why is V acting so evil? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zeta Kai

2012-02-21, 10:32 AM

V is probably the most amoral of the party. While :belkar: is certainly the most IMmoral of the party, :vaarsuvius: is results-oriented to an extreme degree. S/he wants the goals of the party achieved, & will do whatever it takes to accomplish them, ethics be damned. S/he simply doesn't care about anything else: not hir marriage, not hir own health, not hir soul's eventual destination, & certainly not the life of some kobold.

Defeating Xykon, eliminating the threat of the Snarl, & gaining the ultimate arcane power to take care of the first two things is all that matters. So if Belkar is a useful tool, & keeping him happy (by using a kobold's mouth as a latrine) is a way to keep him useful, then s/he will do that, without remorse or even emotion. That's just the way s/he is.

internisus

2012-02-21, 10:33 AM

V's big character development taught him/her a lesson about the application of power and the value of one's allies, but it did not result in a change of alignment. V remains steadfastly neutral, and his/her cruel abuse of the kobold amounts to little more than a series of pranks, not unlike those repeatedly inflicted upon Belkar many strips ago—if anything, these jokes are less reprehensible with an actual villain as their butt. We are talking about a character who shot a cat with a crossbow bolt for no reason; even Belkar is a better person than that.

Speaking of which, our real concern should be whether V and Belkar will bond over their mistreatment of Yuk-Yuk. That would be worrisome.

FlawedParadigm

2012-02-21, 10:34 AM

We need a strip of V petting cats and passing out sugar-free candy to children.

irenicObserver

2012-02-21, 10:41 AM

Why couldn't this be in the main discussion thread?

PebbleInTheSky

2012-02-21, 10:45 AM

I'd like to point ouut that both of those incidents were Belkar and Haley's ideas. Vaarsu uis was an accomplice and ultimately the person who enabled these acts, but not the person to suggest or, in Haley's case, make justifications.

Not that this makes Yukyuk's treatment any better, but I'd say Belkar and Haley share some responsibility here.

The whole order needs to get their moral compasses checked.

Zevox

2012-02-21, 10:54 AM

In this comic, V has undoubtedly forced the kobold to walk up the stairs without even checking for traps, in order for him to get zapped.
How do you come to that conclusion? My impression is that the comic simply indicates that Yuk Yuk has no ranks in search. V ordered him to search for traps to the best of his ability based on Haley's assumption that him having Rogue levels meant he had ranks in search - that he then went and simply walked up the steps would seem to indicate that was an incorrect assumption, not that V secretly ordered him not to search for the traps.

Zevox

The Pilgrim

2012-02-21, 11:03 AM

V hasn't learned a bit from her battle with ABD. She still thinks that if someone don't belongs to a player character race, it's Ok to do whatever to him.

Zarzar

2012-02-21, 11:05 AM

Considering how V has acted to Belkar in the past (Explosive Runes, Tainted coffee, wild animal humping, etc.) before the big "Ultra-Evil Event", this is merely hazing to YY before YY becomes part of the OotS.

If YY lasts that long, that is.

Pranks and hazing, while vile as they may be, are not beyond V's Neutral standing. Neutral does not mean pacifist, distanced from either side. It does mean that one can do actions on all sides of the alignment board (good and evil, lawful and chaotic) as long as it tends to average out in the long run. If V ends up helping to save the world then re-unites with family and has a happy ever after, I doubt that the Neutral afterlife would shun him/her. Unless half-camels get a different afterlife, of course.

The only really detached neutral class that I can think of is Druid (since I seem to see too many magic users that tend towards Emperor Palpatine "POWAH' alignments. All "Switzerland" until ultimate power is dangled in front of them like a carrot. Predictable, really.).

martianmister

2012-02-21, 11:08 AM

S'he learned from the best:
:xykon: "POWAH = POWAH!"

:vaarsuvius: "Yes master..."
To be fair, I'll agree with Zevox's view.

Jay R

2012-02-21, 12:07 PM

Two thoughts:

1. If one has no ranks in Search, then searching for traps to the best of ones ability means tapping with a stick or throwing a rock ahead of you, not just walking up the steps. YY is clearly not searching for traps to the best of his ability.

2. OF COURSE it's an Evil act. But V is completely neutral on the main reason that one should not use the kobold to search for traps. If Roy, Durkon or Belkar had sent the kobold instead of Haley to search, it would have been utterly wrong, because it prevents this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html) from happening.

with an e

2012-02-21, 12:58 PM

Traps can be designed such that they trigger with the presence of a man rather than the force of a stick or stone. If Yuk-Yuk has no ranks in search, then he can search for traps more efficiently by simply triggering them rather than using primitive methods one might expect from a rank 0 searcher. His action is consistent with someone with low or no ranks in search trying to find traps to the best of his ability.

And, of course, note the difference between "find" and "search." "Search" is a method oriented command, while "find" is result oriented. The difference is not immediately obvious and would not readily occur to someone issuing a casual command. Telling the kobold to find traps to the best of his ability when he has 0 ranks in search would more likely lead to his triggering them.

Zea mays

2012-02-21, 01:06 PM

If many speculators of this site are correct the fiends will temporarily take possession of V's soul when the fate of Girard's gate hangs in the balance.

The elf will get a full taste (one hopes, metaphorically) of being dominated.

I think V's treatment of Yukyuk is set up to provide a dramatic echo to what will eventually happen V.

Firewind

2012-02-21, 01:28 PM

I think you are all forgetting the number one rule to keep in mind when reading this comic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny).

There are three priorities that The Giant has when writing:

1) Rule of Funny
2) Story
3) D&D Rules/Mechanics

Squirrel_Token

2012-02-21, 01:32 PM

Oh gods. Not this thread again.

Don't people ever get tired of asking about V's gender and alignment? It seems like that's about half of the threads in here.

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 01:33 PM

Geddoe

2012-02-21, 01:36 PM

But it isn't funny, it just seems cruel. And why would Haley not be keeping her search capped anyway? Even if you don't plan to be in any dungeons at all, it would be helpful for finding hidden compartments with treasure.

Firewind

2012-02-21, 01:37 PM

V said she would issue a mental command telling YY to "search", not to "find".

Saying that you will do something and actually doing that are two different things, especially since Roy has now way of proving that V gave different instructions as they have no idea as to if the Kobald failed all it's trap search and related damage avoidance rolls.

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 01:39 PM

Since Search is not a 'trained-only' skill, it is implausible to assume that even someone with 0 ranks in it will default to 'walk up the stairs without actually searching'. Hence V's mental manipulation is the most likely culprit. (That or this kobold is exceptionally stupid--not impossible for a rogue, and we haven't seen anything demonstrating that he's exceptionally intelligent, but that's hardly sufficient evidence.)

Saying that you will do something and actually doing that are two different things, especially since Roy has now way of proving that V gave different instructions as they have no idea as to if the Kobald failed all it's trap search and related damage avoidance rolls.

Yes, but that was not the contention of the post I responded to. That post contended that everyone had mistakenly used 'find' instead of 'search', which led to the kobold triggering traps as the best way to 'find' them. But that's inconsistent with the actual dialogue.

Firewind

2012-02-21, 01:46 PM

Fair enough, was just pointing that out that's all :smallsmile:

But it isn't funny, it just seems cruel. And why would Haley not be keeping her search capped anyway? Even if you don't plan to be in any dungeons at all, it would be helpful for finding hidden compartments with treasure.

Given that she lead the Azure City resistance for nearly a year (I think) and that she has said before that Hide and Bluff are her best skills, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that she had been keeping those two skills capped while neglecting others.

It also sets up the running gag that the strip has that kobalds get abused to no end. YakYak may or may not have deserved everything that has been coming to him but the Order has done far more sociopathic (Firefox's spellchecker does not like that word so I probably misspelled it) things before. Remember that it very nearly got Roy kicked out of Lawful Good Heaven (On a similar subject of Kobald Abuse, wasn't dangling the Oracle out of a window mentioned by that Deva as well?).

Jay R

2012-02-21, 01:52 PM

And why would Haley not be keeping her search capped anyway?

Slow down a bit. The first question is, "Why would Haley say that she hasn't kept her search capped, when they have a dominated kobold who might be used to search for traps?"

You seem to have assumed that the only possible answer to this question is "Because it's true." I see no evidence for that conclusion.

Geddoe

2012-02-21, 01:59 PM

Slow down a bit. The first question is, "Why would Haley say that she hasn't kept her search capped, when they have a dominated kobold who might be used to search for traps?"

You seem to have assumed that the only possible answer to this question is "Because it's true." I see no evidence for that conclusion.

She didn't say it wasn't capped, she said she has been keeping it capped in a way that makes it obvious to us that she hasn't and then suggested the kobold instead.

with an e

2012-02-21, 02:04 PM

V said she would issue a mental command telling YY to "search", not to "find".
1. No, he did not.

2. Your response is based on the premise that Vaarsuvius distinguished between the two words when he issued the command on the fly--precisely the sort of detail that my post asserts would not be obvious to someone who is making a casual command.

Civil War Man

2012-02-21, 02:24 PM

I'm going to go with the comedy option and say that the IFCC is controlling V in 1 second increments in order to put Yuk-Yuk in danger because the kobold is some prophecized hero who will completely ruin their plans for the gate if he is not neutralized.

Kaytara

2012-02-21, 02:26 PM

And in 835, it seems that Lawful Good Durkon's biggest gripe with using the kobold as a cat litter is that they didn't kill him first. And it's not like any of them complained when Black Dragon Junior was disintegrated.

Treating monster races like human (for lack of a better word) rights don't apply to them is hardly V's unique failing - it's a systemic problem of the whole setting and one of the big Aesops the Giant is building toward, if you recall.

If we single V's behaviour out, we miss the point.

Gandariel

2012-02-21, 02:35 PM

Okay, just to clarify.
If one is told "try to find traps at the best of your ability", you:
1) take 20 in searching that square
2) interact with said square in any possible way(first a rock, then jump on it)
and repeat for every square.

He was definitely NOT searching at the best of his ability

hamishspence

2012-02-21, 02:38 PM

Treating monster races like human (for lack of a better word) rights don't apply to them is hardly V's unique failing - it's a systemic problem of the whole setting and one of the big Aesops the Giant is building toward, if you recall.

It's a trait Roy, at least, does not suffer from as much- going by Origin of PCs. And as I recall, everyone, not just Roy, glared at Belkar when he voiced the "I thought we'd kill some creatures because they have green skin and we don't" statement way back in Dungeon Crawling Fools.

If we single V's behaviour out, we miss the point.

How's that?

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-21, 02:40 PM

And in 835, it seems that Lawful Good Durkon's biggest gripe with using the kobold as a cat litter is that they didn't kill him first. And it's not like any of them complained when Black Dragon Junior was disintegrated.
They had a better case for killing the YABD than for doing what they're doing to Yukyuk. It wasn't like they were hunting the YABD down because it was a dragon; they entered the cave not knowing that a dragon lived there at all. Granted, everyone except Roy expected something to be living there, but that something was giants, and when they got there, there weren't any. That was to be expected, Roy having made them up in the first place, and not himself having a good faith belief that anything lived in the cave. The YABD then responded to their trespass with deadly force, albeit under directions from his mother. The OOTS then responded to the YABD's disproportional deadly force with deadly force of its own, of which the most effective and latest manifestation was Disintegrate.

Yukyuk's case is different. He is both more effectively neutralized and more easily talked around than the YABD. Yet they're making a choice to treat him the way they're treating him, rather than being backed into a corner by his actions towards them.

Narren

2012-02-21, 02:43 PM

We are talking about a character who shot a cat with a crossbow bolt for no reason; even Belkar is a better person than that.

He is? He murders people on a whim. He won't kill THAT particular cat, and he barely restrains himself from killing his own party members at times, but other than that he's a sociopath that doesn't care for anyone else in the world. I'm sure Yukyuk didn't want to kill Sir Scraggly or the members of the Linear Guild.

hamishspence

2012-02-21, 02:44 PM

Elan's not glaring, and V's not onscreen, but Haley, Durkon, and Roy were glaring at Belkar here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html

suggesting that they, at least, don't share his view.

FlawedParadigm

2012-02-21, 02:50 PM

"That" time of decade.

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 02:54 PM

1. No, he did not.

2. Your response is based on the premise that Vaarsuvius distinguished between the two words when he issued the command on the fly--precisely the sort of detail that my post asserts would not be obvious to someone who is making a casual command.

"I need not direct his every motion--as long as I direct him to search for traps to the best of his ability, he shall."

Now, at MAXIMUM TECHNICALITY, this is not ACTUALLY the mental command V gave YY, only the STATEMENT of what mental command he WOULD give YY--but it's still sufficient to overturn any claim that V was merely careless with his wording, as he already had the correct wording picked out. There's nothing "on the fly" about this.

Siosilvar

2012-02-21, 02:59 PM

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 03:11 PM

:vaarsuvius: I need not direct his every motion--as long as I direct him to search for traps to the best of his ability, he shall.

Bolded words mean "If". If V tells the kobold to search as best he can, then he will.

V didn't tell the kobold to search as best he can.

Agreed. My objection was, and continues to be, to the idea that V somehow screwed up on the fly by making a wording mistake.

dps

2012-02-21, 03:26 PM

And in 835, it seems that Lawful Good Durkon's biggest gripe with using the kobold as a cat litter is that they didn't kill him first. And it's not like any of them complained when Black Dragon Junior was disintegrated.

Yeah, that actually bothered me a bit. Durkon didn't seem to have a problem with the idea of simply killing a helpless, neutralized opponent, just with the idea of having a cat use a living person's mouth as a litterbox. And even then, it seemed more about him being squicked out than any moral or philosophical problem with it.

Rules Lawyer #1

2012-02-21, 04:38 PM

what does V have against him?
1. V is indifferent to the suffering of others.
2. V "understands" Belkar now - meaning V understands the desire to inflict suffering upon others (in particular when taking revenge).

Well, V is the second-most evil one in the group. Why would a neutral care about the welfare of an enemy?
Well, why would a neutral agree to inflict sadistic torture on a helpless prisoner - on a whim - and take pleasure in his silent screams?

You don't MAKE cats do anything. They do as they please. All V was guilty of was making the kobold take whatever punishment the cat deemed worthy.

Well.. either Mr. Scruffy is intelligent enough to take this action or he is a "normal" house cat in which case the blame for this action cannot be placed on Mr. Scruffy but rather must be placed on Belkar and V.

People have been demanding Roy put a stop to this, and they're right to. But another question to ask is why Blackwing isn't speaking up either.

I also wonder what Blackwing's take on all of this is… perhaps Blackwing takes a pro-animal companion view and sides with Mr.Scruffy.

So if Belkar is a useful tool, & keeping him happy (by using a kobold's mouth as a latrine) is a way to keep him useful, then s/he will do that, without remorse or even emotion. That's just the way s/he is.

Based on the history of antagonism between V and Belkar (including the Explosive Runes strips), I really don't think that keeping Belkar "happy so he can be a useful tool" is at all occurring in V's mind.

V's big character development taught him/her a lesson about the application of power and the value of one's allies, but it did not result in a change of alignment. V remains steadfastly neutral, and his/her cruel abuse of the kobold amounts to little more than a series of pranks, not unlike those repeatedly inflicted upon Belkar many strips ago—if anything, these jokes are less reprehensible with an actual villain as their butt. We are talking about a character who shot a cat with a crossbow bolt for no reason; even Belkar is a better person than that.

Interesting… so shooting a cat makes you worse than Belkar? Belkar the Sexy Shoeless God of War? Belkar who found it common place to commit multiple homicide when someone so much as looked at him the wrong way?
And sending the kobold into a potential death trap is nothing more than a prank?
…

We need a strip of V petting cats and passing out sugar-free candy to children.
Or saving salad people… he can always just save more salad people :smallsmile: (off screen, of course :smallwink: )

If V ends up helping to save the world then re-unites with family and has a happy ever after, I doubt that the Neutral afterlife would shun him/her.

