[3.5]I'm a fighter that for story is Fire-Souled. What do I do with 20+ CHA?

[Jigokuro]

I already have good STR/DEX/CON, so I figured I'd put my last good roll in an already boosted CHA, but aside from scaring people what can an incredibly good looking fighter do?
I can definitely multiclass, there a lot of options there. I'm firm on CG so either a Sorc dip then into one of the spellsword-y classes could work, or that Paly of Freedom variant, but I'm not really that good, or very magically inclined. I just love fighting for glory, and Kord.
Are there any good PrCs for fighters that are charisma related? Come to think of it I don't really know good PrCs for fighters in general, I normally make ridiculous casters.

P.S.
Obviously I already have Leadership (as it is part of the template), IDK what to do with that either, but my cha is so good that I'll have good followers w/o extra investment.
P.P.S. Xvarts are SO OP.

[watchwood]

Prestige Bard comes to mind pretty quick, if you want a combination of fighting and casting. It also comes with the perk of letting you wear light armours without chance of spell failure. I dunno if they exist, but I'd suggest looking into a feats and stuff that increases that into medium/heavy armour and shields as well. Mithral chainmail and bucklers come to mind pretty quick.

[subject42]

There's a fighter sublevel called "Zhentarim" or something that makes intimidation pretty effective. You could play off that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels. It's easy to just reflavor as a bully archetype and remove its association to a specific organization. Get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and the feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. Get the feat Dreadful Wrath in PGtF, along with Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus). If you're a half-orc (or haven't started playing yet and can switch to half-orc) get the feat Menacing Demeanor in RoD and CS, preferably via the Otyugh Hole detailed in CS. Dip a single level of Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) as well.

An alternative would be to go something like Fighter 2/ Duskblade 2/ Paladin (variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)) 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Dragon Disciple 4. That will give you tons of buffs and utility spells, all Cha-based, without really losing out on any combat ability. You can still combine that with Dreadful Wrath, in which case you should max UMD and get a Runestaff (MIC) with Aura of Terror (SC) by the time you get 6th level spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) lets you use intimidation more effectively, if you can get your DM to ignore the fluff requirement. Imperious Command (a feat from Drow of the Underdark, but there are multiple websites with D&D feats from almost all of the sources) makes you even better at intimidation.

Two levels of paladin (including the chaotic good, lawful evil, and chaotic evil variants) gives you charisma to saves.

Two levels of crusader (Tome of Battle) gives you charisma to will saves, and it stacks with the paladin bonus.

One level of Witch Hunter (Oriental Adventures) gives you charisma to saves and stacks with paladin and crusader.

Force of Will (Complete Adventurer) gives you charisma to will saves in place of wisdom.

[Gwendol]

Dreadful Wrath feat (PGtF). Free intimidate when charging, full attacking or using a spell.

Also, you might want to check out the Purple Dragon Knight.

[Voyager_I]

One level of Marshall gives you and all your friends your Charisma bonus to whatever you want.

I wouldn't spend long in the class, but +5 Initiative to everybody forever is pretty cool.

[CyMage]

Two levels of paladin (including the chaotic good, lawful evil, and chaotic evil variants) gives you charisma to saves.

Two levels of crusader (Tome of Battle) gives you charisma to will saves, and it stacks with the paladin bonus.

One level of Witch Hunter (Oriental Adventures) gives you charisma to saves and stacks with paladin and crusader.



You add your Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on Will
saves. This bonus does not stack with that from a paladin’s
divine grace ability. That's a direct quote from ToB about the Crusader ability.

It will by RAW stack with the Witch Hunter one. Paladin and WC should stack just fine due to them being different abilities technically.

[Igneel]

Okay, I'm probably going to get laughed at, but I think that this is an interesting bit of advice that should be food for thought at least...

In the BoEF, there is an armor special ability called Confidence that for a +1 ability gives a +2 enhance to Cha and your Cha to Will saves.

With that out of the way, I'll let people laugh once they figure out the source book.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay, I'm probably going to get laughed at, but I think that this is an interesting bit of advice that should be food for thought at least...

In the BoEF, there is an armor special ability called Confidence that for a +1 ability gives a +2 enhance to Cha and your Cha to Will saves.

With that out of the way, I'll let people laugh once they figure out the source book.

Does it require the armor to be purely decorational and provide little actual protection? :smalltongue:

But yeah, that sounds pretty good. It's always better to pay for a +1 than for a feat like Force of Personality, and get even more benefit

Just remember the book's third-party.

[Voyager_I]

Does it require the armor to be purely decorational and provide little actual protection? :smalltongue:

I wonder what the ASF is on Tassels of Confidence.

Could be a good pickup for the Sorceror.

[Igneel]

Does it require the armor to be purely decorational and provide little actual protection? :smalltongue:

But yeah, that sounds pretty good. It's always better to pay for a +1 than for a feat like Force of Personality, and get even more benefit

Just remember the book's third-party.

Actually its only described as being "made of finely polished steel, often embossed with gold." so I suppose technically it doesn't have to fall into the bikini chainmail category. :smallwink:

Being that its a third-party book, with the type of content that it has in it, is the largest reason why I never point it out to people in the OP's position. But I honestly think that considering that it's not as 'bad' as the rest of the book that it could be allowed compared to the rest of the material. But that would be up to the Dm anyways.

