Haley isn't that smart

[homeosapiens]

She could have told her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son. He would go then.

I dont see how it didnt come to her after her last panel in cell block scene.

[fergo]

Her dad would know better than anyone that she was lying.

And in any case, lying to your dad about your boyfriend isn't neccesarily the best idea, no matter what justifications there are. Haley's journey, and her time with Elan, have been about her learning to open up and trust others. Maybe she doesn't want to go back to 'lying to everyone about everything just to make things slightly easier for myself.' That's what the whole scene was about: contrasting her new, changed views to that of her father.

And it has been repeatedly shown that people know Elan as being related to Tarquin on sight, moreso considering (as Geoff pointed out) there were parades and celebrations because he was in town.

[Psyren]

She has max ranks in Bluff, yet still needed +30 to lie to him. I can't imagine how you would think that to be a good idea.

[ThePhantasm]

She could have told her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son. He would go then.

I dont see how it didnt come to her after her last panel in cell block scene.

I'm sure glad what you are suggesting didn't happen, as it would be a hundred steps backward for Haley's character development, and would be an all around despicable thing to do anyway.

[Giddon]

She could have told her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son. He would go then.

I dont see how it didnt come to her after her last panel in cell block scene.


They know what Nale looks like, they've been hearing about the special games for Elan all week long, she couldn't have lied if she wanted too, it was pretty obvious Elan is Tarquin's son.

[theNater]

Elan is an identical twin of Tarquin's known son. Both Elan and Nale bear a striking resemblance to their father. "He's not Tarquin's son" isn't going to fly.

[Ron Miel]

... she couldn't have lied if she wanted too...


"He's not Tarquin's son" isn't going to fly.

You're a yellow-footed rock wallaby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)

People would believe any lie she tells, no matter how obvious.

Wanna know the reason she didn't tell her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son? It's because the anti-magic field prevented the potion working.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You're a yellow-footed rock wallaby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)

People would believe any lie she tells, no matter how obvious.

Wanna know the reason she didn't tell her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son? It's because the anti-magic field prevented the potion working.

Those were random mooks with (probably) crude Sense Motives. Not a high level Thief/Rogue who's extremly paranoid and knows the person lieing to him better than almost anyone.

[martianmister]

Considering the similarities, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html) it's not a good idea...

[homeosapiens]

2 guy out of how many here can think? 3 tops.

Haley could tell him anything she wanted to, including telling him he is a giraffe.

Basic DnD mechanics. Say Haley's rank in bluff is 19+30+Haley's Cha modifier gives 51-53. Impossible lie is -20. That gives her +31/33 to bluff roll. Average 41-43, he probably couldnt get it with a natural 20.

Saying Elan isn't Tarquin's isn't impossible lie. He could just look alike or many other things.

[zimmerwald1915]

Basic DnD mechanics. Say Haley's rank in bluff is 19+30+Haley's Cha modifier gives 51-53. Impossible lie is -20. That gives her +31/33 to bluff roll. Average 41-43, he probably couldnt get it with a natural 20.
Except, as has been pointed out, the +30 was suppressed in the antimagic cell.

[BaronOfHell]

Not to mention the comic probably doesn't work that way anyhow. The gibberish potion, I believe, was a joke on the rules and a neat and clever way for both Haley and Ian to to show a good side (i.e. caring about eachother).

Anyway, what's up with starting a post with an insult???

2 guy out of how many here can think? 3 tops.
It's generally a bad idea to lie. On short term, sure it'll look great, but on long term, it's extra ressources invested depending on the circumstances. Haley probably wants a happy ending where her father and Elan can bond to some degree. I'm confident that Haley knows her father better than any one and as such was the best person to make that call.
I imagine if she allowed her father to open up the slightest for Elan just for his paranoia to kick in afterwards, in stead of before, my guess is there might never be a second chance. Because now he'll, in his own strange view, have solid evidence of why not to trust Elan, despite whoever it might have been who actually gave Ian the false information and despite for whatever intend.

I wonder if this means I can't think either now???

[Fish]

Haley could tell him anything she wanted to, including telling him he is a giraffe.
The anti-magic field aside: Any DM would say "dude, it's a lie, it's not permanent magical hypnosis, psionic illusions, and memory editing."

[Jay R]

I agree that it wouldn't have worked, and is a bad idea. But stop mentioning the anti-magic field. She spoke to her father outside of it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html).

[Opperhapsen]

The anti-magic field aside: Any DM would say "dude, it's a lie, it's not permanent magical hypnosis, psionic illusions, and memory editing."

That is entirely irrelevant as we've already established that a potion of glibness does exactly that. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

I agree that it wouldn't have worked, and is a bad idea. But stop mentioning the anti-magic field. She spoke to her father outside of it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html).

And? They identified who Elan was inside of it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html)

[The Cat Goddess]

Not to mention the comic probably doesn't work that way anyhow. The gibberish potion, I believe, was a joke on the rules and a neat and clever way for both Haley and Ian to to show a good side (i.e. caring about eachother).

Potion of Glibness exists, and gives a +30 to Bluff. That's the way the rules work, and that's why she was able to do the things she did when talking to the guards.

Also, she couldn't've lied to her father about Elan since she the main parts of the conversation did take place in the Anti-Magic field. Telling him after she'd left the field would have been a contradiction of the entire argument they'd just had (and clearly worth more than a -20).

Of course, the fact that there's a spell/potion in D&D that allows such game-breaking lying power is just par for the course. :smallbiggrin:

[Cavenskull]

She could have told her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son. He would go then.

I dont see how it didnt come to her after her last panel in cell block scene.
Haley had maybe 30 seconds to come up with the idea after having an emotionally stressful encounter with her dad, and while he was in the middle of pouring his heart out to her. If the idea is so obvious, why did it take you a year to post the idea here? Shouldn't you have posted this on day one in the official OOTS #774 discussion thread?

[Math_Mage]

Even if Haley could have made the initial lie work (difficult given inconsistency with previous conversation), MAINTAINING the lie would be pretty much impossible.

[Jay R]

And? They identified who Elan was inside of it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html)

That's right, they did. And Ian learned that he was a bad father who screwed up her life two strips later here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html). But she completely undid that with a single line here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), using the potion of glibness. She could have completely undone the other, too, presumably.

But she didn't, quite possibly because the only way she thought of doing it required the truth, which the potion wouldn't help with. The idea that she could have undone the worst of her father's distrust of Elan with the lie that Elan isn't Tarquin's son is a genuinely new idea, that deserves a fair hearing. My only point was that she showed the ability to use the potion to undo truth told in the anti-magic field, so the anti-magic field isn't an issue in this discussion.

I still think it's a bad idea. Don't make your future happiness hinge on a lie to your loved ones. But as shown by what she did, she could have used the potion to change Ian's mind about something she said in the A-M field.

Also, I suspect that she didn't think of it because the Giant didn't think of it. Or perhaps he preferred the joke he used. Maybe he needs Ian's suspicion for a plot point later. There are way too many possible reasons for us to try to guess which one led to the outcome we actually saw.

[Psyren]

That's right, they did. And Ian learned that he was a bad father who screwed up her life two strips later here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html). But she completely undid that with a single line here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), using the potion of glibness. She could have completely undone the other, too, presumably.

The two aren't even remotely comparable. It was a lie he dearly wanted to believe, after all. The other would be something he would instantly distrust - at best, he would believe that she believed it, and simply think her taken in yet again.

But even if she could have lied to Ian about Elan, Geoff wasn't in earshot. He would tell Ian the truth as soon as he went back inside. How would she fool them both?

[The Underlord]

Considering her latest money scheme I have tto disagree :smallwink:

[Jay R]

The two aren't even remotely comparable. It was a lie he dearly wanted to believe, after all. The other would be something he would instantly distrust - at best, he would believe that she believed it, and simply think her taken in yet again.

So what? Would he distrust it as much as the average guard would distrust that he is a yellow-faced rock wallaby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html), or that their manual is a pack of treasonous lies being spread by, I dunno, let's say angry muskrat separatists (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)? Of course not.


But even if she could have lied to Ian about Elan, Geoff wasn't in earshot. He would tell Ian the truth as soon as he went back inside. How would she fool them both?

Oh, come on. This is so easily overcome.

"By the way, Dad, he isn't really Tarquin's son. He's a look-alike I'm using in a plan to take Tarquin down. But don't let anybody know - even Uncle Geoff."

"Also, you're a yellow-faced rock wallaby, and anything Uncle Geoff says is a pack of lies being spread by, I dunno, angry muskrat separatists. Don't tell Uncle Geoff that, either."

I repeat, I don't support the notion, but the presence of the anti-magic field is not an issue, since she already used the potion to counteract what was said in the field.

[sr123]

In fairness, I would agree.

I mean, Haley gets 9+ skill ranks per level and she can't bother to keep her Search maxed out? Wtf is she spending them on?!!!

[Psyren]

So what? Would he distrust it as much as the average guard would distrust that he is a yellow-faced rock wallaby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html), or that their manual is a pack of treasonous lies being spread by, I dunno, let's say angry muskrat separatists (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)? Of course not.

You're forgetting that they believed her initial bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html) before getting a reroll from Tarquin's manual. So we're not exactly talking astronomical Sense Motive to begin with and yellow-footed rock wallabies become irrelevant.

Compare to the one guy that could always tell when she was lying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) and it's clear she'd need every ounce of plausibility she can get.

[Fish]

I'm not sure I get the OP's point. Rich has clearly stated in the past that characters will not always do the most optimized, perfectly tactical strategy.

Roy isn't smart, he didn't take the phylactery back in Dorukan's Dungeon. Belkar isn't smart, he used Wisdom as a dump stat and can't cast spells. V isn't smart, blah blah blah. Of course they don't always make the best choices in life. Do you? I know I don't.

[Jay R]

... it's clear she'd need every ounce of plausibility she can get.

And she had it, of course. Plausibility that comes in ounces is called a Potion of Glibness.

[Valyrian]

Except she was in an anti-magic field when she was talking with her father.

And I'm happy she was. Unrealistic potion effects are better left to interactions with NPCs than with main characters.

[Krim]

Like...Really?

Please. Elan is EXACTLY the same as Tarquin, 20 years before. That's what, +8 Circunstancial to Sense Motive. And it's her freakin daughter, who he knows like his palm. That's easily another +8. Ian's Sense motive is, what. +18? +20?. Yeah, that sure was going to fly...

[BaronOfHell]

Not to mention the comic probably doesn't work that way anyhow. The gibberish potion, I believe, was a joke on the rules and a neat and clever way for both Haley and Ian to to show a good side (i.e. caring about eachother).
Potion of Glibness exists, and gives a +30 to Bluff. That's the way the rules work, and that's why she was able to do the things she did when talking to the guards.

I don't disagree something like this exists in D&D and OotS, but it's not my point either. Like spiked tentacles of forced intrution exists in the comic universe. Seems to be extremely powerful, at least on par with fireball and lightning. Yet it's never to be seen again. Due to it being a joke on the rules, I believe.

Anyway, the Giant have stated earlier {no reference for you} that he's willing to go against rules if he thinks it makes for a better story. I'm pretty confident that a potion of Glibness applied in a non-joke manner, would go against this. I might be wrong of course.

Thanks for your comment.:)

[irenicObserver]

Is the OP sure that Haley isn't that smart of Haley just made a mistake. You know, like a realistic character? Frankly, it's rather rude to open a post with an insult, especially since he arbitrarily noticed this detail quite some time after the comic came out.

[homeosapiens]

Well, what i have to say here? Yes i still think people who think she could not do it are less smart then they think.She could do it. If you think otherwise you just dont understand the system. There is no +8 for beeing doughter for christ sake. Circumstance bonus is +2 tops(and there is no circumstance bonus like that anywhere - i'd say we can lie better to our parents better than to any other beople because we know them so well, but thats subjective).

As for the part where it is good or not for her. The pont was to take him out of there. After doing just that, she could have told her father the truth, and detect evil on Elan close to him. Also tell him the whole story having much more time could have worked.

Yup, i think she didnt see the possibility. I always thought of Haley and Roy very highly in case of tatics. This is strange for me, like a bit out of character. She didnt seem a girl who would miss a chance here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html

As for the topic timig. I dont post a lot. I find something worth posting from time to time. Most of the time when i reread the comic again one more time.

Edit: Also insulting title brings more people to respond - marketing of the thread ;D.

[Dr.Epic]

She could have told her father that Elan wasn't Tarquin's son. He would go then.

I dont see how it didnt come to her after her last panel in cell block scene.

Yeah, honesty to your parent that raised you is for total morons.

[Cavenskull]

Well, what i have to say here? Yes i still think people who think she could not do it are less smart then they think.She could do it. If you think otherwise you just dont understand the system. There is no +8 for beeing doughter for christ sake. Circumstance bonus is +2 tops(and there is no circumstance bonus like that anywhere - i'd say we can lie better to our parents better than to any other beople because we know them so well, but thats subjective).

As for the part where it is good or not for her. The pont was to take him out of there. After doing just that, she could have told her father the truth, and detect evil on Elan close to him. Also tell him the whole story having much more time could have worked.

Yup, i think she didnt see the possibility. I always thought of Haley and Roy very highly in case of tatics. This is strange for me, like a bit out of character. She didnt seem a girl who would miss a chance here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html

As for the topic timig. I dont post a lot. I find something worth posting from time to time. Most of the time when i reread the comic again one more time.

Edit: Also insulting title brings more people to respond - marketing of the thread ;D.
A few points:

Haley didn't absolutely need to break her father out at that exact moment. As seen in the comic, when events didn't go exactly as planned, she decided that Roy and Belkar would be her backup plan. Sure, Haley could have lied to her father to get her out right now, but it wasn't absolutely necessary, and...

It doesn't address the big problem. Haley's dad isn't going to believe the lie forever. There's a lot going on that would reveal the lie, not the least of which is Tarquin's ongoing celebration of Elan's arrival and the fact that Elan is terrible at lying. And what happens when more lies are needed after the potion wears out? The resulting dispute between Haley and Ian will only be made worse by the fact that she lied. Ian already thought Elan was evil. As it sits, Ian thinks that Elan is tricking Haley. What if the lies are enough to make Ian believe that Elan is magically controlling Haley somehow? Ian might very well decide that the only solution to the problem is to kill Elan. I'm sure Haley would just love to be caught in the middle of THAT situation.

Finally, maybe Haley doesn't want to to be forced to lie to her dad. It's one thing to say a white lie to him to make him feel better about himself. It's another thing to say something hugely deceitful that could have a lasting negative impact. As paranoid as Ian is, does Haley really need her dad to think she's willing and capable of lying to him about important, dangerous things? If Ian thinks that he can't even trust family any more, what's that going to do to his already fragile mind and to his relationship with Haley?

It might be one thing if Haley had one--and only one--chance to rescue her father. But she could always make another attempt later. It's not like her father was in any imminent danger. His large number of escape attempts haven't resulted in anything worse than continued incarceration. Plus, Roy and Belkar are there, so they can make sure nothing happens to him, now that they know who he is.

[Narren]

So what? Would he distrust it as much as the average guard would distrust that he is a yellow-faced rock wallaby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html), or that their manual is a pack of treasonous lies being spread by, I dunno, let's say angry muskrat separatists (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)? Of course not.

Realistically, bluff will usually only go so far. I don't know any DM that would let you bluff someone into believing that they are in fact a yellow-faced rock wallaby without magic. But it was funny, so it was included. Doing a gag like that with a major character in a dramatic plot-affecting scene would cheapen the whole thing.



Oh, come on. This is so easily overcome.

"By the way, Dad, he isn't really Tarquin's son. He's a look-alike I'm using in a plan to take Tarquin down. But don't let anybody know - even Uncle Geoff."


I think that would be believable with a +30 to bluff, but remember it's not mind control. He may believe it, but that doesn't mean he won't tell Geoff just because you told him not to.

[theNater]

Well, what i have to say here? Yes i still think people who think she could not do it are less smart then they think.She could do it. If you think otherwise you just dont understand the system. There is no +8 for beeing doughter for christ sake. Circumstance bonus is +2 tops(and there is no circumstance bonus like that anywhere - i'd say we can lie better to our parents better than to any other beople because we know them so well, but thats subjective).
Can you cite the rule that circumstance bonuses cap out at +2? My (admittedly hazy) recollection is that +2 is the recommended bonus, not the maximum bonus. And, of course, circumstance bonuses stack with each other, so they can certainly add up if there's enough of them.

As for lying to parents, Haley and Ian both seem confident that, in normal circumstances at least, Ian can always tell when Haley is lying. Whatever that means mechanically, at least some part of the potion's +30 would have to be going towards countering that advantage.

As for the part where it is good or not for her. The pont was to take him out of there. After doing just that, she could have told her father the truth, and detect evil on Elan close to him. Also tell him the whole story having much more time could have worked.
Two questions about the Detect Evil: who is casting it, and why should Ian assume it isn't being fooled somehow? There are spells, such as the first-level bard spell Undetectable Alignment, that would prevent an evil person from giving a reading.

[irenicObserver]

Here's a point, instead of thinking she could do it how about asking if she should. That seems to be what the "people that can't think" are arguing. Even then that would be moot as it already happened and is simply not the way the story is going. What a surprise for a character to make a mistake and do something unexpected from the perspective of someone who can look into the future and the past. Your point of Haley and Roy being smarter suggest you are arguing that it is not consistent, if this is true cite some examples.