LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

[turkishproverb]

Hi everybody!

It's that time again. Welcome to the 21st Giantitp thread for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Trans, Asexual, other delightfully unusual and friendly people whom could not fit in the acronym or it would break the browser.

Remember, everyone is welcome, as long as they obey the rules. We're all playing the same game with the very different cards we've been given.

ON that note, a reminder of a few rules

No adult sexual content. It's against site rules.
Let's keep things as A-political as possible.
Similarly, try to leave religion out of it.
NO discussing if LGBTAetc. is "good" or "right" for the above reasons, mostly.
Everyone is welcome. L, G, B,T, A, A, N, V, Q, Ω, everyone. As long as they behave themselves.


If you have a question, or two, or need advice, feel free to ask here.

If you want advice or have a question, but don't feel comfortable posting here or giving your name, go here:

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

and your comment can be sent and posted here anonymously.

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. If they want to be added to the contacts listed, they just need to ask and I'll post a link below this paragraph.

For my part, you can get to me via PM. I might not be much help, but I'm willing to listen.


LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTAitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192714)

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200329)

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207987)

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11820872#)

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219966)

LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223792)

LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227182)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12613347)



Also, borrowing this from Golentan:


And, for reference, here is the Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitp Words and Phrases
Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG: Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer
Allies: Straight people that support equality for sexuality and gender minorities.
MtF: Male-to-Female: A woman born with male nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans woman)
FtM: Female-to-Male: A man born with female nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans man)
GQ: Genderqueer.
CS: Cis-sexual: sex and gender match (a male with male nibblies, a female with female nibblies.
TS: Transsexual: Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Not very common.

Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between male and female.
Agendered: Someone who feels neither male nor female.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to both male and female people.
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is only sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Androsexual: A person (of any gender identity) who is sexually attracted to the male-bodied form.
Gynosexual: A person (of any gender identity) who is sexually attracted to the female-bodied form
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)



EDIT: And Thanks to KenderWizard for bringing it in before Golentan.


Once again, welcome to all, and watch out. There are a lot of hugs going around in here!

*ducks*

[noparlpf]

Whee new thread!

[supernerd]

Gonna say Hi before I go to bed, have fun new thread!

*hugs thread and any nearby commentors*

[Cobra_Ikari]

*snuggles to kick off new thread right*

[turkishproverb]

Gonna say Hi before I go to bed, have fun new thread!

*hugs thread and any nearby commentors*

*is hugged* He got me!


*snuggles to kick off new thread right*

*hugs cobra*

[Arachu]

I just resonated with the roof of my mouth. That's halfway to the feminine range! :smallbiggrin:

*Hugsplosion*

[Qaera]

I was thinking about renaming the dictionary but I quite like the old one. :smallbiggrin:

~ ♅

[Triscuitable]

Woo! We needed a gambling related pun to inspire some people to keep up bad habits! :smallredface:

There's something about this thread. Something I dread... There is something tragic that will occur here in three pages time.

[turkishproverb]

...That was ominous.

[Nix Nihila]

Fear death by water. [/Generic "psychic" advice]

[Kneenibble]

How I wishy, I wishy this thread were not a thread on an Internet forum, but a club where baroque and soft jazz were played on a dais littered with all auspicious instruments; that I might, with a tongue sweetened with chewing of licorice and liquors, snog such a handful of you by tealight gloam and like a loved mermaid dash my sea-fae form to foam.

[noparlpf]

How I wishy, I wishy this thread were not a thread on an Internet forum, but a club where baroque and soft jazz were played on a dais littered with all auspicious instruments; that I might, with a tongue sweetened with chewing of licorice and liquors, snog such a handful of you by tealight gloam and like a loved mermaid dash my sea-fae form to foam.

I like the idea of the baroque and soft jazz, and of the licorice (my dad's family is German, and he likes salty licorice, so I picked that taste up from him). Snogging isn't my style, though.

[turkishproverb]

I like the jazz idea.

[Ashen Lilies]

Excuse me guys, flying to Canada, kthanxbye.

[turkishproverb]

Have fun Kris

[golentan]

How I wishy, I wishy this thread were not a thread on an Internet forum, but a club where baroque and soft jazz were played on a dais littered with all auspicious instruments; that I might, with a tongue sweetened with chewing of licorice and liquors, snog such a handful of you by tealight gloam and like a loved mermaid dash my sea-fae form to foam.

I would gladly exchange liquids with you and provide for you a place to sit in the back booths.

