Magic Items That Make Spells Fizzle

[Deth Muncher]

Hey all - I've got a player who seems to be obsessed with being a Blaster Caster, and I need to teach him that this isn't always the viable option. On a related note, the BBEG (and several subordinates of his) of this game is/are casters, and so it would make sense for them to be prepared against people casting spells at them. What are some magic items that either counter spells, grant Spell Turning, or just neutralize spells of a certain type altogether? Spell Resistance can also help this, but I'm looking for other ways.

Also, one related question: A Ring of Counterspelling. If someone casts Dispel Magic into it, can it then, effectively, counter any spell cast at the wearer? Or will it only counter a Dispel Magic?

[Ernir]

Hey all - I've got a player who seems to be obsessed with being a Blaster Caster, and I need to teach him that this isn't always the viable option. On a related note, the BBEG (and several subordinates of his) of this game is/are casters, and so it would make sense for them to be prepared against people casting spells at them. What are some magic items that either counter spells, grant Spell Turning, or just neutralize spells of a certain type altogether? Spell Resistance can also help this, but I'm looking for other ways.
There aren't many powerful items that deal directly with countering spells. Gaining immunity to the spells' effects is the more usual method.

The Ring of Spell-battle (Magic Item Compendium) is a major exception. As is stuff like the Bulwark of Antimagic (Draconomicon).

Also, even though doing it with just items is hard, there are caster builds that can make other peoples' spellcasting a chore. Would that work?

And finally, why on earth do you need to "show him" that blasters aren't always the bestest thing ever? =/

Also, one related question: A Ring of Counterspelling. If someone casts Dispel Magic into it, can it then, effectively, counter any spell cast at the wearer? Or will it only counter a Dispel Magic?
See:

should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered
Only works for Dispel Magic, no other spell.

[Deth Muncher]

There aren't many powerful items that deal directly with countering spells. Gaining immunity to the spells' effects is the more usual method.

The Ring of Spell-battle (Magic Item Compendium) is a major exception. As is stuff like the Bulwark of Antimagic (Draconomicon).

Also, even though doing it with just items is hard, there are caster builds that can make other peoples' spellcasting a chore. Would that work?

And finally, why on earth do you need to "show him" that blasters aren't always the bestest thing ever? =/

Only works for Dispel Magic, no other spell.

In reverse order:
Well darn on the Counterspell ring.

Normally, I wouldn't even consider doing something like this, but this guy is effectively trying to break his character. To the point that he's like "Oh, uh, yeah. Like, he's like...interested in magic and stuff?" to justify all of his blasty spells. He's trying to make this a Combat Sim, to the point where he's been trying to figure out what feats and spells to use PURELY - and I know this because I spoke with him - because he wants the highest damage per round. No respect for a story, just "I wanna have the biggest numbers so my numbers can out number the other guys numbers so I can be the numbersiest numberer that ever numbered." I can almost guarantee if every game we just did dungeon crawls, he wouldn't even notice. So I need to remind him that sometimes, you use nonviolent methods to win encounters. His actions are making me upset as the DM, and one guy has already told me he doesn't like this guys actions either.

Unfortunately, an Anti-Caster-Caster build isn't *exactly* an option, though I can and should include a few minions around who could do that.

I'll look at those items after I get out of class.

Also, fair point - getting resistant to fire damage is easier than trying to resist a Fireball.

[Alefiend]

Brooch of shielding will stop magic missiles cold (up to 101 HP worth, anyway).

Scarab of protection gives SR 20 (not great, but handy) and absorbs up to 12 energy drain/death effect/negative energy attacks.

Also, a blaster is only as good as his/her initiative. Enemy combatants with high dex and improved initiative should be able to do unto the blaster before the blaster does unto them.

[Mustard]

Well, if it's not always a viable option, it should naturally present itself as such. But if you want to drive the point home, here are some ideas. I don't know what he's using, and I'm not entirely well-versed in all the available spells (I know a little D&D 3.5, but mostly PF), but hopefully these ideas are at least somewhat helpful.


Incorporeal undead - blasting should feel suboptimal when it's a 50/50 chance (and magic missile really won't cut it)
Up-close encounters - can't do a huge area blast if your allies are in the blast radius (well, hopefully, at any rate)
Creatures with energy resistance, immunity, or SR - you've mentioned this, but I wouldn't give up on it
Wider enemy formations, attack from front and back - blasting one enemy at a time won't feel very effective
Enemies with high reflex saves and evasion
Use good tactical spells effectively against the party to demonstrate how good they are (just hopefully not too harsh if the lesson is to be directed against 1 player)


Granted, if he's solved all of these problems, then they are useless suggestions... but hopefully he hasn't, and I didn't just waste our time!

