?

[Quild]

Uh, I don't see anything being really "evil" there. Haley did the most logical choice for the group safety as a rogue : she's aware that her search skill isn't maxed due to the fact that since the first dungeon, they barely set a foot in another dungeon afterall and her adventure were more on the "city rogue" side. Social skills are more usefull in those situations.

Still, in Origins of PCs, Haley explains to V the importance of adventures, rather than studying. After a few months adventures, Haley had became more proficient at lockpicking, although she hadn't even saw a lock during her trip.
She made a lot of xp since the first dungeon, and could (and should) have improved her trap skills.

[hamishspence]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy's next move is likely to be, "Screw this, dispel the Domination and let the kobold go, now!"?

Wouldn't be entirely surprising, given how Roy reacted to the notion of selling prisoners into slavery here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html

Effectively, that's the state Yuk-yuk's in now- and his masters (Belkar & V) seem cruel even for slaveowners.

[HandofShadows]

New use for a meat shield.

[HandofShadows]

Effectively, that's the state Yuk-yuk's in now- and his masters (Belkar & V) seem cruel even for slaveowners.

Not really equal situations. Those slaves where not trying to kill the Order or anyone else.

[hamishspence]

The two I'm talking about (Samantha and her dad) had tried to kill the Order- yet Roy rejects the notion of abusing them in the same way.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not really equal situations. Those slaves where not trying to kill the Order or anyone else.Samantha very clearly tried to kill the Order.

[Tev]

There's a lot of morally righteous people here.
...
Hell, I'd heal him back up and send him again to check for more.
You've gotta be kidding me . . .

Yes, the comedy was hillarious. But you can't ever argue this was not evil act. Maybe not too much (he is not low level after all -> nice hp, you can heal him right after etc.), but principle is clear - someone else being hurt just because I wanted to (they did not even buff him to mitigate any dmg)

edit: unless as some people said here YY just wants to off himself / he really had no search points and just walked into traps willingly

It is surely going to backfire somehow . . . unless:

Am I the only one who thinks Roy's next move is likely to be, "Screw this, dispel the Domination and let the kobold go, now!"?
pretty much what was my first thought.

[B. Dandelion]

Haley: Well he's not choosing to carry our carpet or let a cat ride on his head, but it's a little late to get hung up on that now!

Honestly, Roy, you genuinely found that persuasive? I really hope they don't keep this up in the name of "well after the other crap we've already done to him we might as well."

[Burner28]

Yup. He did. Believe it.



What tends to tick people off is when it suggests that "evil acts are always evil no matter how Good the cause" or offers tools that seem like they're ignoring these principles (poisons and diseases that only work on Evil beings, and magical spell to change a being's whole outlook toward Good - specifically, the same type of good (alignment) that the caster follows).

How unsurprising.Seriously how could the author have that it was a good idea to write that?:smallannoyed:

[zimmerwald1915]

How unsurprising.Seriously how could the author have that it was a good idea to write that?:smallannoyed:
Why jump straight to the author? The supervisor, editor, and goodness knows what positions WotC and Hasbro have in their heirarchies have some say in what goes into the product. That somehow all these people screwed the pooch enough to let this travesty happen is a sadder commentary than "oh, they hired a sub-par author".

[Michaeler]

Roy found it a convincing argument to compel a rogue to use his skills to search for traps. Not to compel a rogue to go and set off traps and get himself blown up.

But yeah, Roy's already objected to the idea of sending the kobold to set off traps so now they've done it he'll likely intervene.

[pendejochy]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy's next move is likely to be, "Screw this, dispel the Domination and let the kobold go, now!"?

I think Yukyuk is going to take some more abuse before we get any sort of payoff for this. I doubt Roy would make V get rid of the Domination, since YukYuk might get mad and decide to attack the party, or go try to rejoin with the Linear Guild.

I bet he'll be more vehemently opposed to using Yucks as a sacrificial lamb in the future though and might directly command V to not let him get abused.

Also, couldn't the party just ASK YukYuk if he had sufficient ability to search for traps? If he was dommed, he wouldn't be able to lie about it.

[Quild]

You've gotta be kidding me . . .

Yes, the comedy was hillarious. But you can't ever argue this was not evil act. Maybe not too much (he is not low level after all -> nice hp, you can heal him right after etc.), but principle is clear - someone else being hurt just because I wanted to (they did not even buff him to mitigate any dmg)

edit: unless as some people said here YY just wants to off himself / he really had no search points and just walked into traps willingly

It is surely going to backfire somehow . . . unless:

pretty much what was my first thought.

Well... If the mental order was for YY to search for traps with to the best of his abilities, and if YY had no particular abilities into searching traps, he acted as suggested ordered.

Now, we can wonder if Haley and V were buying Haley's own hypothesis about YY being a rogue.

Either they were :
Is sending an evil dominated kobold with rogue skills detect traps when no one in your party can, evil?

Either they weren't :
Is sending an evil dominated kobold without rogue skills trigger traps rather than someone in your party, evil?

I guess the answer to both would be yes, but it's seems to me that anyone neutral could totally do that, right?

[cloudland]

Dominate are a very crude spell. It does not allow much control over the dominated target. Hence Yukyuk simply cannot do action that require significant thought or skill, even if he have max search. V certainly know this, and I guess Haley know this too. Roy and Durkon probably isn't aware of that, that's why they okay with it at first. I'm sure there would be some argument next strip.

[Burner28]

Why jump straight to the author? The supervisor, editor, and goodness knows what positions WotC and Hasbro have in their heirarchies have some say in what goes into the product. That somehow all these people screwed the pooch enough to let this travesty happen is a sadder commentary than "oh, they hired a sub-par author".

Don't forget laughable!

Anyways, back to the alignment debate strip. So is anyone thinking Roy is seriously going to give Vaarsuvius a hard time for what she/he did?

[Michaeler]

Dominate are a very crude spell. It does not allow much control over the dominated target. Hence Yukyuk simply cannot do action that require significant thought or skill, even if he have max search. V certainly know this, and I guess Haley know this too. Roy and Durkon probably isn't aware of that, that's why they okay with it at first. I'm sure there would be some argument next strip.

Alternatively it's possible that none of them knew, judging by the expressions on their faces.

[Themrys]

Haley: Well he's not choosing to carry our carpet or let a cat ride on his head, but it's a little late to get hung up on that now!

Honestly, Roy, you genuinely found that persuasive? I really hope they don't keep this up in the name of "well after the other crap we've already done to him we might as well."

Yes...of a genuinely good character, I'd have expected so say "You're right, that was wrong - I'll carry the carpet and the cat from now on. And now go and look for traps, or I'll do it myself".

The OotS is becoming too evil for my taste. The occasional evil in former strips (not punishing Belkar, for example) was bad enough, but now they're being evil all the time.

I wonder...why doesn't Durkon say anything? Isn't he lawful good, too?

[Tev]

I guess the answer to both would be yes, but it's seems to me that anyone neutral could totally do that, right?
Yes, even for chaotic good* (Haley) it's not such a big deal, since nobody expected him to die even after setting off multiple traps, but still it's very dark humor, and Roy will be rightfully pissed . . .

edit: * my guess, I have not that much experience with D&D so it's my interpretation of alig.system

[zimmerwald1915]

Anyways, back to the alignment debate strip. So is anyone thinking Roy is seriously going to give Vaarsuvius a hard time for what she/he did?
Probably. Don't expect it to take up much more than eight panels of the next strip though. It's not like the Order has the luxury of debating their actions on an internet forum all day: they've got a paranoid guardian to fail to find and a Gate to fail to safeguard.

Here's a question. V knows she has trouble with abusing power. Given this knowledge, how forseeable was it at the time she dominated him that she would end up abusing Yukyuk? I don't believe the possibility was seriously raised or debated at the time on the boards, mostly because everyone was distracted by "kobold machine gun".

[Michaeler]

"Was this evil" is the wrong question.

"What is a non-evil response?" is a better question. The evilness or non-evilness of the action so far is based on what each member of the order expected to happen, the evilness or non-evilness of their response is based on what they know just happenned. Moral ambiguity just rolled a natural 1 and ceased to have any further impact on the situation.

[sims796]

There's a lot of morally righteous people here. Send the kobold or my dear friend, teammate, and party companion into possible death? Haley sucks at finding traps and Roy should know that better than anyone! To me this is a no-brainer and frankly I think it's immoral to send Haley when this option is at the ready. The world is at sake, but I guess as long as you can go to bed feeling pretty about yourself that's more important.

Nevermind the fact that this is a world where the characters are fully aware of the concept of 'hit points' and YY is high level and probably won't die from anything he sets off. Hell, I'd heal him back up and send him again to check for more.

Agreed. Oh, boo hoo, that poor, poor kobold. The reason that she probably isn't up in arms about keeping it as a slave is because it purposly tried to kill the Order dozens of times over. It isn't comparable to Tarquin or Redcloak keeping a bunch of weak, innocent citizens as slaves doing back-breaking labor or fighting to the death for their amusement.

Jeez, it's like the Order has to be squeaky cleam or something.

[Burner28]

Here's a question. V knows she has trouble with abusing power. Given this knowledge, how forseeable was it at the time she dominated him that she would end up abusing Yukyuk? I don't believe the possibility was seriously raised or debated at the time on the boards, mostly because everyone was distracted by "kobold machine gun".

That's actually interesting point you have brought up. Maybe V will remember that fact before she/he goes too far. At least that's how I see it. I don't really think V is going to end up doing something major like killing little dragons that she/he didn't know did anything wrong again.

[B. Dandelion]

Roy found it a convincing argument to compel a rogue to use his skills to search for traps. Not to compel a rogue to go and set off traps and get himself blown up.