It's sort of saying something that V needs to do something on the order of "saving the world" in order to balance out "pranking" and "hazing" so he can go to a "neutral" afterlife…

olthar

2012-02-21, 04:40 PM

Dominated creatures still have some control over their actions. V could have directed him to "do your best to find the traps that may be there" and he could have interpreted that as "spring all the traps in an attempt to die thereby finding all of the traps there are there."

I don't necessarily know that V commanded it to walk up without checking.

On a slightly related note, nothing V has done is evil. D&D specifies which spells are evil. Dominate Person is not one of them. Killing YY isn't necessarily a bad idea even though it is dominated. Any command that V gives it could break the domination if it is "against YY's nature." As soon as the domination is broken, YY will be a threat. In a D&D universe, it is not evil to remove a potential threat by killing it.

Using the YBD as an example, in D&D it actually expected that you'd attack someone who entered your home. In our world that would be a lawsuit or criminal trial. Different moralities call for different rules. Do I necessarily agree that dominate person is not evil while animate dead is, I don't know, but that's how the morality of the world works.

Forealms

2012-02-21, 04:43 PM

Perhaps this was YY's version of "the best of his ability." My impression was that V intended to use that exact phrasing to give the command to YY.

Maybe YY is aware that he is terrible at Searching, so he searched (lower-case) for traps in such a way that the traps would certainly be found.

Also, does anyone know how Domination affects one's sense of self-preservation, if the Dominated creature was not specifically ordered to take an action that it was aware would harm it? It seems like a Dominated creature would walk right down a dungeon corridor, running into traps along the way if ordered to walk down that corridor, simply because it wasn't aware of the traps.

How this applies is, if V's command of "search to the best of your ability" was taken by YY to mean "find the traps if there are any (to the best of your ability)," YY could walk right into the traps, recognizing that as the best way to find the traps, while also not knowing or having reason to believe the traps even exist.

Also, I don't find V's actions Evil. Certainly not Good, but not-Good does not necessarily mean Evil.

Psyren

2012-02-21, 05:04 PM

And in 835, it seems that Lawful Good Durkon's biggest gripe with using the kobold as a cat litter is that they didn't kill him first. And it's not like any of them complained when Black Dragon Junior was disintegrated.

Treating monster races like human (for lack of a better word) rights don't apply to them is hardly V's unique failing - it's a systemic problem of the whole setting and one of the big Aesops the Giant is building toward, if you recall.

If we single V's behaviour out, we miss the point.

Except V should have learned his lesson about that, especially since Blackwing called him out on it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html) If he did order YY up the stairs unsafely, then he hasn't learned at all.

King of Nowhere

2012-02-21, 05:21 PM

Well, yy shoot scruffy after all. without knowing he was an animal companion; he made it clear he liked torturing small innocent animals. As a cat owner, I say I don't care what happens to him. for every moral event horizon you cross on a cat, ten moral event horizons will be crossed on you!

The idea that the kobodoing has no ranks ion search and was therefore doing his best to find them (after all, activating them will reveal also the traps that you would have never been capable of finding) is also possible.

geomancer's hypotesis also has merit.

Themrys

2012-02-21, 05:31 PM

On a slightly related note, nothing V has done is evil. D&D specifies which spells are evil. Dominate Person is not one of them.

It probably is not defined as evil because you can, in theory, just use it like handcuffs: To make someone helpless to a certain degree.
That, in itself, is not evil, as it allows you to let someone live you might otherwise have to kill in order to save your own life. Taking advantage of that helplessness to humiliate the person, however, is evil in my opinion.

Also, I don't agree that you can do whatever you want to an evil person. Some things are always evil, regardless of whom they are done to. Humiliating someone for fun (or revenge, or whatever) is one of those things.

hamishspence

2012-02-21, 05:42 PM

Humiliating someone for fun (or revenge, or whatever) is one of those things.

Fiendish Codex 2 does establish "Humiliating an underling" as a 1 pt Corrupt act, after all.

On a par with "intimidating torture" or "casting an [evil] spell".

Jay R

2012-02-21, 06:16 PM

The answer to the original question is that V deduced that the kobold was an enemy of some sort and therefore a valid target. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html)

Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)

Kish

2012-02-21, 06:20 PM

what does V have against him?
What does Vaarsuvius have against the character whose first action in the entire comic was to Sneak Attack Vaarsuvius?

...I don't know, but I bet there's something.

ti'esar

2012-02-21, 06:25 PM

t209

2012-02-21, 06:27 PM

I kinda think Yuk Yuk's deserve the fate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) for this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html).

MrShadetree

2012-02-21, 06:41 PM

I don't understand what people get so bent out of shape for. V is neutral, not good. The kobold attacked V when he was dueling Z. So why would V care about the kobolds well being? And to head off the monster race argument does anyone actually think that being a kobold, human, bugbear, or any other race would make any difference? Yukyuk would have gotten the same treatment if he was human more or less a kobold.

ti'esar

2012-02-21, 06:43 PM

And to head off the monster race argument does anyone actually think that being a kobold, human, bugbear, or any other race would make any difference? Yukyuk would have gotten the same treatment if he was human more or less a kobold.

Actually a good point - while I've seen it brought up in the discussion threads, has anyone in the comic actually used the "he's a kobold so it's okay" argument? I think not.

Tiktakkat

2012-02-21, 06:47 PM

Well:

1. Yuk Yuk clearly states that he is ranger, making him a dual classed rogue. Of course he would still have Search as a class skill, but that does not mean he has maxed it anymore than Belkar has, or maxed his Disarm Traps for that matter.

2. V did indeed mention having Yuk Yuk to FIND traps to the best of his ability. V said absolutely NOTHING out loud about having Yuk Yuk DISARM traps, to the best of his ability or worst of his health or anything else.
So even before the technicality of if V gave the command to search for traps, nothing was said about disarming them.
Also note that Haley clearly said "V, if you could give him the proper mental commands?" with no specific mention of finding or disarming anything.
At this point, V could easily have given him a command to "Find and neutralize all traps in a manner that will keep you from being Mr. Scruffy's litter box again", and Yuk Yuk walked into them to get it over with.

3. Roy has clearly never learned why the LG guy should not go keep watch while the rest of the party "asks" the prisoner a few questions before now, and so fell for the line V and Haley fed him. I expect he will not repeat that error in the future, or at least the next 15 minutes or so until Yuk Yuk dies of less blatant causes.

Valyrian

2012-02-21, 07:10 PM

Neutral does not mean pacifist, distanced from either side. It does mean that one can do actions on all sides of the alignment board (good and evil, lawful and chaotic) as long as it tends to average out in the long run.
There are several takes on neutral but this is the worst one, imo. V's actions here are certainly not good, but they aren't evil either. Nothing indicates V necessarily did this to torture Yukyuk, V is simply indifferent to what happens to him, and that's what makes him neutral.

No need to pet dogs later on to balance his morality account.

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 07:17 PM

There are several takes on neutral but this is the worst one, imo. V's actions here are certainly not good, but they aren't evil either. Nothing indicates V necessarily did this to torture Yukyuk, V is simply indifferent to what happens to him, and that's what makes him neutral.

No need to pet dogs later on to balance his morality account.

Might need to pet Roy's bruised conscience better, though. V's neutrality to this point does imply some commitment to companionship, though not a dominant one.

psijac

2012-02-21, 07:31 PM

I'd say Durkon was the most evil. He allowed an act of malice to occur against a helpless, sentient being and even asked if they were going to kill that being first

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-21, 07:34 PM

I still think this has more to do with the Kobolds poor search skills (Which is a paralel to belkar), then with evil V.

Psyren

2012-02-21, 07:36 PM

On a slightly related note, nothing V has done is evil. D&D specifies which spells are evil. Dominate Person is not one of them. Killing YY isn't necessarily a bad idea even though it is dominated.

This notion came up before, when V hit Baby Dragon with Suggestion. BoED has this to say:

Also within the context of respectful relationships, good characters exercise caution in the use of compulsion magic to force others’ behavior. Spells such as dominate person, geas, and suggestion allow a caster to control another person, robbing that person of free will. This may not be an inherently evil act, but it certainly carries a tremendous ethical responsibility. Forcing anyone to commit an evil act, of course, is evil. Furthermore, a creature under compulsion should be treated the same as a helpless prisoner, since that creature no longer poses a threat, at least for the duration of the spell. Once an enemy is dominated, for example, he should not be killed, but shown mercy and treated the same as a prisoner who had willingly surrendered. (The same holds true for charmed and compelled creatures.)

TheSummoner

2012-02-21, 07:39 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You can call what they're doing to YukYuk torture if you like, but I call it justice. Bastard shot a cat with a crossbow. He deserved having his mouth used as a litter box. He deserved being used to disarm traps. He will deserve the next thing that happens to him and he will deserve everything that happens to him until his time under the order's control is finished. He will suffer through all of that and still be getting off easy.

So in a word...

Interesting… so shooting a cat makes you worse than Belkar? Belkar the Sexy Shoeless God of War? Belkar who found it common place to commit multiple homicide when someone so much as looked at him the wrong way?
Yes.

TheEmerged

2012-02-21, 07:42 PM

V is neutral? When did this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) change?

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 07:43 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You can call what they're doing to YukYuk torture if you like, but I call it justice. Bastard shot a cat with a crossbow. He deserved having his mouth used as a litter box. He deserved being used to disarm traps. He will deserve the next thing that happens to him and he will deserve everything that happens to him until his time under the order's control is finished. He will suffer through all of that and still be getting off easy.

So in a word...

Yes.

You're not secretly a cat, are you? :smalltongue:

TheSummoner

2012-02-21, 08:03 PM

You're not secretly a cat, are you? :smalltongue:

Crap, I've been found out! :smalleek:

Nah, I'm just a cat lover who can't stand any sort of animal abuse.

eusticepious

2012-02-21, 08:07 PM

Personally, I think more happened on the Ranch Dressing plane than we know yet. Did Qarr transport V there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) and nothing happen related to the IFCC?

What do you think Qarr and the IFCC had in mind when transporting V to the ranch dressing plane?

Onyavar

2012-02-21, 08:10 PM

Oh gods. Not this thread again.

Don't people ever get tired of asking about V's gender and alignment? It seems like that's about half of the threads in here.

OP is not asking about V's gender; and not even about his alignment, but about his recent acting. But if we judge Vs alignment based on said recent actions (this book), I can't say xe's anything but Neutral.

Good things: Reconciling with Blackwing. Helping ranch elementals to restore their king (or whatever). Freeing slaves with Haley. Taking care of Belkars cat. Helping Haley to reach that higher line, rescale the graph, battle the dragon that attacks Haley in the kickstarter comics.

Neutral things: Helping hir party in battles against slavers and evil guilds (Xe was attacked and was just defended himself --> not a good act, I peg it as neutral). Accepting the divorce from mate without attempts of reconcile (good) or force (bad). Friendly chatter with Malack.

Bad things: Kickstomping the Wizard with the Toad. Insulting people, especially Belkar. Enslaving a kobold, enjoying to let said kobold be abused as a latrine, letting the kobold be abused as trap fodder. Repeatedly kicking Belkar in the kickstarter comics.

Sum: Neutral acting.
Same applies for hir actions before the Darth-V-episode: Blowing up Belkar and save him from Miko, searching for Haley, helping to defend a city against an army and cowardly disappear when defeat is near, vanquishing pit fiends, declining the first Faustian deal with Qarr, blasting people based on the feeling that they are in the way...

V is pretty much neutralized all the way: Helping to save the world, but being involved in a lot of petty feelings like pride, revenge and egoism is a main trait of hir. If only there weren't those certain 21 minutes that could condemn hir to one hell or another...
I certainly hope that V's leaning more to the good side now so that xe's not screwing hir future... but if xe's continuing on the current path, it is certainly consistent to the established characterization. Perhaps, V might even be deemed as "True Neutral" by the evaluators in the afterlife if V would die now.

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 08:11 PM

'Sums to Neutral' isn't a measure I like to employ, personally. One life saved does not entitle a Neutral person to one murder.

Personally, I think more happened on the Ranch Dressing plane than we know yet. Did Qarr transport V there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) and nothing happen related to the IFCC?

What do you think Qarr and the IFCC had in mind when transporting V to the ranch dressing plane?

A way to keep as many pieces on the board as possible, no more or less. Decisive victories undermine destructive, unnecessary conflict, remember?

LuisDantas

2012-02-21, 08:19 PM

Vaarsuvius was characterized as a nicer person early on the strip. At some point after leaving Azure City he became (quite abruptly and without much consistency with previous strips IMO) a far more callous person.

His plot arc circa #630 was supposed to deal with that to some degree, but in all honesty I don't quite know what to make of him at this point. Among his pending divorce, the fallout from the splice and the bargain that led to it, and his insistence in keeping so many secrets from his team, this version of Vaarsuvius is far more of an unknown quantity to me than he was when I first met him.

Myou

2012-02-21, 08:22 PM

...

What kickstarter comics? :mitd:

Seriously, huh?

eusticepious

2012-02-21, 08:39 PM

' A way to keep as many pieces on the board as possible, no more or less. Decisive victories undermine destructive, unnecessary conflict, remember?

I had not thought of that and its pretty compelling. Still, it appears Qarr's intention was for ZZ'dtri to achieve a victory and transport V to what ZZ thought was the Plane of Extremely Painful Torture, so its worth considering alternative possibilities. More evidence comes from: (1) the alleged change in V's behavior, (2) the narration -- we don't know what happened on the plane except through V's hearsay, (3) the separation of V from Blackwing.

I am inclined to agree with you Math Mage that there is not more going on with the IFCC based on what we know now, but I think its worth paying attention to whether there are more clues about Ranch Dressing plane events and revisiting the subject from time to time.

Math_Mage

2012-02-21, 08:45 PM

I had not thought of that and its pretty compelling. Still, it appears Qarr's intention was for ZZ'dtri to achieve a victory and transport V to the Plane of Extremely Painful Torture, so its worth considering alternative possibilities. More evidence comes from: (1) the alleged change in V's behavior, (2) the narration -- we don't know what happened on the plane except through V's hearsay, (3) the separation of V from Blackwing.

I am inclined to agree with you Math Mage that there is not more going on with the IFCC based on what we know now, but I think its worth paying attention to whether there are more clues about Ranch Dressing plane events and revisiting the subject from time to time.

If Qarr had ever intended for ZZ'dtri to transport V to the PEPT, he wouldn't have given Z false coordinates. We don't actually know that Z would have used that Plane Shift in the event that he beat V, but either way it neutralized the possibility of that particular spell taking V out of play.

silvadel

2012-02-21, 09:07 PM

In my mind V is only neutral because of V's companions.

V has always been surrounded by people better than V -- at least on the good/evil thing. More moral or at the very least amoral in an amoral context where V couldnt get into trouble like in the ivory tower.

V has always seemed to have an evil side of neutral bent.

V doesnt understand a lot of positive emotions -- but V DOES understand and apply negative ones for V's pleasure... A lot...

Whenever V does good off-screen V always seems embarrassed by it as well.
----

At any rate I think V has only managed to walk the line on the neutral side this long because V of the environment. If V instead had joined a neutral/evil party V would slip into evil like an old shoe going on.

eusticepious

2012-02-21, 09:18 PM

If Qarr had ever intended for ZZ'dtri to transport V to the PEPT, he wouldn't have given Z false coordinates. We don't actually know that Z would have used that Plane Shift in the event that he beat V, but either way it neutralized the possibility of that particular spell taking V out of play.

Yeah, sorry. I did not write that as clearly as I ought to have. The point was that Qarr giving ZZ coordinates to transport V and instructing ZZ on how to ruffle V are efforts tot tilt things in the LG favor, and reflect an intention to actually transport V to the ranch dressing plane for some definite purpose.

ScrambledBrains

2012-02-21, 10:43 PM

I'd argue that other than the potential for it in the whole Darth V arc, V's alignment has never shifted one iota from neutral. He balances a cosmic scale, harming his enemies and aiding his companions.