[gbprime]

Okay, I'm probably going to get laughed at, but I think that this is an interesting bit of advice that should be food for thought at least...

In the BoEF, there is an armor special ability called Confidence that for a +1 ability gives a +2 enhance to Cha and your Cha to Will saves.

With that out of the way, I'll let people laugh once they figure out the source book.

Any campaign that seriously uses that book has obviously brought the secret of Gloryborn armor back to the prime material plane for general use. :smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

You might find some inspiration here: X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

[Crasical]

I am going to keep posting this when people ask for how to use charisma in a melee build until someone actually plays it.




There's a spell called Undersong in a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

[Randomguy]

You could prestige into suel archanamach, for some decent but not great spellcasting.

Purple Dragon Knight is a decent 5 level PRC with cha based abilities.

You could become a favoured soul of divine crusader of Kord.

[gomipile]

You could use the Duel of Wills use of the Intimidate skill from Tome of Battle(p. 27.) It requires no action(since it is resolved before initiative is rolled,) and can give small bonuses or penalties to either side depending on how the duel goes.

[Rhatahema]

If you're looking for a paladin that leans a little more towards chaos than good, the Avenger from Dragon310 retains divine grace, but has an aura of chaos, detect law, smite law, replaces divine health with slippery mind, and gets intimidate as a class skill. Could go for 2 to 4 levels depending on how interested you are in divine might.

[gomipile]

Or just go Crusader most of the way. Crusader is a great class, and is compatible with any alignment except true neutral.

[Crasical]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233772 :smallconfused: Accidental double post?

[Particle_Man]

.S.
Obviously I already have Leadership (as it is part of the template), IDK what to do with that either, but my cha is so good that I'll have good followers w/o extra investment.

Cheese out with CG Warlock followers? Even 1 level dweebs can hit pretty often with touch attacks, and they do add up, and can be kept up all day long. Give them all different warlock invocations for a lot of variety or just the "long range" Eldritch Spear to keep them out of harm's way.

[Particle_Man]

Don't know which thread you are following, but for followers, try CG warlocks (either vary their invocations to cover a lot of bases, or be lazy and give them eldritch spear for infinite long range touch attacks (not bad for 1st level dweebs!).

[avr]

The Binder section of the Tome of Magic has a couple of relevant PrCs. One lets you dip Binder then after a few levels in the PRC wind up with +CHA to just about everything for one round in every 5, the other turns you into a binder hunter with among other things the ability to target someone with an anti-magic field (Will save negates, save based on CHA).

[Jigokuro]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233772 :smallconfused: Accidental double post?

Ha! I have no idea how that happened. Thanks there was a lot more there lol.

[Jigokuro]

I am going to keep posting this when people ask for how to use charisma in a melee build until someone actually plays it.

I think... I might have to do this... yeah... "Dodge the dragon's breath? Nah, I cut it in half around me."
Reminds me of this:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_h0RUXnTEmfI/Sbdrd_5QPpI/AAAAAAAAAOI/IqbZkdIEHEI/s400/bankai_t_vert.png

[Crasical]

I think... I might have to do this... yeah... "Dodge the dragon's breath? Nah, I cut it in half around me."
Reminds me of this:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_h0RUXnTEmfI/Sbdrd_5QPpI/AAAAAAAAAOI/IqbZkdIEHEI/s400/bankai_t_vert.png

Would you believe the inspiration for this was a Touhou character (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Youmu_Konpaku)?

If you take four levels of Hexblade, you not only get Mettle to boost your saves you can also take the ACF to swap your familiar for a Dark Companion and get a Ghost-half.

[kulosle]

Iaijutsu Master benefits form having a high cha and is purely a fighter class. But you have to figure out how to get iaijutsu focus on you charact, i believe there is a feat that lets you add a skill as a class skill cosmopolitan i think.

[Crasical]

Iaijutsu Master benefits form having a high cha and is purely a fighter class. But you have to figure out how to get iaijutsu focus on you charact, i believe there is a feat that lets you add a skill as a class skill cosmopolitan i think.

There's also the problems of getting an enemy truly flat footed so you can make Iajutsu attacks, and drawing weapons to attack them with... Marbles or a few diamond mind maneuvers will help with the former.

[Jigokuro]

Would you believe the inspiration for this was a Touhou character (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Youmu_Konpaku)?

If you take four levels of Hexblade, you not only get Mettle to boost your saves you can also take the ACF to swap your familiar for a Dark Companion and get a Ghost-half.

I'm somewhat familiar with touhou, that seems a very good system rendering of her. Too bad I'm quite stuck as CG and Hexblade is an any non-G class. I can, however, take a 1 level dip of Pious Templar. True believer is a 'meh' feat but still entirely worth it for mettle (as WF(Greatsword) is entirely worthwhile already, lol).

Edit: Am I missing something, or is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) RIDICULOUS?