Yes, but he knew it was dangerous. When the traps start going off, he doesn't get annoyed until he's realized Yukyuk didn't even have a chance to disarm them. Haley convinced him to let Yukyuk put himself at risk on the basis of the fact that they'd already set him to some other menial, but harmless task, so it was too late to get worked up about the ethical considerations of his lack of choice.

It gets a bit perilously close to "if we've already abused him we may as well continue to abuse him because we've done too much to take it back now." It's a hole with no bottom.


But yeah, Roy's already objected to the idea of sending the kobold to set off traps so now they've done it he'll likely intervene.

Unless he falls for it again.


Yes...of a genuinely good character, I'd have expected so say "You're right, that was wrong - I'll carry the carpet and the cat from now on. And now go and look for traps, or I'll do it myself".

The OotS is becoming too evil for my taste. The occasional evil in former strips (not punishing Belkar, for example) was bad enough, but now they're being evil all the time.

I wonder...why doesn't Durkon say anything? Isn't he lawful good, too?

I think they'll either shape up or karma will smack them hard for it. By this point we're being encouraged to question the morality of their actions, so I don't think they'll be able to just keep it up without repercussion.

I wondered where Durkon was too. He's not even on panel (except for the first), it's odd.

[Castamir]

neglecting a staple skill that make a Rogue roguish? Something that allows a trained thief like Haley to detect the traps in the way of a successful heist (including alarms)? That seems extremely bizarre.
The campaign she's in did not have a single trap in months, putting skill points elsewhere is quite reasonable.

I think Haley even underestimates the time -- I can't remember a single trap since the first book.

[Arrowstorm122]

So, I'm a little confused, who exactly, if anybody, is to blame for Yukyuk's hard ways to disarm the traps?

[zimmerwald1915]

Agreed. Oh, boo hoo, that poor, poor kobold. The reason that she probably isn't up in arms about keeping it as a slave is because it purposly tried to kill the Order dozens of times over. It isn't comparable to Tarquin or Redcloak keeping a bunch of weak, innocent citizens as slaves doing back-breaking labor or fighting to the death for their amusement.

Jeez, it's like the Order has to be squeaky cleam or something.
What comic are you reading? Yukyuk tried to kill two members of the Order (V and Scruffy), once each. But he's also a mercenary who fell in with Nale for the money, something V should have heard him state while she was sneaking up behind him. They could have offered him more gold than Nale did - and he knows they can - and gotten a hireling out of it. Instead, V chose to hide this information from the rest of the Order and keep Yukyuk Dominated so she could do horrible things to him and let horrible things happen to him.


That's actually interesting point you have brought up. Maybe V will remember that fact before she/he goes too far. At least that's how I see it. I don't really think V is going to end up doing something major like killing innocent little dragons again.
As far as we know, she physically can't do such a thing. But the cosmic powers that be sweat the small stuff too. And my point was that this was forseeable.

[Quild]

"Was this evil" is the wrong question.

"What is a non-evil response?" is a better question. The evilness or non-evilness of the action so far is based on what each member of the order expected to happen, the evilness or non-evilness of their response is based on what they know just happenned. Moral ambiguity just rolled a natural 1 and ceased to have any further impact on the situation.

That's why I've taken into account either if they expected YY to detect or to trigger traps, and that the alternative was Haley's failing at detecting traps (and maybe trigger some), or Roy trigger traps. But Roy is lawful idiot *snickers*.

I believe Roy is the only one whom really should have alignment troubles sending YY, and bluffing him was necessary. But the carpet&cat reason was totally lame.

But couldn't YY had sent somehow mental messages to V that he can't detect traps?

[sims796]

What comic are you reading? Yukyuk tried to kill two members of the Order (V and Scruffy), once each. But he's also a mercenary who fell in with Nale for the money, something V should have heard him state while she was sneaking up behind him. They could have offered him more gold than Nale did - and he knows they can - and gotten a hireling out of it. Instead, V chose to hide this information from the rest of the Order and keep Yukyuk Dominated so she could do horrible things to him and let horrible things happen to him.

The same one you are. He was an enemy that attacked the Order who worked for the Linear Guild, one of their more persistent enemies. I'm not one to play a bunch of hypothetical "what ifs", but if we will, what if he was another Z, who would betray them when it's most convenient? Why should they decide to waste time un-Dominating him just to offer him a job? That seems like a massive waste of time and long lasting Domination.

Again, the Order must remain as clean as possible, as any negative action they do shall instantly raise a crapload of morally justified threads.

[Michaeler]

But couldn't YY had sent somehow mental messages to V that he can't detect traps?

I don't think he could have without a command, but there were certainly less explodey ways that V could have ascertained whether he could do it or not.

[Quild]

I don't think he could have without a command, but there were certainly less explodey ways that V could have ascertained whether he could do it or not.

I was thinking about something like in #835, where V talks about YY's silent screams.

Maybe he's really masochist, or thought he could detect the traps but failed :p.

[sims796]

I ain't saying that it was cool to throw the helpless enemy to the tiger's den like that, although it isn't something that I wouldn't have done.

[Themrys]

That's actually interesting point you have brought up. Maybe V will remember that fact before she/he goes too far. At least that's how I see it. I don't really think V is going to end up doing something major like killing little dragons that she/he didn't know did anything wrong again.

Before s/he goes too far?

Just because it wasn't as impressive doesn't mean making the kobold eat **** wasn't "going too far".

The dragon had threatened to kill AND soulbind V's family. V killed the dragon and it's family and didn't soulbind them.

The kobold, on the other hand, had no intention to do anything else than kill V and be done with it.
V keeps him as a slave, humiliates him in the worst manner V can probably imagine, and makes him do something that could kill him. Also, I don't think s/he won't kill him after he outlives his usefulness.

I would like to see that deed measured in kilonazis. In my opinion, V has become even more evil after that dragon thing. Disproportionate revenge for a threat to kill hir defenseless family is one thing, disproportionate revenge for trying to kill hir in battle - something the OotS does all the time with goblins, etc - is another.
Here, V makes a rational, cold-blooded decision to do evil things.


Of course, the deva's warning would have been a red herring if nothing like that had happened...I guess it was to be expected.

[PebbleInTheSky]

What comic are you reading? Yukyuk tried to kill two members of the Order (V and Scruffy), once each. But he's also a mercenary who fell in with Nale for the money, something V should have heard him state while she was sneaking up behind him. They could have offered him more gold than Nale did - and he knows they can - and gotten a hireling out of it. Instead, V chose to hide this information from the rest of the Order and keep Yukyuk Dominated so she could do horrible things to him and let horrible things happen to him
I'm not saying what V did was right, but seriously? Anyone who will sell out his team for you will sell you down the river too. Tarquin, for example, could make a better offer than the order ever could. That would pose a completely unacceptable level of risk to the Order. Who are out to save the world, I might add.

[suszterpatt]

Dungeon Crawling 101: let the person with Evasion go first! :D


Love the rate of updates by the way. You'd think Mr. Burlew is busy rolling around in his million dollars. :P

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Quild]

Before s/he goes too far?

Just because it wasn't as impressive doesn't mean making the kobold eat **** wasn't "going too far".

The dragon had threatened to kill AND soulbind V's family. V killed the dragon and it's family and didn't soulbind them.

The kobold, on the other hand, had no intention to do anything else than kill V and be done with it.
V keeps him as a slave, humiliates him in the worst manner V can probably imagine, and makes him do something that could kill him. Also, I don't think s/he won't kill him after he outlives his usefulness.

I would like to see that deed measured in kilonazis. In my opinion, V has become even more evil after that dragon thing. Disproportionate revenge for a threat to kill hir defenseless family is one thing, disproportionate revenge for trying to kill hir in battle - something the OotS does all the time with goblins, etc - is another.
Here, V makes a rational, cold-blooded decision to do evil things.


Of course, the deva's warning would have been a red herring if nothing like that had happened...I guess it was to be expected.

V is true neutral and can thus go both ways.
Are these acts toward YY so evil? Considering that the sapphire guard used to make prisonners, to put Mark of Justice on them (with so stupids triggering conditions that most paladins wouldn't last longs if they had this mark themselves), that Hinjo offered to prisonners to defend the city and join the fight for sentence reduction (yeah I know, prisoners had the "choice", but I don't think those who refused were evacuated).

YY is suffering V's payback, which surely isn't a good act, but it looks far from defining V evil to me.

[LordRahl6]

Another one strip piece on the "Virtues" on using people as tools. Rich's discussion on the Lawful alignment is interesting. I'm Sure Roy is preety pissed at Haley and V about now thanks to their deceit.:smallamused: However, it DID save haley from "taking 20." :smallwink:

[t209]

I think Yuk Yuk has same allocation of points as Belkar (Good Archery but not trap finding).

[Tulya]

Agreed. Oh, boo hoo, that poor, poor kobold. The reason that she probably isn't up in arms about keeping it as a slave is because it purposly tried to kill the Order dozens of times over. It isn't comparable to Tarquin or Redcloak keeping a bunch of weak, innocent citizens as slaves doing back-breaking labor or fighting to the death for their amusement.

Jeez, it's like the Order has to be squeaky cleam or something.

Not squeaky clean. They have to strive to be good constantly to be Good. Failure is an acceptable outcome, but failing to try is not. Edit: Mind, this is not relevant to the members of the Order who have no interest in being Good.

Abandoning a friend, as a single event, could have cost Roy the Good afterlife. Only the recognition of its wrongness and attempting to rectify it allowed the impact of the event to be significantly diminished. Even then, it was still a black stain on his record.

A lack of respect for the dignity and wellbeing of sentient creatures is a very quick road to Neutrality or Evil, even if the results of your actions or lack of actions weren't seriously harmful.

