Why is Time Stop a Transmutation Spell?

[JKTrickster]

I was looking over the Transmutation spell list, and I came across a very interesting notion. A lot of the spells that mess with time seem to come from transmutation.

Time Stop
Haste
Slow

Now the fluff behind these spells are increasing the speed of the person - you're not actually affecting time at all. But wait -

Celerity, Lesser
Celerity
Celerity, Greater

These spells specifically mess with time. It's not even you move so fast you get dazed for a while. You literally steal slices of time from the future to use now.

What? How does these spells fit into the Transmutation school at all :smallconfused:

[hymer]

According to Rules Compendium (p. 122) "Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, object, or condition."
Altering (aka. changing) time means altering temporal conditions, or the temporal properties of the affected target. Chronomancy, if you will, falls squarely inside the school of transmutation.

Edited for clarity

[gomipile]

I suppose "transmuting time" makes as much sense as any other example of "a wizard did it."

[GolemsVoice]

Maybe the wizard is altering the target by altering the way time affects it?

[Radar]

Well... any other school would make even less sense. Schools in D&D aren't that well defined anyway.

[Psyren]

Time Stop doesn't alter time; it instead makes the caster so fast that it appears that time has stopped. Hence transmutation:

This - It's been refluffed to "super-haste." I think it may have actually stopped time in... 2e?... but it doesn't now.

[JKTrickster]

According to Rules Compendium (p. 122) "Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, object, or condition."
Altering (aka. changing) time means altering temporal conditions, or the temporal properties of the affected target. Chronomancy, if you will, falls squarely inside the school of transmutation.

Edited for clarity

That's....broad :smalleek:

How isn't any spell within Transmutation then :smalltongue:

But wow so Chronomancy should naturally fall within Transmutation?


As an off shot do you feel that the schools should be redefined?

[Ryulin18]

Now this is merely theory built off of a science class I had 8 years ago, But a time spell could be Abjuration

Create a shield dense and powerful enough and you could, in most ways, remove yourself from space and time. Steven hawking said it would take an almost infinite amount of power and either 10/20 black holes...But this is D&D.

Also it would on work as a fast forward or pause button because of singularity effects. You would enter it and when the spell deteriorates, you would either be in the future or present because the world would have remained with you encased or the world would seem to stop whilst you were encased...OH GOD MY BRAIN!

[Psyren]

If you were actually messing with time I'd say Evocation. But most spells that alter the action economy do it by altering your perception of time, rather than time itself - hence Transmutation.

[Venger]

because all the good spells have to be in transmutation, of course :smallbiggrin:

seriously though, I have no idea. why did teleport used to be transmutation? the other schools have rather clear definitions:
abjuration: force effects that don't deal damage/protection/anything that lets you say "no" when a spell is cast against you
conjuration: summoning/teleportation/orb of x
divination: spying/reading the dm's notes/ true strike
enchantment: mind control
evocation: hit point damage with saves
illusion: will disbelieve things that aren't there
necromancy: death effects/ability damage or drain

transmutation: literally anything that does not fall within one of these categories

[hymer]

@ JKTrickster: Yes, pretty much anything can be transmutation by that definition. And conjuration (cause whatever you need to exist), and evocation (matter=energy after all, making it the same as conjuration), and divination (use it to know how to make things the way you want them to be)... Just apply enough imagination.
Should they be redefined? Like alignments, they don't stand up to any sort of rigorous scrutiny or critical analysis. But neither does the rest of the game, so I don't think it's necesarry. Live and let live, play and have fun, shrug and move on.
Except one thing: Why, oh why, did they invent the Orb of X spells? Those should be evocation! That bothers me no end.

[Necroticplague]

Except one thing: Why, oh why, did they invent the Orb of X spells? Those should be evocation! That bothers me no end.

Two reasons:
1. Their school makes sense. They create something , and launch it at an opponent. Falls so squarely within the realm of conjuration it's not funny.
2.Evocation shouldn't have nice things.

[hymer]

1: I don't deny that. As mentioned, most schools could have something doing the same thing with enough application of fluff.
2: There are just so few worthwhile spells in evocation, and now the best single-target blasting spells go to conjuration, already a powerful and highly versatile school? When evocation is supposed to be the blasting school? My friend, it is to weep.
I guess I should count my blessings. At least it's still a no-brainer to select the first barred school.

