What is your opinion about trapsearching Yukyuk?

[Emulgator]

In the last strip Yukyuk was blastted by traps, after V gave him "the proper mental command". Do you believe that:
a) As Belkar counterpart he has no ranks, or very few ranks in search, therefore he simply activated the traps.
b) He has some ranks in search, or even he maxed them, but Girard made some really really good traps.
c) V didn't give him the proper mental command - he told him to walk onto the traps.
d) V didn't give him the proper mental command, but he wanted to. Unfortunately some mistake made Yukyuk just walk into the traps.
e) YukYuk wants to kill himself, therefore he uesd what little freedom he had to simply go into the traps.

Roy commented that he is just walking up the stairs, therefore option b is less possible, but I woudn't rule it out completely. Maybe he didn't know where the traps started or something.
Anyway I saw different opinions about the subject, so I figured that a new topic may help us agree about what happened.

[Smolder]

In the last strip Yukyuk was blastted by traps, after V gave him "the proper mental command". Do you believe that:
a) As Belkar counterpart he has no ranks, or very few ranks in search, therefore he simply activated the traps.
b) He has some ranks in search, or even he maxed them, but Girard made some really really good traps.
c) V didn't give him the proper mental command - he told him to walk onto the traps.
d) V didn't give him the proper mental command, but he wanted to. Unfortunately some mistake made Yukyuk just walk into the traps.
e) YukYuk wants to kill himself, therefore he uesd what little freedom he had to simply go into the traps.


I think that a, b, c and e are all true.

a) YY has non-optimal search skill
b) Girard has optimal trap-laying skills
c) V could have chosen better commands
e) YY is quasi-consciously trying to disobey

I also believe this belongs in the #840 thread.

:smallsmile:

[cloudland]

I think that a, b, c and e are all true.

a) YY has non-optimal search skill
b) Girard has optimal trap-laying skills
c) V could have chosen better commands
e) YY is quasi-consciously trying to disobey

First, I would like to make a guess on what V did NOT ordered the Yukyuk:
1. It's definitely not "trigger all the trap on the stair". Dominate person can't be used to give obviously self-destructive command, and explicitly mention trap will make it self-destructive command.
2. It's definitely not "search trap in the best way you can". Dominate person give very limited range of activity, this also means you cannot give a command that's too broad and expect it to be carried about.
3. It's definitely not "go on top of the pyramid". Given the fact that the kobold can still hear people talk, pretty sure it does know there is trap, so given some slack on the command, it will try to at least avoid the most obvious way to trigger them, which is walking up the stair.
So I believe V is commanding him to "walk up the stair", and obviously, V expected there to be trap on the stair.
From that, I think we can conclude that Yukyuk's search skill probably not relevance in this picture, nor is Girard trap laying skill.
Roy of course don't know what command V give, but given his face in the last panel, pretty sure he figured out which command did V give Yukyuk.

[silvadel]

A combination of A and C.

I think V gave an order like hurry up and check for traps. IE 20s were certainly NOT taken. Of course the fact that they were decent traps and YYs search skill was sub-par did not help. I certainly do not think it is suicidal tendencies.

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, he's a ranger, not a rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), so I don't really see why he'd be any good at finding traps.

Just because Haley said he must be a rogue doesn't make it so...

[russdm]

I would say that it was result C: V told him to walk up the stairs and mentioned about trap-searching. It allows for Yuk-Yuk to disarm the traps in a way that solves problems. I don't see V having Yuk-Yuk take the time to disarm traps much search for them if the group was on a short time-table which is what is being implied somewhat.

I don't think Either Girard's skills at trap-laying or Yuk-Yuk's skills at finding and disarming traps mattered in this situation or were relevant. There is a problem with your reasoning also because the highest trap search DC is 34, which wouldn't be that hard. Also, Search can used to take 10 or 20 anyway. Also, Search is a skill that a Rogue like haley would keep high anyway, since it is used for more than just trapfinding. It is used to find hidden objects as well as secret doors plus a bunch of other stuff that would require doing more than just glancing around.

[EmperorSarda]

Well, he's a ranger, not a rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), so I don't really see why he'd be any good at finding traps.

Just because Haley said he must be a rogue doesn't make it so...

He has the ability to sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), thus he is a rogue. And Find traps/search is a rogue skill... But you're right about how having at least a level in rogue is not an indication of his search ability.

[Laws of Chaos]

I've literally used this technique in game before, and the kobold I used had no ranks in find traps that I was aware of. If YY has none, it would not surprise me. He probably used all his ranks in other skills to make him more of a killing machine. Just seems like what he would do from what we saw of him per-domination.

[hoff]

You know, I just noticed that Dominate Person has no hit dice limit and lasts for days. What is preventing V (or any other wizard) from dominating a small army of mid-level guys? I mean, if hir use it only on warriors (low will save) it will very rarely fail.