[Astrella]

Don't worry guys, torture is a-ok when the good guys do it.

[AutomatedTeller]

It's kind of an ongoing joke that the non-Roy members of the Order generally do things that are suboptimal. Belkar, the parties tracker, can't track. Haley has, as far as I can tell, never found a trap. Durkon has spell problems - either with preparation or his accent. Elan is Elan. V - well, in day to day things, V is pretty competent.

[rbetieh]

So, I'm a little confused, who exactly, if anybody, is to blame for Yukyuk's hard ways to disarm the traps?

Well, YukYuk is. If V ordered him to do it to the best of his abilities, and he never put any points into search, it is not like anyone would have known that was the case until right this point. What I dont get is what skills are so important that a Ranger/Rogue who should be getting a big bag o skills every level felt he could forget search? Maybe this is a "bad guys come in afterwards, when all the traps are disarmed" mentality?

[LordRahl6]

The whole point of the current arc is the meaning of Lawful. Rich is not only pointing out that it is NOT alright for any to torture anyone, but that Lawful is really a state of mind to have an Orderly outlook.

[Tulya]

Well, YukYuk is. If V ordered him to do it to the best of his abilities, and he never put any points into search, it is not like anyone would have known that was the case until right this point. What I dont get is what skills are so important that a Ranger/Rogue who should be getting a big bag o skills every level felt he could forget search? Maybe this is a "bad guys come in afterwards, when all the traps are disarmed" mentality?

Search tends to be "max or don't bother". If you aren't specced to disable traps, you might as well not bother. YukYuk seems like the kind of ranger inclined to summon/handle animals to their doom scouting for traps. (Edit: Which would make his current fate poetic, but not really appropriate for good characters to inflict this way.)

I could easily see him specializing as a dog-riding bounty hunter, investing in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, and Survival as his top priorities.

[rbetieh]

The whole point of the current arc is the meaning of Lawful. Rich is not only pointing out that it is NOT alright for any to torture anyone, but that Lawful is really a state of mind to have an Orderly outlook.

I agree but would like to take it a step further. It looks like the Chaotics in this comic have no problem taking liberties with peoples freedoms, just like the Evils do. Time for a good ol "You are no better than I" villain exposition....

[Cynric]

Hah! Make him do it again!

[Mastikator]

Don't worry guys, torture is a-ok when the good guys do it.

I'm starting to question if they even qualify as "the good guys" after these past few strips.
First it was slavery and torture with Durkan not objecting at all, now using using YY as cannon fodder and Roy only raising the question of whether it's unethical, but then allows it.

[silvadel]

Hmmm Haley is nothing if not "self-protective" smart -- she knows she might have search enough to find a few hobgoblin traps but against epic stuff while not keeping up with the maximum search and not having magic items to aid it.

She wasnt about to risk her life on it.

[zimmerwald1915]

The same one you are. He was an enemy that attacked the Order who worked for the Linear Guild, one of their more persistent enemies. I'm not one to play a bunch of hypothetical "what ifs", but if we will, what if he was another Z, who would betray them when it's most convenient? Why should they decide to waste time un-Dominating him just to offer him a job? That seems like a massive waste of time and long lasting Domination.

Again, the Order must remain as clean as possible, as any negative action they do shall instantly raise a crapload of morally justified threads.
What you said was that Yukyuk had gone after the Order "dozens of times". This is patently false. Hell, I would shy away from defining "the Linear Guild" as an enemy of the OOTS organizationally-speaking, given how fluid the membership of that team is. There's a reason people number the incarnations. Sure, Nale, Sabine, and Thog keep showing up, and they are the core of the Guild. They are invested in the escalating cycle of petty revenge, as is Z. But Hilgya hasn't come back to bother the OOTS, and neither have Leekey and Pompey. Yikyik and Yokyok didn't really have a choice. Only Z has left the Linear Guild (not of his own volition, I might add) and returned. Finally, YY couldn't have been a new Z and V had no reason to think he was, because he explained his motives, which were not at all similar to Z's, out in the open with V in a position to hear them.

As for why they would "waste time" ending the domination and looking to secure his help or non-interference by other means, well, they should have done so because this abuse was forseeable. And because Dominations, unless you renew them, eventually end. At the end of the Domination, you have made an implacable enemy where there wasn't necessarily one before, and now either have to endure his interference or kill him. In the meantime you have subjected a sentient being not only to the indignity of being Dominated, but also to physical danger.


I'm not saying what V did was right, but seriously? Anyone who will sell out his team for you will sell you down the river too. Tarquin, for example, could make a better offer than the order ever could. That would pose a completely unacceptable level of risk to the Order. Who are out to save the world, I might add.
Tarquin, as far as the Order is concerned, is not their enemy at this time. And if the concern was making sure YY didn't interfere in their plans, they could have ended the Domination and left him with the squishies. What is going on here is completely gratuitous humiliation and reckless endangerment, and in order to try and make an argument from necessity you have to ignore all the varied options open to the Order that would not have resulted in such.

[Omergideon]

Agreed. Oh, boo hoo, that poor, poor kobold. The reason that she probably isn't up in arms about keeping it as a slave is because it purposly tried to kill the Order dozens of times over. It isn't comparable to Tarquin or Redcloak keeping a bunch of weak, innocent citizens as slaves doing back-breaking labor or fighting to the death for their amusement.

Jeez, it's like the Order has to be squeaky cleam or something.

Someone already gave a response but I will too.

But first, thanks Hamishpence. Some basic ideas there, and I appreciate it.

Anyways, onto factual errors. The kobold engaged with the Order on a single occasion, in a single ambush, as an enemy combatant. He was cruel to Mr Scruffy yes, but otherwise attacked once. Not dozens of times over. So this is a factual error.

Be that as it may it is not a major one, as the Kobold had attacked the order and has proven himself to be a cruel individual. And so I can see the arguement for keeping him dominated. It reduces the active enemy forces and keeps a real (not merely potential, but actual) enemy from fighting them. I personally would simply dump his ass in the nearest city, perhaps handed over to the authorities IF they were remotely trsutworthy. But I see the logic of keeping him around and dominated in the de facto state of war they are in with the Linear Guild.

But at present he is harmless. Therefore to use him as a meatshield is to show a casual and blatant lack of regard for a sentient being that is in some ways troubling. The point is that YukYuk cannot threaten them at present, and so AT PRESENT is a non-combatant. He is comparable to a civilian. One who needs to be restrained, but to kill such is against all known "just war" statutes.

And whether he deserves punishment for past crimes or not, none of the Order are a legitimate civilian or military quthority was any kind of jurisdiction in this case. For them to engage in such, even if believable, is vigilantism of the extreme sort. That is, punishing wrongdoers using their own ethics, affeted and clouded by personal feelings. It is comparable in principle (if not in scope) to a lynch mob, or Pratchetts "rough justice".

This is why I do not think it good to use him as a meat shield, or trap device. And I would think it possible to likely Roy objects in a major way next strip.



And hey, I don't need the order to be squeaky clean. V's going off the deep end was a fantastic thing for the character, and made hir far more interesting. But I am also free to say "I think action x was immoral" without demanding the characters all be paragons.

[silvadel]

Wouldn't be entirely surprising, given how Roy reacted to the notion of selling prisoners into slavery here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html

Effectively, that's the state Yuk-yuk's in now- and his masters (Belkar & V) seem cruel even for slaveowners.

Wow and you actually get to see V smile in 172... Been a LONG time since we have seen V smile....

Oh and Roy "failed" a sense motive.... Bluffs against stodgy PCs are useful when you have a LG in a party that is more flexible.

[The MunchKING]

Well, YukYuk is. If V ordered him to do it to the best of his abilities.

I'm of the opinion that's a big IF...

[Skavensrule]

The campaign she's in did not have a single trap in months, putting skill points elsewhere is quite reasonable.

I think Haley even underestimates the time -- I can't remember a single trap since the first book.

She did pick locks in 262 & 263. I thought one of the strips with the resistance mentioned her trap skills as well but I can't find it or it was in DStP as a bonus page.
I am almost positive that she did use her skills in the bonus story in DStP to break into Grubwigglers, but without my books I can't check for certain.

[sims796]

What you said was that Yukyuk had gone after the Order "dozens of times". This is patently false. Hell, I would shy away from defining "the Linear Guild" as an enemy of the OOTS organizationally-speaking, given how fluid the membership of that team is. There's a reason people number the incarnations. Sure, Nale, Sabine, and Thog keep showing up, and they are the core of the Guild. They are invested in the escalating cycle of petty revenge, as is Z. But Hilgya hasn't come back to bother the OOTS, and neither have Leekey and Pompey. Yikyik and Yokyok didn't really have a choice. Only Z has left the Linear Guild (not of his own volition, I might add) and returned. Finally, YY couldn't have been a new Z and V had no reason to think he was, because he explained his motives, which were not at all similar to Z's, out in the open with V in a position to hear them.

As for why they would "waste time" ending the domination and looking to secure his help or non-interference by other means, well, they should have done so because this abuse was forseeable. And because Dominations, unless you renew them, eventually end. At the end of the Domination, you have made an implacable enemy where there wasn't necessarily one before, and now either have to endure his interference or kill him. In the meantime you have subjected a sentient being not only to the indignity of being Dominated, but also to physical danger.

Ok, cool. He didnt attack dozens of times. I'll be sure to be more literal, lest my meaning be missed. Does that change the fact that he was an established enemy, that has attacked them maliciously? Paid or not?

And I know we aren't trying to argue whether or not the Linear Guild are enemies, right? Every person in that guild that fights against the Order are their enemies. A few special circumstances like Helga doesn't make this any less true, and it's just plain stupid to assume that they wouldn't consider every member an enemy. They are all enemies, and should not be considered future allies because a few members are non-recurring. If they run into Leeky or Pompry, they are considered enemies to the Order.