[JKTrickster]

Except....it doesn't. How do you create an orb of cold? :smallconfused:

Actually I want to redefine some of the schools. That was actually the originating point behind my "looking at the Transmutation school".

I'm a big fan of "Let's make School Based spellcasters!". But obviously this is nearly impossible under the current system. None of the schools were really meant to stand alone. Even many of the specialized spel casters like Dread Necromancer and Beguiler borrow spells from other schools.

Is this a problem? Perhaps one can regroup a limited selection of spells into 8 new schools, while placing limitations so all 8 schools are perfectly balanced against each other.

[hymer]

How do you want to create it?
Conjuration (creation) obviously creates it, it's what it does. Evocation would do it by summoning cold energy, shaping it into an orb and then launching it at the target. Transmutation would do it by lowering the temperature at the target location suddenly and drastically. Divination would tell you how, by applying a little chaos theory, you'd make a seemingly random orb of cold descend on your unfortunate target. Necromancy would affect the target directly, but only if he was living, draining his body warmth, making him cold, numbing his brain so he can't see properly. Illusion is more in trouble even than necromancy, as it'll need to convince the target he's the target of an Orb of Cold. Enchantment is perhaps the most troublesome, it'll need to do something else. Abjuration needs to be a little more reactive than the others, making a magical barrier with this effect if someone tries to attack you.
I think that was all of them. Most of them can be justified as easily as what's in the books can.

[Calanon]

Except....it doesn't. How do you create an orb of cold? :smallconfused:

Actually I want to redefine some of the schools. That was actually the originating point behind my "looking at the Transmutation school".

I'm a big fan of "Let's make School Based spellcasters!". But obviously this is nearly impossible under the current system. None of the schools were really meant to stand alone. Even many of the specialized spel casters like Dread Necromancer and Beguiler borrow spells from other schools.

Is this a problem? Perhaps one can regroup a limited selection of spells into 8 new schools, while placing limitations so all 8 schools are perfectly balanced against each other.

Oh you! to do that Divination would need attacks and better tactical applications besides Scrying for someone and rushing in and killing them :smalltongue:

HOWEVER! I have never taken a true look at the Divination school so my 2cp are worth more about... .5cp :smallredface:

[Tryxx]

If you were actually messing with time I'd say Evocation. But most spells that alter the action economy do it by altering your perception of time, rather than time itself - hence Transmutation.

I'd like to point that the various time spells in the "Dragonlance - Legend of the Twins" book do exactly this. Frozen Moment is Evocation, all the spells for seeing through time are Divination, those that change the body are Transmutation, and there's the nice shield, Temporal Sphere that's Abjuration.

In other words - I agree.

I've always kind of wondered why I haven't heard of these spells being refluffed to broaden the aspect of chronomancy in the other various settings.

[Rhatahema]

I feel that Teleportation and Time magic should belong in the same school, if you dig Spacetime.

[Rubik]

I like the way psionics groups things. Instead of grouping the schools by cause, it groups it by effect. Much less of a headache.

Though there are a few cases that are borderline (such as Wall of Energy), generally it's fairly clear-cut.

Group spells in the same kind of way and you should be good.

[Hiro Protagonest]

1: I don't deny that. As mentioned, most schools could have something doing the same thing with enough application of fluff.
2: There are just so few worthwhile spells in evocation, and now the best single-target blasting spells go to conjuration, already a powerful and highly versatile school? When evocation is supposed to be the blasting school? My friend, it is to weep.
I guess I should count my blessings. At least it's still a no-brainer to select the first barred school.
Hey, unless you have Spell Versatility (transmuter variant replacing bonus feats), it can be a good idea to keep Evocation. Fireball is pretty good if you don't face fire giants, or red dragons, or anything from the plane of fire, and then you can just take Energy Substitution to make a Coldball or Lightingball, and Wall of Force is good, and the Hand line is decent. You can ban Necromancy and Enchantment instead.

Except....it doesn't. How do you create an orb of cold? :smallconfused:

You take some pure ice from the elemental plane of water (or the quasi-elemental plane of ice, if you have that in your game).

[Kalmageddon]

Many of the various schools of magic in D&D makes any sense at all.

Transmutation is described in such a way that it could very well have all the spells into its school.

Necromancy is in direct conflict with Cojuration, since both schools are supposed to be able to manipulate energies from the negative energy plane and the positive energy one.

Speaking of Conjuration it should contain all Evocation and Illusion spells, both of these spells use elemental forces or even the matter itself of some planes of existance, if I recall correctly most of the Illusion spells actually use small fragments of the plane of shadows, also Necromancy is already half inside Conjuration.

So no surprise if some spells look like they don't belong inside a certain school.

[Venger]

Oh you! to do that Divination would need attacks and better tactical applications besides Scrying for someone and rushing in and killing them :smalltongue:

HOWEVER! I have never taken a true look at the Divination school so my 2cp are worth more about... .5cp :smallredface:

well, yeah. though you haven't read all the divination spells (there aren't many) you are right in their failure to provide either hp damage, ability damage SoSs, or SoDs.

they are vaguely useful if your DM is the type to prepare material ahead of time and write info about NPCs and plots for you to actually divine, otherwise the whole school (true strike exempted, of course) is essentially completely worthless.

making up some new divination spells would be sort of cool, or providing more along the lines (fluff and mechanically) of "healer's vision" (which doesn't directly hamper your enemy in any way) would make that pretty cool and would make it suck a lot less that you couldn't ban divination. (really wish you could, never used a divination spell in 4 years of playtime)

[Necroticplague]

Hey, unless you have Spell Versatility (transmuter variant replacing bonus feats), it can be a good idea to keep Evocation. Fireball is pretty good if you don't face fire giants, or red dragons, or anything from the plane of fire, and then you can just take Energy Substitution to make a Coldball or Lightingball, and Wall of Force is good, and the Hand line is decent. You can ban Necromancy and Enchantment instead.

And the entire thing can be replaced with one spell, if you really feel the need for those. Banning evocation and enchantment is my go-to.

[Yuki Akuma]

Except....it doesn't. How do you create an orb of cold? :smallconfused:

You can't, of course. That's physically impossible. Maybe the spell descriptions can help us?


This spell functions like orb of acid, except that it deals cold damage. In addition, a creature struck by an orb of cold must make a Fortitude save or be blinded for 1 round instead of being sickened.

Huh. Well, let's check Orb of Acid, then.


An orb of acid about 2 inches across shoots from your palm at its target, dealing 1d8 points of acid damage. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target.

Well, there you have it. Orb of Cold doesn't create a ball of cold. It creates a ball of acid which inexplicably deals cold damage. :smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

http://cdn2.hark.com/images/000/003/974/3974/original.jpg
Time stop doesn't work that way!

Time Stop is a World Enlarger (http://www.wowhead.com/item=18660), its name is only based on the target's perception of what happens under the most exaggerated presumptions. The World Enlarger only shrinks the target, but by his perception the rest of the world gets bigger. Similarly, Time Stop speeds up the caster so much that by his perception everything else appears to stand still for that time. It would be like renaming Enlarge Person to Shrink Universe, because that's what the target perceives.

Haste, Slow, Time Stop, etc. directly affect how fast the target moves. Speeding up a creature or slowing down a creature fits the description of a Transmutation perfectly.

[Hiro Protagonest]

And the entire thing can be replaced with one spell, if you really feel the need for those. Banning evocation and enchantment is my go-to.

Ah, yes, Shadow Evocation and Greater. It does require the enemy to have a low will save, though, so if the barbarian takes Steadfast Determination to use his constitution, and is raging for the extra dd, or the paladin takes Serenity, and really pumps his wisdom (an archer paladin with Zen Archer gets wisdom to attack rolls and all saving throws, and will saves twice), it's not much use, and spellcasters get good will saves, and rogues get Slippery Mind, and factotums get Cunning Inspiration, and swordsages get good will saves and Moment of Perfect Mind, and crusaders can get Steadfast Determination on top of charisma to will saves (although that really doesn't matter much unless you're going for an intimidation build by multiclassing into zhent fighter) and Mettle, hexblades get good will saves and Mettle and that bonus against spells.

Okay, that's more than enough. Point is, will saves are the easiest saves to boost.

[Yuki Akuma]

Save DCs aren't hard to boost either, though.

Alternatively, just be a Killer Gnome and bank on them succeeding on the Will saves... :smallamused:

[JKTrickster]

Hmm why do you guys feel that Time Magic should be Evocation?

What if it fell under Divination?

[Venger]

Hmm why do you guys feel that Time Magic should be Evocation?

What if it fell under Divination?

divination probably isn't the best place to put it. that way, even focused specialist red wizards of thay would be able to cast it. and giving specialist wizards more things to make them more powerful is bad.

I think abjuration makes more sense. the same way stoneskin protects you from knives and bombs and stuff, and under time stop here:


other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

invulnerability sounds like abjuration to me. abjuration's sort of a ****ty school anyway, so it's reasonable that one might expect the uber-specialised wizards who are only drawing from 4 schools might not have access to it. it makes more sense than making it effectively universal (since you're tragically not allowed to ban divination

[Tenno Seremel]

As is Time Stop protects nothing. It inhibits things you yourself can do instead.

Range: Personal.
Target: You.

[Venger]

As is Time Stop protects nothing. It inhibits things you yourself can do instead.

Range: Personal.
Target: You.

yes it does, it protects everybody except you. they're invulnerable to all attacks. sounds like protection to me.

[Tenno Seremel]

yes it does, it protects everybody except you. they're invulnerable to all attacks. sounds like protection to me.
So… when I cast a spell that paralyzes my opponent it's also protection? Rules lawyering is nice and all but no :}

Also, its target is you. It does not affect anyone but you, so it cannot protect them. That's how spells work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

yes it does, it protects everybody except you. they're invulnerable to all attacks. sounds like protection to me.

It speeds up the caster but also limits what he can do while sped up, it does nothing to directly protect anyone. That's like saying a Calm Emotion spell protects the entire rest of the planet from the creatures you targeted.

Time Stop allows the caster to take several rounds' worth of actions instantaneously, hence its instantaneous duration. Zero time elapses, and during that zero time nobody is protected from anything. The caster has limits to what actions he takes during his imperceptibly fast rounds, but those actions can include disintegrating a bridge you're standing on, and the spell does nothing to protect you from the collateral effects.

[Psyren]

yes it does, it protects everybody except you. they're invulnerable to all attacks. sounds like protection to me.

You can still drop summons, walls, forcecages, spheres, cloudkill etc. on top of the enemy though :smalltongue:

[Venger]

So… when I cast a spell that paralyzes my opponent it's also protection? Rules lawyering is nice and all but no :}

Also, its target is you. It does not affect anyone but you, so it cannot protect them. That's how spells work.

lol. I meant just in response to "what if it were in another school?" of the available options, I thought abjuration made the most sense since whenever you tell the DM to stop playing the game for a few rounds, it's abjuration.



You can still drop summons, walls, forcecages, spheres, cloudkill etc. on top of the enemy though :smalltongue:

and you should! time stop is sort of disappointing ever since the celerity chain. my favorite thing to do in timestop is still translocation trick. the look on his (or rather your) face is priceless.

[JKTrickster]

I want to look at it from a mechanical perspective instead. After all my goal is to balance all 8 schools against each other. So I would be taking spells from certain schools, moving other spells around, etc.

After all most people here agree that as long as the fluff requirement is stretched enough, any spell can almost go into any school. So I'll just balance based on effects and strength of the school and set the fluff limits/requirements later.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I want to look at it from a mechanical perspective instead. After all my goal is to balance all 8 schools against each other. So I would be taking spells from certain schools, moving other spells around, etc.

After all most people here agree that as long as the fluff requirement is stretched enough, any spell can almost go into any school. So I'll just balance based on effects and strength of the school and set the fluff limits/requirements later.

It's more than fluff. If you moved the Orbs to Evocation (except the acid ones), then they would have to be SR: Yes or they wouldn't make sense. You have to change mechanics too.