[Waddacku]

Arcane Duelists has slightly painful feat prereqs, requires casting but doesn't advance it, and has bad BAB. Features are pretty nice, though, including free damage from Dexterous Attack combined with Power Attack with a two-hander.

I'd suggest a level or two of Soldier of Light (from Deities and Demigods), but it's NG only (and patron deity: Elishar). Other prereqs are just 5 BAB and 4 ranks of Knowledge (religion). Full BAB, good Fort, and gives you Turn Undead (and Detect Undead) first level, so you can start putting that Charisma to use. A second level gets Divine Grace (and Smite Undead). Also a tiny bit of Wis-based divine casting.

[Wavelab]

Okay, I'm probably going to get laughed at, but I think that this is an interesting bit of advice that should be food for thought at least...

In the BoEF, there is an armor special ability called Confidence that for a +1 ability gives a +2 enhance to Cha and your Cha to Will saves.

With that out of the way, I'll let people laugh once they figure out the source book.

Ok wait... You're actually suggesting that to a Chaotic Good fighter who might multi-class as a paladin? Holy panties?

[Telonius]

Just to throw it out there...

Use Magic Device is keyed to Charisma.

[Fearan]

Dip bard for snowflake wardance (frostburn). Get slippers of battledancing. Add cha to attack and damage. Warrior Skald (Races of Faerun) works too

[Dr.Epic]

Multiclass to a class that actually uses cha.

[Igneel]

Ok wait... You're actually suggesting that to a Chaotic Good fighter who might multi-class as a paladin? Holy panties?

If you read through that book, they even gave examples on how paladins just like anyone else needs love. Besides, just because the armor ability came from that source doesn't mean that it has to be a chainmail bikini/thong.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Duplicate threads merged.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Multiclass into Warblade, do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3). You could also dip a single level of Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) for Motivate Charisma, so you add your Cha bonus to all of your Cha-based skill checks a second time.

[Crasical]

Multiclass into Warblade, do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3). You could also dip a single level of Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) for Motivate Charisma, so you add your Cha bonus to all of your Cha-based skill checks a second time.

:smallannoyed: *shakes his fist at Biffoniacus and NeoSeraphi*

[Jigokuro]

I am doing the Warblade that cuts everything idea. Considering dipping 2 in Chaos Monk to get evasion (and a few feats), for added hilarity. Thoughts?

Edit: Just noticed that a dip of monk like that puts me in the perfect position to prc into master of Nine.:smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

I am going to keep posting this when people ask for how to use charisma in a melee build until someone actually plays it.

<_<
>_>

Can one fit that in with a white raven focused build?

[absolmorph]

<_<
>_>

Can one fit that in with a white raven focused build?
It looks like it. You just need a magic item, a skill maxed, and a few maneuvers that are good anyway.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Multiclass into Warblade, do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3). You could also dip a single level of Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) for Motivate Charisma, so you add your Cha bonus to all of your Cha-based skill checks a second time.

I actually came here just to suggest this.

You are now this Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3). Then, you're going to dip Marshal (for Motivate Dexterity to add your CHA to your Initiative checks), take Cosmopolitan to get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, and max Iaijutsu Focus as much as humanly possible (on top of Perform [Weapon Drill], of course). PrCing into Iaijutsu Master helps (EDIT: But you cannot currently, as you are lawful! Too bad!). If you're lacking in skill ranks, take Nymph's Kiss.

You are now a character who charges gloriously into battle, delivering telling blows to unready opponents through the driving force of character, and can cut lightning with your swordplay.

Now, the pressing question: What level are you? How many of your levels are locked in (if the campaign has already started)? You can build a truly epic character off of this concept if your build is malleable, but if you're locked in it can still be acquired through a series of dips.

[Jigokuro]

^ I'm only level 1 (and an LA from firesouled), with that level being fighter and locked as such. However, I can't change my alignment from CG for story purposes, so no Iaijutsu :(

[Crasical]

this Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3).

We need a better name for that build.

[Lonely Tylenol]

^ I'm only level 1 (and an LA from firesouled), with that level being fighter and locked as such. However, I can't change my alignment from CG for story purposes, so no Iaijutsu :(

Yeah, I saw. That's too bad.

I would still take Cosmopolitan (http://dndtools.eu/feats/forgotten-realms-campaign-setting--19/cosmopolitan--440/) (Iaijutsu Focus) and just not be concerned with Iaijutsu Master as a Prestige Class.

Going Fighter 2/Paladin of Freedom 2/Warblade 1/Marshal 1/PrC or class dip of choice 1/Warblade 2nd and on might be a good choice, as well. You'd come online with an Initiator Level of 3 for your first level of Warblade, which would get you 2nd-level maneuvers, and you'd have an Initiator Level of 5 for your second level of Warblade, so your second and third level could each be used to grab 3rd-level maneuvers if you so chose; in addition, you'd get the two feats for going Fighter, CHA to saves from going Paladin of Freedom (plus a smite use), CHA again to any save (or to any check, or whatever you choose to assign it to) from the Marshal dip, and a free level to take literally whatever you want. The build is restrictive in skills if you still take Iaijutsu Focus (I'd use the Marshal dip to add as many ranks as humanly possible into Perform [Weapon Drill] while it's a class skill), but still accomplishes both the "I move lightning quick through my opponent's innards" and "I cut through my opponent's mind-control techniques with my sword" tricks quite effectively.