[Myou]

This isn't a problem that you can fix with an in-game response. The problem here isn't that your player thinks blaster wizards are great, the problem is that your player doesn't care about the story you and the other players are involved in creating.

You need to discuss this problem with him. Explain why he's making you unhappy. Tell him that you don't want the game to just be about numbers and combat.

It may be that he isn't right for your game - or your game isn't right for him - in which case it's better than you all agree now on him bowing out, with everyone staying friends. He can find a game that suits him, you can enjoy your roleplaying and no-one has to be upset.

[Toliudar]

Tagging him with save or sucks will do more to show him the validity of other magic forms than just making someone bounce one of his uber-attacks. If he's focusing so much on DPS, then odds are good that he's leaving himself vulnerable to, well, everything else.

Also, by pursuing alternate offensive strategies, you avoid dropping powerful defensive items into the PC's lap afterward.

[Kane0]

Ooh, if you dont mind me cross-advertising, i recently made a spell that could help you:

Heat Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12748030&postcount=1)

If you want to try it out and let me know how it fares, please feel free!

[Tr011]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/238.jpg
Seriously: Ring of Counterspells, Ring of Spell-Battle both got mentioned. Then add the Energy Immunity enchantment from MiC and an eternal wand (MiC) with Energy Aegis (put the wand into an item with Wand Chamber from DS and put a least Return Crystal from MiC into it, a MW dagger with that costs 702 gp+wand costs). Btw, weapons are useful for casters anyway, get Spellblade enchantment for 6k that makes you immune vs. one spell chosen when the weapon is enchanted. Very good against Dispel and Dimensional Anchor.

[Diarmuid]

Some simple Globe of Invulnerability or Minor Globe spells would go along way for some enemy casters to give him a hard time.

[Tr011]

Some simple Globe of Invulnerability or Minor Globe spells would go along way for some enemy casters to give him a hard time.

Nice idea. To top it use:
Mystic Shield from Empires of Shade. It's pure gold. Coupled with Ghostform you are kind of immortal for CL rounds.

[pwykersotz]

I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread on the PROPER way of doing things, but if magic neutralization is what you want, the Scepter of Sorcerer-Kings is a great artifact. Especially against a blaster Wizard.

Maybe a bad idea if you like your world the way it is, but it will do the job.

[Telok]

Stinking Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stinkingCloud.htm)

But the best shutdown method I know of for a BBEG to use is a single, first level wizard with a wand of Magic Missile. Have him stand way off in left field and just ready actions to zap anyone who casts spells.

If you just want to screw over a caster scrolls of Antimagic Field and a Rod of Absorption will do the trick.

[Telonius]

This isn't a problem that you can fix with an in-game response. The problem here isn't that your player thinks blaster wizards are great, the problem is that your player doesn't care about the story you and the other players are involved in creating.

You need to discuss this problem with him. Explain why he's making you unhappy. Tell him that you don't want the game to just be about numbers and combat.

It may be that he isn't right for your game - or your game isn't right for him - in which case it's better than you all agree now on him bowing out, with everyone staying friends. He can find a game that suits him, you can enjoy your roleplaying and no-one has to be upset.

I'll second this. Trying to "prove" to him in-game that blasting is sub-optimal is just going to lead to an arms race. And in that game, the only winning move is not to play. Or, he's going to figure out that blasting is sub-optimal, and you'll have a Batman wizard on your hands.

[TuggyNE]

But the best shutdown method I know of for a BBEG to use is a single, first level wizard with a wand of Magic Missile. Have him stand way off in left field and just ready actions to zap anyone who casts spells.

... magic missile? Seriously? Two problems with that: first, it doesn't do enough damage to really strain an ordinary caster's Concentration check; second, it's completely negated by several first-level spells that I would frankly expect a caster, even a blaster, to have up -- if not the first time, certainly afterwards.

[Gwendol]

Let the opposing team prepare Mordekainens Buzzing Bee spell: annoying. Another way would be looking at the Moonsea Sky Sentinel PrC spell reflection ability. Pretty darn cool, and could be a way to suggest the player to diversify his repertoir. Also, speak about the way he plays, OOC...

[Coidzor]

Aren't there spellblades or something which will reflect direct damage spells?

I seem to recall some build which used two of them and a cohort to play ping pong with spell reflection endlessly, each time making the spell more damaging until an enemy came by and got vaporized.



I'd imagine the first Black Tentacles he gets will leave him considering other options.

[Gwendol]

It's a 6k enchantment, and you're right:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109

gives the detail on how to exploit the enchantment.

[Red_Dog]

Hey all - I've got a player who seems to be obsessed with being a Blaster Caster, and I need to teach him that this isn't always the viable option.

Consider sicking Transmuter on to him and turning him into a frog. = ]

Jokes aside, you want awesome sauce counterspelling? =>

Nacturnomancer from Tome of Magic. Shadowcaster's side will focus on getting a metric load of Warp Spell. The class itself will also give a class features that make casters go back in time to try to kill you before you take away there spells. If they are lucky, they'll get that WISH past you. ^^

So the goods=>
Warp Spell
[I]Features
Capture Magic's Shadow
Innate Counterspell [Immediate action, NO SAVE counterspell, just have the same level spell/mystery ready! 3/day though at lvl8]
Eldritch Vortex [20ft around you = -4CL no save, 1/day 1 min]
[I]Capstone=> Shadow's Presistence if you dispelled/broke/counter-spelled innately you are immune to that spell/mystery for the next minute.

So yeah, sick THIS on to your friend. Sure, if played properly, this is in no way a TPK, but by the pope's hat, this will annoy every fiber in your friend ^^

[Zaranthan]

Since several people have already answered the question directly, I'm going to reiterate that putting a bunch of nonconsumable defensive items in the party's future loot is not a good way to demonstrate why blasting is bad. Anything that shuts down spellcasting will shut down battlefield controllers as well, so it won't actually show him that blasting is bad. What you want to do is show off a good controller antagonist shutting down the whole party DESPITE Mr. Blasty dishing out zillions of damage. Drown him with web and stinking cloud spells. Give him a sidekick running shield other. Throw in a minion with regeneration (I bet he can't dish out [Good] aligned damage to take out chain devils (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#chainDevilKyton)).

[CTrees]

The arms race issue is correct. Given the mentality, even if he starts out exclusively devoted to blasting, he won't finish that way. Restistance/immunity to his chosen elements will just push him to different elements. Send in grapplers and he'll add abrupt jaunt/other "get out of hugging free" cards. Counterspells or drow, he'll go stratospheric with CL. Iron Golems, he'll find the orbs. Ghosts, and he'll find the orb of force. Anti-magic fields, you could end up with an initiate of mystra. Non-combat encounters, he'll either sulk, or start pulling in other wizard tricks. Kill him, and he will only come back stronger. With this mentality, you'll eventually end up with either a mailman or batman.

I'd probably just have enemies coming from multiple directions, so that not everything can be hit with the same blast. When he does massive damage to one flank, it's totally reasonable for other enemies to primary him. You may be able to get him to go for a little more subtlety if he repeatedly sees this happening. I'm honestly not sure about the best way to get a player to change how he wants to play it, unfortunately. Sounds like a nuclear dan type, and... yeah.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you look at this for ideas?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation

[Deth Muncher]

Gah! So many responses. Sorry, my internet has been spotty so I couldn't respond until now.

With regards to "That's not the right way to do this" posts: You're right. I know it's not. And realistically, I shouldn't try to punish him in game for these things, because there is no one "right way" to play a character, and it's certainly not the DM's decision to tell someone how to make a character.

That being said, this is just something I've got to do. This test of character is going to come in three waves: The first will be a situation to try to make him realize that there are, in fact, other spells other than damage spells. This may take place as someone casting Black Tentacles/people being grappled other ways, or enemies immune to magic but vulnerable to melee or arrows just outside of range, or something else entirely. Failing this, the second test of character will be to target his Familiar with SoD/SoS's. This is pretty much the only other character in the party that he regularly converses with, and so this will serve the dual point of Save or Sucks...well, suck to get hit with, and he's got to interact with the rest of the party. Failing THAT, THEN I talk to him, because teaching via the game isn't going to work.

