V and Belkar on kickstart...

[B. Dandelion]

As a preface... this is kinda loony. Not to mention obsessive. But I thought, hey why not? We've had crazier topics.

So you may have noticed that on the kickstarter front page (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive), everyone in line to kick Belkar is recognizably a character he killed on-panel. In the latest update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts) the trend is continued... until the last character in the line, Vaarsuvius.

It should be noted that in a previous (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts/168418) update, V revealed that she had already paid for several kicks before. And Haley offered her a freebie if V gave her a lift, so V is likely collecting on that.

I could easily see this meaning nothing. It's great attention to detail -- there's even a Origin character in line! -- but it seems kinda far-fetched that an Easter Egg would also contain foreshadowing?

However, then I remembered Belkar's prophecy.

No doubt you recall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). Belkar asked if he would get to "cause the death of" Roy, Vaarsuvius, Miko, Miko's horse, or the Oracle himself. The answer he was given was "yes."

So then later when Haley, Belkar and Celia went back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) to the Oracle, Belkar protested his prophecy hadn't come true. The Oracle begged to differ. Belkar had "caused the death of" Roy. He could also be said to have played a part in Miko's fall and demise, which trapped Windstriker's spirit in the afterlife.

He then went on, "as for the elf--" before being cut off, strongly implying there was some rationale to tie Vaarsuvius to Belkar's prophecy.

Of course Belkar overruled all of the Oracle's arguments by directly killing the Oracle, so his prophecy has already come true. But. That doesn't change the fact that there was some bit of logic the Oracle was planning to use to tie Vaarsuvius to Belkar's prophecy. Probably a very shaky, tenuous connection, and quite possibly playing fast and loose with terms, but a connection. And we don't know what it was.

So, back to Kickstart: Completely innocuous, or a subtle reminder?

[fergo]

It may not be decisive. Maybe Rich just wanted to populate the list with characters that'd have a reason to hold a grudge against Belkar, and those he killed were the obvious choices.

I mean, he kills a lot of people. I can't really think of many characters that have a grudge against him and are still alive, which is saying something.

That said...

I agree that it may be indicative of V. dying, and I'm one of those that believes that he must have something to do with V.'s death. The Oracle wouldn't have even mentioned V. otherwise.

Again, though, I wouldn't say that it was decisive. :smallconfused:

[ThePhantasm]

As a preface... this is kinda loony. Not to mention obsessive.

Yes. Yes. :smalltongue:


It should be noted that in a previous (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts/168418) update, V revealed that she had already paid for several kicks before. And Haley offered her a freebie if V gave her a lift, so V is likely collecting on that.

Yes.


I could easily see this meaning nothing.

Yes.


It's great attention to detail -- there's even a Origin character in line! -- but it seems kinda far-fetched that an Easter Egg would also contain foreshadowing?

Yes, very.


However, then I remembered Belkar's prophecy.

No doubt you recall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). Belkar asked if he would get to "cause the death of" Roy, Vaarsuvius, Miko, Miko's horse, or the Oracle himself. The answer he was given was "yes."

No, he asked if he would cause the death of one or more of the following. Which means that if he kills the Oracle and only the Oracle out of that list, the prophecy has been fulfilled.


So then later when Haley, Belkar and Celia went back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) to the Oracle, Belkar protested his prophecy hadn't come true. The Oracle begged to differ. Belkar had "caused the death of" Roy. He could also be said to have played a part in Miko's fall and demise, which trapped Windstriker's spirit in the afterlife.

But even the Oracle, not to mention all the characters standing nearby, agreed that those explanations were quite a stretch. He was trying to keep Belkar from fulfilling the prophecy by killing him.


He then went on, "as for the elf--" before being cut off, strongly implying there was some rationale to tie Vaarsuvius to Belkar's prophecy.

No, nothing is implied there beyond what people want to be implied. He could have been about to say anything about the elf. Given how stretched his previous "explanations" were, it literally could have been anything, including "well, I can't think up one for the elf."


Of course Belkar overruled all of the Oracle's arguments by directly killing the Oracle, so his prophecy has already come true.

Yes.


Probably a very shaky, tenuous connection, and quite possibly playing fast and loose with terms, but a connection. And we don't know what it was.

Wrong. We don't know that there was a connection. For all we know V won't due during the story.


So, back to Kickstart: Completely innocuous, or a subtle reminder?

Completely innocuous.