Ancedotal Evidence: I've played a TN character before, Alton the Rogue.(He was my very first character, back when I thought an Archery Rogue was viable. :smallbiggrin: ) If Alton had the chance to use an enemy in ways that would protect the rest of the party and himself(note he comes after the party.), he did so without a second thought. It's how the system works, and just cause V doesn't care, that makes him evil? No, that makes hir either apathetic or uninterested, neither of which are evil-related.

Further, why would V potentially risk the life of Haley, someone V considers an extremely close friend, when they had a perfectly good trap detector right there?

Finally, V knows YY can take it. Medium Awareness, remember? "Bah, she has d10 hitdice. She was in no real danger." Did people raise a stink when V almost let Miko Explosive Ruins herself? Cause if they didn't, then they have no right to make a fuss now, since YY is actually of Evil alignment, while Miko was Lawful Good/Stupid back then.

Themrys

2012-02-22, 06:49 AM

What do you think Qarr and the IFCC had in mind when transporting V to the ranch dressing plane?

They wanted to keep V alive (after all they want to have control over hir at the right moment), and maybe they hoped to push hir a bit towards the evil end of the alignment pool by provoking hir anger with ridiculous ranch dressing creatures.

Valyrian

2012-02-22, 07:13 AM

OP is not asking about V's gender; and not even about his alignment, but about his recent acting. But if we judge Vs alignment based on said recent actions (this book), I can't say xe's anything but Neutral.

Good things: Reconciling with Blackwing. Helping ranch elementals to restore their king (or whatever). Freeing slaves with Haley. Taking care of Belkars cat. Helping Haley to reach that higher line, rescale the graph, battle the dragon that attacks Haley in the kickstarter comics.

Neutral things: Helping hir party in battles against slavers and evil guilds (Xe was attacked and was just defended himself --> not a good act, I peg it as neutral). Accepting the divorce from mate without attempts of reconcile (good) or force (bad). Friendly chatter with Malack.

Bad things: Kickstomping the Wizard with the Toad. Insulting people, especially Belkar. Enslaving a kobold, enjoying to let said kobold be abused as a latrine, letting the kobold be abused as trap fodder. Repeatedly kicking Belkar in the kickstarter comics.

Sum: Neutral acting.
First off: saving Haley from a dragon?
:belkar: I think V did that in one of the kickstarter comics, so I'm not sure if that's even the same continuity.

And secondly, every thing you listed here could be argued to be neutral acts, depending on the motivation. Insulting people is hardly evil, and the stuff V did to Yukyuk is easily neutral if V did it with indifference or cold pragmatism.

So there's no need to field the "V's alignment account is balanced" argument, which imo leads to unfortunate implications on the whole alignment system and a believable characterization of Neutral.

Quild

2012-02-22, 08:24 AM

V is neutral? When did this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) change?
What do you call "this"?
Haley thinks V went evil because of her look.
Belkar explains that it's not fair to judge V evil based on her appareance.
But he doesn't believe that, he also assumed V was evil based on her appareance and just wanted to cover her.

What kickstarter comics? :mitd:

Seriously, huh?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts?page=2
It starts downpage.

Onyavar

2012-02-22, 08:34 AM

What kickstarter comics? :mitd:

Seriously, huh?

First off: saving Haley from a dragon?
:belkar: I think V did that in one of the kickstarter comics, so I'm not sure if that's even the same continuity.

Yes, sorry, I meant "Kickstarter Graph Updates". I'm not sure if they will appear as a single bonus comic somewhen, but I'd appreacciate it.

And secondly, every thing you listed here could be argued to be neutral acts, depending on the motivation. Insulting people is hardly evil, and the stuff V did to Yukyuk is easily neutral if V did it with indifference or cold pragmatism.

So there's no need to field the "V's alignment account is balanced" argument, which imo leads to unfortunate implications on the whole alignment system and a believable characterization of Neutral.

Hm, insulting people in a mean way so that they have hurt feelings is imo an evil thing. You know, insulting policemen (or anyone in rl) can earn you a fine (or a law suit, or both). Well, I have no idea how this argument applies to the OotS world.

But I won't argue that you can question the motivation behind every action - if you calculate cold-blooded, that being a decent, friendly and helpful person will improve your social status, then it's less altruistic and more "ulterior motive".

Showing that the alignment system is either...
- broken: it doesn't reflect all possible personality traits
- not complete: you can roleplay MUCH more than the 9 alignment archetypes combined with class/race combos
- just a label: there are millions of shades of gray, and the alignment just puts everyone into one of nine boxes
- irrelevant: you can justify any evil/good act with ulterior motives that are on the opposite end of the alignment scale
...is a main point of the Giants webcomic, and thousands of threads analyzing Tarquin, Miko, V, Belkar and every single guy with a halberd can be proof of this.

Chobarth

2012-02-22, 08:52 AM

I'm not feeling a lot of moral outrage over Yukyuk - dude shoots cats for fun - but that doesn't mean V's treatment of him is okay. However, the real question here (to me) is why so many people are acting like this is a big shock. V hasn't done anything about her moral issues. She's been trying to keep her pride/ego under control (with mixed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) success (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)), but there hasn't been any sign she's ever had any moral doubts about Familicide, for instance. This behavior is hardly out-of-character.

Agreed. Slaying 1/4 of all EVIL black dragons <color coded for your convenience> hasn't seemed to be much of an issue. Not saying it was a good act in and of itself, but nothing Neutral V would really regret...

The wizard duel with Z was all about ego and control, not about moral qualms "am I right to be attempting to kill Drow?" "now that the Drow is defeated, should I refrain from making this kobold finish the job?" None of that for V... instead it was things like "BURN you terse dullard!" "believe what you wish for the final moments of your life."

Chobarth

2012-02-22, 08:55 AM

This notion came up before, when V hit Baby Dragon with Suggestion. BoED has this to say:

What is BoED?

hamishspence

2012-02-22, 09:01 AM

Book of Exalted Deeds, one of the first 3.5 splatbooks, focusing on Good just as Book of Vile Darkness (3.0) focuses on Evil.

While the mechanics sometimes have logical issues (almost seeming hypocritical to a lot of people) the fluff text tends to present a picture of compassion rather than cruelty toward those who are Evil being the ideal- an idea that it is wrong to target noncombatants of "Evil races", that prisoners must be kindly treated, and so forth.

Emulgator

2012-02-22, 09:08 AM

Razgriez

2012-02-22, 09:59 AM

If I may point something out. YY is not a straight Rogue, unlike Haley. Remember that whole Counterparts quirk of Nales? Yes? Good.

Now remember, Death's lil' helper :belkar: is a Ranger/Barbarian multiclass.

YY ver. 3 is a Multiclass Ranger/Rogue. (Note his Wolf Animal Companion earlier in the strip). For all of :haley: "It' be no worse than if you had me do it" talk, it actually is in some ways, depending on the theoretical build of YY3. (He might have taken level(s) in rogue, only for the Sneak Attack bonus). Thus, "Searching for traps to the best of his abilities" as others noted... may actually be "Walk through an area, and see what happens", that or it's just a limitation of acceptable commands for a Dominate spell. In other words, nothing "Evil" for a TN Spell caster

Or alternatively, the most simple, and the answer I personally like the best: It's done for the Comedy ladies and gentlemen, just enjoy and laugh at it :smallwink:

Psyren

2012-02-22, 10:21 AM

Wait, V heard the mental screams of YukYuk. Therefore is it possible for him to actually hear other YukYuk opinions during they stay at Plane of Ranch Dressing? That would explain his behaviour, at least partially.

Actually, no - you are aware of your thrall's emotional state, but cannot communicate telepathically. So something like a scream would come through the link (or at least, a sensation that would translate to a scream if allowed to be vocalized), but no actual words.

suzaliscious

2012-02-22, 12:25 PM

I don't see why this is so shocking. It's completely in character for V and is IMO perfectly fine. No worse than what the Belkster did anyway.

Also, you're missing the punchline. "Best of his ability" = "walk into traps" because he probably hasn't a "Search for Traps" skill at all.

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-22, 12:34 PM

YY ver. 3 is a Multiclass Ranger/Rogue. (Note his Wolf Animal Companion earlier in the strip). For all of :haley: "It' be no worse than if you had me do it" talk, it actually is in some ways, depending on the theoretical build of YY3. (He might have taken level(s) in rogue, only for the Sneak Attack bonus).
Assuming that YY and Haley have equal Intelliengce modifiers and levels, their maximum possible Search scores are actually identical. Search is a Ranger class skill. If Haley hasn't been maxing Search, it is possible that YY's could be higher. Of course, we know that YY had trouble finding Mr. Scruffy and had to rely on Sir Scraggly to find him, but Haley was stoned at the time and no one else (read: V, the only one who might know) has explained it to her. So she can't possibly know that. As for Rogue abilities, the signature, and most important, Rogue ability when it comes to finding traps comes online at level 1.

Haley was still lying to cover her posterior, but it's not YY's theoretical Searching capability that shows she was lying.

HandofShadows

2012-02-22, 01:14 PM

Good things: Reconciling with Blackwing. Helping ranch elementals to restore their king (or whatever). Freeing slaves with Haley. Taking care of Belkars cat. Helping Haley to reach that higher line, rescale the graph, battle the dragon that attacks Haley in the kickstarter comics.

A good thing(s) you (and it seems most everyone else) missed. Restoring Prince Oosalot to this throne of Hidden Valley and rescuing his girlfreind Gootrude from a sauce dragon.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html

allenw

2012-02-22, 02:37 PM

Also, you're missing the punchline. "Best of his ability" = "walk into traps" because he probably hasn't a "Search for Traps" skill at all.

Many people, myself included, believe that the punchline is in fact "V and Haley convinced Roy that they weren't just having YY set off all the traps, and then did exactly that." Supported by V and Haley's careful phrasing when speaking to/around Roy:
"As long as I issue the directive..."
"V, if you could give him the proper mental commands."

rbetieh

2012-02-22, 02:40 PM

Many people, myself included, believe that the punchline is in fact "V and Haley convinced Roy that they weren't just having YY set off all the traps, and then did exactly that." Supported by V and Haley's careful phrasing when speaking to/around Roy:
"As long as I issue the directive..."
"V, if you could give him the proper mental commands."

So then, the OP should re-title this thread as why is Haley actiong so Evil, after all she's the CG character that conspired to bring harm to a harmless Kobold....

I am of the opinion that the Kobold has 0 search ranks and nobody knew, besides there is a case to be made that he did have some kinda searching ability, he found Haleys loot :smallbiggrin:

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-22, 02:44 PM

So then, the OP should re-title this thread as why is Haley actiong so Evil, after all she's the CG character that conspired to bring harm to a harmless Kobold....

I am of the opinion that the Kobold has 0 search ranks and nobody knew, besides there is a case to be made that he did have some kinda searching ability, he found Haleys loot :smallbiggrin:
Anybody could have found Haley's loot. The Bag of Holding was sitting, plain as day, on the flagstones. YY couldn't find Mr. Scruffy, who was actively hiding from him.

with an e

2012-02-22, 03:28 PM

"I need not direct his every motion--as long as I direct him to search for traps to the best of his ability, he shall."

Now, at MAXIMUM TECHNICALITY, this is not ACTUALLY the mental command V gave YY, only the STATEMENT of what mental command he WOULD give YY--but it's still sufficient to overturn any claim that V was merely careless with his wording, as he already had the correct wording picked out. There's nothing "on the fly" about this.
That statement is not in the imperative. It is a description of the mental command he would give. Thus, it does not prove that he has the correct wording picked out. He has to reword it. It is thus insufficient to prove the degree of care he made to phrase his command.

snikrept

2012-02-22, 03:49 PM

Hm, before reading all the commentary I had assumed that what happened was: YukYuk tried to commit suicide on the traps since being a mindslave and a cat litterbox for all eternity is a pretty raw deal.

I thought the point was to highlight that what they are doing to him is pretty horrible and not at all different from some things that Tarquin does.

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-22, 03:57 PM

That statement is not in the imperative. It is a description of the mental command he would give. Thus, it does not prove that he has the correct wording picked out. He has to reword it. It is thus insufficient to prove the degree of care he made to phrase his command.
Because taking the care to reword an already carefully-worded phrase indicates...that less care went into the final product than into the example?

Hm, before reading all the commentary I had assumed that what happened was: YukYuk tried to commit suicide on the traps since being a mindslave and a cat litterbox for all eternity is a pretty raw deal.
The Domination would end in less than two weeks. Still horrible, but hardly an eternity.

Math_Mage

2012-02-22, 04:17 PM

That statement is not in the imperative. It is a description of the mental command he would give. Thus, it does not prove that he has the correct wording picked out. He has to reword it. It is thus insufficient to prove the degree of care he made to phrase his command.

I refer you to the post you quoted, which covers the argument that this isn't the command itself. He has NO need to reword anything, as the wording he has is both correct and usable as an imperative.

Pray tell, is there ANY reason why V would make the mistake of revising his wording in the actual issuance to use the word 'find' (which does not appear anywhere in the strip) instead of the word 'search' (which is used several times, including once by V himself)?

Hajutze

2012-02-22, 04:47 PM

The Domination would end in less than two weeks. Still horrible, but hardly an eternity.

Does something prevent V from casting it again every two weeks ?

KillItWithFire

2012-02-22, 05:25 PM

I would take this opportunity to point out that V couldn't have ordered the kobold to his death because as per the spell...

Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

zimmerwald1915

2012-02-22, 05:54 PM

Does something prevent V from casting it again every two weeks ?
Apart from Roy forbidding it or YY possibly rolling a plot-based natural twenty? No.

cloudland

2012-02-22, 06:09 PM

Don't forget that Kobold have racial bonus to Search check.
It's also interesting to notice that in this world, with afterlife, resurrect, regenerate and heal easily available, murder is just like armed robbery, mutilation is just making loud noise at night, but inflicting unpleasant sensation suddenly jump to the top of the list for evil act.

silvadel

2012-02-22, 06:40 PM

V is not patient.

I do NOT see V wanting to wait the hours it would have taken for YY to search properly.

V also doesnt really care about YYs welfare.

In essence that was the result of "Search the area as carefully for traps as you can with a time constraint of 2 minutes."

Kish

2012-02-22, 09:05 PM

raymundo

2012-02-22, 09:20 PM

It's not that hard to realize V is, at best, an uncaring jerk towards certain people and at worst prone to violent outbursts and mass execution (sorry, I'm unable to find a more suitable word for familicide, indiscriminately murdering 'evil' creatures is still murder). Realizing this is actually possible without resorting to an alignment category.

ti'esar

2012-02-22, 09:32 PM

Why are you assuming Prince Oosalot wasn't/isn't a horrible tyrant?

Well, the elemental we saw seemed happy to have him back, at least.

Anarion

2012-02-22, 11:16 PM

Well, the elemental we saw seemed happy to have him back, at least.

Obviously his majordomo who was plotting to overthrow him at the next opportunity. :smalltongue:

Personally, I think V considers Yukyuk an acceptable target. He ran in and started sneak attacking V. V would have been entirely justified in killing Yukyuk, but instead V dominated him and is now taking advantage of that. It's certainly not a Good act, but it might be Neutral or only minorly Evil.

Math_Mage

2012-02-22, 11:26 PM

Let's not forget that the last time V took mental control of a hostile entity that had previously attacked him, that entity ended up a mound of ash on the floor.

On the other hand, I guess that makes this an opportunity to see whether and how much V has grown.

AlaskaOOTSFan

2012-02-22, 11:41 PM

Onyavar

2012-02-23, 04:50 AM

A good thing(s) you (and it seems most everyone else) missed. Restoring Prince Oosalot to this throne of Hidden Valley and rescuing his girlfreind Gootrude from a sauce dragon.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html

If you look at my post carefully, even the part you quoted, I in fact DID mention "Helping ranch elementals to restore their king (or whatever)."
Well, I didn't bother to look up the exact words from the comic...