Dammit, now I really want to build both of these together...

P.S. Is homebrew allowed? Will your DM allow you to be the Dashing Swordsman (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman)? :smallbiggrin:


We need a better name for that build.

Unfortunately, I didn't come up with it (and I don't know who NeoSeraphi was referencing, who came up with the build originally), so I don't think I deserve to name it. I'm willing to accept whatever name the originators come up with, though, and I am willing to name the unholy amalgamation that comes out of this thread if I come up with the best answer. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

We need a better name for that build.

Simon the Warblade?

Our Weapon Drill will pierce the heavens!

[Acanous]

I am going to keep posting this when people ask for how to use charisma in a melee build until someone actually plays it.

This was awesome and I want to play it so bad.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I am going to keep posting this when people ask for how to use charisma in a melee build until someone actually plays it.

Oh.

Egg, meet face. :smallbiggrin:

[Crasical]

I don't know who NeoSeraphi was referencing, who came up with the build originally
:smallfurious:


Simon the Warblade?

Our Weapon Drill will pierce the heavens!
I like that.


Oh.

Egg, meet face. :smallbiggrin:
Technically the hard part of the trick (The ring of Undersong letting you use Perform for Diamond Mind maneuvers) wasn't my idea, but the thread that originated the idea seems to have dropped off the face of the internet, and the original poster was anonymous, so


EDIT: Back on topic, I really do recommend getting Mettle and (a ring of) Evasion at some point if you use the Perform trick. Having sky-high saves using the replacers isn't as cool if you still take half damage on a successful save.

[Jigokuro]

EDIT: Back on topic, I really do recommend getting Mettle and (a ring of) Evasion at some point if you use the Perform trick. Having sky-high saves using the replacers isn't as cool if you still take half damage on a successful save.

Ring of Evasion? how does that work and where can I get it? 8D

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It took some searching, but Undersong is in Champions of Ruin. It's a Bard 1 Transmutation that lasts 1 minute/level, so a continual effect item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) of that at caster level 1 should only be 4,000 gp. You could add it to an existing item for a 50% markup, so a Ring of Evasion and Undersong would be 31,000 gp.

Keep in mind that a Ring of Evasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion) (DMG) grants the Rogue class feature, which doesn't work in medium or heavy armor.

[Jigokuro]

(DMG)

Well I feel like an idiot.

I still think it might be good to dip Chaos monk 2 to then later PrC out of Warblade to Master of Nine, that class is just so good (I think?).

[Lonely Tylenol]

:smallfurious:

Hey hey hey! No mean to offend. I'm just saying that the post NeoSeraphi made indicated that somebody else came up with the idea, but he couldn't remember who told it to him. It was the first (and only) thing I had seen on the matter, though.


EDIT: Back on topic, I really do recommend getting Mettle and (a ring of) Evasion at some point if you use the Perform trick. Having sky-high saves using the replacers isn't as cool if you still take half damage on a successful save.

Yes, and I've been wondering about that: can anybody think of an easier way to get Mettle than Hexblade 3? I know there are PrCs that grant Mettle, but I don't know what they are and at what level they come in.

Otherwise, three levels is pretty intensive, and it rips away all the spare levels of the ideal build (by taking away literally anything that isn't necessary, and focusing on Warblade for the late game instead of some PrC, which I guess works here). On the other hand, the trick in its entirety can come online by level 7 if you have access to a Ring of Evasion through any means (as your IL would be 5 at the tail end of, say, Fighter 1/Hexblade 3/Warblade 3 for our friend the original poster), even if it is a little level-intensive (and basically means no CHA to saves as per Paladin, although if you're already making Weapon Drill checks, then CHA to saves is superfluous).

I just really, really want this trick to work with Mettle in E6.


It took some searching, but Undersong is in Champions of Ruin. It's a Bard 1 Transmutation that lasts 1 minute/level, so a continual effect item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) of that at caster level 1 should only be 4,000 gp. You could add it to an existing item for a 50% markup, so a Ring of Evasion and Undersong would be 31,000 gp.

I'm not sure if this affects your pricing at all, but Undersong is 10 min/level as per the Spell Compendium version (which has an identical effect, but longer duration). :smallbiggrin:

[Crasical]

Hey hey hey! No mean to offend. I'm just saying that the post NeoSeraphi made indicated that somebody else came up with the idea, but he couldn't remember who told it to him. It was the first (and only) thing I had seen on the matter, though.

Heh, It's cool. :smallsmile:



Yes, and I've been wondering about that: can anybody think of an easier way to get Mettle than Hexblade 3? I know there are PrCs that grant Mettle, but I don't know what they are and at what level they come in.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8553052&postcount=3).


EDIT: Re: Monk Dipping, I'm not sure, but I believe you can use Maneuvers with an unarmed strike. So with Insightful Strike, you could be doing 1d20+cha+Perform Ranks+1/2 bab damage with a single punch. So not only are you a master swordsman, you are also a deadly martial artist.