[Arachu]

Well, I have a new favorite setting to describe this thread with. :smalltongue:

... My version may or may not have more lasers and 80's music. :P

[Cobra_Ikari]

How I wishy, I wishy this thread were not a thread on an Internet forum, but a club where baroque and soft jazz were played on a dais littered with all auspicious instruments; that I might, with a tongue sweetened with chewing of licorice and liquors, snog such a handful of you by tealight gloam and like a loved mermaid dash my sea-fae form to foam.

...truly I can think of no more appropriate place for Kneen-snoggings.

...also, for some reason, you remind me of a Tom Collins, and so I imagine you would taste of lemonade.

[golentan]

...truly I can think of no more appropriate place for Kneen-snoggings.

...also, for some reason, you remind me of a Tom Collins, and so I imagine you would taste of lemonade.

The handsome devil would, wouldn't he?

[Triscuitable]

I believe the club would need slow heavy metal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKQTWq6ZbTc)

I love that song.

[Lady Tialait]

Are you guys kidding? The tone of this place switches between techno-dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4tT5xfZS90) and smooth jazz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs).

The DJ here is insane, and I, for one, welcome his rule over us all.

[Arachu]

I believe the club would need slow heavy metal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKQTWq6ZbTc)

I love that song.

Fog machines work, too. :smallcool:

Now I have that song such in my head. n.n


Are you guys kidding? The tone of this place switches between techno-dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4tT5xfZS90) and smooth jazz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs).

The DJ here is insane, and I, for one, welcome his rule over us all.

If two heads are better than one, than surely two heads in one get just as much done for half the cost.

... Only, with a mustache. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh yeah, those hit the nail on the head.

[Kneenibble]

...truly I can think of no more appropriate place for Kneen-snoggings.

...also, for some reason, you remind me of a Tom Collins, and so I imagine you would taste of lemonade.
Tom Collins is one of my favourite cocktails, so I take this as a great complement, sweet Cobra.

The truth of the matter is however -- I have an hourly habit of eating either licorice roots, or whole cloves; and from day to day taste quite strongly of one or the other. The pleasure of my enkissed is as important to me as my own.

The handsome devil would, wouldn't he?

;___;
One day, je vais baiser ta bouche.

[Asta Kask]

Alice Cooper. Black Sabbath. and hugs.

[Nix Nihila]

The truth of the matter is however -- I have an hourly habit of eating either licorice roots, or whole cloves; and from day to day taste quite strongly of one or the other. The pleasure of my enkissed is as important to me as my own.


Goodness, you're much more considerate than anyone I've ever kissed.

[golentan]

Et un jour, je vais vous embrasser en retour. Apologies, as I don't actually know french this is likely mangled. Still, as with what we discuss I may be unskilled but I am passionate.

[Arachu]

Alice Cooper. Black Sabbath. and hugs.

Maybe a bit of Tesla here and there (especially on slow days).

I like this lineup. :smallbiggrin:

[BillyBobJoe]

O glorious new thread, thy sweet smell is like that of... licorice? What the hell kind of script is this?!?!?! Anyways, gender-confusion continues. :smalltongue: I'm pretty much gender-fluid, my identity changing at different times, but I do appear to be sort of 'settling-out' on a female identity... but man, this is going to amplify my current relationship issues tenfold. :smalleek::smallfrown:

[KenderWizard]

Good morning everyone!



Also, borrowing this from Golentan:


I'm still being fussy. It was A Thousand Words who made the dictionary and me who put it into the thingy. I would fight Golentan for the honour, but apparently he's all entwined in Kneenibble right now, so I'm going to let them get on with that! :smalltongue:

By the way, if we play techno in here, I'm going to have to leave. Hearing techno makes me angry!

[golentan]

*Looks up from stroking the fine hairs on the back of Kneenibble's neck*

Yeah, I basically stole the whole text of my opening from lix (I think it was lix).

You don't like techno kender? Well, will you at least dansa med oss? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2DQmO5fPEk)

[Heliomance]

How I wishy, I wishy this thread were not a thread on an Internet forum, but a club where baroque and soft jazz were played on a dais littered with all auspicious instruments; that I might, with a tongue sweetened with chewing of licorice and liquors, snog such a handful of you by tealight gloam and like a loved mermaid dash my sea-fae form to foam.

Sophisticated As Hell there, Kneebiter.

Also, thread subtitles are a thing now?

[pffh]

Also, thread subtitles are a thing now?

They are a thing everywhere else so why not here. CONFORM! DO NOT DEVIATE FROM THE NORM.


:smalltongue:

[golentan]

I took on someone at work today over whether gay people are really people. I think I (rhetorically speaking) kicked her teeth in.

I reserve the right to non-rhetorically kick in the teeth of those using needless violence, but only such people. So yeah, evil beware. We have waffles.