[silvadel]

You know, I just noticed that Dominate Person has no hit dice limit and lasts for days. What is preventing V (or any other wizard) from dominating a small army of mid-level guys? I mean, if hir use it only on warriors (low will save) it will very rarely fail.

That is kind of the way one plays a high level evil mage... You need a horse, polymorph a villager into a horse and whala... Need to scout an area? Polymorph a few into hawks and dominate them. Entering a tomb? Not without 20 innocents in front of you to take the arrows for you.

[darkelf]

f) it was funny to blow up the kobold

[Hironomus]

This is a mystery I would really like to see solved in the next strip.
My immediate thought was that Haley was making an assumption and Yuk Yuk is not actually a rogue at all, or at least not the kind who searches for traps. That to me is the most likely explanation. V gave the mental command, search for and disarm traps to the best of your ability. Yuk Yuk having only taken levels of rogue for sneak attack and having invested zero points into search or disable device obeyed the order as literally as possible.

[martianmister]

I'll go with A...

[Palthera]

I think A, V commanded Yukyuk to search for traps to the best of his ability, Yukyuk has no ranks in search and an ability penalty so he just walks up the stairs. I don't see why V would carelessly throw away a useful tool by not giving an appropriate mental command, that would just be sloppy.

[le Suisse]

V told him to search for traps. Not dodge them or disarm them. So even if he founds some, he just walked throught.

[Omergideon]

I think, based on Roy's comments, YukYuk was asked to simply walk through the traps with neither regard nor care.

Also, since Haley was so celebratory considering the damage done to the Kobold......I'm going with intentional.

So my first thought is c), with b) and e) as possible as well.

Though there is no need to assume Girard can trap especially well. He may be an epic illusionist, but that is no garuntee has traps are particularly potent. Good no doubt, but perhaps nothing exceptional.

[Pheldagriff]

c) all the way
V deemed "let the kobolt walkup the stairs" as the best method of finding the traps and gave the proper instructions.

[Dr.Epic]

Girard was a high level PC. I'm sure any traps he created would be very difficult to detect. Although I'm sure Nale didn't hire Yukyuk for his ability to find traps (or apparently resist mind effects).

[Kgw]

A) and C)

Yukyuk could have made a slight better job if V had given him proper instructions, instead of (probably): "go and do that rogue thing about traps".

[MReav]

I'm beginning to lean toward E. He knows he's not getting out of this any time soon, no one wants to help him, he's got crap Will Saves and the elf can always hit him with another Dominate, and he's going to be subjected to escalating tortures and humiliations. Death is probably his only guaranteed release.

[Jay R]

Well, he's a ranger, not a rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), so I don't really see why he'd be any good at finding traps.

He found a bunch, though. Elan pointed out that he's really good at this.

On the main issue, it's clear from the adventure in salad dressing that V has no respect for YY, and is willing to torture him. V has, and uses, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, and was willing to disintegrate Kubota simply on the basis that Elan had him tied up. Roy suspected from the first that the plan was to send in the kobold to trigger all the traps. V and Haley were careful not to state what "proper commands" YY was given. Haley got the magic items away from him so they'd be safe. Even the Lawful Good fighter could tell that the search technique did not involve searching. And the fact that they were torturing YY under Roy's nose was the main point of the strip.

People are going to a lot of trouble to deny the joke in this humor strip.

[FafnerMorell]

I'd say it's mostly f) - it's funnier this way.

That said, a) is probably true, and a bit of c).

And, as is pointed out, V's attitude towards anyone who has tried to kill anyone in the party is harsh - it's not a "forgive & forget" or "you get a 2nd chance" but rather "You continue to live only if it benefits the party". I would argue that it is Neutral (rather than Evil) - but it's a very hard-edge Neutral. Don't cross the line or you forfeit your life.

[Niveus Candidus]

2. It's definitely not "search trap in the best way you can". Dominate person give very limited range of activity, this also means you cannot give a command that's too broad and expect it to be carried about.

Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)

Relevant text: "If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities."

"search [for] trap[s] in the best way you can" is within the spell's scope.

It can be argued that V was not specific enough in his verbiage and YukYuk favored taking it to the face as "The best of his abilities" over searching, even if his search skill were at max. This seems doubtful, though. The spell even denotes it follows the caster's desire, and makes no note about syntax or subject's ability to interrupt. More likely, YukYuk is not a particularly good trap finder, the traps were particularly well hidden or V's instructions were worded carefully enough that the act was not obviously self-destructive.

[russdm]

What proof we do actually have that YY actually searched for traps? We don't have any. We have no proof that V actually ordered YY to search for traps at the best of his ability. The comic itself shows that V simply ordered YY to walk up the stairs, not search for traps at all. Neither YY's actual skill at trapfinding or Girard's skill at trapplacing came into play or were considered.