And I'm not gonna waste time arguing the morality of Domination. However, they do not have to go out of their way to be at all helpful to their enemies. That's just silly. Should double Y suffer through their indignities? Not at all. But I hardly think that this would get them out of heaven. Or the theoretical plane of heavenly exsistence. If being a huge jackass is enough to change your alignment, then this system is more out of wack than I thought.

[darkelf]

meh, its just a kobold. :smalltongue:

[Dalek-K]

I really think roy is going to *save* YukYuk (trap finder) from the party.

He will eventually get that the party is leaning evil and will confront them or secretivly let him go (hey can I borrow the kobold? Yes? Ok be back in a bit). I think the yukyuk will hate the rest of the group except elan possibly but still join up later due to being in debt to Roy.

Or the rogue/ranger dies in the next comic -_-;;;;

[Hbgplayer]

Very good comic, as usual. I am glad that the quality of your work has not suffered on the rushed pace. :biggrin:

[sims796]

Be that as it may it is not a major one, as the Kobold had attacked the order and has proven himself to be a cruel individual. And so I can see the arguement for keeping him dominated. It reduces the active enemy forces and keeps a real (not merely potential, but actual) enemy from fighting them. I personally would simply dump his ass in the nearest city, perhaps handed over to the authorities IF they were remotely trsutworthy. But I see the logic of keeping him around and dominated in the de facto state of war they are in with the Linear Guild.

But at present he is harmless. Therefore to use him as a meatshield is to show a casual and blatant lack of regard for a sentient being that is in some ways troubling. The point is that YukYuk cannot threaten them at present, and so AT PRESENT is a non-combatant. He is comparable to a civilian. One who needs to be restrained, but to kill such is against all known "just war" statutes.

And whether he deserves punishment for past crimes or not, none of the Order are a legitimate civilian or military quthority was any kind of jurisdiction in this case. For them to engage in such, even if believable, is vigilantism of the extreme sort. That is, punishing wrongdoers using their own ethics, affeted and clouded by personal feelings. It is comparable in principle (if not in scope) to a lynch mob, or Pratchetts "rough justice".

This is why I do not think it good to use him as a meat shield, or trap device. And I would think it possible to likely Roy objects in a major way next strip.

Good points, I suppose. For me, he is an enemy, out and out. The poop eating is way over the top, but I'll ignore that, as only the morally grey characters were actually involved in it, and it isn't Durkon's job to police the team. I'll have no issue in sending the enemy to fight, and absolutely none in keeping him dominate, when the fate of the world is at stakes.


And hey, I don't need the order to be squeaky clean. V's going off the deep end was a fantastic thing for the character, and made hir far more interesting. But I am also free to say "I think action x was immoral" without demanding the characters all be paragons.

Sure. Just seems that too many people are ready to call thfor an alignment switch if they do anything that isn't all goody-goody.

[Krim]

I'm surprised that Yuk-Yuk is still dominated, after everything he's had to go through. I guess he must have truly abysmal saves...!

Well, multiclass Ranger+Rogue, plus, I'm speculating, a WIS penalty "a la Belkar", will get you exactly that. He probably only succeeds on a 20.

Plus, it seems his Search skill matches Belkar's Survival :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

And I know we aren't trying to argue whether or not the Linear Guild are enemies, right? Every person in that guild that fights against the Order are their enemies. A few special circumstances like Helga doesn't make this any less true, and it's just plain stupid to assume that they wouldn't consider every member an enemy. They are all enemies, and should not be considered future allies because
I'm saying that simply because a character carries around a Linear Guild business card does not mean that character is automatically an implacable enemy of the OOTS. Hilgya, Pompey, and Leekey have not displayed any interest in the never-ending cycle of petty revenge against the OOTS. Tarquin and Malack are in it for the gate, not the never-ending cycle of petty revenge against the OOTS. Kilkil's in it because his boss tells him to be, and doesn't seem invested in the never-ending cycle of petty revenge against the OOTS. There was no indication that Yukyuk was invested in the never-ending cycle of petty revenge against the OOTS. In explaining his motives, Yukyuk indicated that, given the right incentive, he could be persuaded to abandon his attempts to hurt the OOTS. His betrayal by Z soured him towards Z, and by extension to the Linear Guild.

Of course while attempting to kill the OOTS a character is an enemy of the OOTS. But that does not make them implacable. They could be convinced to leave the OOTS alone, or to be helpful, under the right circumstances if anyone cared enough to try. Yukyuk, prior to meeting Belkar and Mr. Scruffy, was one such enemy. Even having been Dominated, but before being forced to endure physical and emotional trauma, he was more well-disposed toward the OOTS than to their enemies. Now? Now I would be very surprised if the abuse has rendered him implacable. Good freakin' job.

[Tulya]

If being a huge jackass is enough to change your alignment, then this system is more out of wack than I thought.
Forcing someone to eat feces and walk into potentially deadly traps* is mere jackassery?

*Standard sample traps start having save-or-die effects at CR 8. A party of the average level of the Order of the Stick is expected to face such challenges occasionally.

[Jay R]

Well, any triggered trap you can walk away from... :smallamused:

... is very different from a trap you are blown away from.

[jaybird]

In all fairness, is this in any way shape or form out of character for PCs? :smalltongue:

[sims796]

Forcing someone to eat feces and walk into potentially deadly traps* is mere jackassery?

*Standard sample traps start having save-or-die effects at CR 8. A party of the average level of the Order of the Stick is expected to face such challenges occasionally.

Absolutely not, and I am appalled that you would misintepret my words.

I said a huge jackass. Totally different :smalltongue:

[Riverdance]

The kobold appears to have survived (at least judging by his still dominated eyes). Surprising.

[Tulya]

Absolutely not, and I am appalled that you would misintepret my words.

I said a huge jackass. Totally different :smalltongue:

Fair enough. Huge ones do like ... 2d6+11 bludgeoning damage when they trample you!

[The_Weirdo]

Eh. The kobold tried to kill Belkar's cat and V in a fight against the Order, V proved more powerful, the kobold is now Belkar's litter box, V's personal trapfinder and the Order's mule. Sounds Neutral to me. A Lawful Good might not like it, but even a Chaotic Good-ish (whether or not Haley is CN or CG) clearly wouldn't mind it in this case.

[Dire Llama]

Ah, vivid onomatopoeia.

[hamishspence]

Someone already gave a response but I will too.

But first, thanks Hamishpence. Some basic ideas there, and I appreciate it.


How unsurprising.Seriously how could the author have that it was a good idea to write that?:smallannoyed:

It has its flaws- but most of them tend to be in the mechanical stuff.

The text about what's expected of Good beings- respect for life, respect for dignity- even toward their enemies, is pretty good.

As is the presumption that its wrong to harm even Evil beings without just cause- and the idea that the noncombatants of "Usually/Often Evil races" should not be targeted.

Indeed, the book is almost the only 3.0/3.5 splatbook that paints an alignment picture strongly consistant with the way Rich tends to handle things in books such as SoD, and his comments on events in the same books.

Which is why I tend to forgive it the flaws.

[Landis963]

Ah. The Nodwick method of trap disarmament.

[The Cat Goddess]

I'm pretty sure Yuk Yuk has no Rogue levels... He just got sneak attacks another way and Haley conveniently supposed otherwise.

Any class that gives you sneak attack will give you Trapfinding. Any Prestige Class that will give you sneak attack will require you to have levels in a class that has Trapfinding.

Of course, Yuk-Yuk would have been better off with Scout levels to combine with his Ranger Levels and the feat that allows the two classes to stack. Riding his animal companion would give him the movement needed to trigger his bonus damage.

[Tobrian]

My two cents:

1) Either the kobold only took a few levels in rogue, but never maxed out his trap-finding search skill,
or
2) V made the mistake of only ordering the kobold to FIND traps. "Find traps to the best of your ability" is unfortunately not the same as telling a dominated victim: "Find the traps to the best of your ability, and avoid them if possible, and alert us to what and where the traps are while you try to disable them.. or until our rogue has helped you disable them, then you continue searching".

[Michaeler]

It was suggested elsewhere that YukYuk has to expect his life to now consist of ever worse torture followed by execution, so who's to say this wasn't a deliberate attempt to kill himself by twisting V's orders?

Not entirely convinced but I wouldn't discount it.

[Aurabolt]

What I wanna know is what exactly has Haley been using those Skill Points for that aren't Search? I can understand possibly changing up a few things when you've entered Azure City, but there's no reason that someone of a reasonably high-intelligence as a Rogue would want to stay low on her Search skills, one of her prime class abilities, for something else.

[Forikroder]

i wonder if V lied about what he ordered the Kobold to do though

[Belsirk]

Wow... the Ochul's version of the kobolds (because after all those traps he will be a martyr )

[Andorax]

The dilema:

The party can't keep YY dominated forever.

They don't want to risk having a murderous, psychotic (well...ANOTHER murderous, psychotic) foe chasing after them.

Killing him outright and intentionally is in the 'definately evil' category.


So having him "conveniently die anyway" is the most logical compromise...the least evil way out of a situation that will prevent them from having another foe on their heels.


There are, of course, two major flaws to this plan:

1) Girard and co might make some interesting assumptions about the nature and alignment of the party when they see them mistreating their disposable kobold.

2) Whenever the latest YY kobold dies, another variation spawns elsewhere and begins his inevitable journey towards the linear guild. Kill this one, and the next will just be something worse and higher level.

[MaximKat]

2) Whenever the latest YY kobold dies, another variation spawns elsewhere and begins his inevitable journey towards the linear guild. Kill this one, and the next will just be something worse and higher level.

They'll run out of letters eventually.