[Coidzor]

...Seriously? :smallconfused: Do they think that non-heteronormative people are lizard people infiltrators from the center of the earth?
Also, thread subtitles are a thing now?

Huh? :smallconfused: I thought you were there when it all went down last thread.

I expressed relief in retrospect that my mistake in adding a subtitle hadn't been repeated. That perked up the ears of several people and once you've got people having fun with coming up with them, there's no going back.

I should've kept quiet. I really, really should have. :smallfrown:

[Heliomance]

Huh? :smallconfused: I thought you were there when it all went down last thread.


I was, I thought it was going to be a one-time thing

[Asta Kask]

I took on someone at work today over whether gay people are really people. I think I (rhetorically speaking) kicked her teeth in.


...Seriously? :smallconfused: Do they think that non-heteronormative people are lizard people infiltrators from the center of the earth?

I heard somewhere that gays are men who have lost the capability to love and therefore their only interest is sex.

[The Succubus]

If you don't mind me being nosey Helio, what are your thoughts about how your little experiment went overall? Do you think you'll be going out in girl mode more often? :smallsmile:

[turkishproverb]

...Seriously? :smallconfused: Do they think that non-heteronormative people are lizard people infiltrators from the center of the earth?

Crap. he's on to me.:belkar:

[KenderWizard]

*Looks up from stroking the fine hairs on the back of Kneenibble's neck*

Yeah, I basically stole the whole text of my opening from lix (I think it was lix).

You don't like techno kender? Well, will you at least dansa med oss? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2DQmO5fPEk)

Well, youtube is down for me, so hard for me to say! Some techno is semi-acceptable if we are only dancing, but I think this is a conversational pub!


I heard somewhere that gays are men who have lost the capability to love and therefore their only interest is sex.

That makes PERFECT sense! ... No, wait, the exact opposite of that.

[Viera Champion]

Awwww... Our thread is legally old enough to drink now.:smallredface:

[pffh]

That makes PERFECT sense! ... No, wait, the exact opposite of that.

Yes everyone knows gay people don't have souls and instead there are evil spirits inside them and that's why they aren't attracted to people with good souls in them but only to other people with evil spirits (Bi people have both that are fighting for control) and the evil spirits are always trying to create more vessels for evil spirits.

Also there are different evil spirits. One for each gender.

[Triscuitable]

Yes everyone knows gay people don't have souls and instead there are evil spirits inside them and that's why they aren't attracted to people with good souls in them but only to other people with evil spirits (Bi people have both that are fighting for control) and the evil spirits are always trying to create more vessels for evil spirits.

Also there are different evil spirits. One for each gender.

The truth is, it is the gingers who lack souls!

[The Succubus]

The truth is, it is the gingers who lack souls!

I think I remember reading somewhere that statements like these legally entitle me to disembowel you. Although my searing orange flames have faded now (and even started to disappear altogether! :smalleek:) ginger jokes still rub me the wrong way.

[Heliomance]

Awwww... Our thread is legally old enough to drink now.:smallredface:

That happened three threads ago. Silly Americans.

[blackjack217]

you called?

[The Succubus]

Shoo and come back in 194 thread's time. Give it a week or two. :smalltongue:

[Viera Champion]

I heard somewhere that gays are men who have lost the capability to love and therefore their only interest is sex.

Ah. the ancients times when gays were only thought of as promiscuous, soulless, child molesters. When was that, like, the 70s?

[Asta Kask]

I heard it last year, actually. Or maybe two years ago.

[Viera Champion]

I heard it last year, actually. Or maybe two years ago.

Oh, I was talking about my statement, I very much suspect that all these things are very much believed by people, just not all at the same time.

[Triscuitable]

I think I remember reading somewhere that statements like these legally entitle me to disembowel you. Although my searing orange flames have faded now (and even started to disappear altogether! :smalleek:) ginger jokes still rub me the wrong way.

When I can laugh about my own carrot-top, I think the jokes are fine. But nonetheless, we will maintain beautiful blonde hair into old age, while all others will become white haired and MISERABLE! AGAHAHAHAHA!

[The Succubus]

When I can laugh about my own carrot-top, I think the jokes are fine. But nonetheless, we will maintain beautiful blonde hair into old age, while all others will become white haired and MISERABLE! AGAHAHAHAHA!

This is true. Also, our flame haired women are hawt.

[Qaera]

Yes everyone knows gay people don't have souls and instead there are evil spirits inside them and that's why they aren't attracted to people with good souls in them but only to other people with evil spirits (Bi people have both that are fighting for control) and the evil spirits are always trying to create more vessels for evil spirits.