Why are you assuming Prince Oosalot wasn't/isn't a horrible tyrant?
Well, this is another thing entirely...
But yes, I'm just assuming this single adventure was an overall good action. However, if it goes to the book as a bonus strip, I'm sure that V will show even more gray morality during this insane trip through ranch sauce.

silvadel

2012-02-23, 10:37 AM

V more doesnt like to be bothered...

V seemed embarrassed by the whole hero schtick that V was thrown into there...

It is more a question of nothing better to do at the time while waiting.

Steven

2012-02-23, 10:32 PM

I'm a little confused as to why people think that the Dark V story arc was somehow about making V a nicer or more moral person...
I thought it was about V learning that indiscriminate use of power is not the best way to achieve your goals, learning that having more raw power does not automatically equal victory.

V seems to be absorbing this lesson although, realistically, with some hiccups along the way: No longer using disproportionate force in every situation, learning to apply power in more inventive and efficient ways etc.

As far as the living litter box thing goes.... I have trouble feeling sorry for YY because although shooting one cat might not call for such a punishment I think we can fairly extrapolate from his comments that he does this whenever he needs a diversion/gets the chance. He had it coming as far as I could see.
Of course V probably didn't have time to take note of that dialogue.

ti'esar

2012-02-23, 11:50 PM

Dr.Epic

2012-02-24, 12:01 AM

ti'esar

2012-02-24, 02:14 AM

In light of the most recent comic and certain theories about what caused a certain event in it, I'd like to advance a new possibility - we were being reminded of V's darker side, because it's about to come back to haunt the Order in a big way.

Dr. Strangelove

2012-02-26, 05:50 PM

suzaliscious

2012-02-26, 05:57 PM

Aldrakan

2012-02-26, 05:57 PM

Firstly that has been discussed, it just hasn't been discussed recently because it happened over 600 strips ago. Secondly, that happened in the earliest days of the comic when it was a gag-a-day strip. Things have changed, just a little, since then.

Edit: Haley killing Crystal was heavily debated at the time. Again, the fact there isn't currently a debate raging over their morality is because it happened a long time ago, not because they're exempt from these debates.

AlaskaOOTSFan

2012-02-26, 06:07 PM

V orders one Kobold into traps - evil.

Haley slays a defenseless, unprepared, unarmed woman while in the shower, essentially premeditated murder by today's standards - no one says anything.

What gives, people?

If you don't have the book, you don't realize that the "defenseless, unprepared, unarmed woman"......

Tried to kill Haley, explicitly, a few times. Right before.

El Gianto even sais in commentary that he wished he had time to show this in the online comic, so peeps wouldn't think Haley is all kill-crazy.

I heard there was this weird fundraising effort to get the books reprinted, if you don't have that one (Dont Split the Party I think). It really started with a kick.

Zevox

2012-02-26, 06:46 PM

V orders one Kobold into traps - evil.

Haley slays a defenseless, unprepared, unarmed woman while in the shower, essentially premeditated murder by today's standards - no one says anything.

What gives, people?
Oh, plenty of people said quite a lot about Haley's killing of Crystal. Evidently you weren't around back then, because otherwise you'd certainly remember it. It wasn't Miko or familicide level controversial, but it certainly got plenty of debate.

Also, some of us still don't believe that V ordered Yukyuk into those traps. I've certainly heard no argument that makes me believe it was anything other than a joke about him lacking searching skills. The only halfway decent arguments to the contrary require too much reading into and extrapolating from D&D rules, which the Giant would not want to be required to understand the events of the story.

Zevox

Dr. Strangelove

2012-02-26, 07:19 PM

Haley gets a pass because she's a pretty girl, and they are allowed to get away with anything.

Roy gets a pass for another reason.

SaintRidley

2012-02-26, 07:43 PM

Haley gets a pass because she's a pretty girl, and they are allowed to get away with anything.

Roy gets a pass for another reason.

The trouser titan.

Petey7

2012-02-26, 07:51 PM

Haley gets a pass because she's a pretty girl, and they are allowed to get away with anything.

Roy gets a pass for another reason.

Gut says trollin, but I'll say this anyways.

Strip 648 came out on 04-27-2009. Why is it surprising that people would be done discussing a single event almost three years after the strip came out. We saw V made Yukyuk eat cat crap and almost kill himself for the first time a few days ago. Besides, if you want to talk about Hayley or Roy, go start a thread about them. Don't be surprised when you go in a thread about V to find people discussing V's actions objectively.

Math_Mage

2012-02-26, 08:34 PM

It's amazing how every little thing V does is analyzed to see how evil it is or how many kilonazis it rates, but roy cuts the heads of sleeping goblins and no one's calling him evil for it.

Oh well, I guess there's a reason no one attacks roy for his actions or accuses him of being evil when he does what roy batty would call "questionable things".

Keep in mind that
-the goblins were known minions of Xykon
-all the goblins up to that point had attacked on sight
-it was some 50 strips in and the comic was still in its D&D rules jokes phase.

So it's not really the same kind of situation

Kish

2012-02-26, 09:03 PM

V orders one Kobold into traps - evil.

Haley slays a defenseless, unprepared, unarmed woman while in the shower, essentially premeditated murder by today's standards - lots of people on the forums flip out, at least one claiming she should go directly to the Nine Hells (and no I don't know why it was supposed to change her alignment to Lawful Evil), and a number still believe Haley did something horrible today.
Changed your post to accurately reflect reality.

I really, really wish people would stop basing arguments on false ideas about what happened in the past. It was annoying and invalid when it was, "Why are you upset Vaarsuvius didn't try to negotiate with the black dragon? No one cared when Roy killed those sleeping goblins!" It was annoying and invalid when it was, "Why are you objecting to the Familicide? No one cared when Vaarsuvius killed the young black dragon!" It was annoying and invalid when it was, "Why are you objecting to Haley killing Crystal? No one cared when Belkar killed the apprentice barbarians!" It is annoying and invalid when it is, "Why are you objecting to Vaarsuvius and Belkar torturing Yukyuk? No one cared when Haley killed Crystal!" It will be annoying and invalid when it is, "Why are you objecting to what the Order just did? No one cared when Vaarsuvius and Belkar tortured Yukyuk!"

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 06:45 AM

Roy gets a pass for another reason.

Roy didn't get a pass when he abandoned Elan, there were quite a lot of sharp comments about that.

Same as when Roy attacked Miko after she killed Shojo (verbally, and physically)- there were quite a few comments, and eventually a very long thread- which ultimately led to the moratorium on "morally justified" threads.

Paseo H

2012-02-27, 07:17 AM

With Haley, I certainly objected in a sense, not because Crystal didn't need killing, because she certainly did, it was the attitude Haley carried it out with. Ideally she should have carried it out with the grim, stoic demeanor of a necessary but distasteful deed.

Or are we now to say that good guys are allowed to take pleasure in killing others? If so, what separates them from evil or more sinister neutrals?

As for V, by themselves these acts would merely merit a "what the heck," but the thing of it is, we're seeing a pattern of continued acts of highly questionable morality, starting with semi-seriously threatening to kill Elan. I mean, when Belkar did it, he got put in his place, but why is V getting a pass on that?

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 07:45 AM

Or are we now to say that good guys are allowed to take pleasure in killing others? If so, what separates them from evil or more sinister neutrals?

What separates Evil from Nonevil is just how willing they are to commit "Evil acts" and how often they do so.

It's a bit of a blurry zone, but once someone is "routinely" committing Evil Acts, a case can be made that they are now Evil-aligned.

What separates Neutral from Good is also a bit blurry- as a general principle, Good aligned people are more willing to make personal sacrifices for strangers than Neutral people are (possible exception, Neutral person who is both self-sacrificing and very ruthless).

Paseo H

2012-02-27, 07:50 AM

Well, while I'm not sure I follow or agree, you sort of make my point about V, that these actions show that his propensity for ruthlessness has become more routine.

martianmister

2012-02-27, 08:06 AM

Also, some of us still don't believe that V ordered Yukyuk into those traps. I've certainly heard no argument that makes me believe it was anything other than a joke about him lacking searching skills. The only halfway decent arguments to the contrary require too much reading into and extrapolating from D&D rules, which the Giant would not want to be required to understand the events of the story.

This. Vaarsuvius have no reason to do something very CE-ish like this.

Paseo H

2012-02-27, 08:16 AM

This. Vaarsuvius have no reason to do something very CE-ish like this.

On the contrary, it's a simple matter of letting the enemy take on all the risk.

Mixt

2012-02-27, 08:24 AM

V is acting evil because it is the single most evil creature in existence, numbering several hundred GigaNazis on the evilness scale.

What, you didn't know?
Of course, the abomination has fooled you by pretending to be one of the good guys! CONSPIRACY!

Dr. Strangelove

2012-02-27, 08:34 AM

I seem to remember V casting feather fall to save several no name AC soldiers during the fall of the city, a rather good act IMO.

Likewise his murder of the young black dragon might be due to it's attempt to eat and digest haley alive.

V has done some good acts which kind of rule him out of being actually evil. Hell, remember when he tried to tell the people running the spell shop they were LOSING money whenever they made a sale? An evil or even neutral person would have just fleeced the putzes without even trying to tell them what was going on, V tried to show them they were hurting themselves, and of course rich was taking a poke at the D&D rules too.

Paseo H

2012-02-27, 08:38 AM

Well my argument is that he's going down a dark path since the end of the Azure City Invasion arc. The dream he had hints at a bit of survivors guilt, which is a prime ingredient in some great villains who otherwise start out good.

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 08:56 AM

V has done some good acts which kind of rule him out of being actually evil. Hell, remember when he tried to tell the people running the spell shop they were LOSING money whenever they made a sale? An evil or even neutral person would have just fleeced the putzes without even trying to tell them what was going on, V tried to show them they were hurting themselves, and of course rich was taking a poke at the D&D rules too.

This is a common view of evil characters- but it misses out on the "Evil character who thinks they are Good" type.

A character who thinks of themselves as Good, and actually does good to most people- but commits evil acts against a small section of the population, might slide into Evil alignment while retaining traditionally Good traits.

V may be only a short distance down the "slide" though- so may not have yet crossed into Evil since the last post The Giant made about V's alignment.

martianmister

2012-02-27, 09:04 AM

On the contrary, it's a simple matter of letting the enemy take on all the risk.

If that's true, s/he's not make him take risk, s/he's make him fail for no reason...

Chess Tyrant

2012-02-27, 09:12 AM

If that's true, s/he's not make him take risk, s/he's make him fail for no reason...

Not completely, mind. It's possibly YY's search skill wouldn't be great enough to find all the traps, and that somehow the Order would still trigger them going up the stairs.

But I think we'd be seeing a lot less complaining if V had ordered the kobold to disable the traps to the best of his ability, then walk straight up the stairs to make sure they were all gone.

rrgg

2012-02-27, 09:28 AM

Given that the Rule of Funny is in place and Yuk Yuk didn't die then I don't think this means anything (or essentially the equivalent of explosive runes on Belkar).

If it has to mean something then I'm guessing he was trying to kill himself.

So far V is sticking pretty well to a neutral alignment but s/he does seem to have a slight superiority complex.

martianmister

2012-02-27, 11:15 AM

Given that the Rule of Funny is in place and Yuk Yuk didn't die then I don't think this means anything

You can say same thing to Belkar. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4)

FujinAkari

2012-02-27, 11:35 AM

But I think we'd be seeing a lot less complaining if V had ordered the kobold to disable the traps to the best of his ability, then walk straight up the stairs to make sure they were all gone.

How do we know he didn't? One of the prevalent theories is that Yuk-Yuk's search skill wasn't high enough to notice any of the traps, therefore he did simply walk up the stairs since he didn't see any. Or that Yuk-Yuk didn't HAVE a search skill and so didn't search at all, both things that V wouldn't have had any way of knowing.

jere7my

2012-02-27, 11:55 AM

Also, some of us still don't believe that V ordered Yukyuk into those traps. I've certainly heard no argument that makes me believe it was anything other than a joke about him lacking searching skills.

Roy wouldn't've gotten angry if it had just been the kobold's failure to check for traps. Haley and Vaarsuvius have perfectly flat expressions; in each panel, Roy is increasingly more shocked and angry, because they tricked him into doing exactly what he said he wouldn't permit. Even if the kobold was checking "to the best of his ability," Haley and Vaarsuvius knew that he was going to simply walk up the stairs.

Why do you think Roy got angry?

Fish

2012-02-27, 11:57 AM

Why is V acting evil? First stipulating that what V did was evil — not a sure bet, as V didn't cast "control cat" and force Mr Scruffy to do anything — there's an interesting phenomenon here which hasn't been mentioned.

We know from the angel who tried to warn Roy that Vaarsuvius was sliding toward Evil. (Whether or not this particular action counts isn't important.) V's alignment is heading south, clearly, or at least in danger of doing so.

Belkar's, meanwhile, is trending toward Neutrality if not Goodness. It's been pointed out many times in the recent arc that Belkar is being affected by some long-term alignment shift.

This moment, where Belkar and V agree on something, may be the moment they meet in the middle, each going the other way.

silvadel

2012-02-27, 12:16 PM

It would be a real feather in Roy's Afterlife resume if Belkar ended up any alignment but evil at his death.

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 12:22 PM

Belkar's, meanwhile, is trending toward Neutrality if not Goodness. It's been pointed out many times in the recent arc that Belkar is being affected by some long-term alignment shift.

Haley points out that even if Mr Scruffy is a good influence on Belkar, it still averages out south of Neutral.

To quote Don't Split The Party (commentary to Round 6):

The trick with Belkar's "fake character growth" is that it is simultaneous with (mostly unrelated) real character growth. I'm not talking about him actually becoming the better person he pretends to be- fat chance of that- I'm talking about Mr Scruffy. For all his pretence and denials, Belkar forms a real connection with another living creature, maybe for the first time in his life. When we see him at the end of this chapter, he's still treating the bard, Jenny, like trash, but he looks his cat in the eye and promises to be there for him, come hell or high water. Mr Scruffy may just be a small white housecat, but he's done more to affect Belkar than all the conscious attempts to reform him ever have.

FujinAkari

2012-02-27, 01:12 PM

Even if the kobold was checking "to the best of his ability," Haley and Vaarsuvius knew that he was going to simply walk up the stairs.

Unsupportable.

Why do you think Roy got angry?

Because Roy didn't want the Kobald to walk into traps, and the kobald walked into traps. You can be angry about a result without being angry at the individual.

Also, Roy doesn't look angry. this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) is Roy's angry face. At most I would call Roy frustrated in that panel.

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 01:14 PM

Unsupportable.

Their lack of alarm at him "just walking up the stairs" might suggest it though. No hints of "That's not what was supposed to happen" in their expressions or words.

Zevox

2012-02-27, 01:20 PM

On the contrary, it's a simple matter of letting the enemy take on all the risk.
Except that it isn't. Just ordering Yukyuk to search for traps is already doing that. That is therefore not an argument in favor of V ordering him to simply walk up the stairs, deliberately not searching for traps.

Roy wouldn't've gotten angry if it had just been the kobold's failure to check for traps.
Sure he would. He's already uncomfortable with the situation and only barely acquiesced to let the Kobold do the searching in the first place. To then find out that Haley was wrong about him having the skills to do that, and thus he had effectively allowed him to be sent into harm's way for no good reason, is of course going to upset him.

Even if the kobold was checking "to the best of his ability," Haley and Vaarsuvius knew that he was going to simply walk up the stairs.
Please point to some evidence for that statement, because I see none in the comic.

Zevox

FujinAkari

2012-02-27, 01:48 PM

Their lack of alarm at him "just walking up the stairs" might suggest it though. No hints of "That's not what was supposed to happen" in their expressions or words.

This may be an argument for why Haley is acting evil, but not V. V doesn't noticeably react to most things.