[FafnerMorell]

What proof we do actually have that YY actually searched for traps? We don't have any. We have no proof that V actually ordered YY to search for traps at the best of his ability. The comic itself shows that V simply ordered YY to walk up the stairs, not search for traps at all. Neither YY's actual skill at trapfinding or Girard's skill at trapplacing came into play or were considered.

Actually, we don't see in the comic V actually ordering YY to walk up the stairs. In the last 5 panels, YY simply goes from standing upright (end-4), various sound effects are heard (end-3 to end-1) and then YY is shown scarred and upside down (end). It's just presumed that YY went up the stairs and the traps caused the injuries.

[Zevox]

The comic itself shows that V simply ordered YY to walk up the stairs, not search for traps at all.
No, it does nothing of the sort. It tells us that what actually happened was that Yuk Yuk simply walked up the stairs. It does not tell us that V told him not to search for traps. That is nothing but conclusion-jumping.

Simply put, the obvious answer to this question from where I'm sitting is the OP's "A." The Kobold was told to search for traps, but has no skill at that, so all he could do was walk up and trigger any traps that might be there. That's the joke.

Zevox

[russdm]

I submit this as evidence from the comic itself:

Roy: "That's an interesting technique. It's like he's-just walking up-the stairs." Last four panels of the comic. That clearly shows that he was given the instructions from V to just walk up the stairs. Or do you deny what the comic itself says?

[JT]

I submit this as evidence from the comic itself:

Roy: "That's an interesting technique. It's like he's-just walking up-the stairs." Last four panels of the comic. That clearly shows that he was given the instructions from V to just walk up the stairs. Or do you deny what the comic itself says?

That just says what YY did. It does not indicate what V told him to do.

If V had (mentally) told him "Just walk right up the stairs"... YY would have done that, and the comic description/statement would be appropriate.

If V had told him "Go up the stairs, searching for traps as best you can," and YY has no ranks in search ... YY would have walked up the stairs, and the comic description/statement would be appropriate.


You cannot determine, from the comic, what V mentally instructed YY to do.

[FafnerMorell]

I submit this as evidence from the comic itself:

Roy: "That's an interesting technique. It's like he's-just walking up-the stairs." Last four panels of the comic. That clearly shows that he was given the instructions from V to just walk up the stairs. Or do you deny what the comic itself says?
That's what Roy says. V never says such a thing - only "Indeed" (end-4), and that would indicate agreement to what Haley says, as well as V's original proposal of "to search for traps to the best of his ability".

[ti'esar]

That's what Roy says. V never says such a thing - only "Indeed" (end-4), and that would indicate agreement to what Haley says, as well as V's original proposal of "to search for traps to the best of his ability".

Yeah, the Order's only guessing he has any ranks in search to begin with.

[Zevox]

I submit this as evidence from the comic itself:

Roy: "That's an interesting technique. It's like he's-just walking up-the stairs." Last four panels of the comic. That clearly shows that he was given the instructions from V to just walk up the stairs. Or do you deny what the comic itself says?
I do not - the problem is that the comic itself does not say what you claim. It says that Yuk Yuk is just walking up the stairs. It does not say that V told him to do that. Those are two very different things.

Zevox

[Herbert]

If YY had been searching to the best of his ability he would have been taking 20 every step of the way up. Apparently he wasn't taking 20 though; just walking up.

[Zevox]

If YY had been searching to the best of his ability he would have been taking 20 every step of the way up. Apparently he wasn't taking 20 though; just walking up.
That rests on the assumption of Rich interpreting that statement entirely literally within the confines of D&D rules. Given what we know about how he feels regarding the importance of staying strictly faithful to D&D rules versus telling a story and jokes, how likely does that interpretation actually seem? Especially when you factor in that any readers who aren't well-versed in 3.5 D&D rules wouldn't understand what happened if that were the case?

Zevox

[russdm]

The flaw in your reasoning is that if he had no ability to search for traps then the Dominate's "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." This would still apply if he such a low ability that he would not be able to succeed unless he made a natural 20 every time. Having no chance at all except natural 20s means that searching for traps/locating traps would be suicidal and YY would have not done so. Walking up the stairs where there might be a trap is not self-destructive whereas searching for traps when you have no real chance of finding them is self-destructive.

Of course if we accept that YY did search for traps and he is this poor, then having Haley search for any remaining traps is the only option. If Haley can't find them either, then why not just send Roy up to trigger them?

[NerfTW]

If YY had been searching to the best of his ability he would have been taking 20 every step of the way up. Apparently he wasn't taking 20 though; just walking up.

Doesn't taking 20 take a long time? Something like 10 minutes? Wouldn't that mean searching the stairs would take a whole day? They don't really have time to be sitting around any more than necessary, not while they believe Nale is on his way.