Also there are different evil spirits. One for each gender.

Not a perfect analogy, but Exalted's Anathema?

~ ♅

[Asta Kask]

I don't mind going gray. I accepted that fate a long time ago.

[The Succubus]

Having seen your piccie, I reckon you'd look quite dashing with silver locks.

[Asta Kask]

I have quite a few white hairs already. Maybe they don't show because the lighting?

[Heliomance]

If you don't mind me being nosey Helio, what are your thoughts about how your little experiment went overall? Do you think you'll be going out in girl mode more often? :smallsmile:

Oh yeah, missed this. Yes, I think I will. I've been wearing blouses and women's jeans in public for a while, and I've now started shaving and applying foundation every day. From there, well, all that's needed to project "girl" is breasts and a high ponytail. It's surprised me how little I need to change to swap between female and feminine. I suppose my day to day presentation has been reasonably androgynous for a while, I just haven't noticed as I tend to see a guy in the mirror unless the female presentation is quite overt.

I have an MtF friend who doesn't use her chesticles any more, so I'm hoping to borrow them soon.

[Asta Kask]

*hugs*

I'm happy for you.

[Heliomance]

Currently planning on exploring femininity for a while, hopefully enough to start eroding people's perception of me as male - and possibly my own as well - then approach androgyny from the other side.

I really do need to work on my voice though.

[pffh]

Not a perfect analogy, but Exalted's Anathema?

~ ♅

The what of whos now?
Exalted the RPG? I know nothing about that.

[Ashen Lilies]

I don't mind going gray. I accepted that fate a long time ago.

I would welcome the chance to go gray, as long as it meant I had hair to go gray.

Alas, that pesky baldness gene runs in both sides of my family. :smallfrown:

[pffh]

I would welcome the chance to go gray, as long as it meant I had hair to go gray.

Alas, that pesky baldness gene runs in both sides of my family. :smallfrown:

Just remember that even if you do go bald you will still have the same numbers of hairs. They are just invisible to the naked eye. :smalltongue:

[Thufir]

...Seriously? :smallconfused: Do they think that non-heteronormative people are lizard people infiltrators from the center of the earth?

...this one knows too much.


Awwww... Our thread is legally old enough to drink now.:smallredface:

What Helio said:


That happened three threads ago. Silly Americans.

[Taffimai]

Ah. the ancients times when gays were only thought of as promiscuous, soulless, child molesters. When was that, like, the 70s?

I'm currently reading a novel written in 1979 where an inspector is investigating the death of a priest, featuring the following dialogue:

- "Do you think that perhaps he might have liked the choir boys a little too much?"
- "Oh, no, I don't believe he was a homosexual, and if he was then his persuasion must have been of a very passive, gentle nature."

The book continues to use "homosexual" throughout in the meaning of "pedophile". This edition published in 1994, reprinted in 1998.

I was really shocked that they hadn't corrected it at the time of republishing, but then I wondered wether it might not be better to keep them for historical relevance. We're not changing all the "*******" and "negroes" in Uncle Tom's Cabin into african-americans either, after all.

[noparlpf]

Good morning everyone!

I'm still being fussy. It was A Thousand Words who made the dictionary and me who put it into the thingy. I would fight Golentan for the honour, but apparently he's all entwined in Kneenibble right now, so I'm going to let them get on with that! :smalltongue:

By the way, if we play techno in here, I'm going to have to leave. Hearing techno makes me angry!

Good morning! I look like a hamster now. :D

I'm with you on the techno. It doesn't make me angry, but it's not my style. Can we stick to jazz?


I heard somewhere that gays are men who have lost the capability to love and therefore their only interest is sex.

Wut.


That makes PERFECT sense! ... No, wait, the exact opposite of that.

Yeah.


Awwww... Our thread is legally old enough to drink now.:smallredface:


That happened three threads ago. Silly Americans.

I don't get why I can fight and die for my country, and vote for the leaders of my country, but I can't drink or run for president.


I have quite a few white hairs already. Maybe they don't show because the lighting?

I noticed a little bit, but it's not very visible.


I would welcome the chance to go gray, as long as it meant I had hair to go gray.

Alas, that pesky baldness gene runs in both sides of my family. :smallfrown:

I'm with you on that. I think I would look quite good with grey hair. Or any hair. I'm kind of praying I got my dad's hair instead of my mum's. He's fifty and still has very thick hair without much grey.