Math_Mage

2012-02-27, 02:32 PM

How do we know he didn't? One of the prevalent theories is that Yuk-Yuk's search skill wasn't high enough to notice any of the traps, therefore he did simply walk up the stairs since he didn't see any. Or that Yuk-Yuk didn't HAVE a search skill and so didn't search at all, both things that V wouldn't have had any way of knowing.

The basic problem there is that not having any ranks in Search doesn't mean one has no idea HOW to search. It's not Disable Device, or Open Lock, or Know(X), or Tumble, or UMD--all Trained-Only skills. So the default behavior when ordered to search for traps should not be "walk up the stairs and hope there aren't any" regardless of what he has in Search. I mean, for the purposes of OotS it's a plausible representation, but it certainly isn't what one would expect, either from intuition or from the rulebook.

jere7my

2012-02-27, 02:35 PM

Unsupportable.

Neither Haley nor Vaarsuvius look the least bit surprised about the result. Contrasted with Roy's increasingly expressive face, it is evident that they knew exactly what would happen.

Anyway, Roy being angry at his teammates for pulling the wool over his eyes is funny. Roy being angry at a kobold for not having trap-finding skills is...nonsensical.

Zevox

2012-02-27, 02:42 PM

Neither Haley nor Vaarsuvius look the least bit surprised about the result. Contrasted with Roy's increasingly expressive face, it is evident that they knew exactly what would happen.
Not isn't - all that means is that they didn't care about what was happening. Which isn't surprisingly, since neither one has ever evinced any concern about Yukyuk.

Anyway, Roy being angry at his teammates for pulling the wool over his eyes is funny.
No it isn't. Especially when there's nothing in the comic to indicate that they did that.

What was funny in that comic was that Haley's assumption that Yukyuk had trap-finding skills was wrong, and as such all he could do was simply set off whatever traps happened to be there. The joke was that just walking up the stairs was him "searching for traps to the best of his ability."

Roy being angry at a kobold for not having trap-finding skills is...nonsensical.
It would be, but that's not what happened. Read what I posted above again. Roy was annoyed because he had been trusting Haley's assumption that the Kobold had the skills to search for traps when acquiesced to allow it, against his preferences. To then find out that she was completely wrong meant he had agreed to send the Kobold into danger for no good reason, which is of course going to be upsetting to him.

Zevox

FujinAkari

2012-02-27, 02:43 PM

The basic problem there is that not having any ranks in Search doesn't mean one has no idea HOW to search. It's not Disable Device, or Open Lock, or Know(X), or Tumble, or UMD--all Trained-Only skills. So the default behavior when ordered to search for traps should not be "walk up the stairs and hope there aren't any" regardless of what he has in Search. I mean, for the purposes of OotS it's a plausible representation, but it certainly isn't what one would expect, either from intuition or from the rulebook.

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

If the kobald is not actually a rogue (and got sneak attack from some other source) then he -cannot- search for traps, if the trap has a DC higher than 20. Do you think Girard's traps have a DC over 20? I do.

Neither Haley nor Vaarsuvius look the least bit surprised about the result. Contrasted with Roy's increasingly expressive face, it is evident that they knew exactly what would happen.

You saying it is obvious does not make it so. I see absolutely no indication that V knew what was going to occur, nor do I see any reason for him to have any knowledge as to the level of expertise with trapfinding the Kobald may or may not have had.

Anyway, Roy being angry at his teammates for pulling the wool over his eyes is funny. Roy being angry at a kobold for not having trap-finding skills is...nonsensical.

Roy being angry that the kobald got exploded when he was expressedly trying to prevent that makes perfect sense. If he were angry at Haley or V (why would he be angry at V again? Haley is very obviously the expert on scene and the one who actually seems happy that the kobald got blown up) then why wouldn't he say something? Roy isn't known for his soft-spoken ways.

FujinAkari

2012-02-27, 02:44 PM

Math_Mage

2012-02-27, 02:59 PM

If the kobald is not actually a rogue (and got sneak attack from some other source) then he -cannot- search for traps, if the trap has a DC higher than 20. Do you think Girard's traps have a DC over 20? I do.

Even if we accept that he's not the Ranger/Rogue he seems to be, there's still a distinction between actually locating a trap and merely searching for one.

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 03:01 PM

If he were angry at Haley or V (why would he be angry at V again? Haley is very obviously the expert on scene and the one who actually seems happy that the kobald got blown up) then why wouldn't he say something? Roy isn't known for his soft-spoken ways.

V is the one claiming that Yukyuk will "search for traps to the best of his ability".

jere7my

2012-02-27, 03:40 PM

You saying it is obvious does not make it so. I see absolutely no indication that V knew what was going to occur, nor do I see any reason for him to have any knowledge as to the level of expertise with trapfinding the Kobald may or may not have had.

And you saying it's obvious that they didn't know doesn't make it so. You're making an interpretation as well.

Haley's "No, no, Roy, you've got it all wrong" speech, with Vaarsuvius's tag-team support, is blindingly obviously an attempt to gull Roy with a wall of words — particularly since Haley says the kobold is "just as capable of finding cleverly-hidden high-level killer doom traps as I am" just after admitting in an aside that she hasn't been keeping up her search skills. And particularly since she makes a point of putting the "bulky magic items" aside before she sends him to walk up the stairs — knowing that they would have to make a save against several somethings if she left them with the kobold. (Why else would Rich point that out?) And particularly since Haley's response is not surprise, but "Good news! He's found some."

Haley, and by extension Vaarsuvius, knew exactly what would happen if they sent the kobold to look for traps. Everything in the comic points to that, without posting a big neon sign spelling it out. That's the only punch line that pays off the several-panel setup. You're welcome to have a different interpretation, of course, but be aware that your interpretation does not have blatant textual support either.

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 03:43 PM

That was my interpretation as well.

Zevox

2012-02-27, 06:56 PM

Haley's "No, no, Roy, you've got it all wrong" speech, with Vaarsuvius's tag-team support, is blindingly obviously an attempt to gull Roy with a wall of words
No it isn't, it's a simple argument, and one which, had her assumption that Yukyuk possessed searching skills been correct, would make perfect sense.

particularly since Haley says the kobold is "just as capable of finding cleverly-hidden high-level killer doom traps as I am" just after admitting in an aside that she hasn't been keeping up her search skills.
Roy didn't know that however, so she was making that knowing that he'd assume that she had a maxed-out search, thus arguing that he did too.

And important to note is that she had no way of knowing that Yukyuk did not, and thus no reason to want him ordered to just set off traps rather than search for them. Neither did V, for that matter. Which makes your entire interpretation make no sense from either Haley or V's perspectives.

And particularly since she makes a point of putting the "bulky magic items" aside before she sends him to walk up the stairs — knowing that they would have to make a save against several somethings if she left them with the kobold. (Why else would Rich point that out?)
Gee, perhaps for precisely the reason she says - that carrying around a bunch of big objects is only going to get in the way when he's supposed to be searching for and disarming traps?

And particularly since Haley's response is not surprise, but "Good news! He's found some."
That would be because she doesn't care about Yukyuk, so as far as she's concerned, him accidentally setting off traps is nearly as good as him actually finding and disarming them.

Haley, and by extension Vaarsuvius, knew exactly what would happen if they sent the kobold to look for traps. Everything in the comic points to that, without posting a big neon sign spelling it out. That's the only punch line that pays off the several-panel setup.
Bluntly, I find that argument absurd and completely without merit. There is no reason to believe that Haley's argument to Roy was disingenuous, as it made perfect sense - they knew that Yukyuk had used sneak attack, which pointed to him being a Rogue, which in most cases would mean skill at finding and disarming traps, and as we saw at the start of the strip Haley wanted to not have to do that herself since she hadn't been keeping her skills at it maxed out. She had no way of knowing that Yukyuk lacked the proper skills for that, and no reason to send him to deliberately set off traps either way - if he had the skills it would be better to actually have him do the searching and disarming, and if he didn't it wouldn't prevent her from having to do so herself after he set off the first few, which is precisely what happened.

Plus you're assuming that Vaarsuvius went along with this with absolutely no need for Haley to tell her about her intent, since she had no opportunity to do that. Something which V had no reason to do either.

So yeah, not a convincing argument, in the least.

Zevox

FujinAkari

2012-02-27, 09:42 PM

And you saying it's obvious that they didn't know doesn't make it so. You're making an interpretation as well.

No, because I'm not ascribing innocence to V. I'm just saying that there is question as to whether what occured was intentional. You are declaring V guilty until proven innocent, and I am merely not declaring.

Please don't put words in my mouth :P

Haley's "No, no, Roy, you've got it all wrong" speech, with Vaarsuvius's tag-team support, is blindingly obviously an attempt to gull Roy with a wall of words — particularly since Haley says the kobold is "just as capable of finding cleverly-hidden high-level killer doom traps as I am" just after admitting in an aside that she hasn't been keeping up her search skills. And particularly since she makes a point of putting the "bulky magic items" aside before she sends him to walk up the stairs — knowing that they would have to make a save against several somethings if she left them with the kobold. (Why else would Rich point that out?) And particularly since Haley's response is not surprise, but "Good news! He's found some."

All reasons to condemn Haley. None reasons to condemn Vaarsuvius

Haley, and by extension Vaarsuvius, knew exactly what would happen if they sent the kobold to look for traps.

Does not follow. V isn't psychic, that Haley knew something doesn't mean V did. And I for one am not confident that Haley DID know, but Zevox already covered the flaws in your actual argument, I am just informing you that you are declaring my position incorrectly.

Everything in the comic points to that, without posting a big neon sign spelling it out. That's the only punch line that pays off the several-panel setup. You're welcome to have a different interpretation, of course, but be aware that your interpretation does not have blatant textual support either.

I have an interpretation now? There you go putting words in my mouth again...

Metahuman1

2012-02-27, 09:50 PM

Jay R

2012-02-27, 10:30 PM

Please don't put words in my mouth :P

All reasons to condemn Haley. None reasons to condemn Vaarsuvius

There you go putting words in my mouth again...

Putting things in someone's mouth a couple of strips ago is precisely the reason to condemn Vaarsuvius.

Zevox

2012-02-27, 11:12 PM

jere7my

2012-02-27, 11:29 PM

No it isn't, it's a simple argument, and one which, had her assumption that Yukyuk possessed searching skills been correct, would make perfect sense.

It's really not. It's an overelaborate BS argument, using nothing but spur-of-the-moment out-of-the-butt circumstantial evidence, made in apparent wide-eyed innocence but with an ulterior motive (to get out of a dangerous task by throwing the kobold under the bus). That is the subtext of that speech. And there is nothing whatsoever in Haley's reaction at the end that suggests "Oh, hey, I was wrong" — she is grinning and, frankly, delighted that her plan worked out.

Roy didn't know that however, so she was making that knowing that he'd assume that she had a maxed-out search, thus arguing that he did too.

That is indeed my point: Haley is exaggerating the kobold's trap-searching skills to get out of searching for traps herself. She knows full well that he's going to trigger them, but she wants Roy to think he's got mad rogue skillz. That is the deceptive bit in her speech, and why Roy is mad at the end.

And important to note is that she had no way of knowing that Yukyuk did not, and thus no reason to want him ordered to just set off traps rather than search for them. Neither did V, for that matter. Which makes your entire interpretation make no sense from either Haley or V's perspectives.

In that case, they sent the kobold into a dangerous situation on the assumption that he had skills. That is no different, morally, from sending him in knowing he had no skills — either way, they don't care what happens to the kobold. If he triggers the traps, fine. If he somehow manages to disarm the traps, also fine. And that's not what she implied in her argument to Roy, to get him to sign off on the plan — she convinced him that the kobold had mad find/remove traps skillz.

Gee, perhaps for precisely the reason she says - that carrying around a bunch of big objects is only going to get in the way when he's supposed to be searching for and disarming traps?

But why would Rich waste half a panel telling us that? If that's all it was, no reader would blink at seeing the magic carpet sitting on the ground next to Haley in the next panel, word balloon or no. Rich chose to emphasize the fact that Haley was getting the valuables out of the way before she sent the kobold up the stairs, to add still more subtext to the already heaping pile saying "Haley expected the kobold to trigger the traps."

That would be because she doesn't care about Yukyuk, so as far as she's concerned, him accidentally setting off traps is nearly as good as him actually finding and disarming them.

Yyyyyyes. This, again, is my point. She sends the kobold up the stairs with no expectation that he'll be able to disarm the traps, because, either way, she's happy with the result. But to get there, she has to stretch the truth to convince Roy of her plan, which makes Roy grouchy when the light dawns in the last panel.

Plus you're assuming that Vaarsuvius went along with this with absolutely no need for Haley to tell her about her intent, since she had no opportunity to do that. Something which V had no reason to do either.

Vaarsuvius is just as happy to let the kobold who tried to kill her get blown up. And she, like me, is clever enough to read between the lines of Haley's BS and jump in to fill the gaps when needed.

So yeah, not a convincing argument, in the least.

Subtext matters. Not everything is spelled out for you.

jere7my

2012-02-27, 11:34 PM

I have an interpretation now? There you go putting words in my mouth again...

You said, "[Roy is angry] because Roy didn't want the Kobald to walk into traps, and the kobald walked into traps. You can be angry about a result without being angry at the individual. Also, Roy doesn't look angry. [...] At most I would call Roy frustrated in that panel."

That is an interpretation. Two, really.

ti'esar

2012-02-27, 11:37 PM

jere7my

2012-02-27, 11:41 PM

I can say that shorter:

There is no reason to believe that Haley's argument to Roy was disingenuous, as it made perfect sense [...] She had no way of knowing that Yukyuk lacked the proper skills for that

Haley's argument to Roy was "The kobold is an expert trap-disarmer, like me, so it is not unethical to send him to disarm traps."

Haley, as you say, did not know the kobold's skill level. But she asserted that he had mad skillz, in a slightly weaselly, implying-without-stating, way.

That makes the argument disingenuous. She did not know, but she made Roy think she did. Dig?

FujinAkari

2012-02-28, 12:42 AM

So let me get this straight: both of you agree at this point that Yukyuk got blown up because he has next-to-no ranks in Search, and are debating now whether Haley and V expected that was the case?

This thread has just gotten even more ridiculous.

Well.. yeah.

If V had no idea that YakYak wasn't a good trapfinder but withheld that information, then he is definately committing an evil act. Two of them, technically.

However, if V is accepting Haley's apprisal of the situation (she is an expert, after all) and believes YakYak should be just as good at trapfinding as Haley would be, then he isn't doing anything wrong. As the Deva said, you aren't judged on effectiveness.

So the question is whether V thought Haley was telling the truth, or if he somehow suspected that YakYak hadn't put any ranks in search but covered up that information.

You said, "[Roy is angry] because Roy didn't want the Kobald to walk into traps, and the kobald walked into traps. You can be angry about a result without being angry at the individual. Also, Roy doesn't look angry. [...] At most I would call Roy frustrated in that panel."

That is an interpretation. Two, really.

You asked why Roy was angry, I gave you an answer. That doesn't mean that is what I believe, just that it is a valid response.

I personally believe that V likely was unsure whether it would work or not but frankly wouldn't mind the kobald getting exploded, so he didn't object to the plan as any outcome was acceptable. However, I am not going to condemn him based on nothing more than my opinion when completely benign explanations exist.

I can say that shorter:

Haley's argument to Roy was "The kobold is an expert trap-disarmer, like me, so it is not unethical to send him to disarm traps."

Where exactly does Haley say this? You are quoting her, so surely you must have a source.

Haley, as you say, did not know the kobold's skill level. But she asserted that he had mad skillz, in a slightly weaselly, implying-without-stating, way.

We can note she never asserted this. All she asserted was that she wasn't a good trapfinder, but the kobald could be. It was a choice between sending someone who couldn't do the job, or someone that might be able too.

That makes the argument disingenuous. She did not know, but she made Roy think she did. Dig?

Its only disingenuous if she actually said what you are quoting her as saying. She didn't.