[B. Dandelion]

Yes. Yes. :smalltongue:

I know, I know. I just get exasperated when I say something I know perfectly well is a shot in the dark and people come on all YOU SO CRAZY. It doesn't matter if I say first, or acknowledge it in the middle, or whatever.


No, he asked if he would cause the death of one or more of the following. Which means that if he kills the Oracle and only the Oracle out of that list, the prophecy has been fulfilled.

I don't see how challenging the specificity of that line would help your case even if you were right, which you are not. He does not say "one or more", he asks if it's "any one of the following". The wording "one or more," which is not used (jeez, and I gave you the link and everything!), would specifically raise the option that he got to "cause the death of" several people on the list, but "any of the following" does not preclude that option.

He would have had to word the question very awkwardly indeed in order to wind up with an answer that would mean "you cause the death of one person on that list and only that person" with no room for doubt. He had no reason to phrase it that way, and didn't.


But even the Oracle, not to mention all the characters standing nearby, agreed that those explanations were quite a stretch. He was trying to keep Belkar from fulfilling the prophecy by killing him.

Yes, I know. I also know (from the DSTP commentary) that Rich specifically wrote Belkar giving Roy the ring of jumping so that people would speculate it fulfilled the prophecy. They were not straightforward interpretations, but they were not totally out of the realm of plausibility.


No, nothing is implied there beyond what people want to be implied. He could have been about to say anything about the elf. Given how stretched his previous "explanations" were, it literally could have been anything, including "well, I can't think up one for the elf."

Sure, it's possible it could have been "okay I got nothing." But there isn't any particular reason to presume that must have been what he was leading to. If he were to continue the sequence, it would have been some tenuous connection from Belkar to Vaarsuvius, possibly twisting the words "death" and almost certainly stretching "cause".


Wrong. We don't know that there was a connection. For all we know V won't due during the story.

We don't know that there was a connection.

We could certainly infer there was something the Oracle thought he could spin as a connection. Given that he played fast and loose with the meaning of the word "death" in Windstriker's case, it doesn't necessarily imply V's demise either.


Completely innocuous.

I am sorry you did not enjoy the theory.

[carpentron]

Hilarious moment, though I doubt it means anything other than what it looks like (V enjoys kicking belkar). You can totally see it coming in the 2nd to last update as well, just in the way V is smiling

[ThePhantasm]

I don't see how challenging the specificity of that line would help your case even if you were right, which you are not. He does not say "one or more", he asks if it's "any one of the following". The wording "one or more," which is not used (jeez, and I gave you the link and everything!), would specifically raise the option that he got to "cause the death of" several people on the list, but "any of the following" does not preclude that option.

Eh, I stand corrected. The wording doesn't matter, and wasn't the point of that part of my comment really. My point is simply that so long as Belkar kills one of the people on the list, the prophecy is fulfilled, and so the possibility of any further future fulfillment (i.e. killing V) is highly uncertain.


He would have had to word the question very awkwardly indeed in order to wind up with an answer that would mean "you cause the death of one person on that list and only that person" with no room for doubt. He had no reason to phrase it that way, and didn't.

I agree he would have no reason to word it that way. This seems tangential to the point, though...


Yes, I know. I also know (from the DSTP commentary) that Rich specifically wrote Belkar giving Roy the ring of jumping so that people would speculate it fulfilled the prophecy. They were not straightforward interpretations, but they were not totally out of the realm of plausibility.

The thing with Roy was a stretch, but it was less of a stretch than the other "explanations." Miko? Miko's horse? Come on. When you stretch things that far anything is in the realm of plausibility.


Sure, it's possible it could have been "okay I got nothing." But there isn't any particular reason to presume that must have been what he was leading to. If he were to continue the sequence, it would have been some tenuous connection from Belkar to Vaarsuvius, possibly twisting the words "death" and almost certainly stretching "cause".

Great, so you agree with me that there's no way of knowing what he was about to say. It could have gone either way.


We could certainly infer there was something the Oracle thought he could spin as a connection. Given that he played fast and loose with the meaning of the word "death" in Windstriker's case, it doesn't necessarily imply V's demise either.

When you make the prophecy that ambiguous, one wonders if there's any value to such "foreshadowing" at all.


I am sorry you did not enjoy the theory.

I didn't say I didn't enjoy it.

[Morgath]

Going to have to go for subtle reminder.
Belkar has to die and it will be soon.

Pretty sure this much foreshadowing on top of the prophecies is to build up the tension for the 3? way encounter at the gate by keeping it forefront in the minds.