[Heliomance]

I've been trying to think of a gender neutral name I like to start using, but I've been having trouble. I think I just worked out why.
I don't want to step away from the name my parents gave me, because that feels like stepping away from them, rejecting them. I asked what I'd have been called had I been a girl, and got Naomi. I really like that, and would feel comfortable using it, but it's no more gender neutral than Thomas. And neither of them diminutise to anything gender neutral either. I suppose I could go with Nay, but that still sounds weird to me.

[H Birchgrove]

I'm currently reading a novel written in 1979 where an inspector is investigating the death of a priest, featuring the following dialogue:

- "Do you think that perhaps he might have liked the choir boys a little too much?"
- "Oh, no, I don't believe he was a homosexual, and if he was then his persuasion must have been of a very passive, gentle nature."

The book continues to use "homosexual" throughout in the meaning of "pedophile". This edition published in 1994, reprinted in 1998.

I was really shocked that they hadn't corrected it at the time of republishing, but then I wondered wether it might not be better to keep them for historical relevance. We're not changing all the "*******" and "negroes" in Uncle Tom's Cabin into african-americans either, after all.

Forewords and footnotes don't hurt.

Dashiell Hammett seems to have been at least mildly homophobic, but, alas, he lived and wrote several decades before your example.

(He took pride in sneaking in the word "gunsel", a slang word for either being a young male prostitute or the "passive" partner in a... well. *cough* The editors, and the readers, thought the word meant gunman, and the word got a new meaning as a result.)

Suddenly, I feel like reading my unabridged Tarzan and Bulldog Drummond novels and ordering the latest re-prints of the first Fu Manchu novels. :smalleek:

[Triscuitable]

This is true. Also, our flame haired women are hawt.

I cannot attest to this statement, my apologies.

Also, working on a new avatar. Google "Inspector Cabanela", and you'll see the most awesome Inspector ever.

[KenderWizard]

Awwww... Our thread is legally old enough to drink now.:smallredface:

As far as I'm concerned, it always has been, provided it was with its parent or guardian in its family home up until it was 18, and no restrictions after that!


Yes everyone knows gay people don't have souls and instead there are evil spirits inside them and that's why they aren't attracted to people with good souls in them but only to other people with evil spirits (Bi people have both that are fighting for control) and the evil spirits are always trying to create more vessels for evil spirits.

Also there are different evil spirits. One for each gender.

That makes marginally more sense to me. Why do people insist on coming up with hateful quaint beliefs?


I've been trying to think of a gender neutral name I like to start using, but I've been having trouble. I think I just worked out why.
I don't want to step away from the name my parents gave me, because that feels like stepping away from them, rejecting them. I asked what I'd have been called had I been a girl, and got Naomi. I really like that, and would feel comfortable using it, but it's no more gender neutral than Thomas. And neither of them diminutise to anything gender neutral either. I suppose I could go with Nay, but that still sounds weird to me.

Speaking as someone who rejected my given name, and not even for legitimate gender-related reasons, I can attest that it can be difficult to mess with names without upsetting parents. My advice is to talk to them about it. They must know that you want to diminish or play with your gender presentation. They might have a name they considered that's more gender neutral; what would they have called a second son or daughter (or bigger number, depending on siblings)? What would they suggest as a gender-neutral nickname?

[Asta Kask]

Tommy (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Tommy) can apparently be male or female. Spell it Tommi and make a little heart for the dot over the i. :smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Would you believe I was thinking about gender-neutral versions of Tom just yesterday? No, I don't know why. I got as far as "Thom", though, but decided it didn't work.
Tommi seems possible, though.

[noparlpf]

As far as I'm concerned, it always has been, provided it was with its parent or guardian in its family home up until it was 18, and no restrictions after that!

Oh you Irish folks. :b

[Taffimai]

@ Heliomance: Have you considered going by your surname? This works in most social settings, even those where people would know your official name, and very few people consider it weird. I'm still traumatised from all the times I was introduced to new colleagues and had to be grilled about why I wanted to be called Anne* instead of Cinderella*.

* not my actual names

[Arachu]

By the way, if we play techno in here, I'm going to have to leave. Hearing techno makes me angry!

*Hugs* I think it fits our feminist rants, actually...


Awwww... Our thread is legally old enough to drink now.:smallredface:

It can also smoke! Though it was already smoking... :smallredface:


Ah. the ancients times when gays were only thought of as promiscuous, soulless, child molesters. When was that, like, the 70s?

You know, I actually haven't heard the child molester bit outside of things that directly involved the stereotype... I always heard that we* molest adults (sometimes even women :smallconfused:).

* - 's far's they're concerned, I'm especially gay - not that I have a problem with being assumed to have a good decorating sense, mind. :smalltongue:


...Seriously? :smallconfused: Do they think that non-heteronormative people are lizard people infiltrators from the center of the earth?

Well, it would explain my claws... :we should have a lizardfolk smiley:


Huh? :smallconfused: I thought you were there when it all went down last thread.

I expressed relief in retrospect that my mistake in adding a subtitle hadn't been repeated. That perked up the ears of several people and once you've got people having fun with coming up with them, there's no going back.

I should've kept quiet. I really, really should have. :smallfrown:

*hugs, trying really hard not to pick on you*


Currently planning on exploring femininity for a while, hopefully enough to start eroding people's perception of me as male - and possibly my own as well - then approach androgyny from the other side.

I really do need to work on my voice though.

This (http://voice.sngjackie.com/4a.htm) may help a bit (moreso if you start from the start :smalltongue:) (thanks yet a third time, Astrella :smallbiggrin:).

Also, *hugs*.


Tommy (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Tommy) can apparently be male or female. Spell it Tommi and make a little heart for the dot over the i. :smalltongue:

That's a good one, actually... (curse you, Asta! :smalltongue:)

[Mina Kobold]

...Seriously? :smallconfused: Do they think that non-heteronormative people are lizard people infiltrators from the center of the earth?

Well, Kobolds are asexual underground reptilian humanoids infiltrating human society for the hats and cookies, so there could have arosen some confusion there. :smallconfused::smalltongue:


That happened three threads ago. Silly Americans.

Five over here, unless we have that thing Kender mentioned. Which we might. :3

On the music note: I usually don't like Techno either, but I would have to listen to the suggestions before my vote would be fair. My ren-fair vote goes to Celtic music, though. :smalltongue:

[turkishproverb]

Forewords and footnotes don't hurt.

Dashiell Hammett seems to have been at least mildly homophobic, but, alas, he lived and wrote several decades before your example.

(He took pride in sneaking in the word "gunsel", a slang word for either being a young male prostitute or the "passive" partner in a... well. *cough* The editors, and the readers, thought the word meant gunman, and the word got a new meaning as a result.)

Suddenly, I feel like reading my unabridged Tarzan and Bulldog Drummond novels and ordering the latest re-prints of the first Fu Manchu novels. :smalleek:

Hammett did that solely to see if he could get away with it. His editors kept censoring him, so he started using words to see if they caught it. They didn't, and thus it become slang for "gunman".

And given this explanation came long before "gay" became acceptable, combined with his other attitudes, I"m inclined to believe him.

[Heliomance]

Tommy (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Tommy) can apparently be male or female. Spell it Tommi and make a little heart for the dot over the i. :smalltongue:

Trouble with that is I know a (female) Tommy already, and she's near universally considered rather irritating. I suspect she'd start making noise about it being her name and I'm copying her etc.

[Lady Tialait]

Hmmm, I think there might be some parental issues here..what do you guys think?

Linkage. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Amelia/when-your-7-year-old-son-announces-im-gay_b_1277910.html)

Edit: What I typed could easily be misread. What I meant by it is how excited they seem in the article about him being gay and out at the age of 7. They might have influenced him, he might not even know one way or the other. When I was 7 I thought boys were just awful, that I would never be around them.

That did not last. I think he's just using the wrong word, if it was a 11 or 12 year old, I could believe it. But...7? I have a 3 year old son, and if he said he was gay I'd most likely roll my eyes. If he was 7 I'd just shrug, if he was 11 I'd take it more seriously, if he was 14...well he should know by then.

[Hattish Thing]

Also, working on a new avatar. Google "Inspector Cabanela", and you'll see the most awesome Inspector ever.

I disagree. https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4WuTyVWHBur-i-5nto-hnpdb4Z-lssnHT3vbIKfSWWY3U9if_qw

There will never be a more badass Inspector then Javert from Les Mis. :smalltongue:

[Arachu]

Hmmm, I think there might be some parental issues here..what do you guys think?

Linkage. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Amelia/when-your-7-year-old-son-announces-im-gay_b_1277910.html)

Edit: What I typed could easily be misread. What I meant by it is how excited they seem in the article about him being gay and out at the age of 7. They might have influenced him, he might not even know one way or the other. When I was 7 I thought boys were just awful, that I would never be around them.

That did not last. I think he's just using the wrong word, if it was a 11 or 12 year old, I could believe it. But...7? I have a 3 year old son, and if he said he was gay I'd most likely roll my eyes. If he was 7 I'd just shrug, if he was 11 I'd take it more seriously, if he was 14...well he should know by then.

I knew I liked girls since I was 7 (possibly even 6, I forget when I was in Kindergarten). He could be jumping to the conclusion, but it's plausible that he isn't.

As for 3, I'd have no idea how to react to that. I couldn't say that it's impossible. :shrug:

[Coidzor]

Tommy (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Tommy) can apparently be male or female. Spell it Tommi and make a little heart for the dot over the i. :smalltongue:

So it doesn't have stripperiffic connotations outside of the States when names that normally end with a y have an i and an i alone substituted at the end there? That's interesting to learn.

[noparlpf]

Hmmm, I think there might be some parental issues here..what do you guys think?

Linkage. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Amelia/when-your-7-year-old-son-announces-im-gay_b_1277910.html)

Edit: What I typed could easily be misread. What I meant by it is how excited they seem in the article about him being gay and out at the age of 7. They might have influenced him, he might not even know one way or the other. When I was 7 I thought boys were just awful, that I would never be around them.

That did not last. I think he's just using the wrong word, if it was a 11 or 12 year old, I could believe it. But...7? I have a 3 year old son, and if he said he was gay I'd most likely roll my eyes. If he was 7 I'd just shrug, if he was 11 I'd take it more seriously, if he was 14...well he should know by then.

Interesting article. I too find it difficult to imagine orientation being discernible at seven, but then, I never reached an age of liking girls (or boys). I guess it might be possible to tell before puberty, but I don't feel like it would be really noticeable until puberty kicks in and the sex drive becomes active.

Edit:

So it doesn't have stripperiffic connotations outside of the States when names that normally end with a y have an i and an i alone substituted at the end there? That's interesting to learn.

I grew up knowing a "Danni", so no, I'd say that stereotype doesn't even hold true in the US. I might tend to think that people who make up really oddly-spelled names are hipsters, but not that names ending in "i" go with strippers.


IN OTHER NEWS, I followed the Hanako path in Whoop-dee-doo Girls. It was cute.

[Heliomance]

[COLOR="Navy"]This (http://voice.sngjackie.com/4a.htm) may help a bit (moreso if you start from the start :smalltongue:) (thanks yet a third time, Astrella

Ooh, that looks useful. Thanks!

[KenderWizard]

On potentially gay 7 year old: I dunno, I think it (romantic attraction) kicks in at different times for different kids (or not at all), but generally before full sexual attraction (if it shows up). But we know sexual feelings, or nebulous proto-sexual feelings, can show up in pre-primary children, so why not? Like the mom said, he might "change his mind", by realising he wasn't actually attracted to boy-types. But I think it's completely valid, either as an early realisation or as a phase, and since he knows what the word actually means (as much as kids know these things) and seems happy, I think the parents are doing just fine.


Oh you Irish folks. :b

:smallwink:


Trouble with that is I know a (female) Tommy already, and she's near universally considered rather irritating. I suspect she'd start making noise about it being her name and I'm copying her etc.

Ugh, that's annoying.


So it doesn't have stripperiffic connotations outside of the States when names that normally end with a y have an i and an i alone substituted at the end there? That's interesting to learn.

Nope. Except maybe if the name is already associated with that kind of vibe, like, I dunno, Candy/Candi (giant apologies if anyone's name is Candi). But generally it's just an accepted, usually feminine, alternative spelling. Here, anyway. I've known such names as Sammi or Sandi. Haven't come across Tommi, but I would accept it as a name, guess probably a girl's name.

[Castaras]

I'd say he's going through a phase of liking to say he's gay. Whether he's gay or not, who knows. I mean, I'm 18 and I only realised for certain I was straight when I was about 16, and even now I'm open to the thought that I can't empirically say I'm not Bi considering I might have just not met the right girl. :smalltongue:

But yeah. From my understanding, confusion occurs to a lot of people over the years. Some get a certainty right from the start. No idea which it is with this kid, but doesn't really matter - he's happy, parents don't care, s'all good, right?

[noparlpf]

I'd say he's going through a phase of liking to say he's gay. Whether he's gay or not, who knows. I mean, I'm 18 and I only realised for certain I was straight when I was about 16, and even now I'm open to the thought that I can't empirically say I'm not Bi considering I might have just not met the right girl. :smalltongue:

But yeah. From my understanding, confusion occurs to a lot of people over the years. Some get a certainty right from the start. No idea which it is with this kid, but doesn't really matter - he's happy, parents don't care, s'all good, right?

It's all good as long as he doesn't happily announce it to the wrong people and get beat up.

[Mono Vertigo]

I'm also sceptical, but what I consider to be the most important part of this story is not that a 7-year-old would be certain of his attraction or even know what it is, but that his parents don't think it's a big deal either way.
So whatever happens, yay for that family. :smallsmile:

[pffh]

I can without doubt tell you that deep down I've known that I was bi since I was 4. I just didn't have the words to describe it or any idea of the concept of sexuality or attraction. I kissed my first boy at 8 and then suppressed this through my teens until just a couple of years ago when I started discovering it again and it's been less then two years now since I accepted it. But I've always known.