[Rubik]

It's more than fluff. If you moved the Orbs to Evocation (except the acid ones), then they would have to be SR: Yes or they wouldn't make sense. You have to change mechanics too.Just institute a rider-rule where instantaneous [creation] effects are SR: No regardless of school, and make the orbs Evocation [creation].

[Kaeso]

Maybe because time is actually matter on a quantum level, and you use transmutation magic to change that matter?

Look, just don't ask yourself why certain spells are in certain spell schools. That way lies the path of madness, it has taken the minds of men far greater than you and I. :smallsigh:

[CTrees]

According to Rules Compendium (p. 122) "Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, object, or condition."
Altering (aka. changing) time means altering temporal conditions, or the temporal properties of the affected target. Chronomancy, if you will, falls squarely inside the school of transmutation.

Edited for clarity

Conditions?

*ahem*

I IRON HEART SURGE THE TIME STREAM!!!

~~~~~~~~~

*cough* Now that that's out of the way, Time Stop really is fluffed as being a weird sort of super-haste, which makes sense in Transmutation. I get what they were going for with school descriptions, but... once again, the devs' intentions != what they wrote. As far as the more direct alteration of time itself, like Celerity, with their attendant fluff? That's a little stranger... Abjuration or Evocation seem like the reasonable schools, with a distant possibility of divination (mostly for the "feel" of the effect). Pretty sure those were grouped into transmutation for effect, as opposed to cause.

[Necroticplague]

It could also be creation if you're creating more time for yourself (the same reason quintessence is a shaper power, not a nomad power).

[Rubik]

It could also be creation if you're creating more time for yourself (the same reason quintessence is a shaper power, not a nomad power).Well, in psionics the Time Stop equivalent is Psychoportation, which (I guess) would encompass the teleportive abilities from...Conjuration? It's all space and time related stuff.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well, people assume that Transmutation is a sort of school of progressing one thing to another, but from a non-linear, non-subjective point of view, it's more like a big ball of wibbley-wobbley, wizardy-izardy...stuff.

[nightwyrm]

Well, people assume that Transmutation is a sort of school of progressing one thing to another, but from a non-linear, non-subjective point of view, it's more like a big ball of wibbley-wobbley, wizardy-izardy...stuff.

Its 2ed precursor, alteration, was the catch-all bin of schools where everything that doesn't really fit into other schools gets dumped into. Heck, burning hands was alteration in 2ed.

Let's just say the magic schools aren't really thought out due mostly to legacy issues and leave it at that.

[JKTrickster]

Well because it isn't well thought out, it is making it harder to homebrew single school caster classes. Of course, even the Dread Necromancer and the Beguiler borrow from other schools.

What if I worked backwards? Make all 8 classes with corresponding spell lists, balance them against each other, and those spells are now part of that school (and anything not included doesn't exist).

[nightwyrm]

Well because it isn't well thought out, it is making it harder to homebrew single school caster classes. Of course, even the Dread Necromancer and the Beguiler borrow from other schools.

What if I worked backwards? Make all 8 classes with corresponding spell lists, balance them against each other, and those spells are now part of that school (and anything not included doesn't exist).

That would probably work pretty well. Lots of work though.

[JKTrickster]

Anyone wanna help? :smallbiggrin:

I plan on starting on Divination and Abjuration first, since those two would need plenty of additions to balance them out. That way I can take other spells from other schools and bring the schools closer to a balanced medium.

[Voyager_I]

It would be like renaming Enlarge Person to Shrink Universe, because that's what the target perceives

My next Level 1 Wizard is definitely shrinking some universes, just to make the DM freak out for a second.

[Heliomance]

Save DCs aren't hard to boost either, though.

Alternatively, just be a Killer Gnome and bank on them succeeding on the Will saves... :smallamused:

I've been looking around for this, I can't find a resource/guide to optimising save DCs. Caster level yes, DCs no.


It's more than fluff. If you moved the Orbs to Evocation (except the acid ones), then they would have to be SR: Yes or they wouldn't make sense. You have to change mechanics too.

They really should be SR: Yes. There is no justification for giving casters damage output like that that bypasses the very defense that is supposed to protect against it. Those spells render the entire school of Evocation (with the exception of Contingency) obsolete, to an even greater degree than Shadow Evocation does. That's just bad design.