Zevox

2012-02-28, 01:45 AM

In that case, they sent the kobold into a dangerous situation on the assumption that he had skills. That is no different, morally, from sending him in knowing he had no skills — either way, they don't care what happens to the kobold. fiIf he triggers the traps, fine. If he somehow manages to disarm the traps, alsone. And that's not what she implied in her argument to Roy, to get him to sign off on the plan — she convinced him that the kobold had mad find/remove traps skillz.
This is not at all the case. Sending him in thinking it likely that he will be able to locate and disarm the traps is simply sensible if she suspects that she may not be to do it. Sending him in knowing that he'll simply trip them is a terrible way to treat a helpless, mind-controlled prisoner. Not morally equivalent at all. That was why Roy had to be convinced that the Kobold probably had such skills - which you'll note was explicitly on the basis of assuming that him being able to sneak attack meant he was a Rogue which meant he had those skills - since, unlike Haley, he would care about the difference.

But why would Rich waste half a panel telling us that? If that's all it was, no reader would blink at seeing the magic carpet sitting on the ground next to Haley in the next panel, word balloon or no.
Because it's part of Haley soothing Roy's fears. She's continuing to point out that she's being perfectly sensible in this, not sending the Kobold to do his searching with a bunch of junk that will just get in his way.

Yyyyyyes. This, again, is my point. She sends the kobold up the stairs with no expectation that he'll be able to disarm the traps, because, either way, she's happy with the result.
The bolded part is where you have no argument. There is no reason to believe that Haley had no such expectation - as I pointed out above, it was impossible for her to know for certain whether the Kobold had those skills or not. Therefore it's only logical that she would very well expect him to, since that's a standard thing for Rogues, and since she made precisely that argument to Roy.

Vaarsuvius is just as happy to let the kobold who tried to kill her get blown up. And she, like me, is clever enough to read between the lines of Haley's BS and jump in to fill the gaps when needed.
So in other words, you're assuming that V assumed the same things that you're assuming. Considering I see no basis for any of those assumptions, I am not convinced.

Subtext matters. Not everything is spelled out for you.
And sometimes people assume things that simply aren't true.

I can say that shorter:

Haley's argument to Roy was "The kobold is an expert trap-disarmer, like me, so it is not unethical to send him to disarm traps."

Haley, as you say, did not know the kobold's skill level. But she asserted that he had mad skillz, in a slightly weaselly, implying-without-stating, way.

That makes the argument disingenuous. She did not know, but she made Roy think she did. Dig?
Haley's statements make it quite clear that she did not know. She walked Roy through her logic explicitly: V told her that he used sneak attack, therefore he's a Rogue, therefore he has searching skills. The last is an assumption, and anyone passingly familiar with D&D would know that. Roy, living in a world where D&D rules are like the laws of physics, is more than passing familiar with them, so he would know that.

So no, the argument was not disingenuous. Moreover, the fact that her own words imply her lack of knowledge pretty much kills any argument you might try to make that she did know that he lacked those skills.

Zevox

jere7my

2012-02-28, 02:29 AM

Haley's statements make it quite clear that she did not know. She walked Roy through her logic explicitly: V told her that he used sneak attack, therefore he's a Rogue, therefore he has searching skills. The last is an assumption, and anyone passingly familiar with D&D would know that. Roy, living in a world where D&D rules are like the laws of physics, is more than passing familiar with them, so he would know that.

I notice you didn't address the fact that "there is nothing whatsoever in Haley's reaction at the end that suggests 'Oh, hey, I was wrong' — she is grinning and, frankly, delighted that her plan worked out." Haley is not surprised. Haley does not say "Oops." Haley does not acknowledge Roy's growing ire in any way. Her, and Vaarsuvius's, complete lack of expression in the last three panels, and lack of any change in their expression as the Kobold sets off the traps and flies through the air, and Haley's cheerful final speech bubble, are the punch line that answers the setup: they knew exactly what was going to happen. Haley's little smile as she tells Vaarsuvius to issue "the proper mental commands" supports that as well — she is anticipating the fireworks.

Everything else in your post is a repeat of what you said before, which I've already responded to. I'm done with this argument; it's going in circles, and you and FujinAkari are cherry-picking individual lines from my posts to reply to, without including the context. You are welcome to your interpretation, however blindingly wrong it may be.

But sometimes you need to read between the lines to understand authorial intent, and insistently repeating the lines over and over isn't the path to understanding.

Dr. Strangelove

2012-02-28, 03:07 AM

Roy sure has come a long way from cheerfully lopping the heads off sleeping gobbos to now being uncomfortable with the treatment of YY.

I wonder if it's because YY has a name? Is it more morally acceptable to kill people, even sleeping ones, if they have no name? Once a character has a name revealed does he become more worthy of consideration? Does an evil act against a character with no name simply not bother anyone?

ti'esar

2012-02-28, 03:41 AM

Celestin

2012-02-28, 11:35 AM

I notice you didn't address the fact that "there is nothing whatsoever in Haley's reaction at the end that suggests 'Oh, hey, I was wrong' — she is grinning and, frankly, delighted that her plan worked out." Haley is not surprised. Haley does not say "Oops." Haley does not acknowledge Roy's growing ire in any way. Her, and Vaarsuvius's, complete lack of expression in the last three panels, and lack of any change in their expression as the Kobold sets off the traps and flies through the air, and Haley's cheerful final speech bubble, are the punch line that answers the setup: they knew exactly what was going to happen. Haley's little smile as she tells Vaarsuvius to issue "the proper mental commands" supports that as well — she is anticipating the fireworks.

So the in the panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html) in question, you are saying that because V and Haley are not reacting to him walking into traps they are committing an evil act. Well, even though he hadn't been a part of convincing Roy that it was a good idea, I do not see Elan reacting. If we could see how the other two members of the order reacting then I believe it would be a better way to determine what happened. The actual evil one is probably smiling and laughing, while I would assume Durkon has the same blank expression. It also looks as though Durkon or someone else healed the kobold. So no real harm done.

Also, it is completely alright for Haley and V to assume that YY has ranks in search. Not only is he a rogue where one of the main contributions is finding traps, he is also a ranger. Rangers also have search as a class skill. So it is in a likeliness that he has ranks in search.

Also, even if they assume he hasn't maxed out his search score, how is it worse to send their ally into harms way than the Kobold. Sure Haley would be choosing to and YY would be forced to, but at the end of the day YY is Evil. They are eventually going to kill him at some point unless he accepts the offer in the last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) So why risk the HP of an ally who is helping save the world over a cat torturer who is going to die soon? Sure it may not be a good act, but it is not an evil act. It is the logical choice.

Jay R

2012-02-28, 12:07 PM

Putting things in someone's mouth a couple of strips ago is precisely the reason to condemn Vaarsuvius.Yes, but that's a separate incident from the one FujinAkari and I are debating with jere7my about.

Giggle. You maintain that there is no reason to condemn Vaarsuvius for being willing to torture YY this time, despite the facts that:
A. V did in fact torture him this time, and
B. We've seen V willing to do so earlier the same day?

Ummm... I guess I have no more to say, then.

jere7my

2012-02-28, 12:09 PM

So the in the panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html) in question, you are saying that because V and Haley are not reacting to him walking into traps they are committing an evil act.

No. I am saying Haley and Vaarsuvius knew exactly what would happen, and tag-teamed Roy with BS to get him to agree to it, which is the only way the comic payoff matches the setup. I think the strip is too silly and slapstick to be a serious commentary on anyone's alignment — this strip falls on the "cartoon" side of the comic spectrum, unlike the next one.

Elan is failing to react because he's Elan.

B. Dandelion

2012-02-28, 12:41 PM

My interpretation was that Haley and Vaarsuvius conned Roy using a lot of Exact Words and sent the kobold up the stairs to get blown up. The moral condemnation issue is separate, but my reading of the characters is that it isn't something either of them would flinch from, so I'm going to stick with that interpretation unless something later comes along that would cast doubt on it.

hamishspence

2012-02-28, 12:45 PM

V isn't psychic, that Haley knew something doesn't mean V did.

It does make V look like a dupe, if Haley knows exactly what will happen when V gives the orders Haley's recommending to Yukyuk, but V does not.

And somehow, I don't find this entirely consistant with V as presented, to be duped so easily.

Easier to believe the two both know what will happen.

Kish

2012-02-28, 06:25 PM

I doubt very much that either Vaarsuvius or Haley was seriously, for one moment, under the impression that Belkar's newest Linear Guild mirror was a dedicated rogue capable of holding a candle to Haley's trapfinding skills.

FujinAkari

2012-02-28, 08:34 PM

Giggle. You maintain that there is no reason to condemn Vaarsuvius for being willing to torture YY this time, despite the facts that:
A. V did in fact torture him this time, and
B. We've seen V willing to do so earlier the same day?

Ummm... I guess I have no more to say, then.

Ah, the old "Person did evil once and is therefore automatically guilty of any potential evil since." argument.

Hi Miko!

No. I am saying Haley and Vaarsuvius knew exactly what would happen, and tag-teamed Roy with BS to get him to agree to it

What, specifically, did they say that was BS? Did the kobald not sneak attack? Does dominate person not work the way that V claimed it did?

Elan is failing to react because he's Elan.

But V's failing to react for reasons entirely separate from him being V?

I doubt very much that either Vaarsuvius or Haley was seriously, for one moment, under the impression that Belkar's newest Linear Guild mirror was a dedicated rogue capable of holding a candle to Haley's trapfinding skills.

Ah, of course, because Haley and Vaarsuvius both specialize in dramatic convention, and because the Linear Guild has shown awareness and attention to Belkar's skill in tracking, so they absolutely be interested in making an opposite that wasn't an opposite in that regard.

Kish

2012-02-28, 08:48 PM

Ah, the old "Person did evil once and is therefore automatically guilty of any potential evil since." argument.

Hi Miko!

Are you suggesting that Vaarsuvius would balk at using Yukyuk to spring traps?

If you aren't, then your rhetoric is ill-used. If you are...then I'm mystified that you'd think so.

What, specifically, did they say that was BS?

That they thought there was a chance in hell that Yukyuk could find traps anywhere near as well as Haley.

But V's failing to react for reasons entirely separate from him being V?

Vaarsuvius is failing to be upset precisely because s/he is someone who doesn't mind torturing Yukyuk.

Ah, of course, because Haley and Vaarsuvius both specialize in dramatic convention,

If by this sarcasm you mean "are aware of the lack of fourth wall and look through it freely"...

and because the Linear Guild has shown awareness and attention to Belkar's skill in tracking, so they absolutely be interested in making an opposite that wasn't an opposite in that regard.
I don't even know what point you consider yourself to be arguing now. Whether the Linear Guild thought in terms of "we need a mirror for Belkar/a tracker" or not, a mirror to Belkar is what they got, as they always do. If you want to pretend there's a fourth wall, then "they chose a second rogue, instead of a warrior with a tiny rogue dip for Sneak Attacks, for their sixth party slot" makes even less sense.

jere7my

2012-02-28, 09:01 PM

What, specifically, did they say that was BS? Did the kobald not sneak attack? Does dominate person not work the way that V claimed it did?

As I said a few posts back, she was BSing in "a slightly weaselly, implying-without-stating, way." My point is that she was sticking close to the letter of the truth while implying something very different from what she actually believes. Her only outright lie was "I'm sure..." — she's not sure at all, and in fact is pretty sure he's gonna get blowed up real good.

But at this point, we are only repeating ourselves. I'm not going to reply to any more iterations of the same point.

But V's failing to react for reasons entirely separate from him being V?

Not at all. Vaarsuvius is unconcerned and unsurprised, which is what we would expect of someone who doesn't care whether the kobold lives or dies and has just deliberately sent him in to trigger a mess of traps. That's 100% in character for her.

Elan is gullible, is what I meant by that. (I realize I should say things plainly when speaking to you, since someone has apparently cast Invisibility to FujinAkari on all the subtext around here.) Elan swallowed Haley's BS without blinking. When he saw the kobold walking into the traps, he assumed that he was indeed "really good at" finding traps, because Haley said he was. He wasn't surprised by what happened because he can incorporate any eventuality, however ridiculous, into his settled worldview, provided Haley has assured him that it's all good. "Haley said he can find traps, and he sure is finding a lot! Gosh, it looks like that hurts. But Haley said he knew what he was doing, so I won't worry."

Neither Haley nor Vaarsuvius are gullible or simple. Their complete lack of reaction, and Haley's pleased outburst at the end, suggest they knew just what was coming. If Haley had made an honest mistake, she would at least have looked chagrined.

FujinAkari

2012-02-28, 09:34 PM

Are you suggesting that Vaarsuvius would balk at using Yukyuk to spring traps?

If you aren't, then your rhetoric is ill-used. If you are...then I'm mystified that you'd think so.

I think I was already clear on my own beliefs towards what occured.

That they thought there was a chance in hell that Yukyuk could find traps anywhere near as well as Haley.

Haley says she hasn't been keeping her points in Search, which likely means her search skill is the same as it was in the Dungeon of Durokan... ten levels ago. I can probably find traps better than Haley at this point.

[/quote]Vaarsuvius is failing to be upset precisely because s/he is someone who doesn't mind torturing Yukyuk.[/quote]

This in no way indicates he intended or expected Yukyuk to get exploded, it was just gravy when it happened.

I don't even know what point you consider yourself to be arguing now. Whether the Linear Guild thought in terms of "we need a mirror for Belkar/a tracker" or not, a mirror to Belkar is what they got, as they always do. If you want to pretend there's a fourth wall, then "they chose a second rogue, instead of a warrior with a tiny rogue dip for Sneak Attacks, for their sixth party slot" makes even less sense.

I am really pointing out the sheer implausibility of the LG to get someone similar to Belkar in a trait they have no idea he has, coupled with the bizarre belief that they would get someone the same as Belkar when they, ya know, are going for opposites.

Her only outright lie was "I'm sure..." — she's not sure at all, and in fact is pretty sure he's gonna get blowed up real good.

Unless you're Rich, you have no ability to say Haley was lying about what Haley believed, so even calling this an outright lie is misfounded.

But at this point, we are only repeating ourselves. I'm not going to reply to any more iterations of the same point.

That's fine. So far the argument has been "Haley believed this!" "Well, not necessarily, this is also a valid interpretation." "NO! Haley believed this!" Your interpretation is valid, it just isn't the only one, and has some pretty major plausibility problems, but you can believe whatever you want. Other people also have the same right :)

Not at all. Vaarsuvius is unconcerned and unsurprised, which is what we would expect of someone who doesn't care whether the kobold lives or dies

This is correct.

and has just deliberately sent him in to trigger a mess of traps.

This is not, it is pure opinion.

Neither Haley nor Vaarsuvius are gullible or simple. Their complete lack of reaction, and Haley's pleased outburst at the end, suggest they knew just what was coming. If Haley had made an honest mistake, she would at least have looked chagrined.

They considered it a possibility, we ARE talking about an epic level trap-maker. That doesn't mean that the same wouldn't have happened if Haley had done it herself, however.

jere7my

2012-02-28, 10:26 PM

Unless you're Rich, you have no ability to say Haley was lying about what Haley believed, so even calling this an outright lie is misfounded.

That's fine. So far the argument has been "Haley believed this!" "Well, not necessarily, this is also a valid interpretation." "NO! Haley believed this!" Your interpretation is valid, it just isn't the only one, and has some pretty major plausibility problems, but you can believe whatever you want.

Here's the thing, FujinAkari. Of course my interpretation is one of many. It's fundamental to modern literary theory that multiple interpretations can be drawn from the same work. It doesn't move the discussion forward for you to play traffic cop and say, "Aha, you may be right, but other interpretations may be right too!" That's a given, okay?

My interpretation squares with the evidence, and makes sure all the setup in the first N panels points toward the comic payoff in the last. It is what I would consider to be the "plain reading" of the text, though it requires some filling in the blanks. Sometimes, it is necessary to fill in blanks in a creative work to arrive at understanding, but you seem reluctant to do so, or insistent on pointing out that the blanks could be filled in differently. That is obvious; it just results in a less successful whole.