Although saying that, I suspect that he may contribute to V's death at the final gate. Someone has to combat the IFCC, and unless they have to control him in person, they are most likely to be hiding in the lower planes. Guess whos going to be in the vicinity?

[Uchiha Richard]

I can hypothesize any number of ways Belkar might be responsible for the eventual death of V. It could contribute to why he wouldn't be raised either. Yeah, it could just be coincidence. Then again, Rich could be a genius author who managed to fit an easter egg into these graphs, even if it isn't what's currently being guessed. Besides, speculation is fun... Tearing down speculation, not so much.

[B. Dandelion]

Eh, I stand corrected. The wording doesn't matter, and wasn't the point of that part of my comment really. My point is simply that so long as Belkar kills one of the people on the list, the prophecy is fulfilled, and so the possibility of any further future fulfillment (i.e. killing V) is highly uncertain.

Yes, agreed. Actually, from the way I've been looking at it, the theory isn't trying to rest on "his prophecy might not be fulfilled all the way yet." I'm trying to draw a distinction between "the actual terms of the prophecy" and "what the Oracle thought he could BS his way into being about the prophecy". The one has been fulfilled. It's the other that intrigues me -- where, if at all, he was going with that.



The thing with Roy was a stretch, but it was less of a stretch than the other "explanations." Miko? Miko's horse? Come on. When you stretch things that far anything is in the realm of plausibility.

It would be pretty difficult to narrow down the scope of where "as for the elf" might have led save some presumable badness that could possibly be worded as "death" happening to Vaarsuvius, linked directly or indirectly to Belkar's actions.


Great, so you agree with me that there's no way of knowing what he was about to say. It could have gone either way.

Yes, I do.

"Loony theory" to me means, "has possible tenuous evidence which could be explained away in some other plausible fashion -- but cannot be definitively disproven."


When you make the prophecy that ambiguous, one wonders if there's any value to such "foreshadowing" at all.

I can see your point, actually.

The theory tends to lie dormant in my mind until something comes up where I could possibly see Belkar's actions indirectly causing harm to V. Recently, it's been through Yukyuk, who would have reason to want to harm Vaarsuvius as an indirect result of Belkar, as V subjected Yukyuk to being used as a litterbox primarily for Belkar's benefit.

I may also start thinking it more relevant if the Oracle comes back and plays a more active role in the overall plot. That could wind up being the sort of thing that looks more significant after the fact.


I didn't say I didn't enjoy it.

Okay...:smallsmile:

I am often terrible at reading people's tenor through the computer. I also tend to often be overly dry myself.

[fwiffo]

Ha! You are not really that completely obsessive till you identify all the people in line waiting to kick Belkar, link every one of them with the corresponding strip number, and then conduct statistical analysis on whether the proportion of those people that ended up dead due to Belkar is significant enough to infer the fate of Vaarsuvius ending up same way.

[Othniel Edden]

It could be a foreshadowing Easter Egg. It is a solid literay device to use.

[ThePhantasm]

The theory tends to lie dormant in my mind until something comes up where I could possibly see Belkar's actions indirectly causing harm to V. Recently, it's been through Yukyuk, who would have reason to want to harm Vaarsuvius as an indirect result of Belkar, as V subjected Yukyuk to being used as a litterbox primarily for Belkar's benefit.

I may also start thinking it more relevant if the Oracle comes back and plays a more active role in the overall plot. That could wind up being the sort of thing that looks more significant after the fact.

Well, I'm quite partial myself to the theory that an IFCC possessed V kills Belkar, which would be quite dramatic. That's something I'd like to see. And I'd agree that it is quite possible Belkar may somehow be a cause of V's death (if V dies).

But as far as a kickstarter chart goes, I don't think we are meant to draw any conclusions from it. Like the OOTS wall poster and other extra-comic material, I don't think it contains any hints or foreshadowing one way or another. Also, for the kickstarter-chart-theory to make sense, Belkar would have to outright kill V directly. Afterall, the lineup of kickers as far as I can recall (sans V) is a lineup of people Belkar has directly killed, not "caused the death of" according to any stretchy Oracle-esque explanation.


Okay...:smallsmile:

I am often terrible at reading people's tenor through the computer. I also tend to often be overly dry myself.

No worries. :smallwink:

[Morgan Wick]

I'm trying to draw a distinction between "the actual terms of the prophecy" and "what the Oracle thought he could BS his way into being about the prophecy".