I'm pretty sure V sent him up just to trigger the traps, not to search. It was the most expedient way to deal with the traps. And to be fair, the kobold DID try to kill V and Mr. Scruffy already. This isn't some innocent bystander we're dealing with. And they can just heal him right back up.

[russdm]

I'm pretty sure V sent him up just to trigger the traps, not to search.

I agree with this. This is what i am trying to say happened. Thats all i am trying to say.

[Zevox]

The flaw in your reasoning is that if he had no ability to search for traps then the Dominate's "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." This would still apply if he such a low ability that he would not be able to succeed unless he made a natural 20 every time.
Not at all. Without knowing for certain that there were traps there capable of killing him, the order cannot be obviously self-destructive. It can only be assumed to be potentially self-destructive.

Also, see my above point about strictly literal interpretations within the rules and Rich's history of statements about such things. Even if you were correct, that would be quite relevant here as well.


Of course if we accept that YY did search for traps and he is this poor, then having Haley search for any remaining traps is the only option.
Of course. Don't know about you, but that's entirely what I expect to happen. It's not like there's anything else the Order can do, unless they assume that Yuk Yuk already triggered all of the traps, which would obviously be a stupid assumption.

Edit: And surprise surprise, that is exactly what happened.

Zevox

[Chronos]

Even if he had no ranks at all in Search, it can still be used untrained. If Vaarsuvius had ordered him to search to the best of his ability, he would have been making Search checks (even if they weren't very good Search checks), not just walking straight up.

[Zevox]

Even if he had no ranks at all in Search, it can still be used untrained. If Vaarsuvius had ordered him to search to the best of his ability, he would have been making Search checks (even if they weren't very good Search checks), not just walking straight up.

That rests on the assumption of Rich interpreting that statement entirely literally within the confines of D&D rules. Given what we know about how he feels regarding the importance of staying strictly faithful to D&D rules versus telling a story and jokes, how likely does that interpretation actually seem? Especially when you factor in that any readers who aren't well-versed in 3.5 D&D rules wouldn't understand what happened if that were the case?
Still just as relevant.

Zevox

[Herbert]

That rests on the assumption of Rich interpreting that statement entirely literally within the confines of D&D rules. Given what we know about how he feels regarding the importance of staying strictly faithful to D&D rules versus telling a story and jokes, how likely does that interpretation actually seem? Especially when you factor in that any readers who aren't well-versed in 3.5 D&D rules wouldn't understand what happened if that were the case?

Zevox

Do you have any reason to believe that the search skill works differently in OOTS-world than normal D&D? Of course it could be different and some things have been changed from normal D&D, but most things are the same. Also, normally if he changes something he has a pretty good reason for changing it. That is the whole reason we have huge threads trying to nail down the class/level of everything and the type of everything and what not. Which do you personally think is most likely: that the Giant has decided to houserule search or taking a 20 so it works differently or that V just decided to have YY walk straight up stairs?

[derfenrirwolv]

c) V didn't give him the proper mental command - he told him to walk onto the traps.


Roy said it didn't even look like he was searching.

[Jay R]

The joke is that they sent him up to be harmed by all the traps, in front of Roy.

This is a humor strip.

Therefore the joke exists.

[Zevox]

Do you have any reason to believe that the search skill works differently in OOTS-world than normal D&D?
No - but that has nothing to do with what I said.


Which do you personally think is most likely: that the Giant has decided to houserule search or taking a 20 so it works differently or that V just decided to have YY walk straight up stairs?
Neither. What I personally think is likely is that the Giant made a joke about something that is simple common sense: that someone completely lacking in knowledge of how to search for traps could really only do so by simply setting off any that happen to be around.

Zevox

[pendell]

I observe that in 841 YY no longer has visible damage in the panel he's in. Has the party used healing to bring him back to full hit points?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[JCarter426]

I thought he was just horrible at searching for traps, just as Belkar is an incompetent tracker - which was mentioned again a few strips earlier. And Haley's reasoning for sending Yukyuk is that she hasn't been putting points in it, and thinks he must be as good as her - which would be true, if Yukyuk is simply incompetent.

I suppose it's possible V just told him to walk up the stairs, but that wasn't my initial thought.

[Clertar]

I don't really need to see too much cruelty on Haley's and Vaarsuviu's part for the joke to be funny, just their disregard for the kobold as opposed to Roy's care.

And about the traps, the way I understood it is that V gave him the order that he said he could give him, and he happened to have a really crappy search ability, for me it echoes or parodies trap searching in games like BG or NWN, where all the character did was activate the "search" ability and walk like they would have otherwise, and if you had a high enough rank you would happily find the traps, and if you did not you would just set them off as you kept walking :smallbiggrin: