reaping mauler

[limejuicepowder]

Why is this class considered so bad (bad as in can't even do what it's supposed to do)? Getting imp grapple as a class ability is wackadoo, as it makes the player either waste a feat or wait until entry to actually do any grappling, but besides that the abilities are kinda cool - sleeper lock and counter grapple especially.

Before it's even said, I am fully aware of the short comings - grapple only engages one target, doesn't work against many enemies, and the capstone of the class is far too slow to bother using in most encounters - but I think that highlights the terribleness of grapple as a whole, and the class just becomes crummy by association.

Are there other reasons why this class is called "broken"?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Enlarge Person is the best buff to grapplers. You lose all your Reaping Mauler levels while using it, or at least the abilities.

I guess it could sorta work with Wolverine Stance, since that's also focused on grappling creatures larger than you, but that means you're taking levels in a non-initiator class for no good reason. And you can still take the Enlarge Person against huge+ enemies, or large+ if small-sized (which a grappler shouldn't be).

[skycycle blues]

There is either a feat requirement for the class or a class feature (AFB, can't remember what it is) that only applies if you are Small or Medium sized, but the best way to be a better grappler is to find ways to increase your size.

[Mystify]

Just as others are saying, the best way to grapple is to be as big as possible. Reaping mauler requires a feat that requires you to be no larger than medium. So, in order to use the class based on grappling, you have to be bad at grappling. It is self defeating.

[limejuicepowder]

ah hah. "clever wrestling" feat, a req for the class, requires the character to be small or medium. If the character becomes large, they loose the feat and loose the whole class.

Yeah that blows...especially since the feat is terrible. What nonsense.

[Cog]

ah hah. "clever wrestling" feat, a req for the class, requires the character to be small or medium. If the character becomes large, they loose the feat and loose the whole class.
There is one way around it that I know of. Leviathan Hunter, from Stormwrack, gives Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat irrespective of prereqs, meaning you keep it even when you're enlarged/expanded.

[Kuma Kode]

As a DM I usually swap Clever Wrestling, a prerequisite, and Improved Grapple, the first level feat, because no self-respecting grappler is going to grab Clever Wrestling before Improved Grapple. Improved Grapple is a no-brainer prerequisite.

If your DM will allow you to do that, it's not that bad.

[Spiryt]

The fact that to be decent in breaking bones and stuff, together with some other things, you have to walk around in your 4 times larger body, is kind of fundamental flaw in system...

Perhaps Enlarge Person and stuff to easy to get.

[Mystify]

As a DM I usually swap Clever Wrestling, a prerequisite, and Improved Grapple, the first level feat, because no self-respecting grappler is going to grab Clever Wrestling before Improved Grapple. Improved Grapple is a no-brainer prerequisite.

If your DM will allow you to do that, it's not that bad.

Esp. since that would bypass the size requirement on the feat, thereby removing its critical flaw.

[Aeryr]

Wouldn't a Goliath powerful build work just allright? He is technically medium. :smallconfused:

[Mystify]

Wouldn't a Goliath powerful build work just allright? He is technically medium. :smallconfused:

yeah, but once again, you want to be larger than that. For instance, a Goliath(or half giant) with the expansion psionic power, making them effectively gargantuan.

[Cog]

The fact that to be decent in breaking bones and stuff, together with some other things, you have to walk around in your 4 times larger body, is kind of fundamental flaw in system...

Perhaps Enlarge Person and stuff to easy to get.
Except that monsters get their big size modifiers without Enlarge Person and the like. Instead of making it so you don't need to be large to be a grappler, you've simply made grappling not an option against most enemies.

[Benly]

Also, while Sleeper Lock and Devastating Grapple are both nice abilities in terms of their effects, their DC scaling is not good. They go off class level in a five-level class and Wis, which is at best going to be a secondary or tertiary stat for most grapplers (even on a monk it's going to be a significant second place to Strength.) While swapping Improved Grapple and Clever Wrestling keeps the class from being literally broken as the as-written form is, the weak DC scaling still keeps it from really being all that hot.