EDIT2: Warblade 5/Pious Templar 1 fits in e6 and has mettle. Of course since Forge Ring has CR12 as a prerequisite, Rings of Evasion don't exist, though I suppose you could get an Amulet of Undersong made instead.

[Lonely Tylenol]

There we are! Pious Templar.

How's this for a build?

Fighter 2/Paladin of Freedom 2/Warblade 1/Pious Templar 1/Marshal 1/Warblade 2-X

Progression:
{table=head]
ECL|Class|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Feat|Special|Maneuvers |Stances
1|Fighter 1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Cosmopolitan (Iaijutsu Focus)|Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (bonus feat)|---|---
2|Fighter 2|+2|+3|+0|+0|---|Power Attack (bonus feat)*|---|---
3|Paladin of Freedom 1|+3|+5|+0|+0|True Believer|Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day|---|---
4|Paladin of Freedom 2|+4|+6|+0|+0|---|Divine grace, lay on hands|---|---
5|Warblade 1|+5|+8|+0|+0|---|Battle clarity (reflex saves), weapon aptitude|Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Wall of Blades|Punishing Stance
6|Pious Templar 1**|+6/+1|+10|+0|+2|Leap Attack|Mettle, spells|---|---
7|Marshal 1|+6/+1|+12|+0|+4|---|Skill Focus (Diplomacy), minor aura (Motivate Dexterity)|---|---
8|Warblade 2|+7/+2|+13|+0|+4|---|Uncanny dodge|Insightful Strike|---
9|Warblade 3|+8/+3|+13|+1|+5|Improved Bull Rush*|Battle ardor (critical confirmation)|Iron Heart Surge|---
10|Warblade 4|+9/+4|+14|+1|+5|---|---|---|Absolute Steel Stance
11|Warblade 5|+10/+5|+14|+1|+5|---|Improved Initiative (bonus feat)|Ruby Nightmare Blade|---
12|Warblade 6|+11/+6/+1|+15|+2|+6|Shock Trooper*|Improved Uncanny Dodge|---|---
13|Warblade 7|+12/+7/+2|+15|+2|+6|---|Battle cunning (damage)|Lightning Recovery|---
14|Warblade 8|+13/+8/+3|+16|+2|+6|---|---|---|---
15|Warblade 9|+14/+9/+4|+16|+3|+7|Flick of the Wrist|Quick Draw (bonus feat)|Greater Insightful Strike (retrain Insightful Strike into Moment of Alacrity)|---
16|Warblade 10|+15/+10/+5|+17|+3|+7|---|---|---|Dancing Blade Form
17|Warblade 11|+16/+11/+6/+1|+17|+3|+7|---|Battle skill (opposed checks)|Avalanche of Blades (retrain Wall of Blades into Manticore Parry)|---
18|Warblade 12|+17/+12/+7/+2|+18|+4|+8|Martial Study (Adamantine Hurricane)|---|---|---
19|Warblade 13|+18/+13/+8/+3|+18|+4|+8|---|Combat Reflexes (bonus feat)|Diamond Nightmare Blade (retrain Greater Insightful Strike into Diamond Defense)|---
20|Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1**|+19/+14/+9/+4|+19|+4|+9|---|Pounce, whirling frenzy 1/day, illiteracy :smalltongue:|---|---[/table]

*If you are a Human with the Fire-Souled template, take Power Attack at level 1, Improved Bull Rush at level 2, and Shock Trooper at level 9.
**If Mettle isn't your thing, do the Whirling Frenzy shtick at level 6 instead of level 20. It's just filler at the end, but it's nasty if you were to have access to it in the mid levels. Heck, if you're Human, bump this level up to level 2, switch Power Attack to your Human bonus, and go to town. You can then either keep Pious Templar at 6 for Mettle, or take that second level of Fighter for the feat you lost.

Or, if you want Master of Nine, try the following:

Fighter 1/Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian/Paladin of Freedom 2/Warblade 1/Marshal 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Warblade 2-3/Master of Nine 5

