[3.P] Artificer build help request

[ranger557]

Hi all, right now I am an Elf Artificer in a 3.P game and right now we are level 6. I am having a blast using all the different abilities they have and the potential to use any magic spell at my disposal :smallbiggrin:. However, I realized the campaign is definitely going to get higher level and I was thinking about my build. I am now planning to go Blastificer/Buffticer instead just being the buffer guy. Here are my feats and stats, but was wondering what are the best feats for a blast type artificer? How are empower and twin? should I get quicken sooner? Also how does the pricing work for a metamagic wand? Thanks for any advice, This class is fun but complex lol :smallsmile:.

Elf Artificer Level 6

(High Powered Campaign, thats why high stats (ancient races blah blah....lol))
Str: 11
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 22
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus(UMD)

[ranger557]

Just in case I didn't mention. All 3.5 and PF material is allowed and also retraining feats is too. :smallsmile:

[Alienist]

Stupid question, why point blank shot and precise shot?

[Aharon]

Three very important questions that have major influence on how well artificers work:

1) Does the DM enforce WBL? If so, the traditional "You get equivalent to x gp at level x, and if you increase that via your own crafting, you get more", or (less often used) "You get equivalent to x gp after any improvements, the reward of crafting is that you get exactly what you wish and not what monsters leave behind"?

2) Does the DM enforce or handwave crafting time? Many campaigns gloss over this, and many people on the boards advise the use of feats and a homuncolus to solve this problem, but if there's very little rest, only cheese will allow you to keep creating stuff.

3) Are custom items allowed? If so, create an UMD+10 item, it will help you immensely.

Less important question, and advice:
Are you still allowed to change the stats and feats? You obviously optimized for low-level survivability (High Dex, feats that help your ranged attacks). For low levels, this was a good choice, but you will soon start not needing them any more.

Advice:
Don't focus on crafting only. Infusions are a wonderful, wonderful tool.

[ranger557]

Stupid question, why point blank shot and precise shot?

Well at first I was going to go for archery, but then decided to go wand blaster and buffer since I am the only magic user in the group. So when I looked at the guide book for artificer, they recommended the same feats for the Blastificer as well as metamagics. So that is why I kept them and just in case I need to use my bow.


Three very important questions that have major influence on how well artificers work:

1) Does the DM enforce WBL? If so, the traditional "You get equivalent to x gp at level x, and if you increase that via your own crafting, you get more", or (less often used) "You get equivalent to x gp after any improvements, the reward of crafting is that you get exactly what you wish and not what monsters leave behind"?

2) Does the DM enforce or handwave crafting time? Many campaigns gloss over this, and many people on the boards advise the use of feats and a homuncolus to solve this problem, but if there's very little rest, only cheese will allow you to keep creating stuff.

3) Are custom items allowed? If so, create an UMD+10 item, it will help you immensely.

Less important question, and advice:
Are you still allowed to change the stats and feats? You obviously optimized for low-level survivability (High Dex, feats that help your ranged attacks). For low levels, this was a good choice, but you will soon start not needing them any more.

Advice:
Don't focus on crafting only. Infusions are a wonderful, wonderful tool.

1. Our DM is pretty cool with anything as long as you don't break the game and I myself enjoy this class so I really don't want to break the game either. I already know the power this class has, its fun doing what i need to do when I need it. So he does try to go by the WBL but I think he is still getting use to the high level campaigns (he runs mostly low level adventures and thats it).

2. In our game, to raise you level you have to train with your corresponding class. Therefore, we have plenty of downtime and can choose to take more if we want to for RP or my crafting :smallbiggrin:.

3. I am not sure, I would have to ask him if he would allow me to. I guess he would be cool with it as long as I don't abuse it lol.

Also thanks for the advice on the stats and feats. We can change feats, but not sure about stats. Either way I think my stats are good as they are , I am not definitely going meleeficier lol. Just wand blaster and buffer :smallbiggrin:, helping my team kick ass and being a badass with my magic. Also one more thing, is that I totally agree about infusions they are awesome. I think I could use the skill enhancement infusion to help me craft things by enhancing my UMD skill, is that correct?

[Psyren]

I assume you've already read the handbook. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2829) For best metamagic feats, I'd read a wizard or sorcerer handbook and see what blasting feats are recommended there. At a minimum you'll want Energy Substitution so that you only have to craft one or a few wands of each type (e.g. one that fires a cone, one that fires a ball, one that fires a line etc.) Also, you can "stack" metamagic by crafting a wand with it built in (e.g. Wand of Twinned Magic Missile) and then using your Metamagic Spell Trigger on that.

For the price - I was under the impression that the way metamagic factors into item creation is that you use the adjusted spell level in the price calculation. For example, a wand of Empowered Fireball would cost the same to create as a wand of Cone of Cold because they're both 5th-level spells. I could be wrong on that though.

For Skill Enhancement, I don't think you can help your crafting with it, because it takes 8 hours/day to craft and that infusion only lasts 10 min./level. But my advice is to take something like Skill Focus (UMD) or Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) to boost your checks early on, then retrain it later - using either the rules in PHB2, or Limited Wish - into a better feat.

[Alienist]

For the price - I was under the impression that the way metamagic factors into item creation is that you use the adjusted spell level in the price calculation. For example, a wand of Empowered Fireball would cost the same to create as a wand of Cone of Cold because they're both 5th-level spells. I could be wrong on that though.


Not quite, minimum caster level for an empowered fireball would be 5, whereas for the cone of cod (sic) it would be 9.

Also, the maximum spell level for wands is 4 - or did they increase that in PF??

[Suddo]

Might I suggest going Sun Elf if you want to go Elf at all. I think they are in Forgotten Realms, basically +Cha Elf. I think Grey Elf is +Int that may be an even better choice.
For feats I'd suggest:
Flaw: -25% XP on crafts
Flaw: -25% Gold cost of crafts
Level 1: Twin Metamagic
Level 3: Two Weapon Fighting
Artificer 4:
Level 6: Wand Mastery
Artificer 8: Craft Construct
Level 9: Dual Wand Wielder
Artificer 12: Extra Rings

Something like that maybe fun (I have an open slot you may just be able to move everything down one).

Depending on how much you want to turn the world on its head. You can actually make a Create Food and Water Trap that despenses every 6 seconds. Start a bakery and have some mook (dominated, summoned, clone, leadership or just cool dude) run the shop and sell the food for 3cp (the cost of 3 poor meals. Oh and connect a Presdigitation Trap to it to make it delicious. This will net you 43200cp, 432gp, a day (hook it up to a pressure plate so it keeps pumping out while your mook sleeps). That will make you enough money to do what ever you want. For XP make sure to look at XP is a river (link below).


Here's your homework:
Metamagic and You: A Thesis (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0) Good right up and sense the main reason you're going to be awesome, as a blastificer, is metamagic abuse.
Cheap Spells (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661): This is a list of spells that you can get at early levels so you can cheaply make wands.
XP is a River (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River) A great post showing how staying a level behind (via crafting or LA) can benefit you more in the long run.
The create food trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231672) is gone over in that post.
A guide to reducing crafting cost (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0) You should probably take up another feat to reduce a wands cost even more.

Edit: Sorry for the delay my internet died last night.

[ranger557]

I assume you've already read the handbook. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2829) For best metamagic feats, I'd read a wizard or sorcerer handbook and see what blasting feats are recommended there. At a minimum you'll want Energy Substitution so that you only have to craft one or a few wands of each type (e.g. one that fires a cone, one that fires a ball, one that fires a line etc.) Also, you can "stack" metamagic by crafting a wand with it built in (e.g. Wand of Twinned Magic Missile) and then using your Metamagic Spell Trigger on that.

For the price - I was under the impression that the way metamagic factors into item creation is that you use the adjusted spell level in the price calculation. For example, a wand of Empowered Fireball would cost the same to create as a wand of Cone of Cold because they're both 5th-level spells. I could be wrong on that though.

For Skill Enhancement, I don't think you can help your crafting with it, because it takes 8 hours/day to craft and that infusion only lasts 10 min./level. But my advice is to take something like Skill Focus (UMD) or Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) to boost your checks early on, then retrain it later - using either the rules in PHB2, or Limited Wish - into a better feat.

I don't think we are using Incarnum and I really don't know much about that system. I might try to make a custom magic item to increase my UMD skill and retrain my feat skill focus for another metamagic feat.

True, I can craft a wand with one metamagic feat and then at lvl 7 use my metamagic trigger to put another feat on there for more power. Also I think I need reread the cost for making the wand.

If the cost would be this Caster level X spell level X 750. Then it would just bump up the spell level.....However I think Alienist is right that the max spell level on a wand is 4th. So with scorching ray it would work but not fireball or higher level spells. Is that a true statement?



Might I suggest going Sun Elf if you want to go Elf at all. I think they are in Forgotten Realms, basically +Cha Elf. I think Grey Elf is +Int that may be an even better choice.
For feats I'd suggest:
Flaw: -25% XP on crafts
Flaw: -25% Gold cost of crafts
Level 1: Twin Metamagic
Level 3: Two Weapon Fighting
Artificer 4:
Level 6: Wand Mastery
Artificer 8: Craft Construct
Level 9: Dual Wand Wielder
Artificer 12: Extra Rings

Something like that maybe fun (I have an open slot you may just be able to move everything down one).

Depending on how much you want to turn the world on its head. You can actually make a Create Food and Water Trap that despenses every 6 seconds. Start a bakery and have some mook (dominated, summoned, clone, leadership or just cool dude) run the shop and sell the food for 3cp (the cost of 3 poor meals. Oh and connect a Presdigitation Trap to it to make it delicious. This will net you 43200cp, 432gp, a day (hook it up to a pressure plate so it keeps pumping out while your mook sleeps). That will make you enough money to do what ever you want. For XP make sure to look at XP is a river (link below).


Here's your homework:
Metamagic and You: A Thesis (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0) Good right up and sense the main reason you're going to be awesome, as a blastificer, is metamagic abuse.
Cheap Spells (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661): This is a list of spells that you can get at early levels so you can cheaply make wands.
XP is a River (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River) A great post showing how staying a level behind (via crafting or LA) can benefit you more in the long run.
The create food trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231672) is gone over in that post.
A guide to reducing crafting cost (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0) You should probably take up another feat to reduce a wands cost even more.

Edit: Sorry for the delay my internet died last night.

We are using PF so the Elf already get +2 int and so forth and other bonuses too. So Im good on race, thanks though. Feats wise that looks cool but I don't think I would go two weapon fighting with wands because wouldn't that burn charges more and can i only effect one with my metamagic spell trigger ability? Also I don't want to break the game and get more money by doing that....the DM would ban my class lol.

[Suddo]

You maybe right about the dual wand wielding and metamagics. I'd ask your DM I don't think the ability specifically says you can't apply more than one metamagic, though it is often considered to be true.
Most people consider the other Artisan feat that reduces time too be a okay to bad feat. If you are burning through wands faster than you can use them feel free to take it though.

[SirFredgar]

I've played an artificer and here are some observations: If you are going wand-slinging, you really can drop PBS and Prescise shot, as most of the time you are hitting a touch AC. Skill Focus was a great idea starting out, but it should be getting pretty useless to you by now, or will shortly, espeically if you are making appropriate items to boost that skill.

Some feats you might consider to replace them are: Quicken, Twin, Split Ray, Empower, Energy Sub + Energy Admixture.

Now, how effective you are at blasting is really a GM call. It depends on one infusion: Meta Magic Item Infusion. If your GM says you can use this on the same wand multiple times for different metamagic... well... then you probably want to grab all the feats I listed as you'll be able to stack them all for insane damage potential. If your GM rules it's one MMI Infusion per wand, then you can get by Quicken + Twin or split ray. I would personally say Quicken + Split.

This allows you use MMI (Quicken) to be able to cast from a wand of Lesser Orb X (No save, no SR, first level spell so fairly cost efficient), and split those into 4 orbs a turn with a metamagic spell trigger on each casting. This burns 4 additional charges. If you know the monster is not fire immune (or you substituted the energy via infusion or other trick) a scorching ray can get pretty rediculous. Just watch out for SR.

If you want to buff, you really only need two feats. Extend spell + Persistant Spell. Reach + Chain spell help to be a master buffer for the party, but aren't strickly needed for a wander build. Well... chain can be fun either way, but that's all up to you.

When it comes to crafting feats, they can be worth it. They make your primary offence more cost/xp effective, so that's nothing to look down on since an artificer basically is a class that converts gold directly to power. Wand Mastery (+2 CL on wands) is also handy for stretching out your gold.

As has ben mentioned, though, you either need a dedicated wright working on your items for you all the time, or sufficient down time. You also want to drop the hint with your GM that you'd -really- like downtime before you level up.... wasting your craft reserve because level 7 took place entirely in a dungeon is a sad x-mas for any arti.

[ranger557]

I've played an artificer and here are some observations: If you are going wand-slinging, you really can drop PBS and Prescise shot, as most of the time you are hitting a touch AC. Skill Focus was a great idea starting out, but it should be getting pretty useless to you by now, or will shortly, espeically if you are making appropriate items to boost that skill.

Some feats you might consider to replace them are: Quicken, Twin, Split Ray, Empower, Energy Sub + Energy Admixture.

Now, how effective you are at blasting is really a GM call. It depends on one infusion: Meta Magic Item Infusion. If your GM says you can use this on the same wand multiple times for different metamagic... well... then you probably want to grab all the feats I listed as you'll be able to stack them all for insane damage potential. If your GM rules it's one MMI Infusion per wand, then you can get by Quicken + Twin or split ray. I would personally say Quicken + Split.

This allows you use MMI (Quicken) to be able to cast from a wand of Lesser Orb X (No save, no SR, first level spell so fairly cost efficient), and split those into 4 orbs a turn with a metamagic spell trigger on each casting. This burns 4 additional charges. If you know the monster is not fire immune (or you substituted the energy via infusion or other trick) a scorching ray can get pretty rediculous. Just watch out for SR.

If you want to buff, you really only need two feats. Extend spell + Persistant Spell. Reach + Chain spell help to be a master buffer for the party, but aren't strickly needed for a wander build. Well... chain can be fun either way, but that's all up to you.

When it comes to crafting feats, they can be worth it. They make your primary offence more cost/xp effective, so that's nothing to look down on since an artificer basically is a class that converts gold directly to power. Wand Mastery (+2 CL on wands) is also handy for stretching out your gold.

As has ben mentioned, though, you either need a dedicated wright working on your items for you all the time, or sufficient down time. You also want to drop the hint with your GM that you'd -really- like downtime before you level up.... wasting your craft reserve because level 7 took place entirely in a dungeon is a sad x-mas for any arti.

I agree touch AC is pretty low, but that -4 hurts doesnt? Lol also im an elf so i can also use a bow and that helps out to right? Or should i focus all my feats on my blasting spells?

I definitely will get those feats for my buffing and blasting powers. Also i dont have to worry for the craft reserve because we are using the PF rules for crafting. No xp is used :smallbiggrin:.

Also want is the cost on metamagic wands? Is it the new level and caster level x the 750gp price? Also what are the best spells to use in wands compared to scrolls? Thanks for the advice its very helpful :smallsmile:.

[ranger557]

I was thinking about the cost of a metamagic wand and this is what I came up with.

For an empowered scorching ray wand it would be:

4th level x 7 caster level x 750gp = 21000gp is that correct?

So in the end most higher level spells couldn't be created with metamagic feats is that correct too? Also I notice if I want longer buff spells like displacement, enlarge person, bless and etc. I would need the Extend spell feat but it would more cost effective to use my buff spells on wands than making a bunch of scrolls all the time ( which I have been doing these past levels and it drains my gp like a knife on butter :smallfrown:).

Also Im thinking on focusing on my character more because the past levels i built a good amount of stuff for my friends. One is a TWF dwarf fighter and he saved gold and we got a little extra from another player to get Holy on both of his weapons and we are only lvl 6....a little too powerful :smallconfused:? We are a high powered game, so I guess it works and also I built a bow and some googles for my half-elf ranger ally. At last, I built some full plate and enhancement amulet for another fighter we had (but he left the game). So I think I should focus on my build more but sadly I AM the ONLY spellcaster in the group :smallfrown:.

What can I do to help save money for myself, and get the scrolls and wands I want? What spells are worth it for wands compared to scrolls? Thanks