B. Dandelion

2012-02-28, 10:45 PM

Haley says she hasn't been keeping her points in Search, which likely means her search skill is the same as it was in the Dungeon of Durokan... ten levels ago. I can probably find traps better than Haley at this point.

This is what I think she meant too -- she's using Exact Words, "he could find traps as well as I could," when she doesn't think she could find them at all.

It is the literal truth, but she knows Roy will think she means something else. Which makes it no different from deception in my book.

Math_Mage

2012-02-28, 11:36 PM

This is what I think she meant too -- she's using Exact Words, "he could find traps as well as I could," when she doesn't think she could find them at all.

It is the literal truth, but she knows Roy will think she means something else. Which makes it no different from deception in my book.

It's also possible that she's merely indifferent to how YY approaches the issue--as long as it isn't her on the steps, she's happy. I doubt she'd have been annoyed if YY HAD proved capable at Searching. She deceived Roy into thinking that her Search was maxxed AND YY's must be maxxed--this doesn't mean that she knows YY had no ranks in Search, though we the readers got an informal clue when he had trouble finding Mr. Scruffy (obviously not a reference to official Search rules :smalltongue:).

As before, it comes down to whether the kobold's behavior is a plausible response to "search for traps to the best of your ability" if he has no ranks in Search. As a gag-a-day mirror to Belkar's lack of ranks in Track, I think it's entirely plausible as a narrative justification, even if it isn't a likely interpretation of the rules.

FujinAkari

2012-02-29, 12:28 AM

This is what I think she meant too -- she's using Exact Words, "he could find traps as well as I could," when she doesn't think she could find them at all.

It is the literal truth, but she knows Roy will think she means something else. Which makes it no different from deception in my book.

Well sure. I don't think anyone is debating whether or not Haley made the situation sound more certain than she was. What is being debated is the bizarre idea that Haley and V somehow -knew- Yuk Yuk couldn't disarm traps, despite having absolutely no reasonable justification for any level of expertise as to the kobald's abilities in that area.

As I see it, there were two choices: Rogue A with a 20% (if that!) chance of disarming the traps, and Rogue B with a ???% chance. The cost of failure is healing spells. Do you send the rogue who is known to be terrible, or the rogue who might be able to do it?

While, clearly, Haley and V don't care that Yuk-Yuk got hurt, I really don't see where this certainty that they -knew- he would fail comes from.

Jay R

2012-02-29, 03:34 PM

Giggle. You maintain that there is no reason to condemn Vaarsuvius for being willing to torture YY this time, despite the facts that:
A. V did in fact torture him this time, and
B. We've seen V willing to do so earlier the same day?

Ummm... I guess I have no more to say, then.Ah, the old "Person did evil once and is therefore automatically guilty of any potential evil since." argument.

Hi Miko!

The problem with this argument is that it ignores my actual words.

Look above at my argument, and you will see trwo pieces of evidence, clearly labeled "A" and "B". To claim that I o0ffered only one piece of evidence is simply an untruth.

Two pieces of evidence:

Because V is in fact right now torturing YY, and
Because V has shown, this very day, a willingness to torture YY,
Then it is reasonable to assume that V is choosing to torture YY.

Not "he did evil once", but V's actions are doing evil now (using Domination in a way that will hurt YY), AND we have evidence that V is willing to do that specific evil (using Domination in a way that will hurt YY) today.

There is no question whether Y is in fact using Domination in a way that is hurting YY. V is. We saw YY blown back and everything. The only way to defend V would be to maintain that it's clearly an accident since V would never do that, but that defense is gone. V would do that. V did it today.

Or perhaps there is one more last-ditch defense - "Well, OK, V is willing to do it today, and is doing it right now, but it doesn't "count" as doing it because the proof of willingness to torture was this morning, and maybe V has had a complete change of heart since then. Even though V is clearly doing the same thing now, maybe this time it's a complete accident."

Come on.

Math_Mage

2012-02-29, 04:23 PM

The problem with this argument is that it ignores my actual words.

Look above at my argument, and you will see trwo pieces of evidence, clearly labeled "A" and "B". To claim that I o0ffered only one piece of evidence is simply an untruth.

Two pieces of evidence:

Because V is in fact right now torturing YY, and
Because V has shown, this very day, a willingness to torture YY,
Then it is reasonable to assume that V is choosing to torture YY.

Not "he did evil once", but V's actions are doing evil now (using Domination in a way that will hurt YY), AND we have evidence that V is willing to do that specific evil (using Domination in a way that will hurt YY) today.

There is no question whether Y is in fact using Domination in a way that is hurting YY. V is. We saw YY blown back and everything. The only way to defend V would be to maintain that it's clearly an accident since V would never do that, but that defense is gone. V would do that. V did it today.

Or perhaps there is one more last-ditch defense - "Well, OK, V is willing to do it today, and is doing it right now, but it doesn't "count" as doing it because the proof of willingness to torture was this morning, and maybe V has had a complete change of heart since then. Even though V is clearly doing the same thing now, maybe this time it's a complete accident."

Come on.

Actually, what that scene shows is that V would let Belkar/Mr. Scruffy do that, because V is entirely indifferent to YY's well-being, but not actively pursuing his pain or demise. As such, the "this might work, but if it doesn't I don't care" attitude explains V's actions just as well as the "I know this won't work and I want YY to suffer" attitude. From what we know of V and what V knows (and doesn't know, re: YY's Search ranks), the former attitude seems more likely than the latter. And from what we know of Haley (CG, ultimately IS willing to go Search the stairs herself), the former attitude is DEFINITELY more likely.

Mightymosy

2012-02-29, 05:28 PM

Yukyuk is "...just walking up the stairs."

He is not searching carefully for traps. You can interpret it anyway you want, but the most intuitive way for me is they are "sending the dominated guy to go trigger all the traps".

What are the mental commands V is giving?

We don't know. Where would you put your money?
A) Walk up these stairs!
B) Carefully look for traps on these stairs, try not to get hurt!
C) Look for traps, try not to get hurt, but finding them is more important than your health!

Even if your search skill is 0, when you are given the command to search for traps, you are not just walking up these stairs and triggering them.

Of course this is not evidence at all, because we can't read V's thoughts.

But if you consider the comic before, with the cat poop, I think you can, in all honesty, make a pretty good judgment call for yourself which option you find more likely.

Haley says: "I'm sure he's just as capable of finding cleverly hidden doom traps as I am."
With that, she's giving her true intent away: She is absolutely afraid of getting killed - because of her low search skill AND the possibility of deadly traps set by an EPIC spellcaster - like the one his hologram set off in the desert before.
Haley doesn't want to get killed or harmed, so she let's the kobold catch the fire instead.
Her words and expression in the last panel show the delight that her plans have worked.

Was it Haley's intent to walk the Kobold into the trap instead of really trying to search?
We can't know for sure - again, no thought balloons. But the conspirative moment Haley and V share in the panel where Scruffy jumps off Yukyuk's head, together with the fact they both show no emotion when the Kobold walks instead of searching, then later her joy when he explodes, lead me to believe - strongly - that Haley's preferred way of handling this situation was indeed using Yukyuk to set off the traps.

(On a side note, it completely fits her character to persuade others to do what she wants without actually saying things aloud that could later be held against her. The fact that we have this discussion is a sign of good character writing on Rich's part, IMO)

Anyway, even if Yukyuk had maximum Search skills, and all of the order knew that for sure, it would still have been an evil act to send him to search for traps.
Not Familicide-level-evil, mind you.
It certainly was understandable, given Haley's fear was not at all unmotivated, and their hatred for Yukyuk was for good reasons.
But nevertheless it was an evil act.

In our world it would clearly be considered a crime.

FujinAkari

2012-02-29, 06:29 PM

Even if your search skill is 0, when you are given the command to search for traps, you are not just walking up these stairs and triggering them.

This is incorrect. Per SRD if your search skill is 0, you -cannot find- traps with a DC higher than 10. Thus, if the traps had a DC higher than 10, then YukYuk cannot search for them (assuming he has no ranks).

Even more likely, however, is that YukYuk's search roll didn't yield in him noticing anything, so he simply walked forward. The strip works fine as a play on the specifics of the ruleset, or as a subversion of expectations, as it does on some "Ooooh... V is being totally evil" motif, especially as that motif would be totally out of character for him. V is ambivalent and uncaring, but has rarely (if ever?) shown any inkling to be needlessly cruel, with the exceptions of Belkar, who totally brought it on himself, and Familicide.

Is it possible V is just being a sadistic censored? Yes.

Is it likely? No, other explainations make more sense

Math_Mage

2012-02-29, 07:21 PM

This is incorrect. Per SRD if your search skill is 0, you -cannot find- traps with a DC higher than 10. Thus, if the traps had a DC higher than 10, then YukYuk cannot search for them (assuming he has no ranks).

You're confusing Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) with Track (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#track). Someone without the Track feat can't use the Survival skill to follow Tracks with a DC higher than 10. A non-rogue, however, can find traps whose DC is 20 or lower, and can still SEARCH for traps even if he can't find ones with higher DCs. Moreover, this requires YY to be something other than the intuitively obvious Ranger/Rogue combination.

Per RAW, YY should be able to make a Search check, and even take 20, no matter how many ranks he has or what class he is. However, this may be a case of Rule of Funny. That's the case you should be making, rather than a misguided RAW argument.

While anyone can use Search to find a trap whose DC is 20 or lower, only a rogue can use Search to locate traps with higher DCs.

Even more likely, however, is that YukYuk's search roll didn't yield in him noticing anything, so he simply walked forward.

Except that the act of searching was not noted anywhere in the strip. Indeed, it was noted that he did nothing except walk up the stairs.

Jay R

2012-03-03, 12:28 PM

Actually, what that scene shows is that V would let Belkar/Mr. Scruffy do that, because V is entirely indifferent to YY's well-being, but not actively pursuing his pain or demise.

Simply not true. V had to issue the command "Lie down face upwards with your mouth open." That's active involvement.

Dungeonstone

2012-03-03, 04:00 PM

In this comic, V has undoubtedly forced the kobold to walk up the stairs without even checking for traps, in order for him to get zapped.

A few comics before, V had Mr scruffy poop in the Kobold's mouth, and didn't say anything about that.

Possible explainations? what does V have against him?

Through the casting of Familicide V committed one of the most outright evil acts ever seen in this strip.

The spell indiscriminately murdered dozens if not hundreds of potentially innocent beings and all of that is directly on V's head. By the rules for D&D this would have shifted V's alignment strongly over into the Neutral-Evil category even if V hasn't consciously realized this yet (a fact hinted at by the Higher planes bureaucrat as Roy was in the process of being raised).

V's recent actions and comments ("His silent screams are a symphony that I cannot share") seem to confirm this shift as well.

hamishspence

2012-03-04, 06:58 AM

Through the casting of Familicide V committed one of the most outright evil acts ever seen in this strip.
Agreed.

The spell indiscriminately murdered dozens if not hundreds of potentially innocent beings and all of that is directly on V's head. By the rules for D&D this would have shifted V's alignment strongly over into the Neutral-Evil category even if V hasn't consciously realized this yet (a fact hinted at by the Higher planes bureaucrat as Roy was in the process of being raised).
Trickier. Around strip 801, The Giant posted (18/8/2011) that V was (currently) True Neutral. Maybe V was remorseful enough, and willing enough to reform, that V's alignment returned to True Neutral shortly after the Splices ended.
V is True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664984&postcount=281)

V's recent actions and comments ("His silent screams are a symphony that I cannot share") seem to confirm this shift as well.
Possible alignment slide again.

Mightymosy

2012-03-04, 06:00 PM

This is incorrect. Per SRD if your search skill is 0, you -cannot find- traps with a DC higher than 10. Thus, if the traps had a DC higher than 10, then YukYuk cannot search for them (assuming he has no ranks).

Even more likely, however, is that YukYuk's search roll didn't yield in him noticing anything, so he simply walked forward. The strip works fine as a play on the specifics of the ruleset, or as a subversion of expectations, as it does on some "Ooooh... V is being totally evil" motif, especially as that motif would be totally out of character for him. V is ambivalent and uncaring, but has rarely (if ever?) shown any inkling to be needlessly cruel, with the exceptions of Belkar, who totally brought it on himself, and Familicide.

Is it possible V is just being a sadistic censored? Yes.

Is it likely? No, other explainations make more sense

While I have played other roleplaying games, I have never played D&D itself. So the things you say about the rules may well be true.

But my problem with that is that these rules are not mentioned at all in the comic, so it makes little sense for me to believe the strip was ment to make a joke of these rules.
Second, since they aren't mentioned, for non D&D-players the joke would be nigh impossible to get otherwise, at least imo, so i think while your interpretation cannot be ruled out 100%, I consider it way less likely.

Also, where is that ooc for V? V and Haley are both characters for whom the end justifies the means, with Haley usually being less radical about it.
It is totally in character for Haley to try to divert danger from her to someone who is an enemy. Even though she is usually good, she has shown little mercy for enemies. See: Crystal.
And for V, anything that accomplishes his goals is fair game, especially if it involves him using the one and only proper tool, magic. See: Blackwing, Kubota, Yukyuk aka cat toilet, 1/4th of the Black Dragon (relatives) in this world.
Pretty much the only living persons I remember V has shown some respect for are Roy and Haley. He also seems to care for the well-being of his family, and for Durkon and Elan to an extent. Everyone else is an obstacle or a tool.
Really, treating people as things is kinda V's schtick, if you ask me.

Now, in all honesty, if you had the opportunity to get a confirmed (read: by the author) saying on the matter, and you would have to bet your own money, where would you put it asking the question which command V gave:

A) Walk up these stairs!
B) Carefully look for traps on these stairs, try not to get hurt!
C) Look for traps, try not to get hurt, but finding them is more important than your health!

Math_Mage

2012-03-04, 08:01 PM

Simply not true. V had to issue the command "Lie down face upwards with your mouth open." That's active involvement.

That doesn't affect the basic point, though: V is willing to accede to Belkar's desires w.r.t. the kobold, even issuing a mental command or two for his convenience, but he has no apparent active desire to harm the kobold. He's "just" indifferent.

His attitude is "I understand. I tire of him anyway."

So while V is perfectly willing to expose YY to harm, we still don't really have a handle on whether V would go out of his way to make YY trigger the traps rather than search for them.

Dungeonstone

2012-03-04, 08:57 PM

That doesn't affect the basic point, though: V is willing to accede to Belkar's desires w.r.t. the kobold, even issuing a mental command or two for his convenience, but he has no apparent active desire to harm the kobold. He's "just" indifferent.

His attitude is "I understand. I tire of him anyway."

Which is then contradicted by V's following statement..

"His silent screams are a symphony I cannot share".

Indicating that V is taking pleasure from listening to the silent screams from the kobold.

Taking pleasure from participating in the torture of a living creature is generally accepted as an evil act and potentially the hallmark of a sociopath.

Lord Bingo

2012-03-04, 09:57 PM

My two cents about V and YukYuk:

YukYuk is dominated, as per the spell. This is evidenced by the fact that V say (s)he has the kobolt "thoroughly dominated". Dominated individuals can only carry out simple commands such as "lie down" or "walk forward", if memory serves me correctly. "Carefully search for traps" is not going to happen and both Haley and V knows this. Haley is looking out for number one - seeing no reason to risk her own skin when the canon fodder is available, and V simply do not care one way or the other!

If anything V claims to be rational and to keep morality out of the whole thing. V has not actively chosen a moral side, but I have the feeling that is about to change since rationality seems to have let hir down.

V might not be making a moral choice per se, (s)he is still the one performing the act.

Cavenskull

2012-03-04, 10:21 PM

This is incorrect. Per SRD if your search skill is 0, you -cannot find- traps with a DC higher than 10. Thus, if the traps had a DC higher than 10, then YukYuk cannot search for them (assuming he has no ranks).
Wrong. Not being able to find traps is not the same as not being able to search for them. Here's an example of Haley not being skilled enough to find a trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html), but that lack of skill didn't prevent her from making an obvious attempt to search for a trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html).