[Chantelune]

What I wanna know is what exactly has Haley been using those Skill Points for that aren't Search? I can understand possibly changing up a few things when you've entered Azure City, but there's no reason that someone of a reasonably high-intelligence as a Rogue would want to stay low on her Search skills, one of her prime class abilities, for something else.

Rogues get a lot of skill points per lvl, but also have a lot of class-skills that can be vital in an adventure and even with high int score, rogues need to make choices in that regard. Search & disable device are great when you're on a dungeon only campaign and you know the dm love to put traps regulary AND your party is not made of some people who just find easier to just "disarm" traps by walking on them, endure, heal and go on. Otherwise, it's skills points that can be put to better use in other skills, like appraise. And when it comes to traps, either you max search and disable or you don't bother with those two.

In this comics, we saw until now one trap, in the first strips, that Haley couldn't even find by taking 20, meaning that either she never put ranks in search or that the trap had a DC too high that even with maxed search, she couldn't hope to find it without rolling a natural 20.

After they left that one dungeon, the story went for more urban adventures, with lower chances of traps being around. It seems reasonable to think that Haley came across the need to invest points in other skills that might prove more usefull, especially since she ended up being the leader of Azure city resistance (she might have then put points in diplomacy in an attempt to come to deal with the other groups and leading her own).

As for lockpicking, Haley has an history of being paranoid, thanks to her father, and consider that if a rogue can't get out of jail by herself, then she fail at being one, so it would be natural for her to have maxed evasion and lockpicking, so she can jailbreak.

If this comic was about pathfinder, then she would have almost no reason not to max out search, but given it's still D&D 3.5, I understand why she didn't maxed it out. It backfired in the end, yes, but hard to fault her for that given how traps where barely used up to that point.

[eulmanis12]

I have no problem with sending YY in to find the traps.
He is the enemy (and probably evil)
They can't dominate him forever
They lack the facilities to imprison him once the domination ends
Letting him go will probably just lead to him coming back to kill them in their sleep
That being said the only remaining choice is to eventualy kill him.
Letting him live as long as he is useful is better than the only other feasible option.
Also, there is a good chance that there are strong enough traps on the temple to kill Haley.
If they are going to have to kill YY eventualy, they might as well get some use out of him.
And there was a decent chance that he would succeed without getting hurt. He did get hurt, but the Order had no way of knowing this would happen beforehand.
It wasn't a "send him to his death because we don't care." scenario
It was a "make him do something dangerous because we don't want to risk our own people who we can't afford to lose" situation.

[Dalek-K]

Any class that gives you sneak attack will give you Trapfinding. Any Prestige Class that will give you sneak attack will require you to have levels in a class that has Trapfinding.

Of course, Yuk-Yuk would have been better off with Scout levels to combine with his Ranger Levels and the feat that allows the two classes to stack. Riding his animal companion would give him the movement needed to trigger his bonus damage.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter

There is this one, I wouldn't be surprised if yuk yuk was a fighter and not a rogue (better BAB)

[Narren]

The dilema:

The party can't keep YY dominated forever.

They don't want to risk having a murderous, psychotic (well...ANOTHER murderous, psychotic) foe chasing after them.

Killing him outright and intentionally is in the 'definately evil' category.

I think it's a stretch to say that executing a dangerous foe in hostile territory when you can no longer safely bind or control him is in the "definitely evil" category. Seems to be more in the "I don't want this psycho little halfling to find us and kill us later, or lead the Linear Guild to us, or lead who-knows-what-else to us" category. If they can continue to safely control him, and it doesn't spend too many of their resources (because they need those to survive) then sure, leave him alive and deliver him to the nearest authority capable of handling him. Of course...I don't know of any non-corrupt authority ANYWHERE near them that has the ability to keep a high level rogue/ranger captive for trial.



So having him "conveniently die anyway" is the most logical compromise...the least evil way out of a situation that will prevent them from having another foe on their heels.


I think sending him to his death by walking into traps is worse than just performing a coup de grace. It's not a way for him to "conveniently die anyway" it's the same as killing him. If anything, I would prefer he NOT set off all of the traps. Not because I really care about his well-being, but because they may alert someone to their presence by setting them all off, and they may kill him early. He's still an asset in combat, until that spell wears off.

[MurkyMajare]

After Belkar draws "his last breath ever"... will he be replaced?
After all, OotS needs a balanced party, so is Rich setting us up for having the kobold taking over after Belkar?

If "last breath" actually means he will die that is...
and that "he will never be replaced" is not valid anymore.

[pendell]

I have a slightly more pragmatic view of the matter.

What they are doing to the kobold may, however, be necessary evil, if D&D recognizes such a thing. It should. Killing is evil also, but it's a "necessary evil" that's the core of the basic game.

The thing is, The OOTS is not a military organization with tons of backup. They can't teleport Yukyuk to Hinjo for incarceration, and the less they have to do with the EOB the better.

So the only logical outcome of this is to kill the kobold, as they can't adequately restrain him and if he DOESN'T try to kill them after humiliation/torture, I'd be shocked.

Now, here we are at the base of an obviously trapped pyramid. Do we have 5000GP worth of diamonds handy? No? Are we expecting to fight the linear guild and the tomb's guardians? Yes?

We need the OOTS at full strength for as long as possible. Which means, given the choice between risking one of our best combatants and risking Yukyok, whom we're going to have to kill anyway, I can see risking Yokyok.

Using Yokyok as a litter box is, of course, completely over the top and unjustifiable.

Rich just posted extensively on the need to treat all people equally regardless of skin color or species, and given this, I am *absolutely certain* this is going to come back to bite them on the ***.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jay R]

i wonder if V lied about what he ordered the Kobold to do though

No -- because he never said what he ordered the kobold to do.

In panel 5, V described in hypothetical terms that he could direct the kobold to search to the best of his ability. Later, after making sure their magic items are safe, Haley asked V to give "the proper mental commands" and V said, "Indeed."

Nowhere does V say or imply that the proper mental commands were to search to the best of his ability. (But V certainly allows Roy to infer it.)

[MurkyMajare]

After Belkar draws "his last breath ever"... will he be replaced?
After all, OotS needs a balanced party, so is Rich setting us up for having the kobold taking over after Belkar?

If "last breath" actually means he will die that is...
and that "he will never be replaced" is not valid anymore.

[Red XIV]

Still, in Origins of PCs, Haley explains to V the importance of adventures, rather than studying. After a few months adventures, Haley had became more proficient at lockpicking, although she hadn't even saw a lock during her trip.
She made a lot of xp since the first dungeon, and could (and should) have improved her trap skills.
Improving her trap skills doesn't mean they're good enough to detect everything the Draketooths laid out. Or that she's confident that they're good enough.


Just because it wasn't as impressive doesn't mean making the kobold eat **** wasn't "going too far".
That was just allowing Mr. Scruffy to get his entirely justified revenge against the kobold who attempted to murder him for fun.


The dragon had threatened to kill AND soulbind V's family. V killed the dragon and it's family and didn't soulbind them.
No, V didn't soul bind them. V just massacred 1/4 of the entire black dragon species. And the question is, could V have soul bound them? IIRC, any spell with an ongoing effect would automatically end when the soul splice ended. You've got to remember that when the group captured Nale, Sabine, and Thog in Azure City, Vaarsuvius though killing and soul binding them would be a good idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html). Though how V would've gone about doing that is unclear, seeing as they didn't have access to 9th-level spells.


Search tends to be "max or don't bother". If you aren't specced to disable traps, you might as well not bother. YukYuk seems like the kind of ranger inclined to summon/handle animals to their doom scouting for traps. (Edit: Which would make his current fate poetic, but not really appropriate for good characters to inflict this way.)
Then I guess it's a good thing that it's the True Neutral Vaarsuvius, and not a Good-aligned character, who's inflicting that comeuppance on YukYuk.

[MyNameIsSecret]

Man, this kobold is not having a fun time... :smallfrown:

Anyway, great comic again Giant.

[Yendor]

Rich just posted extensively on the need to treat all people equally regardless of skin color or species, and given this, I am *absolutely certain* this is going to come back to bite them on the ***.

Oh yes. I was skeptical of this theory at first, but now I think V may be on the end of some karma-riffic control by the IFCC.

[jidasfire]

It's still amazing to me that people will cheer with joy while the corpses of paladins and former slaves are strung up from the walls by devils, but if a villain who gleefully tries to murder an innocent cat for sport suffers a bit of slapsticky abuse, the same people seem to suffer moral outrage on a cosmic scale. Baffling.

[Flame of Anor]

It's still amazing to me that people will cheer with joy while the corpses of paladins and former slaves are strung up from the walls by devils, but if a villain who gleefully tries to murder an innocent cat for sport suffers a bit of slapsticky abuse, the same people seem to suffer moral outrage on a cosmic scale. Baffling.

+1. There is a weird anti-authoritarian faction here, whose position seems to be "the good guys aren't perfectly good, and the bad guys aren't perfectly bad, so the bad guys are good and the good guys are bad".

[zimmerwald1915]

"All men are bad, and in their badness reign."

[brionl]

+1. There is a weird anti-authoritarian faction here, whose position seems to be "the good guys aren't perfectly good, and the bad guys aren't perfectly bad, so the bad guys are good and the good guys are bad".

More to the point of this discussion: Redcloak is evil. Killing Paladins & Azurites is also evil, so it's expected of him. Roy and Durkon are not evil. Torturing and abusing prisoners is evil so they shouldn't be allowing Varsuvius and Belkar to do so.

[Flame of Anor]

"All men are bad, and in their badness reign."

Here's a website you may be interested in: http://www.outofcontextquotes.com/

[zimmerwald1915]

Here's a website you may be interested in: http://www.outofcontextquotes.com/
Thanks. I had assumed you knew the whole sonnet, and would appreciate that the quote was taken out of context.