Then you didn't do a very good job of it by prefacing the whole thing by saying "then I remembered Belkar's prophecy" (which people are going to take to mean the former).

[Cavenskull]

Yes, agreed. Actually, from the way I've been looking at it, the theory isn't trying to rest on "his prophecy might not be fulfilled all the way yet." I'm trying to draw a distinction between "the actual terms of the prophecy" and "what the Oracle thought he could BS his way into being about the prophecy". The one has been fulfilled. It's the other that intrigues me -- where, if at all, he was going with that...

...The theory tends to lie dormant in my mind until something comes up where I could possibly see Belkar's actions indirectly causing harm to V. Recently, it's been through Yukyuk, who would have reason to want to harm Vaarsuvius as an indirect result of Belkar, as V subjected Yukyuk to being used as a litterbox primarily for Belkar's benefit.

I may also start thinking it more relevant if the Oracle comes back and plays a more active role in the overall plot. That could wind up being the sort of thing that looks more significant after the fact.
I think you're looking in the wrong direction. Remember, the whole point of the Oracle's ridiculous explanations was to try to justify how Belkar's prophecy had ALREADY been fulfilled. This means that whatever Belkar might have done to "cause" the "death" of Vaarsuvius would have to have happened prior to Belkar's most recent visit to the Oracle.

While it's not absolutely out of the question that Belkar might cause the death of Vaarsuvius at some future point in the comic, it could not possibly have anything to do with what the Oracle was going to tell Belkar, because the Oracle's flimsy interpretations were intended to explain past events--not future events. If Belkar were to bury his daggers in Vaarsuvius' brain in the very next strip, it's still way too late to justify the Oracle's claim that Belkar's prophecy had already been fulfilled, because from the perspective of strip 567, the murder will still be almost a year in the future. And if the Oracle were going to try to say, "Your prophecy has already been fulfilled--in the future!" he might as well have used that explanation first, since telling Belkar that he still has one or more guaranteed kills coming would probably have been more palatable to Belker than trying to feed him convoluted theories to justify the prophesy having already come true.

[Petey7]

Then you didn't do a very good job of it by prefacing the whole thing by saying "then I remembered Belkar's prophecy" (which people are going to take to mean the former).

Not to sound rude, but reading four more sentences would make it very clear the she meant the latter.

There is a decent argument for both sides. The Giant himself has stated that there are things in the comic that have no more meaning than what is at the face value. V's actions in the Kickstarter scenes could just be a continuation of hir negative reinforcement policy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html). Although, I like to think that something Belkar did before strip 567 (possibly even "the event") will be the connection to hir death.

[martianmister]

Wait, did he kill Tarquin's soldier? :smallconfused:

[ThePhantasm]

Wait, did he kill Tarquin's soldier? :smallconfused:

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)

..............

[hoff]

In my opinion the deaths of the oots cast just mean a shift to the celestial sea setting. The dead guys can still adventure with the leaving ones if they are in the celestial sea right? Or maybe everyone will die and they will have to chit-chat with the gods.

[ThePhantasm]

In my opinion the deaths of the oots cast just mean a shift to the celestial sea setting. The dead guys can still adventure with the leaving ones if they are in the celestial sea right? Or maybe everyone will die and they will have to chit-chat with the gods.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean here. Who are the "leaving ones"? What do you mean the "dead guys" can still adventure? And what does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

[Dark Elf Bard]

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html)

..............

Is there any evedince that he died?

[ThePhantasm]

Is there any evedince that he died?

I can't imagine him not dying, since it was "pulled out the other end" (see next strip). Could someone survive that?

[Misery Esquire]

And even if that specific guard survived... somehow... These (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html) guards, did not.

[Morgan Wick]

I think you're looking in the wrong direction. Remember, the whole point of the Oracle's ridiculous explanations was to try to justify how Belkar's prophecy had ALREADY been fulfilled. This means that whatever Belkar might have done to "cause" the "death" of Vaarsuvius would have to have happened prior to Belkar's most recent visit to the Oracle.

While it's not absolutely out of the question that Belkar might cause the death of Vaarsuvius at some future point in the comic, it could not possibly have anything to do with what the Oracle was going to tell Belkar, because the Oracle's flimsy interpretations were intended to explain past events--not future events.

The point is that Belkar is pissed that his prediction didn't come true yet. The Oracle can defend himself with whatever events, past and future, can be construed as the prediction coming true, thus preserving his credibility. Remember, the memory charm means they won't remember whatever he tells them anyway.