[Eldariel]

Also, while Sleeper Lock and Devastating Grapple are both nice abilities in terms of their effects, their DC scaling is not good. They go off class level in a five-level class and Wis, which is at best going to be a secondary or tertiary stat for most grapplers (even on a monk it's going to be a significant second place to Strength.) While swapping Improved Grapple and Clever Wrestling keeps the class from being literally broken as the as-written form is, the weak DC scaling still keeps it from really being all that hot.

This, and then there's the fact that a Grappler-class gets very minimal bonuses to actually Grappling (+2 over 5 levels; less than a single feat or size increase, and the same Raging Barbarian) so while you get some cute stuff, you're going to be worse than a single-classed Barbarian far as Grapple-checks go.

And you're a Grapple, why the hell would you want to escape Grapple you so hard worked to get your opponent into? The whole Escape Artist-nonsense is kinda stupid; your Grapple-check is almost bound to be better than your Escape Artist on a dedicated Grappler anyways so Counter Grapple is WTF. And then you get quite possibly the worst feat in PHB, Mobility, as a bonus feat. If you have Tumble (which is a class skill and class prerequisite) you'll get about 1000 times superior protection than +4 AC and it completely obsoletes Mobility.


Overall, the class design is just all over the place, the class doesn't do very much and isn't very good at what it's designed to be good at.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you read this, if you want to be a competent grappler?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

[Benly]

This, and then there's the fact that a Grappler-class gets very minimal bonuses to actually Grappling (+2 over 5 levels; less than a single feat or size increase, and the same Raging Barbarian) so while you get some cute stuff, you're going to be worse than a single-classed Barbarian far as Grapple-checks go.

To be fair, there is a niche for that - there are a lot of ways to get grapple bonuses but relatively few that give ways to make a successful grapple more of a threat. If you've already got a very high grapple bonus and are looking for ways to get more use out of it, a PrC that gives you various special effects to apply to your grapples would have a place.

Of course, Reaping Mauler isn't that class, with its qualification and DC problems on top of the "wait, bonuses to escape a grapple?" issue you describe, but it could be an interesting idea.

[Mystify]

Plus, due to how the mechanics are designed, it takes forever to actually bring an enemy down. Just the one.

[Eldariel]

To be fair, there is a niche for that - there are a lot of ways to get grapple bonuses but relatively few that give ways to make a successful grapple more of a threat. If you've already got a very high grapple bonus and are looking for ways to get more use out of it, a PrC that gives you various special effects to apply to your grapples would have a place.

Of course, Reaping Mauler isn't that class, with its qualification and DC problems on top of the "wait, bonuses to escape a grapple?" issue you describe, but it could be an interesting idea.

Yeah, that class is called "Black Blood Cultist". Though it's largely possible to get enough out of Grapple-checks without too much effort; the bigger problem is how specific they are and how higher level magic is so incredibly efficient against grappling (not to mention, pure simple size).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Grapple opponent.
2. Declare you're Power Attacking for your full BAB.
3. Roll a grapple check to deal unarmed strike (+constrict) damage.
4. ???
5. Profit.

4. Power Attack penalties only apply to attack rolls. A grapple check is not an attack roll, so the Power Attack penalty to attack rolls will not apply to it. An unarmed strike is a melee weapon, so you're making a melee damage roll, thus Power Attack applies its bonus to this damage.

WotC has officially stated that this shouldn't work because you're getting something for nothing. However, they've printed the Frost Giant Mauler in Frostburn, a monster that is known for doing this exact trick. This is a case of melee getting Nice Things, and even an underdog of the melee category at that. Luckily it does work by RAW and the monsters even get to do it, so PCs should be able to as well.

[Urpriest]

1. Grapple opponent.
2. Declare you're Power Attacking for your full BAB.
3. Roll a grapple check to deal unarmed strike (+constrict) damage.
4. ???
5. Profit.