[Khiron]

That was very amusing.:smallbiggrin:
Nice job, Giant, as always.

[Flame of Anor]

Thanks. I had assumed you knew the whole sonnet, and would appreciate that the quote was taken out of context.

:smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[The Cat Goddess]

No, V didn't soulbind them. V just massacred 1/4 of the entire black dragon species. And the question is, could V have soulbound them? IIRC, any spell with an ongoing effect would automatically end when the soul splice ended.

Soulbind is not an ongoing effect, just like enchanting a sword is not an ongoing effect.

[Gnoman]

This may be, depending on exactly what happened, a lesser Evil act for V and Haley. There is a slight possibility that it would be a minor Evil act for Roy (even if V *did* simply order the kobold to set everything off, that isn't what Roy told it to do, so he can't take full blame for it. The plan he did agree to could possibly ping as evil, and he could also take a bit of an alignment hit because he had some reason to believe that V is capable of such acts based on treatment of Belkar.) Elan, Durkon, and (ironically) Belkar can't be held accountable because they were not involved in the planning, execution, or authorization of the act. (What they do after this is another story, of course.

[Omergideon]

I think the pragmatism of what the order are doing is understandable. Considering their position and situation it is likely the most efficient use of their resources in the goal of victory.

But does pragmatism trump morality? And if so, or not, how do we calculate the tipping point for that. What amount of evil would be unjustifiable, no matter the outcome or the "greater good" aimed for? Or are there some stakes so severe that almost any act becomes permitted, a sort of ethical "Godzilla threshold"?

Interesting questions to consider, and at the heart of the principles that govern how they treat Yuk Yuk at the moment. Now I am not complaining about the ethics here as far as how good the comic is. That should be independent to some degree, especially as Yuk Yuk lived. But I am thinking the question is one that will be addressed. And like Pendell I could easily see this treatment of Yuk Yuk coming back to bite them in the ass some time.


And as an aside, regarding the topic in general I think the operative in Serenity is a great character for exploring the mindset of ends justifying means at one extreme. I may not think Whedon (or firefly) are as good as some say, but this character is fascinating.

[stimepy]

Why is it every one assumes that V just sent to kobold to walk up the stairs instead of look for traps to the best of his ability?
Now granted the orders could have been more specific ala "Search for traps to the best of your ability and then point them out with out hurting your self for Haley to disarm."

We now know the best of his ability is 0, non, nada, zip. He can't spot a trap before it blows up in his face at all. At least these level of traps....

But still, the point is that the order in and of it self, is NOT an evil act. The cat litter box trick, more then likely, but we can view that as pay back as PBB (as in Pay Backs a *****) for Mr. Scruffy. Though that in itself changes nothing.

Now IF they sent the kobold in again, THAT would be considered evil. Since they know he has absolutely NO skills in searching for traps of this level. But as it stands now it's not an evil act. Neutral at worst due to lack of knowledge on their part.

[Themrys]

Oh yes. I was skeptical of this theory at first, but now I think V may be on the end of some karma-riffic control by the IFCC.

You think they are controlling hir at this moment, because of the soulsplice contract? I don't think so...but I am sure they will take control of V when the OotS has found the gate.

@jidasfire: The difference is: The people who killed those paladins were evil. Their behaviour was to be expected.
The people who are abusing that kobold are supposed to be the heroes.

[Narren]

We now know the best of his ability is 0, non, nada, zip. He can't spot a trap before it blows up in his face at all. At least these level of traps....


All he did was walk up to the traps and set them off. Even with 0 ranks in search, that is NOT the best of someones ability. The best of his ability would be to take 20 (you can do that without ranks, right?) and actually LOOK for a trap.

The smart thing for the order to do would have been to have him ACTUALLY look for the traps. If he sets them off, fine. If not, Haley or Yukyuk can disarm them and they can move on to the next trap with alerting anyone, and with a fresh kobold to aid in searching for traps or combat.

[hamishspence]

And as an aside, regarding the topic in general I think the operative in Serenity is a great character for exploring the mindset of ends justifying means at one extreme. I may not think Whedon (or firefly) are as good as some say, but this character is fascinating.

I tend to agree- he's very much "Evil for the Greater Good"- almost Redcloak-ish, but a bit less delusional:


Mal: "I don't kill children."
The Operative: "I do. If I have to."

The Operative: "I'm a monster. I have no illusions about that. What I do is evil- but it must be done."


Why is it every one assumes that V just sent to kobold to walk up the stairs instead of look for traps to the best of his ability?

Possibly because V shows no change of expression, no chagrin, no "oops, this wasn't what was supposed to happen".

[zimmerwald1915]

@jidasfire: The difference is: The people who killed those paladins were evil. Their behaviour was to be expected.
The people who are abusing that kobold are supposed to be the heroes.
Who says? Roy is the hero. The rest of them are means to an end to whom he is nice and who he treats like people because he's a hero and a decent guy.

[Jay R]

It's still amazing to me that people will cheer with joy while the corpses of paladins and former slaves are strung up from the walls by devils, but if a villain who gleefully tries to murder an innocent cat for sport suffers a bit of slapsticky abuse, the same people seem to suffer moral outrage on a cosmic scale. Baffling.

I don't think they are the same people. If somebody in a crowd yells one thing, and somebody else in the crowd yells something inconsistent with the first one, that doesn't mean the crowd is inconsistent or hypocritical; just that they don't all agree.

[dakameleon]

Seriously people, a moral discussion on the slapstick of using the dominated enemy to trigger traps?

As much as people like to debate and consider this as though it was a campaign truly being played out, this is a comic after all, and don't most of you come here for the laughs?

[hamishspence]

but if a villain who gleefully tries to murder an innocent cat for sport suffers a bit of slapsticky abuse, the same people seem to suffer moral outrage on a cosmic scale. Baffling.

All animals are innocent in a sense- lack of moral comprehension.

Mr Scruffy is innocent in the same sense that a killer attack dog is innocent, though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html

Though it's highly unlikely that Yukyuk knew this.

[Copper]

Why is it every one assumes that V just sent to kobold to walk up the stairs instead of look for traps to the best of his ability?
Now granted the orders could have been more specific ala "Search for traps to the best of your ability and then point them out with out hurting your self for Haley to disarm."

It's interesting, because my interpretation of this comic was more like this than "V lied to Roy and used Yokyok to set off traps" I assumed that they were mistaken and that the kobold had awful disarming skills or want actually a rogue after all or something.

[Kish]

I think Vaarsuvius ordered Yukyuk to search for traps to the best of his ability.

I think Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and probably Haley all knew perfectly well that Yukyuk is a mostly-ranger, with as many rogue levels as Belkar has barbarian levels, and thus would be unable to either find or avoid setting off any such traps. I think Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and Haley didn't care. I think Haley would not have cared if he had been able to disarm the traps without setting any of them off, Belkar would have been disappointed, and Vaarsuvius would either have been mildly disappointed or not have cared.


As much as people like to debate and consider this as though it was a campaign truly being played out,

Few people treat this as a campaign. Those who do generally complain about how poorly it fills that role. Most people treat it like what it is--a story.

this is a comic after all, and don't most of you come here for the laughs?
People who read the comic only "for the laughs," rather than for the story, are generally recognizable by their complaints about that stupid plot stuff having taken over the comic.

Absolutely not, and I am appalled that you would misintepret my words.

I said a huge jackass. Totally different :smalltongue:
If torture couldn't move someone's alignment southward, the alignment system would truly be as deranged as it was in 1ed.
"Psst. Rolling a 3 for Charisma in 1ed meant you had to be evil."
...Okay, not quite that bad.

[Smolder]

"Wow, that kobold has a death wish. He must be desperate to end his domination by any means."

Actually, that's very possible. I've played games where undead or dominated minions will passively attempt to kill themselves or their controller.

For example, if they have ranged attacks and you order them to attack, they think nothing of shooting through you if that happens to satisfy your command.

[Omergideon]

I tend to agree- he's very much "Evil for the Greater Good"- almost Redcloak-ish, but a bit less delusional:


That is what I find the most fascinating about the character. He is an evil who knows he is evil, but believes it necessary. his line about never entering paradise tells so much about the character. Plus the Actor was incredible, and able to actually fight I think which is a plus.


Anyway the strength of the intentional angle comes from Roy's dialogue, that suggests this is what he is seeing. It is his interpretation of events it would seem. And the way Haley reacts at the end (the glee seen) makes it seem all the more likely this was intentional.

[Flame of Anor]

Possibly because V shows no change of expression, no chagrin, no "oops, this wasn't what was supposed to happen".

Not saying you're wrong, but then V is rarely very emotional.

[Smolder]

I'm afraid that it's becoming more and more likely that YY will be the one who kills Belkar.

And when that happens, will you still be whining over YY's mistreatment?

Or wishing that the Order had just done the smart and Lawful thing and killed him during their initial combat.

[ti'esar]

Seriously people, a moral discussion on the slapstick of using the dominated enemy to trigger traps?

As much as people like to debate and consider this as though it was a campaign truly being played out, this is a comic after all, and don't most of you come here for the laughs?

I think Roy's reaction should pretty well sink the idea that there isn't supposed to be anything morally questionable about this and we're all overreacting.

Thinking the slapstick was hilarious (which I did) does not preclude questioning its morality. Xykon does things all the time that are both hilarious and indisputably evil.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think Vaarsuvius ordered Yukyuk to search for traps to the best of his ability.

I think Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and probably Haley all knew perfectly well that Yukyuk is a mostly-ranger, with as many rogue levels as Belkar has barbarian levels, and thus would be unable to either find or avoid setting off any such traps. I think Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and Haley didn't care. I think Haley would not have cared if he had been able to disarm the traps without setting any of them off, Belkar would have been disappointed, and Vaarsuvius would either have been mildly disappointed or not have cared.
Rangers have Search as a class skill, and Rogues get Trapfinding, the class ability that lets them locate traps whose DC is higher than 20, at level 1. Yukyuk could have had a better Search score than Haley. That he apparently does not is a result of his choices on how to spend his skill points, not in his class abilities.

[dakameleon]

Few people treat this as a campaign. Those who do generally complain about how poorly it fills that role. Most people treat it like what it is--a story.
I'm referring to the people (like you) debating whether this fits into the character alignment and so forth - that this constitutes an "evil" act, when really there's an element of play in this as well. This is why I gave up gaming: people taking themselves too damn seriously and not going along with things...


People who read the comic only "for the laughs," rather than for the story, are generally recognizable by their complaints about that stupid plot stuff having taken over the comic.
Hey, I read for the laughs but I'm more than happy to have the story/plot in there too. There's only so many jokes you can riff off the rules, and sometimes it's got to be set up as part of a plot. Light moments abound and that's what makes this stuff fun.

[Narren]

All animals are innocent in a sense- lack of moral comprehension.

Mr Scruffy is innocent in the same sense that a killer attack dog is innocent, though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html

Though it's highly unlikely that Yukyuk knew this.


Just out of curiosity, does anyone think Yukyuk actually knew that Mr. Scruffy was Belkar's animal companion? If so, the cat becomes a much more valid target. Though from the comic, I got the impression that Yukyuk didn't recognize Mr. Scruffy. I imagine that the Linear Guild would update any new member on the Order of the Stick (their race/class, physical description, powers and abilities) but did they even know that Belkar picked up an animal companion?

[squirrl811]

What is the best way to search for a trap? Trigger them all on purpose!

If V told the kobold to "search for traps to the best of your ability" without specifying to not trigger them or to care for his own safety, this is certainly a very effective (and very literal) method.

[Laniius]

Yep. Roy may be in trouble next time he dies.

ETA: But how is this different from using the various Charm/ Dominate Person/ Monster spells in-game? Do the higher Summon Monster spells summon sentient critters to fight for the party?

Nope, not the summon monster line. The creatures aren't really "there"; that's why they can't enter things like magic circle against evil. When they die they go back to their home plane, perfectly ok. I've heard it described like a really vivid dream on their part. The gate, binding, and ally line of spells though - the creature is really there. Except for the binding spell, you have to negotiate for their services.

[Chance Gardener]

in considering the logic being presented on whether or not the Order, or various members thereof, is evil, I am now forced to conclude that Bugs Bunny is several kilonazis in the red.

[Kish]

If you were to look at Looney Tunes as a story with a consistent plot and a moral sense, then yes, of course he is. Of course, everyone else in it is even worse, and of course, that's the entirely wrong way to look at it.

The puzzling thing is that there are seriously people asserting that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12718471&postcount=108) comic has no more morality to it than Looney Tunes.

[Narren]

in considering the logic being presented on whether or not the Order, or various members thereof, is evil, I am now forced to conclude that Bugs Bunny is several kilonazis in the red.

Bugs could give Xykon a run for his money.

Come to think of it, that'd be a good fight....

[Red XIV]

Nope, not the summon monster line. The creatures aren't really "there"; that's why they can't enter things like magic circle against evil. When they die they go back to their home plane, perfectly ok. I've heard it described like a really vivid dream on their part. The gate, binding, and ally line of spells though - the creature is really there. Except for the binding spell, you have to negotiate for their services.
Within the OotS-verse, summoned beings seem to actually be present. See: Celia, who was brought back into the story via a summoning talisman.

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm afraid that it's becoming more and more likely that YY will be the one who kills Belkar.

And when that happens, will you still be whining over YY's mistreatment?

Or wishing that the Order had just done the smart and Lawful thing and killed him during their initial combat.

Well personally I hate Belkar and long to see him get exploded or shanked or disintegrated or whatever, especially by the kobolds he's been badgering and killing all comic, so...I say more power to him :smallbiggrin:

[Belril Duskwalk]

All he did was walk up to the traps and set them off. Even with 0 ranks in search, that is NOT the best of someones ability. The best of his ability would be to take 20 (you can do that without ranks, right?) and actually LOOK for a trap.

Two problems with that idea. For one, taking a 20 is time-consuming. Taking a 20 on a trap search covering the rather tall ramp we have been shown would likely take an hour or three (not to mention the time spent disabling said traps, if found). Second, taking a 20 basically is a less time-demanding (from the Player's perspective) way of saying 'I will roll my check until I get a 20', in the process of these multiple attempts, you will fail, likely several times. If you try to take a 20 on a skill where there is a consequence for failure (beyond time spent) you will suffer the result from said failures. This becomes a problem when you consider that many traps are engineered in a way that they will be triggered if a person botches their attempt to find them badly enough.

Short-version: It may or may not be possible to safely take a 20 when searching for traps. Whether or not it is safe to do so, it will take a very long time to do it.

[Vectner]

Unfortunately for Haley, Roy is not Lawful stupid. He's going to be pissed.

[rbetieh]

Silly question: am I the only one that thinks Kobolds in OOTS kinda resemble this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown)? Poor Tiamat, her creation always gets the ball snatched away....

[Jay R]

... and don't most of you come here for the laughs?

No, of course not. I go to the comic for the laughs. I come here, to the forum, for the discussions.

[Rizzer]

The funny thing about this strip and the treatment of Yukyuk is that it really is precisely how players treat the NPCs that they have influence over. At least, that's how the players in my campaign did ... (poor Splug)

[The_Weirdo]

No, of course not. I go to the comic for the laughs. I come here, to the forum, for the discussions.

I can mix them!

Okay, tell me if you've heard this one before. Is it morally justifiable for a priest, a rabbi and a cleric of Mystra to walk into a bar? What is the alignment of the bartender that asks them "what's this, some sort of a joke-slash-argument?"?

[The_Weirdo]

The funny thing about this strip and the treatment of Yukyuk is that it really is precisely how players treat the NPCs that they have influence over. At least, that's how the players in my campaign did ... (poor Splug)

Okay, need MOAR INFO! :D

[turkishproverb]

I can mix them!

Okay, tell me if you've heard this one before. Is it morally justifiable for a priest, a rabbi and a cleric of Mystra to walk into a bar? What is the alignment of the bartender that asks them "what's this, some sort of a joke-slash-argument?"?

Chaotic Lawful?

[Charmy]

<rant>
Just throwing my two cents in the ring, for what they're worth.

I find what they're doing to this Kobold to be morally repugnant.

I'm quite amazed that Roy, Durkon and Elan don't have a problem with it. They were already practicing slavery, and now they're sacrificing someone that is totally at their mercy to achieve their own ends.

The fact that the kobold is Evil and tried to kill them does not excuse these acts. I really find it dismaying that many on this board seem to think that the moment you're attacked by someone, the gloves are off. *Anything* goes from that moment on, and when the dust settles, you're still Good because hey, "they tried to kill me first". One wonders if any of these people have seen a single classic Superhero comic or Saturday morning cartoon before. And yes, I don't consider that childish or "goody-goody". I consider that what it means to be truly Good. This, "Sure, I'll be humane as long as it remains in my best interest" attitude stinks of Neutrality.

If you dispatch him in self defense, fine. If you Dominated him to win the combat, fine. Show that you're the better person and once the threat has passed, move on. If you stoop to sending people off to their death to achieve your own ends because they're your enemy, then I don't see how you're any better than those you oppose, and I have trouble rooting for you over any other faction in this world trying to make things better for their people/cause.

Roy was absolutely right in raising moral qualms with what they're doing, and he shouldn't have been swayed so easily. :smallmad:

Here's hoping that Durkon, who is off-panel atm, puts a stop to this BS before it gets any worse.
</rant>

[Tulya]

I'm afraid that it's becoming more and more likely that YY will be the one who kills Belkar.

And when that happens, will you still be whining over YY's mistreatment?

Or wishing that the Order had just done the smart and Lawful thing and killed him during their initial combat.

Wait, what?

"The Order of the Stick is mistreating YukYuk and it seems increasingly probable that he'll ultimately take vengeance because of it. They should have slit his throat earlier instead of keeping him around and abusing him, because those were surely the only options for reasonable people."

If they'd felt a need to use fatal force in-combat, then that could have been justifiable. The time to use it was while in-combat. After combat, any subdued opponents become prisoners to which a certain degree of duty is owed by Good characters.

Edit: As to what they could have done with Yukyuk, abandoning him on the Semielemental Plane of Ranch Dressing probably would have sufficed. Yukyuk wasn't exactly pleased when Zz'dtri tried to slay him with Phantasmal Killer, and no heinous acts had been bestowed upon Yukyuk at that point. Even if angered about the Domination, it seems unlikely that V would be YukYuk's highest priority for a vendetta, and even more unlikely that YukYuk would seek to rejoin Nale and Zz'dtri at that point.

[silvadel]

I tend to houserule such things a little bit...

I mean the D&D rules on taking 20 etc are a little weird when it comes to things like search...

Lets take a real life example -- you want to find your lost cable remote control.

You essentially make a search check when you go looking for it.

BUT if you "take 20" you arent doing the same thing as making 20 odd searches -- in fact you search places you never would have...

"Take 20" in such a situation is ripping the whole room apart trying to locate that controller including looking in things and under things you would never do in a normal search...

That said for something like search I typically give 20+d6 when someone takes 20 and the time for success is percentile times 20 times as long (failure always takes the whole time).

If it is something hazardous I roll the check twice.