Not to sound rude, but reading four more sentences would make it very clear the she meant the latter.

My reaction upon reading the sentence I quoted (before reading anything more): "That's an odd way to refer to 'As for the elf-'. That's not 'Belkar's prophecy', that's what the Oracle said while trying to backpedal his way out of Belkar's prophecy."

[Cavenskull]

The point is that Belkar is pissed that his prediction didn't come true yet. The Oracle can defend himself with whatever events, past and future, can be construed as the prediction coming true, thus preserving his credibility. Remember, the memory charm means they won't remember whatever he tells them anyway.

If the Oracle defends himself with future events, that's going to directly contradict his claim that Belkar's prophecy had already been fulfilled. It would be one thing for the Oracle to tell Belkar that his prophesy will still be fulfilled at some point in the future, but the Oracle was trying to tell Belkar that his prophecy had already been fulfilled. Claiming that Belkar had already caused the death of Vaarsuvius is a pretty tough sell, since not only was Vaarsuvius alive that whole time, nothing had happened to suggest even the slightest hint of a metaphorical death--let alone one somehow caused by Belkar.

Even if we take the most forgiving view possible on this and assume that Belkar did something prior to strip 567 that would eventually "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius at some point after that strip, it would still have to have happened sometime between strip 331 (when the prophesy was announced) and strip 424 (the last time Belkar and Vaarsuvius were seen together). Belkar's actions during that time don't seem to have any real impact on Vaarsuvius at all.

I think it's also worth pointing out that since the explanations for Roy, Miko, or Windstriker didn't work, an explanation for Vaarsuvius was the Oracle's last chance to avoid being murdered by Belkar. Considering that each explanation was less credible than the last, and considering that the explanation for Windstriker already required redefining the meaning of death, I think it's a pretty safe bet that whatever explanation the Oracle had in mind for Vaarsuvius' "death" would be essentially meaningless.

Even the Oracle admitted to not buying his own theories.

[Ravian]

Ah hah, but perhaps Belkar has already set the dominos that will cause the death of V into motion!

Think of it like this:
Remember when Belkar stopped the criminal from killing Hinjo, with the long arrow sequence? The one that would have killed V if not for the shield? (and other factors for the other people it nearly killed) Well perhaps that arrow caused enough distraction that it cut off V's train of thought that may have been able to save the soldiers from the Hobbos and Death Knight. This loss of a plan resulted in V becoming obssessed with the belief that hir magic failed hir. This led to V secluding hirself in the ship trying to find some way to find Haley, and eventually led to hir abandoning Elan and Durkon, then leading to being attacked by the Ancient Black dragon alone. This then led to V selling hir soul to the IFCC, which will somehow in the future cause hir death, through a series of circumstances not yet determined by how much we know at present about the comic.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
...
And you thought the 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the freemason and Illuminati plots were far-fetched... :smallamused:

Although at least this one doesn't use letters of the name's of involved characters, comic strip numbers and binary code.

[fergo]

Ah hah, but perhaps Belkar has already set the dominos that will cause the death of V into motion!

Think of it like this:
Remember when Belkar stopped the criminal from killing Hinjo, with the long arrow sequence? The one that would have killed V if not for the shield? (and other factors for the other people it nearly killed) Well perhaps that arrow caused enough distraction that it cut off V's train of thought that may have been able to save the soldiers from the Hobbos and Death Knight. This loss of a plan resulted in V becoming obssessed with the belief that hir magic failed hir. This led to V secluding hirself in the ship trying to find some way to find Haley, and eventually led to hir abandoning Elan and Durkon, then leading to being attacked by the Ancient Black dragon alone. This then led to V selling hir soul to the IFCC, which will somehow in the future cause hir death, through a series of circumstances not yet determined by how much we know at present about the comic.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
...
And you thought the 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the freemason and Illuminati plots were far-fetched... :smallamused:

Although at least this one doesn't use letters of the name's of involved characters, comic strip numbers and binary code.

I knew someone would do it :smallbiggrin:. Fan-bloody-tastic.

[Earl William]

And you thought the 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the freemason and Illuminati plots were far-fetched... :smallamused:


Bring in Haley's mother, her 20 long lost sisters (identifiable by their ponytails), tGwotH, Hilgya and Dourkan's lovechild and the salad dressing elemental's secret affair with Prince Oozalot, and then you're there.:smallbiggrin: