[exalted][rant] i don't "get" abyssal games

[nihil8r]

long story short, my good buddy is obsessed with exalted and has recently started an abyssal game. i want to play with him and he's put a lot of work into the game so far, and i always enjoy hanging out with and roleplaying with my friends, but ...

what exactly is the point of an abyssal campaign? based upon my limited understanding of the exalted "world," all abyssal games MUST be about and only about destroying the world forever. if not, you're doing it wrong, because:

- the deathknights are slaves to the deathlords

- the deathlords are slaves to the neverborn

- the neverborn only have one goal and that is to destroy the world forever

an abyssal not only needs to be working to destroy the world at all times, but (based on my understanding) can be forced to work towards this end at all times. furthermore, the abyssals are solar-tier which means they have tons of i-win buttons. they also work for the deathlords which means they have easy protection against dragon bloods and sidereals as well as soulsteel galore. so it should be super easy to end creation. on paper, the newly returned solars don't stand a chance against the abyssals, and no one else should, either.

but wait, you say, the deathlords and neverborn are c-r-a-z-y and thus their plans to end the world will never work. that's why the 13 deathlords can't just work together in one awesome plan to destroy everything. well, why not? why is there a game where you are forced to try to destroy the world but you can't actually do it? and why would you want to destroy the world in the first place?

i feel like i'm taking crazy pills. :smallsigh:

[Andreaz]

A few of the deathlords have absolutely no interest in destroying the world. That already opens many possibilities.
Also, Abyssals can have any motivation they want, as long as its destroying something. (for a very base example: "To end the suffering of the neverborn" can be anything from destroying the world so that their fetters slip or finishing the job of killing them)


Mind you, I don't like abyssals either, but for entirely different reasons. They have less liberties than the other splats when they _don't_ want to go around ruining things, but they certainly can do it all.

[tonberrian]

1. You're wrong. About pretty much everything, actually.

Now, of course, it depends on the plot hooks the Storyteller hangs, but Abyssal games do not have to be about ending the world forever. It certainly is a possibility, and just because a game starts out that way does not mean it can't change course midway. The deathknights are not slaves to the Deathlords, the Deathlords, while they may be slaves, have a great latitude in how (and when) they will end the world. And no, the Abyssals cannot be forced to end things - though they have to work really hard to avoid it.

And no, the Abyssals do not have easy protection from the Dragonblooded or Sidereals. The Realm, for all the strife and civil unrest threatening it from within, is still the major power in Creation proper. It is not "super-easy" for the Abyssals to end Creation, or indeed, they would have by now. There are a lot of powerful beings with vested interests in keeping Creation safe, and they can challenge the power of the Abyssals and the Deathlords.

Why would you want to destroy the world indeed? That's a very good question to be asking yourself if you're playing an Abyssal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You think solars are better? The sidereals had a good reason to conduct the Usurpation.

Deathknights have Resonance. Just means you should kill your enemies. If you work really hard for it (and by Exalted standards, hard is HARD), you can redeem into a solar. Then we just have to find a way to destroy the Great Curse...

[DeadManSleeping]

The Abyssals book has many suggestions for types of Abyssal-centric chronicles. Most of them are gloom-gloom dark-brood, and the remainder are gorefest 9001, but they are, for the most part, interesting and sensible.

You're right about some things. There's a reason that the old "canon" end of Creation was that the Neverborn won. Before RotSE was written, they had the best hand on paper. But the Deathknights are not just undead. They are people. And any story about people in conflict with goals has the potential to be interesting.

[Mr.Bookworm]

- the deathknights are slaves to the deathlords

Mmm. No.

Some Abyssals are agents of their deathlords. Key word there is "agents". Not slaves. While some deathlords (primarily the more insane ones) treat their Abyssals like ****, the vast majority seem to recognize what an incredibly bad idea giving a Solar-level Exalted a reason to hate you is.

Anyway, it is a perfectly valid path for a deathknight to rebel against the deathlords.


- the deathlords are slaves to the neverborn

Correct, up to a certain point. The Neverborn are insane, half-asleep, and have very limited mobility. While the deathlords are the Neverborn's bitches, actual interaction with them is pretty rare.

The upshot of all of this is that the deathlords are mostly free to do whatever the hell they want, as long as they don't actively work against their masters' goal. This is good for the deathlords, because mostly, they don't want to destroy the world. The Lion wants to conquer the Underworld, Eye wants to live out an eternal revenge fantasy, the Prince wants to build an empire, and so on. A couple of them are somewhat dedicated towards their theoretical task, but they're the exception, not the rule.


- the neverborn only have one goal and that is to destroy the world forever

Mostly correct. The Neverborn's goal is to stop existing, since being a Neverborn is literally the worst possible thing that could ever happen to anyone. The only way known to do this is to kill everything. If there was another way to do it, they would take that option.


an abyssal not only needs to be working to destroy the world at all times, but (based on my understanding) can be forced to work towards this end at all times.

Eh. Sort of.

Resonance is the Abyssal Limit Break thing. It basically causes death whenever it goes off (the Abyssal can bleed it off in a more controlled manner, too), in a variety of ways of the Abyssals choosing. So, yes, Abyssals cause death merely by existing. There are ways to mitigate Resonance, though, and it's far from mind control or anything similar.


furthermore, the abyssals are solar-tier which means they have tons of i-win buttons.

Kind of. The entire reason that deathknights are so goddamn terrifying is because they have Solar-level magic.


they also work for the deathlords which means they have easy protection against dragon bloods and sidereals as well as soulsteel galore.

Easy protection against Dragon-Bloods and Sidereals? Not really, any more than any other type of Exalted with expansive infrastructure and the deathknight's inherent power.

But, yes, the deathlords having a big power base is the major advantage of a loyalist Abyssal. Check out the Liege background; that thing is crazy good.


so it should be super easy to end creation.

Maaaaaaaaybe (okay, yes, but not for the reasons you're thinking of, and that's another debate entirely). Again, the deathlords aren't generally interested in destroying Creation, and Abyssals are a pretty new thing. Nobody really had any idea they existed until the Mask of Winters pulled his little stunt at Thorns.

But, well, remember all of those times where things like, say, the Usurpation happened? Yeah, even Solars need to be careful among their "lessers". Even a mortal (or fifty) can be a serious threat to a newbie Solar-type.

Also, while there are technically ~100 Abyssals, that's not a unified whole. The deathlords don't work together, as a general rule.


on paper, the newly returned solars don't stand a chance against the abyssals, and no one else should, either.

Well... yes. Solars in the Age of Sorrows are very much the underdogs, as a general rule. You have no resources but that which you make for yourself. This provides a different experience from pretty much every other type of Exalted, who by default have some sort of organization backing them up.

So, yeah, newbie Solars are at a disadvantage compared to newbie loyalist Abyssals. Welcome to Creation, here's your shovel.

But, again, "the Abyssals" are in reality ~13 different factions with pretty different (sometimes mutually exclusive) goals. The Silver Prince doesn't give a crap if a circle kicks the Mask of Winters' ass back to the Underworld, and he might even give you aid if he thinks it'll further his plans.


but wait, you say, the deathlords and neverborn are c-r-a-z-y and thus their plans to end the world will never work. that's why the 13 deathlords can't just work together in one awesome plan to destroy everything. well, why not? why is there a game where you are forced to try to destroy the world but you can't actually do it? and why would you want to destroy the world in the first place?

The fight to destroy the world is indeed an uphill battle, which is the entire point of (theoretically) pointing 100 Solars at the problem. You have to fight, well, everyone, because even the other black hat factions don't particularly want to see their stuff get blown up. Destroying everything isn't as hard as saving everything, but it's still a hell of a nut to crack. But a story where you curbstomp everything wouldn't be very interesting, would it?

But, they do have a very important advantage: inevitability. The Neverborn, the Abyssals, and the deathlords are all truly immortal. Even Solars die. Even with rebelling Abyssals and backstabbing deathlords, the Neverborn have an eternity to wait for entropy to take hold and for Oblivion to win.

[golentan]

As has been said, many of your assumptions are wrong. My favorite point on which is the Deathlords wanting to kill creation: as has also been said they by and large want to take their sweet time about it.

And that's even before getting into wider faction disputes. Things like primordial politics: Solar Tier Exalts with a massive infrastructure, inroads/spies into the forces of death, and a vested interest in keeping creation around? *writes* infernal... exal...ted. Check. Or the Bureau of Destiny: Were you aware that Saturn keeps around a bunch of ghosts which she can use as an information source on the underworld, and has access to dozens of elder essence exalted hit squads should she ever decide something was a serious threat to muscling in on her non-oblivion deathly purview? Or the realm. Say what you will about their internal cohesiveness, and mock their lowest tier exalt status all you want, they still marshall more motes and magitech than most of the other forces active in creation combined, and they will drop everything and point themselves in the right direction given a suitably important cause to blow up. Or Lookshy: they have more cohesiveness and less qualms about applying their powers. Mask of winters insists on pushing it, Thorns is likely to find out what nuclear weapons equivalents do to burdgeoning infrastructure.

Heck, even some of the marginal... I hesitate to call them "factions," can put a serious crimp in someone's day. So, you've successfully killed creation, and are now sitting in the wyld dangling your feet over the edge of oblivion and wondering what to do next. Hey, what's that weird thing over... Did it just demand your heart? And giggle? No problem, stab it a couple times and... Holy ****, why won't it die? It's engulfing me, IT'S... mrrphl.

You, my friend, have just encountered a chimera. Yeah, pretty much indestructible, unless you think you can find every hair follicle it ever shed with a blowtorch.

Plus, the last time someone broke creation it got put back together again FAIRLY quickly. Time of Cascading Years. Not something to want to repeat, but reality recovered from being splintered like a piece of wood in a toothpick factory.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I hate abyssals, and can't imagine wanting to play one, but I hate them for other reasons.

[nihil8r]

thanks for the replies, i feel a little better :smallcool:

[Tiki Snakes]

The distinction between the people above your character wanting you to end creation and the game itself is important. I actually can't imagine rolling an Abyssal without essentially betraying and opposing the Neverborn eventually.

Though to a degree, that's partly to do with my own instincts and hangups.

[Fatebreaker]

Other folks have covered the macro-side of why an Abyssal game isn't an open-and-shut case, so I'll take a moment to look at the micro-side of things.

Each Abyssal is deathless. Somewhere, somehow, they were placed outside the traditional cycle of death and rebirth which everyone else exists under. Not only does their faction (faction of factions of factions?) have all eternity, but each individual Abyssal does as well. They are in no rush.

Each Abyssal is still someone worthy of Exaltation. They dream big, want big, think big, act big. Even their subtle stuff is big. They have goals and wants and desires, even if those are just vestigial habits from when they were mortal. While the Black Exaltation calls upon them to hurl their name into Oblivion, unmaking all that they would ever be, it does not unmake all that they ever were. All those memories and experiences leave a mark of sorts. Desires.

Some of them are, thanks to the above, quite willing to take their time and smell some black roses along the path of oblivion.

Your original question...


what exactly is the point of an abyssal campaign?

...is easy to answer. The point is about whatever your character wants it to be about.

If you had an eternity and nigh-unlimited resources what would you do?

So long as you can spin your actions as somehow detrimental to Creation, you can get away with quite a bit... for awhile. Eventually, if you slip the leash too much (without slipping it all the way, and redeeming yourself as a Solar), someone above you can and will call you to task. So be clever. Be sneaky. Even if someone else wants to end Creation, do you? How can you look like you're helping, while slowly working towards your own goals?

I'd recommend reading the Abyssal book and the Compass of Celestial Directions IV: The Underworld to get a better understanding of the world that the Abyssals life in. Anything about Creation in general is also a big help, so you can start thinking of who you were and how that influences who you are.

But always keep in mind: there are no limits on what a Abyssal (or Solar) can achieve... so don't limit yourself in what you want your Abyssal to do!

--

Edit: Check out this thread for another group and its Abyssal hijinks! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231815 They have some cool ideas for Abyssals. For example? One of them wants to prove himself as more real than Neverborn. How? Kill them. Very classy.