{table=head]
ECL|Class|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Feat|Special|Maneuvers |Stances
1|Fighter 1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Dodge|Power Attack (bonus feat)|---|---
2|Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian|+2|+4|+0|+0|---|Pounce, whirling frenzy 1/day|---|---
3|Paladin of Freedom 1|+3|+6|+0|+0|Improved Initiative|Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day|---|---
4|Paladin of Freedom 2|+4|+7|+0|+0|---|Divine grace, lay on hands|---|---
5|Warblade 1|+5|+9|+0|+0|---|Battle clarity (reflex saves), weapon aptitude|Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Wall of Blades|Punishing Stance
6|Unarmed Variant Swordsage 1|+5|+9|+2|+2|Adaptive Style|Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus feat), quick to act +1, discipline focus (Weapon Focus)|Burning Blade, Baffling Defense, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer, Rabid Wolf Strike, Cloak of Deception|Island of Blades
7|Marshal 1|+5|+11|+2|+4|---|Skill Focus (Diplomacy), minor aura (Motivate Dexterity)|---|---
8|Warblade 2|+6/+1|+12|+2|+4|---|Uncanny dodge|Insightful Strike|---
9|Warblade 3|+7/+2|+12|+3|+5|Blind-Fight|Battle ardor (critical confirmation)|Iron Heart Surge|---
10|Swordsage 2|+8/+3|+12|+4|+6|---|AC bonus|Bonecrusher|Assassin's Stance
11|Master of Nine 1|+8/+3|+12|+4|+8|---|---|Ruby Nightmare Blade, Obscuring Shadow Veil (retrain Baffling Defense into Foehammer)|---
12|Master of Nine 2|+9/+4|+12|+4|+9|Martial Study (Searing Charge)|Dual Stance|Divine Surge (retrain Burning Blade to Searing Blade)|Thicket of Blades
13|Master of Nine 3|+10/+5|+13|+5|+9|---|Perfect Form|Elder Mountain Hammer, Shadow Stride (retrain Shadow Step into Radiant Charge)|---
14|Master of Nine 4|+11/+6/+1|+13|+5|+10|---|Counter Stance|Rapid Counter, or... Something (retrain Mountain Hammer into Overwhelming Mountain Strike)|Hearing the Air
15|Master of Nine 5|+11/+6/+1|+13|+5|+10|Martial Study (Manticore Parry)|Mastery of Nine|Rallying Strike, Greater Insightful Strike (retrain Insightful Strike into Moment of Alacrity)|---
16|Warblade 4|+12/+17/+2|+14|+5|+10|---|---|---|Dancing Blade Form
17|Warblade 5|+13/+8/+3|+14|+5|+10|---|Quick Draw (bonus feat)|Avalanche of Blades (retrain Wall of Blades into Shadow Blink)|---
18|Warblade 6|+14/+9/+4|+15|+6|+11|Martial Study (Diamond Nightmare Blade)|---|---|---
19|Warblade 7|+15/+10/+5|+15|+6|+11|---|Battle Cunning (damage)|Ancient Mountain Hammer (retrain Shadow Step into Adamantine Hurricane)|---
20|Bloodstorm Blade 1|+16/+11/+6/+1|+17|+6|+11|---|Returning attacks, throw anything, martial aptitude|---|---[/table]

*NOTE: I ONLY recommend this if you're human, so there is a human bonus feat to be had, here (I didn't include it, though).

The latter build is probably an ABSOLUTE mess, so if somebody else can tell me all the things I did wrong (urgh, stepladdering with Master of the Nine is such a pain), I will fix them. :smallsmile:

EDIT:


EDIT2: Warblade 5/Pious Templar 1 fits in e6 and has mettle. Of course since Forge Ring has CR12 as a prerequisite, Rings of Evasion don't exist, though I suppose you could get an Amulet of Undersong made instead.

E6 has rules just for that (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Rules#Spells):


Forge Ring [Item Creation]
Change caster level requirement from 12th to 6th.

[Coidzor]

Is weapon focus(greatsword) a prerequisite feat for Pious Templar?

And does Paladin's CHA to saves survive the transit from save to concentration check via maneuver to perform check via undersong? :smallconfused: Or is that just for if one gets hit before the maneuver is refreshed?

[Crasical]

Is weapon focus(greatsword) a prerequisite feat for Pious Templar?

And does Paladin's CHA to saves survive the transit from save to concentration check via maneuver to perform check via undersong? :smallconfused: Or is that just for if one gets hit before the maneuver is refreshed?

Weapon focus (Diety's favored weapon) Is a prerequisite feat, and no the cha-to-saves doesn't survive. I would assume that it's for hits taken before refresh and Fortitude saves, since this build doesn't have Mind over Body.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Is weapon focus(greatsword) a prerequisite feat for Pious Templar?

And does Paladin's CHA to saves survive the transit from save to concentration check via maneuver to perform check via undersong? :smallconfused: Or is that just for if one gets hit before the maneuver is refreshed?

Weapon Focus (chosen deity's favored weapon). It just so happens that his deity is Kord, whose favored weapon is the greatsword.

It's for if one gets hit before the maneuver is refreshed. Unless you are taking exclusively counters, you are going to have turns that you aren't capable of recovering maneuvers. You are using your Perform (Weapon Drill) check in place of all existing modifiers, so the CHA to saves doesn't translate over (although it's worth noting that your Fort save is so inordinately high due to the CHA to saves and all the mutli-classing that I didn't even bother with Mind Over Body as a consequence).


Weapon focus (Diety's favored weapon) Is a prerequisite feat, and no the cha-to-saves doesn't survive. I would assume that it's for hits taken before refresh and Fortitude saves, since this build doesn't have Mind over Body.

Er... Yeah. All of this.

Ninja'd by seventeen minutes. Embarrassing. :smallwink:

[Crasical]

Ninja'd by seventeen minutes. Embarrassing. :smallwink:

Two Hundred Yojana in One Slash, baby. :smallcool:

[Metahuman1]

I am going to keep posting this when people ask for how to use charisma in a melee build until someone actually plays it.

It almost happened except the DM I was trying to get the character into the game with decided it was too powerful a build. So I just had to go with a bog standard out of the box crusader.

But the next game my IRL group runs, if I'm not DMing, I do intend to run this trick in a build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that certain feats, Weapon Focus included, grant you a cumulative +2 bonus on Perform: Weapon Drill checks.