4. Power Attack penalties only apply to attack rolls. A grapple check is not an attack roll, so the Power Attack penalty to attack rolls will not apply to it. An unarmed strike is a melee weapon, so you're making a melee damage roll, thus Power Attack applies its bonus to this damage.

WotC has officially stated that this shouldn't work because you're getting something for nothing. However, they've printed the Frost Giant Mauler in Frostburn, a monster that is known for doing this exact trick. This is a case of melee getting Nice Things, and even an underdog of the melee category at that. Luckily it does work by RAW and the monsters even get to do it, so PCs should be able to as well.

Could you point out to where it says that Frost Giant Maulers Power Attack during a grapple? I'm having a lot of trouble finding that information in or near its statblock.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Could you point out to where it says that Frost Giant Maulers Power Attack during a grapple? I'm having a lot of trouble finding that information in or near its statblock.

It doesn't come out and say it, but it's a CR 11 that only does 1d4+11 per hit. An Elder Earth Elemental is CR 11, and it deals 2d10+11/19-20 per hit. I seriously stared at the Mauler's stat block for a good five minutes trying to figure out how it could even be a credible threat. If a creature has Power Attack and can reliably hit while using it, then it should use it, hence the reason PCs shouldn't just dump AC. In this case though, it can make grapple checks instead of attack rolls once it has a foe in its crushing grasp.

[Cog]

It doesn't come out and say it, but it's a CR 11 that only does 1d4+11 per hit. An Elder Earth Elemental is CR 11, and it deals 2d10+11/19-20 per hit. I seriously stared at the Mauler's stat block for a good five minutes trying to figure out how it could even be a credible threat. If a creature has Power Attack and can reliably hit while using it, then it should use it, hence the reason PCs shouldn't just dump AC. In this case though, it can make grapple checks instead of attack rolls once it has a foe in its crushing grasp.
It's quite a leap from that reasoning to saying that Frost Giant Maulers are "known" for this.

[Urpriest]

It's quite a leap from that reasoning to saying that Frost Giant Maulers are "known" for this.

Honestly, yeah. Besides, the Frost Giant Mauler gets iteratives, the Elder Earth Elemental doesn't. I'd say the Frost Giant is doing higher damage even without assuming you can Power Attack on something that isn't an attack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Honestly, yeah. Besides, the Frost Giant Mauler gets iteratives, the Elder Earth Elemental doesn't. I'd say the Frost Giant is doing higher damage even without assuming you can Power Attack on something that isn't an attack.

Power Attack adds a bonus to melee damage rolls, if you can make a melee damage roll without making an attack roll you still get to add Power Attack to it. RAW it works when making a grapple check to deal damage.

Consider the giant's X/-5/-10 iteratives versus the elemental's X/X attack routine, and the fact that your grapple checks to deal damage can't crit versus the elemental's 19-20 threat range. Plus this is comparing a core MM monster to a creature in a post-MM3 book. I'll still say that without power attacking on his grapple checks, the Frost Giant Mauler is underpowered for a CR 11.

[Urpriest]

Power Attack adds a bonus to melee damage rolls, if you can make a melee damage roll without making an attack roll you still get to add Power Attack to it. RAW it works when making a grapple check to deal damage.

Consider the giant's X/-5/-10 iteratives versus the elemental's X/X attack routine, and the fact that your grapple checks to deal damage can't crit versus the elemental's 19-20 threat range. Plus this is comparing a core MM monster to a creature in a post-MM3 book. I'll still say that without power attacking on his grapple checks, the Frost Giant Mauler is underpowered for a CR 11.

What makes it a melee damage roll? It's a roll equivalent to your unarmed strike, but unarmed strikes can be used for ranged attacks with the right support. We've got no reason to assume it's a melee damage roll.

On the other hand, even post MM3 underpowered monsters are par for the course. Don't forget that MMIV was full of largely forgettable unoptimized class-leveled monsters.