Even more likely, however, is that YukYuk's search roll didn't yield in him noticing anything, so he simply walked forward.
I don't buy it. Even the most unskilled person should be able to poke around with a stick, toss a stone up ahead, or at least pause and look around while moving forward. I would argue that it's impossible--even for someone with a search skill of 0--to attempt a search without performing some sort of obvious search-related activity.

SavageWombat

2012-03-04, 11:21 PM

YukYuk is dominated, as per the spell. This is evidenced by the fact that V say (s)he has the kobolt "thoroughly dominated". Dominated individuals can only carry out simple commands such as "lie down" or "walk forward", if memory serves me correctly. .

Actually, Dominate Person is much more powerful. "You can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities." Fight, spellcast, use skills, whatever. Only if they make that save with the +2 for doing something against their nature does it matter.

Math_Mage

2012-03-05, 12:08 AM

The "looking out for #1 by sending YY to trigger traps rather than search for them" argument is rather illogical to begin with. Nobody with an ounce of sense would have expected YY to handle all the traps that way, and there's no reason to expect that he would trigger the most difficult-to-find ones. So the burden of searching would inevitably fall back on Haley in any case, and her job hasn't gotten any easier, just a little less time-consuming. It only makes sense to suggest YY search for traps if Haley believes YY might actually be able to search for and find them.

OmniknightJohn

2012-03-05, 02:03 AM

This is incorrect. Per SRD if your search skill is 0, you -cannot find- traps with a DC higher than 10. Thus, if the traps had a DC higher than 10, then YukYuk cannot search for them (assuming he has no ranks).

Even more likely, however, is that YukYuk's search roll didn't yield in him noticing anything, so he simply walked forward. The strip works fine as a play on the specifics of the ruleset, or as a subversion of expectations, as it does on some "Ooooh... V is being totally evil" motif, especially as that motif would be totally out of character for him. V is ambivalent and uncaring, but has rarely (if ever?) shown any inkling to be needlessly cruel, with the exceptions of Belkar, who totally brought it on himself, and Familicide.

Is it possible V is just being a sadistic censored? Yes.

Is it likely? No, other explainations make more sense

I'm just curious: where are you getting these odds that say that it is probable that your interpretation of the comic is more right than other people in this thread?

They argue that: V and Haley show an emotional attitude and response consistent with a lack of concern toward the welfare of the Kobold, and that this motivation is what drives them to use YY as walking trap bait, without remorse. This therefore conflicts with Roy's LG nature, since he does not sacrifice prisoners, no matter how evil, providing the conflict that leads to the comic's punchline.

You argue that: There is no evidence that V and Haley had any idea that the Kobold was incompetent at finding traps, and therefore, YY's abysmal failure was merely a miscalculation on their part. V in particular did not react because he tends not to show outward emotion - had he known that YY could not search, he would have said so before sending him up the Ziggurat.

(If I've grossly misinterpreted either side, please feel free to correct me)

Both arguments essentially depend on reading V's mind, and therefore, saying that your argument has more weight, or is more correct, than someone else's interpretation is essentially a fallacy, because neither side has concrete evidence.

However, in my personal opinion, V did commit an evil act, since once Roy agrees to send YY up the stairs, he has the time to note that the kobold is not actively searching for traps: during this time, V does not act in a manner that is consistent with concern for the Kobold (ie, recalling him when it is clear that he cannot effectively find traps), but instead lets him continue moving up the Ziggurat. Roy points this out, with growing annoyance, in the lead up to the comic's punchline.

Clertar

2012-03-05, 05:35 AM

A lot of people seem to be judging a tripartite morality system (good-neutral-evil), however artificial it may be, through the lense of a binary black-and-white "either it's good or it's bad" view.

Mightymosy

2012-03-05, 03:35 PM

Which is then contradicted by V's following statement..

"His silent screams are a symphony I cannot share".

Indicating that V is taking pleasure from listening to the silent screams from the kobold.

Taking pleasure from participating in the torture of a living creature is generally accepted as an evil act and potentially the hallmark of a sociopath.

I looked at that comic a bit closer, and I think it is actually Blackwing saying that thing about the silent screams.

hamishspence

2012-03-05, 03:37 PM

Doubt it. Blackwing's beak is closed in that strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html

and whenever he talks, his beak is normally shown open.

Dungeonstone

2012-03-05, 03:45 PM

I looked at that comic a bit closer, and I think it is actually Blackwing saying that thing about the silent screams.

V is the one speaking.

V's mouth is open, Blackwing's beak is not.

Mightymosy

2012-03-05, 04:10 PM

V is the one speaking.

V's mouth is open, Blackwing's beak is not.

I agree, yet the speech bubble seems to point towards Blackwing, compared to the speech bubble in the panel before.

Not sure, could be either way, really.

Dungeonstone

2012-03-05, 04:24 PM

I agree, yet the speech bubble seems to point towards Blackwing, compared to the speech bubble in the panel before.

Not sure, could be either way, really.

It's just the way Rich drew the bubble. Previously established convention would indicate that the character speaking is the one drawn with its mouth open.

FujinAkari

2012-03-05, 10:14 PM

I'm just curious: where are you getting these odds that say that it is probable that your interpretation of the comic is more right than other people in this thread?

They argue that: V and Haley show an emotional attitude and response consistent with a lack of concern toward the welfare of the Kobold, and that this motivation is what drives them to use YY as walking trap bait, without remorse. This therefore conflicts with Roy's LG nature, since he does not sacrifice prisoners, no matter how evil, providing the conflict that leads to the comic's punchline.

You argue that: There is no evidence that V and Haley had any idea that the Kobold was incompetent at finding traps, and therefore, YY's abysmal failure was merely a miscalculation on their part. V in particular did not react because he tends not to show outward emotion - had he known that YY could not search, he would have said so before sending him up the Ziggurat.

(If I've grossly misinterpreted either side, please feel free to correct me)

Both arguments essentially depend on reading V's mind, and therefore, saying that your argument has more weight, or is more correct, than someone else's interpretation is essentially a fallacy, because neither side has concrete evidence.

A good question.

Basically, the reason I consider my stance to carry more weight is because it is internally consistent with the rest of the comic.

Their argument requires several things which are very inconsistent with V's characterization:

1) V would have to intentionally send the Kobald into harm's way for no reason other than the joy of watching him suffer, an attitude V has never displayed.
2) V would have to intentionally mislead and be less-than-honest with Roy, someone he has always been rather upfront with.
3) V and Haley have to simultaneously and without any prompting both silently agree to a type of double-speak to Roy without any prior discussion, where V has always been shown to be, if anything, overly literal.

Whereas my argument requires V to be straightforward and factual, but not truly care about the Kobald's fate or be concerned for his welfare... something very consistent with his characterization thus far.

hamishspence

2012-03-06, 02:57 AM

1) V would have to intentionally send the Kobald into harm's way for no reason other than the joy of watching him suffer, an attitude V has never displayed.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html

V's tormented Belkar "for my own amusement" before- it's not that big a leap from doing that to a disliked ally, to doing it to an enemy.

2) V would have to intentionally mislead and be less-than-honest with Roy, someone he has always been rather upfront with.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

It's clear here that V's being less than honest about "tampering with the fundamental forces of nature when bored".

Mightymosy

2012-03-06, 06:03 PM

A good question.

Basically, the reason I consider my stance to carry more weight is because it is internally consistent with the rest of the comic.

Their argument requires several things which are very inconsistent with V's characterization:

1) V would have to intentionally send the Kobald into harm's way for no reason other than the joy of watching him suffer, an attitude V has never displayed.
2) V would have to intentionally mislead and be less-than-honest with Roy, someone he has always been rather upfront with.
3) V and Haley have to simultaneously and without any prompting both silently agree to a type of double-speak to Roy without any prior discussion, where V has always been shown to be, if anything, overly literal.

Whereas my argument requires V to be straightforward and factual, but not truly care about the Kobald's fate or be concerned for his welfare... something very consistent with his characterization thus far.

As far as i understand you, you question our interpretation of V having sadistic tendencies?

I agree that he is not the most sadistic person ever, but it is not at all out of his attitude, especially not concerning enemies.

See 399 for an example.

As for V lying to Roy, i concur that it is not a common trait V shows. I even wrote above that Roy seems to be one of the few persons he constantly shows respect for.
That being said, there are precedents for such behavior. For example, 323, in which V and Belkar bluntly lie to Roy and have an agreement behind his back.

For Haley's and V's connection: for me, they appeared to bond over the same philosophy of pragmatism. In this cas it's hurt the kobold instead of us, because after all he is an enemy. With Roy, V connects due to his Intelligence.

silvadel

2012-03-06, 06:20 PM

I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

Gandariel

2012-03-06, 06:31 PM

Another theory, don't know if it has been proposed:

V has objectives, and hates wasting time that could be spent reaching them.

So situation one: Belkar wants his cat to poop on a kobold:

V thinks: "We want to reach the others. Discussing with belkar would be a waste of time, and i don't really care about that kobold."

Situation two: traps need to be set off:
V thinks: "The kobold might be able to find some if he took 20, but it would take 20 times as long and we wouldn't even be sure it worked.
Waste of time, i'd better have him set them off himself."

This is a pretty True Neutral thing, AND fits with V's style.

hamishspence

2012-03-06, 06:36 PM

This is a pretty True Neutral thing, AND fits with V's style.

one form of Evil in PHB "has no compassion for others, and will harm them if convenient"

This is basically what V's doing in both the examples- even by your account- making Yuk-yuk lie down (because it keeps Belkar happy) and making him set off traps (because it's more convenient than making him search).

Aquillion

2012-03-06, 06:45 PM

This is basically what V's doing in both the examples- even by your account- making Yuk-yuk lie down (because it keeps Belkar happy) and making him set off traps (because it's more convenient than making him search).I don't think there's any evidence that V deliberately made him set off the traps. The explanation V gave to Roy was about how a 'general purpose' command would make Yuk-Yuk search to the best of his ability; I don't think V would have deceived Roy (even by omission) over something like that -- V respects Roy and, more than that, has no real reason to deceive Roy over something comparatively trivial.

(We've also seen no real indication that V is as anxious to do things as quickly as possible as some people in this thread are assuming. Until V realized where all the bodies were from, in fact, V's seems pretty laid-back recently.)

Gandariel

2012-03-07, 03:09 AM

(We've also seen no real indication that V is as anxious to do things as quickly as possible as some people in this thread are assuming.

I am assuming that because it's how V solves evry problem.

the scene before the AC battle?
Kubota?
leaving the boat for a less time-consuming place?
Actually, the whole don't split the party book?

Dungeonstone

2012-03-07, 03:21 AM

A good question.

Basically, the reason I consider my stance to carry more weight is because it is internally consistent with the rest of the comic.

Their argument requires several things which are very inconsistent with V's characterization:

1) V would have to intentionally send the Kobald into harm's way for no reason other than the joy of watching him suffer, an attitude V has never displayed.
2) V would have to intentionally mislead and be less-than-honest with Roy, someone he has always been rather upfront with.
3) V and Haley have to simultaneously and without any prompting both silently agree to a type of double-speak to Roy without any prior discussion, where V has always been shown to be, if anything, overly literal.

Whereas my argument requires V to be straightforward and factual, but not truly care about the Kobald's fate or be concerned for his welfare... something very consistent with his characterization thus far.

Problem here is that V is clearly misleading Roy regarding the kobold and trap detection.

If V had in fact instructed him to, and I quote..

Search for traps to the best of his ability Then the kobold (even if unskilled in trap detection) would have put more effort into the endeavor than to simply walk up the stairs, ie. taking 20 every ten feet; which would in fact have been "to the best of his ability".

That he simply walks up the stairs tells us that V gave him some other instruction than what was originally described to Roy.

Thus, V lied to Roy.

Cavelcade

2012-03-07, 05:16 AM

Problem here is that V is clearly misleading Roy regarding the kobold and trap detection.

If V had in fact instructed him to, and I quote..

Search for traps to the best of his ability Then the kobold (even if unskilled in trap detection) would have put more effort into the endeavor than to simply walk up the stairs, ie. taking 20 every ten feet; which would in fact have been "to the best of his ability".

That he simply walks up the stairs tells us that V gave him some other instruction than what was originally described to Roy.

Thus, V lied to Roy.

Not necessarily. If he has no ranks in Search (which in OotSverse isn't unbelievable) then he might reason that he wouldn't be able to find well hidden traps.

Thus 'the best he of his ability' is to walk straight up the stairs, as that way he is certain to find any and all traps.

V's still wrong to do it but not for that reason, I think.

Aquillion

2012-03-07, 01:44 PM

I am assuming that because it's how V solves evry problem.

the scene before the AC battle?
Kubota?
leaving the boat for a less time-consuming place?
Actually, the whole don't split the party book?Yes. But I think the point is supposed to be that V has learned a lesson from that -- V hasn't really done much of that since then.

Dungeonstone

2012-03-07, 03:43 PM

Cavenskull

2012-03-07, 04:17 PM

Not necessarily. If he has no ranks in Search (which in OotSverse isn't unbelievable) then he might reason that he wouldn't be able to find well hidden traps.

Thus 'the best he of his ability' is to walk straight up the stairs, as that way he is certain to find any and all traps.

V's still wrong to do it but not for that reason, I think.
Dungeonstone already made several good points, but another one I'll add is what if the first trap killed Yukyuk outright? It's hard to find all the traps if the first one kills you. There's also the possibility of traps that aren't fatal, but send you somewhere else. One example of this is the trap that Vaarsuvius set off. If the first trap is a trapdoor that drops the victim into a prison cell, that person is definitely not going to be able to find other traps.

And something that really annoys me about the "walking up the stairs is the best way to find all the traps" argument is that it seems to forget that Yukyuk would probably end up triggering traps by accident while searching for them. Wouldn't it be far better to have Yukyuk find some traps and accidentally trigger the remainder than it is to have him find no traps at all but set them all off deliberately? I mean, if Yukyuk has to search the whole staircase, it seems pretty likely that he's going to accidentally trigger whatever traps he doesn't find first, anyway. And doing it that way does theoretically lessen the odds that Yukyuk will be killed before all the traps are located.

Math_Mage

2012-03-07, 04:26 PM

But at the same time, and by the same token, sending YY to trigger the traps is an ineffective way to disarm the stairs. So for the same reason it doesn't make sense for mind-controlled YY to decide on triggering the traps as the best way to search for them, it doesn't make sense for V/Haley to decide on sending YY to trigger the traps as the best way to avoid having Haley search.

Mightymosy

2012-03-07, 06:32 PM

Math_Mage

2012-03-07, 06:45 PM

It IS, however, a pretty effective way to satisfy their sadistic joy.

MIGHT make sense for V. Definitely DOESN'T make sense for Haley.

Kish

2012-03-07, 06:50 PM

I don't think Haley is experiencing "sadistic joy," no. (But who knows? Maybe she's secretly a cat-lover...)

However, I don't think "that's not an efficient way to deal with the traps" holds water. If there had been a dozen instant-death traps which Yukyuk could only trigger a single one of on the stairs, that would still have meant Haley only had to deal with 11 of them, for no price Haley would consider worth mentioning. Unless you have a proposal for a better way Haley could have dealt with the traps without risking searching for them herself, which is incompatible with having used Yukyuk as trap fodder?

Or do you mean, Haley shouldn't have been in favor of Yukyuk just running up the stairs rather than actually bothering to look? I don't believe Haley thought there was a snowball's chance in the Nine Hells that Yukyuk could find anything with all his effort that she couldn't find with her eyes shut. She knows he's Belkar's mirror: A warrior who neglects all his non-combat-related abilities, not a skill-monkey. And she has a lot of points in Disable Device and Search, although her Search is apparently not maxed; she was a trapfinder primarily right up until they left the Dungeon of Dorukan.