I know some of you think I should just go straight to round three, but...well, I recommend you go watch Egoraptor's video Sequilitis: Megaman. It pretty much outlines my philosophy on how I think the game designer/master should teach via the game as opposed to explicitly saying something.
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With regards to nonconsumable defenses - you know what? You're prooooooobably right. I wouldn't want those falling into PC hands, though for the most part, if the items would be too ridiculous, I COULD always just say the bodies dissolve into smoke upon defeat, and anything they had goes with them...but THAT'S just cruel. More likely than not, I just need to have Anti-Caster-Casters dotted around the battlefield. The PCs are currently going into a volcano-style dungeon (it's more a permanent rift to the Plane of Fire, but they don't know that), so having Fire-resistant enemies won't be a problem, and if I have people in there who can do interrupt-style things (NOT the Ring of Immortals, you're a bad person and should feel bad :smalltongue: ) then it's probably going to be better all around. I may add in the Ring of Spell-Battle or something, but I'm not sure yet.

So, other than that nutso Shadowcaster build, what're some other fun Anti-Caster-Caster builds for...eh, let's say a level 10 character? Because the PCs are level 8, so they shouldn't be too much more powerful.

[Zaranthan]

Level 10, eh? Three words: Wall of Thorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm). One of the few walls that can be breached through means other than straight damage or higher level spells. Ways through include boosting AC, damage reduction (stoneskin is a fun spell that blasters often overlook), and summoning creatures with claws (slashing damage to cut through). Ways through do NOT include fireball, lightning bolt, or any other $TEXAS damage spells.

They're going into an underground area? Drop the ceiling on them (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm). Then make them get the rubble out of their way. Scorching ray won't help here.

Throw mooks in their way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm). Retreat and leave spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/iceStorm.htm) that slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) them down. They persist and catch up with you? Walk into the wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meldIntoStone.htm).

You like what Egoraptor has to say about the game teaching you how to play it? Then listen more closely. Don't build a spellcaster NPC just to shut him down, DEMONSTRATE the TRUE power of spellcasting by showing off non-blasty spells. The party will probably run down the druid and defeat him, but every step of the journey will highlight how utterly useless raw hit point damage can be against a clever foe.

EDIT: Darn tags.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, a battlefield control Druid is pretty hardcore..

They can have Snowsight, Blood Snow, Obscuring Snow, Arctic Haze, Vortex of Teeth, Boreal Wind, Blizzard, Call Avalanche.

Just look through Frostburn...

[Tenno Seremel]

makes you immune vs. one spell chosen when the weapon is enchanted. Very good against Dispel and Dimensional Anchor.
Dispel is SR: No.

[ericgrau]

Resistance/immunity to all his energy types is unlikely, unless the DM is being a ****. I prefer more general defenses. Try spell resistance. Even if that forces him to switch to orb spells that'll lower his damage. Ban assay spell resistance btw; I don't say this about many things out there but that spell is just silly. +8? wtf. Against the biggest high level anti-caster balancing factor.

What you really need though are more situations that aren't (as) solvable with violence. Sneaking in to a heavily guarded fortress to get a specific item or kill a specific target without alerting an entire army to your presence. Diplomatic relations with group X. Quick sand. Bad weather. Archers behind arrow slits. Traps. Invisible grapplers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm).

He'll still get to go boom but not mindlessly so it'll be a more interesting and in depth game while he does it.

[Myou]

With regards to "That's not the right way to do this" posts: You're right. I know it's not. And realistically, I shouldn't try to punish him in game for these things, because there is no one "right way" to play a character, and it's certainly not the DM's decision to tell someone how to make a character.

That being said, this is just something I've got to do. This test of character is going to come in three waves: The first will be a situation to try to make him realize that there are, in fact, other spells other than damage spells. This may take place as someone casting Black Tentacles/people being grappled other ways, or enemies immune to magic but vulnerable to melee or arrows just outside of range, or something else entirely. Failing this, the second test of character will be to target his Familiar with SoD/SoS's. This is pretty much the only other character in the party that he regularly converses with, and so this will serve the dual point of Save or Sucks...well, suck to get hit with, and he's got to interact with the rest of the party. Failing THAT, THEN I talk to him, because teaching via the game isn't going to work.


Assuming that he's playing 'wrong' and that you can 'teach him' how he should play by beating up his character is not good DMing, it's patronizing and arrogant.

You say as much in this post. Then say you are going to do it anyway. :smallsigh:

You don't have to do this, and nor is it a test of character. How he wants to play the game is up to him, it's a game, it is in no way a test of character, and until you tell him face to face that he's reducing your fun, the blame lies solely with you.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to help you. If this player is a friend then doing this could have repercussions outside of the game.

[peacenlove]

Useful shadowcaster info

Expanding on this, Dancing shadows, unlike displacement makes your Shadowcaster untargetable due to total concealment. Consider quickening it. Add Shadow weave magic and a level of shadow adept for resistance gainst true seeing.
Area effects can be shrug off with a ring of evasion.
Orbs/Horrid wilting can be countered with Mettle. Twin echo spell on the orb will fry/electrocute/shatter/dissolve/explode 2 PC's. After that they will try to minimize his damage to around the player's HP.
Incorporeal mobs will make his blast spells 50% likely to fail thus straining his spell slots. Enervation will do the same albeit more offensively.
Prison of night -> Line of shadows: Wizard must dispel or shadowcaster can't be affected by most spells while freely affecting the party. Also he escapes easily with shadow walk.

[Deth Muncher]

@ Zaranthan: Oh, using my own words against me? I LIKE it! You make a good point, really. Incidentally, you also make a lot of good suggestions for encounters.

@ericgrau: You ALSO have lots of good points, and also provide an interesting counterpoint to Myou, which I'll get to presently.

@peacenlove: Shadow Weave (assuming you're talking about the FR idea) maaaaay not exactly be accessible at the moment due to campaign restrictions. Also, the Twin Echo Spell may be a LITTLE to OP for this particular situation, but I'm logging it for later.

@Myou: First and foremost, no, this guy is not a friend. Actually, he's not a friend of anyone in the group - just some guy a few of us knew who wanted to be in a campaign, so we picked him up. Maybe that's why I don't mind doing this as much? Though I'm probably just a horrible person.

Also, by "test of character," I was trying to be cute and say it was testing both his actual character of the game as well as his own personal character, but it failed.

Also, perhaps I used the wrong words in what I said. I am NOT of the opinion that there is a "right" way to play a character. But there IS a wrong way - and that's not trying to mesh with the narrative. And I'm not even taking it from the "I'm a DM, this is my story, you must do things within it" but rather this guy just isn't a team player. He makes no attempt to try to mesh with the party, and in fact now two people have come to me complaining about him. So I'm giving him a chance to be a team player and realize he's not playing a solo RPG.

[Slipperychicken]

He's trying to make this a Combat Sim, to the point where he's been trying to figure out what feats and spells to use PURELY - and I know this because I spoke with him - because he wants the highest damage per round. No respect for a story, just "I wanna have the biggest numbers so my numbers can out number the other guys numbers so I can be the numbersiest numberer that ever numbered."

It seems like your problem is with his mindset, rather than his spell selection. I recommend finding ways to get him to roleplay (one thing I heard of was, at the end of each session, vote for things like Best Roleplay Moment, possibly awarding a small amount of xp for it). Non-damage =/= roleplaying.

[mikau013]

If you don't tell him up front, you can't blame him if he doesn't change his behaviour.

Talking to people you play with should always be your first go to.

[Myou]

@ Zaranthan: Oh, using my own words against me? I LIKE it! You make a good point, really. Incidentally, you also make a lot of good suggestions for encounters.

@ericgrau: You ALSO have lots of good points, and also provide an interesting counterpoint to Myou, which I'll get to presently.

@peacenlove: Shadow Weave (assuming you're talking about the FR idea) maaaaay not exactly be accessible at the moment due to campaign restrictions. Also, the Twin Echo Spell may be a LITTLE to OP for this particular situation, but I'm logging it for later.

@Myou: First and foremost, no, this guy is not a friend. Actually, he's not a friend of anyone in the group - just some guy a few of us knew who wanted to be in a campaign, so we picked him up. Maybe that's why I don't mind doing this as much? Though I'm probably just a horrible person.

Also, by "test of character," I was trying to be cute and say it was testing both his actual character of the game as well as his own personal character, but it failed.

Also, perhaps I used the wrong words in what I said. I am NOT of the opinion that there is a "right" way to play a character. But there IS a wrong way - and that's not trying to mesh with the narrative. And I'm not even taking it from the "I'm a DM, this is my story, you must do things within it" but rather this guy just isn't a team player. He makes no attempt to try to mesh with the party, and in fact now two people have come to me complaining about him. So I'm giving him a chance to be a team player and realize he's not playing a solo RPG.

I don't think any of us see you as a horrible person. If you're determined to try in game responses then good luck - maybe you'll be lucky, and it'll work. I still say escalation or frustration is the more likely reaction, and out of game discussion is the way to go, but whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you.