You could do an Idiot Crusader trick with Master of Nine and at 9th level you'll have all three save-counters available to use every single round. You could even throw on Stance of Alacrity later on to use any two of those three every round. Go something like Fighter 1/ (Unarmed) Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Pious Templar 1/ Master of Nine 2. Your only Crusader maneuvers known would be Crusader's Strike and Vanguard Strike, then add the three save-counters via Master of Nine. With Extra Granted Maneuver at 6th level your maneuvers readied/granted would be 5 (2) with 2 known at Crusader 1, 6 (4) with 4 known at Mo9 1, and 7 (5) with 5 known at Mo9 2.

It's absolutely necessary to pick your maneuvers right if you use the above build. You cannot pick any of the three save-counter maneuvers until you hit Master of Nine, since you can only learn a given maneuver once. You absolutely have to pick both of the 1st level Stone Dragon maneuvers for Swordsage 1, and both of the 1st level White Raven maneuvers for Warblade 1, so that there will only be two maneuvers available for you to learn at Crusader 1. If you fail in any of that, then the trick won't work and you'll end up with a lackluster multiclass build.

[Voyager_I]

Partial Save Progression needs to be a core rule...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Partial Save Progression needs to be a core rule...

But then I can't go Monk 2/Favored Soul 2/Paladin 2 for +6+CHA mod+relevant stat mod to all saves by level 6 (+an extra 3 to Fort), and be useful at nothing else. :smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

Tanking saving throws becomes a huge part of the game in later levels, though. I'd say being able to say "yes" to saving throws and still have Initiator levels to work with is a pretty big deal.

[Urpriest]

But then I can't go Monk 2/Favored Soul 2/Paladin 2 for +6+CHA mod+relevant stat mod to all saves by level 6 (+an extra 3 to Fort), and be useful at nothing else. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, you can. Partial Saves still includes the +2 from each class.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Actually, you can. Partial Saves still includes the +2 from each class.

But only once, correct?

My understanding was that partial save progression only used the +2 bonus of any given class once for each save. For example, if a ranger 1 (+2 Fort, +2 Ref) were to multiclass into a bard (+2 Ref, +2 Will), it would get the +2 Fort and +2 Ref of the ranger 1, and the +2 Will of the bard 1, but not the +2 Ref of bard 1, because that effect was already in place as per ranger 1. (It would, however, get the 1/2 save progression of ranger and bard, times two levels, for a total of 1.) The result is a character with 2.833 Fort, 3 Ref, and 2.833 Will.

Or am I way off base here, and the +2 bonuses stack each time, making the save bonuses of a bard 1/ranger 1 2.833 Fort, 5 Ref, 2.833 Will?

I confess I am not well-versed on the variant rules.

[Urpriest]

But only once, correct?

My understanding was that partial save progression only used the +2 bonus of any given class once for each save. For example, if a ranger 1 (+2 Fort, +2 Ref) were to multiclass into a bard (+2 Ref, +2 Will), it would get the +2 Fort and +2 Ref of the ranger 1, and the +2 Will of the bard 1, but not the +2 Ref of bard 1, because that effect was already in place as per ranger 1. (It would, however, get the 1/2 save progression of ranger and bard, times two levels, for a total of 1.) The result is a character with 2.833 Fort, 3 Ref, and 2.833 Will.

Or am I way off base here, and the +2 bonuses stack each time, making the save bonuses of a bard 1/ranger 1 2.833 Fort, 5 Ref, 2.833 Will?

I confess I am not well-versed on the variant rules.

The +2 bonuses stack each time. The book even describes a variant of the variant in which they do not, which pretty explicitly shows that by default they do.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The +2 bonuses stack each time. The book even describes a variant of the variant in which they do not, which pretty explicitly shows that by default they do.

Yeah, I just found the variant listed (Unearthed Arcana p. 73, for those interested), and it has the stats of a 5th-level Cleric/2nd-level Fighter totaling up to +7 Fort, which could only be possible if the +2 to base save from both classes was being added.

I must have been remembering it wrong.

[Coidzor]

The +2 bonuses stack each time. The book even describes a variant of the variant in which they do not, which pretty explicitly shows that by default they do.

...So this is really embarrassing, but I can't seem to find the partial save or partial BAB rules. :smallredface: Where are they again? I'd've sworn I'd seen them on the SRD but can't find them now. :smallconfused:

[Lonely Tylenol]

...So this is really embarrassing, but I can't seem to find the partial save or partial BAB rules. :smallredface: Where are they again? I'd've sworn I'd seen them on the SRD but can't find them now. :smallconfused:

I already gave the page number (minor ninja; UA p. 73), but I couldn't find it on the SRD either. I think that might be because it was only ever even a sidebar in UA.

[Rejakor]

Fighter 5/Beguiler 1/Prestige Bard X/Sublime Chord 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/full casting PrC X

sanctum and earth spell to taste, you are now a gish, congratulations.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Fighter 5/Beguiler 1/Prestige Bard X/Sublime Chord 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/full casting PrC X

sanctum and earth spell to taste, you are now a gish, congratulations.

Why Fighter 5? 5th is a dead level (unless you're using the Zhentarim variant?). Unless I'm wrong, you should be able to replace the 5th level of Fighter with a 2nd of Beguiler, then advance as usual.

Also, since you get your BAB +5 early on, you can add that sixth level of Abjurant Champion (Spellsword 1) to the rear end of it, and get all the AbC abilities a level sooner. :smallbiggrin:

[Jigokuro]

What is a "(unarmed) swordsage" and how is it different than a swordsage to the point of being a different class entirely? (someone said a level of each in a build iirc)

[Voyager_I]

What is a "(unarmed) swordsage" and how is it different than a swordsage to the point of being a different class entirely? (someone said a level of each in a build iirc)

Unarmed Swordsages are what Monks want to be when they grow up.


As for Partial Saves Progression; Good saves start at 2 and advance at +1/2 per level, while bad saves just advance at +1/3 per level. Multiclassing with a new good save can get you the +2 bonus, but you can't get it for the same save twice.


Example:

A level 5 Fighter has Fort 4 1/2, Ref 1 2/3, and Will 1 2/3. This counts as +4/+1/+1. He decides not to stick it out for that last bonus feat and multiclasses to Marshal, which has good Fort and Will saves. He gets a +2 bonus on Will in addition to the normal progression, but Fort just goes up by 1/2 because he already got the boost from Fighter.

His updated saves are Fort 5, Ref 2, and Will 4 1/6, which counts as +5/+2/+4.

Note that the +2 boost does not replace your regular 1/2 per level; you get both.



If that's too much math, just stick with characters that have +6/+4/+6 saves and +1 BAB :smalltongue:

[Jigokuro]

Unarmed Swordsages are what Monks want to be when they grow up.


As for Partial Saves Progression; Good saves start at 2 and advance at +1/2 per level, while bad saves just advance at +1/3 per level. Multiclassing with a new good save can get you the +2 bonus, but you can't get it for the same save twice.


Example:

A level 5 Fighter has Fort 4 1/2, Ref 1 2/3, and Will 1 2/3. This counts as +4/+1/+1. He decides not to stick it out for that last bonus feat and multiclasses to Marshal, which has good Fort and Will saves. He gets a +2 bonus on Will in addition to the normal progression, but Fort just goes up by 1/2 because he already got the boost from Fighter.

His updated saves are Fort 5, Ref 2, and Will 4 1/6, which counts as +5/+2/+4.

Note that the +2 boost does not replace your regular 1/2 per level; you get both.



If that's too much math, just stick with characters that have +6/+4/+6 saves and +1 BAB :smalltongue:

Ok, 2 things:
1) saying unarmed SS is good doesn't help me with what it actually is or where I can find it in he least, and
2) you are wrong about the +2 saves not stacking (even if it sounds fair), as the book shows that they do plain as day: in their example Fighter 5/Cleric2 has Fort 7.5, not 5.5. There is never mention of the partial goods being .5/lvl with +2 at lvl 1, just a chart showing 2.5/3/3.5/4 etc.
:smallannoyed:

[Crasical]

Ok, 2 things:
1) saying unarmed SS is good doesn't help me with what it actually is or where I can find it in he least, and
2) you are wrong about the +2 saves not stacking (even if it sounds fair), as the book shows that they do plain as day: in their example Fighter 5/Cleric2 has Fort 7.5, not 5.5. There is never mention of the partial goods being .5/lvl with +2 at lvl 1, just a chart showing 2.5/3/3.5/4 etc.
:smallannoyed:

Unarmed swordsage is a suggested adaptation of the Swordsage class on page 20, removing the light armor proficiency in exchange for a monk's Unarmed Strike progression.

[Jigokuro]

Unarmed swordsage is a suggested adaptation of the Swordsage class on page 20, removing the light armor proficiency in exchange for a monk's Unarmed Strike progression.

I see, thanks. A question though, if it is just the damage dice progression why would 1 level dip be good? just to get 1d4 -> 1d6 in the rare events you're weaponless?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I see, thanks. A question though, if it is just the damage dice progression why would 1 level dip be good? just to get 1d4 -> 1d6 in the rare events you're weaponless?

You also get the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free, which is a prerequisite for quite a few things, including Master of Nine and Ascetic Mage.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I see, thanks. A question though, if it is just the damage dice progression why would 1 level dip be good? just to get 1d4 -> 1d6 in the rare events you're weaponless?

Er, 1d3 -> 1d6.

There's no reason not to take it if you're multiclassing into it from a class with armor proficiency, since it just removes the proficiency. Of course, this is by RAW, which also doesn't give you the monk's unarmed strike class feature despite that obviously being what makes sense, has swordsages (unarmed or not) getting x6 skill points at first level, and makes it that their wis to AC only functions in light armor, not unarmored.

[Jigokuro]

Oh, how does Iaijutsu officially work in 3.5? the SRD has nothing and the only thing I know about it is from 3.0 I think.

[Urpriest]

Oh, how does Iaijutsu officially work in 3.5? the SRD has nothing and the only thing I know about it is from 3.0 I think.

It's unupdated, so it works the same way it did in 3.0.