For something like finding a trap where blundering into it would be a failure even if you were going to find it I do 20+d6 for if you will eventually find it and if that succeeds 6+d20 for if you trigger it finding it(I figure any search of that magnitude is something that is done more carefully than your simple search)

----

I also allow someone to take 27 if they want to take 400 times as long...

RL example you lost your car keys...

You do a normal search and fail.

You tear apart all normal places and take 20 times as long and still fail.

You still NEED TO HAVE YOUR KEYS to get to work.

Then you do what I call a phase 3 search... You literally start opening up every drawer and sift through everything tearing everything possible apart and it takes forever... If you are willing to devote hours to doing something that should take rounds.

There is no variation in such a search because it assumes you will check everything to the very best of your ability to the minutest detail.

[Icedaemon]

I wonder what Blackwing has to say about all this. On one hand, he's trying to veer V away from the deep end of the alignment pool and Yukyuk is a "brother," but on the other hand he seems to care about Mr. Scruffy (giving him the Belt of Giant Strength).

It seemed less a 'I like this cat' and more of a 'this cat is part of the group I am with, I should help him' to me. Not really worried or fretting or such, just businesslike.


I don't think anyone in the Linear Guild, besides Yikyik, has ever displayed speciesist attitudes. In fact, they've always been the most diverse party. Compare that to Tarquin's party, which seems to be 2/3 human.

A good point. Though I did not actually count the standard fantasy 'do-goody' races as separate species in terms of the previous statement, Nale does seem like one who would work with anyone who fits the job requirements.

[Flame of Anor]

No, of course not. I go to the comic for the laughs. I come here, to the forum, for the discussions.

That's a good point.




Okay, tell me if you've heard this one before. Is it morally justifiable for a priest, a rabbi and a cleric of Mystra to walk into a bar? What is the alignment of the bartender that asks them "what's this, some sort of a joke-slash-argument?"?

Chaotic Lawful?

"Well," says the priest, "MONSTER IN THE DARKNESS AND VAARSUVIUS'S GENDER." The rabbi sips his drink and replies, "CLEARLY, CHAOTIC NEUTRAL AND HALEY'S CELESTIAL ANCESTOR." But the cleric of Mystra just winks and says, "I HATE MIKO I WISH SHE CAME BACK TO LIFE SO SOMEONE WOULD KILL HER AGAIN."


...there, now between the three of us I think we have summarized the Playground.

[Tev]

ok so I rant a little too:
Yeah, why do people bother thinking, and not just accept and enjoy any crap that comes to them.

This comic is not crappy, but I still don't get why people can't think about it, analyze it and discuss about it. "I don't think so you better not too!"


Within the OotS-verse, summoned beings seem to actually be present. See: Celia, who was brought back into the story via a summoning talisman.
Not this one again . . . it was calling spell, Rich just doesn't bother to explain the difference to non-D&D reader: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12511062&postcount=59

[Dire Llama]

ok so I rant a little too:
Yeah, why do people bother thinking, and not just accept and enjoy any crap that comes to them.

This comic is not crappy, but I still don't get why people can't think about it, analyze it and discuss about it. "I don't think so you better not too!"



Indeed. Moff's Law:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoffsLaw

[jamiah93]

Has Haley ever successfully disarmed a trap?

[DigoDragon]

What is the best way to search for a trap? Trigger them all on purpose!

I agree! In an older campaign I ran, our party rogue specialized in triggering traps as a means to disarm them since on average 80% of them did not reset. Sure, the rogue got hurt often, but he never died from a trap and the party was usually a safe distance behind him so as not to catch any "splash" from the traps going off.

Its entirely possible YukYuk is this kind of rogue.
So I personally wouldn't question anyone's alignment just yet.

[Laniius]

Within the OotS-verse, summoned beings seem to actually be present. See: Celia, who was brought back into the story via a summoning talisman.

I don't think that was an actual "summon monster" talisman, but something else, like planar ally or something keyed to the talisman. Otherwise how would you describe the duration of probably more than rounds per level?

[martianmister]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone think Yukyuk actually knew that Mr. Scruffy was Belkar's animal companion? If so, the cat becomes a much more valid target. Though from the comic, I got the impression that Yukyuk didn't recognize Mr. Scruffy. I imagine that the Linear Guild would update any new member on the Order of the Stick (their race/class, physical description, powers and abilities) but did they even know that Belkar picked up an animal companion?

He/they should know about him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

[Chobarth]

Well personally I hate Belkar and long to see him get exploded or shanked or disintegrated or whatever, especially by the kobolds he's been badgering and killing all comic, so...I say more power to him :smallbiggrin:

Chobarth say: Fudge the Kobolds. Belkar rules.




I find what they're doing to this Kobold to be morally repugnant.

I'm quite amazed that Roy, Durkon and Elan don't have a problem with it. They were already practicing slavery, and now they're sacrificing someone that is totally at their mercy to achieve their own ends.

The fact that the kobold is Evil and tried to kill them does not excuse these acts. I really find it dismaying that many on this board seem to think that the moment you're attacked by someone, the gloves are off.

This, "Sure, I'll be humane as long as it remains in my best interest" attitude stinks of Neutrality.

If you dispatch him in self defense, fine. If you Dominated him to win the combat, fine. Show that you're the better person and once the threat has passed, move on. If you stoop to sending people off to their death to achieve your own ends because they're your enemy, then I don't see how you're any better than those you oppose...

I have to agree with Charmy. None of this frantic moralizing / ethics discussion effects me personally or as a rpg game player. But he, and the people who have voiced opinions like him are correct. (Belkar of course couldn't care less - bring the pain and humiliation to the kobolds!) The alignment rules are pretty clear and 'good' people shouldn't be going along with this stuff. V and Haley are making a potential mistake here on top of alignment choices. Girard was chaotic, but was apparently good. At least, they had a Paladin for a leader, so it's a better than average chance.

<For the record? My game group pretty much considers itself along the neutral spectrum tending towards good -- but the OOTs boards would label us as an evil-band of self justifying vigilantes. Doing good only because it's a convenient excuse to loot and pillage 'the bad guys' without real repercussions.>

I'd be on the side of whoever said 'heal the Kobold and send him back up the stairs' except for one thing: the OOTS are trying to locate and safeguard a gate ostensibly under the control of other 'good' folks. Just like these boards, people like that won't put up with these kind of actions.

One last observation, I'm still not convinced V's use of Familicide was that bad for his balance (making the deal with the devils/demons was worse...) overall. D&D dragons are color-coded for your convenience. Even Miko backed off once she knew it was a Black dragon... Not saying it was a 'good' action, but slaying that much evil isn't generally considered a bad thing.

[hamishspence]

I have to agree with Charmy. None of this frantic moralizing / ethics discussion effects me personally or as a rpg game player. But he, and the people who have voiced opinions like him are correct. (Belkar of course couldn't care less - bring the pain and humiliation to the kobolds!) The alignment rules are pretty clear and 'good' people shouldn't be going along with this stuff.

I tend to agree that "respect for life" and "respect for dignity" apply to everybody- even the party's enemies (which is not to say they can't kill their enemies- just that they shouldn't kill when doing so is unnecessary or excessive.


One last observation, I'm still not convinced V's use of Familicide was that bad for his balance (making the deal with the devils/demons was worse...) overall. D&D dragons are color-coded for your convenience. Even Miko backed off once she knew it was a Black dragon... Not saying it was a 'good' action, but slaying that much evil isn't generally considered a bad thing.

Don't Split The Party commentary says it best:

Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another. Vaarsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully when the reader sees the scale on which Vaarsuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.
Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Probably best that I not think about it too much.
That said, we have Word of Giant that V's current alignment (as of that post's date) is True Neutral.
V is True Neutral! (http://ow.ly/6fgbi)

[Chobarth]

Don't Split The Party commentary says it best:



Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another. Vaarsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully when the reader sees the scale on which Vaarsuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.
Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Probably best that I not think about it too much.

Yeah, I didn't agree with it then either. It was a poorly structured paragraph. V IS INDEED making the same mistake all over again, but then this huge leap occurs from one characters poor wisdom score to "speaking for all players...monsters are evil".

I loathe the alignment rules in D&D - but that doesn't alter the fact that the game straight up tells you that some races are evil. If you get rid of the alignment rules, then V's actions are wrong with a capital E! (and Burlew's point becomes quite relevant...) But as the game stood in versions 1-3.5 (which is when I stopped buying new versions) Black Dragons are evil creatures, Gold Dragons are good creatures, Humans are all over the spectrum, etc etc It's stupid, but there it is anyway.

A neutral character, using evil means to destroy a great amount of evil, is essentially committing a neutral act.

[Emulgator]

Maybe YukYuk did the best he could, but just coudn't compete with Girard traps?

[MaximKat]

I was hoping there will be a new comic by morning :(

[Quild]

I know kickstarter ended yesterday, but can we expect a new strip today since the Giant got late on his daily updates during the kickstarter ?

Not telling the Giant owe us anything, it was an amazing surprise to have so many strips and totally unexpected, but just asking. I need my daily strip badly.

[ti'esar]

The more I read this thread, the more I realize how bleeping sick I am of moral debates on these forums. Bleh.

[Gift Jeraff]

I know kickstarter ended yesterday, but can we expect a new strip today since the Giant got late on his daily updates during the kickstarter ?

Not telling the Giant owe us anything, it was an amazing surprise to have so many strips and totally unexpected, but just asking. I need my daily strip badly.He said a few days ago that there will be the last mostly-daily strip on Wednesday.

[MaximKat]

He said a few days ago that there will be the last mostly-daily strip on Wednesday.

But wasn't there also supposed to be a strip yesterday? Or did I get confused by the timezones?

[Gift Jeraff]

#840 was put up yesterday at 2:17 AM in the Giant's timezone.