So yeah it wouldn't surprise me that a kid raised around some gay people (the article mentioned that the parents have some gay friends) would know at an early age.

[Arachu]

So it doesn't have stripperiffic connotations outside of the States when names that normally end with a y have an i and an i alone substituted at the end there? That's interesting to learn.

I think the 'rule' is a little different when the name is usually male. Not sure why... :roach:


Ooh, that looks useful. Thanks!

:smallbiggrin:

(If you find that you can't hit falsetto, I've noticed that you can strengthen the muscles by swallowing repeatedly (I advise touching your Adam's Apple, so you can tell it's moving). That may also help develop pitch without making any noise later on. :smallsmile:)

[Coidzor]

Eh? I thought falsetto was precisely what one didn't want to do.

[Glass Mouse]

On the seven-year old gay boy... I remember kissing another boy when I was... seven? And he very definitely had a crush on me. So I don't find it implausible at all.

What a weird memory. I wonder if someone completely swapped my personality when I turned 9 or something :smalltongue:


I don't get why I can fight and die for my country, and vote for the leaders of my country, but I can't drink or run for president.

Yay, weird rules! I love my country's.

When you're 21, you can get into all the bars.
When you're 18, you can drive a car, vote, and fight for your country.
When you're 16, you can buy alcohol and porn.
When you're 13, you can decide on silly, insignificant questions like God, life and destiny.

And the thread has been allowed to drink since it was made, as long as it could convince a nice, older friend to buy it :smallbiggrin:

[Nix Nihila]

Eh? I thought falsetto was precisely what one didn't want to do.

It's useful to go into falsetto to reduce vibration, and then slowly work down to a more natural voice. It makes it rather awkward to practice at first though.

[Arachu]

Eh? I thought falsetto was precisely what one didn't want to do.

It's a stepping stone, sort of - you use it to judge the upper limit of your pitch and get a feel for resonating in your head (as opposed to your chest).

There's a lot of work to do after that part (Hollywood :smallannoyed:), but because I have such a limited range at the moment it's a milestone for me.

On that note, after recording my voice I find that it's capable of sounding... Slightly less flat. It's kind of annoying actually, but it's progress. :smalltongue:

[supernerd]

Ah. the ancients times when gays were only thought of as promiscuous, soulless, child molesters. When was that, like, the 70s?

Yeah, that ancient period from ~1824 when homosexual and heterosexual were invented, to the 1970s.

Heh, Ancient Greece.

[Triscuitable]

I've been having some weird feelings lately. As in, sexual feelings. The kind that are completely foreign to me. I'm just going to take a while until I can get myself together.

I've always spoken to professionals on Autism, on how sexuality doesn't develop until much further into adolescence. It's an interesting thought.

Anyways, I'll take some time to myself, maybe a week or so.


I disagree. https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4WuTyVWHBur-i-5nto-hnpdb4Z-lssnHT3vbIKfSWWY3U9if_qw

There will never be a more badass Inspector then Javert from Les Mis. :smalltongue:

Did you know that Inspector Cabanela (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeG4V6y5QC4) is the greatest man ever? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tstZfrt_NN4)

[H Birchgrove]

Hammett did that solely to see if he could get away with it. His editors kept censoring him, so he started using words to see if they caught it. They didn't, and thus it become slang for "gunman".

And given this explanation came long before "gay" became acceptable, combined with his other attitudes, I"m inclined to believe him.

This pleases Hammer the Barbarian Librarian student. :smallsmile:

(I guess I let my view on Hammett be too influenced by an otherwise great detective film in which Hammett himself solved a case, which had a male homosexual and/or prostitute who was pretty stereotyped.)

[noparlpf]

Yay, weird rules! I love my country's.

When you're 21, you can get into all the bars.
When you're 18, you can drive a car, vote, and fight for your country.
When you're 16, you can buy alcohol and porn.
When you're 13, you can decide on silly, insignificant questions like God, life and destiny.

And the thread has been allowed to drink since it was made, as long as it could convince a nice, older friend to buy it :smallbiggrin:

I think in New York (where I live now):
When one is 21, one can get into bars and purchase alcoholic beverages.
When one is 18, one can vote, and purchase tobacco products, lottery tickets, porn, lighters, and knives.
When one is 17, one can purchase a ticket to an R-rated movie, or have sex. (Though I don't remember the other specifications of NY age of consent laws; I only read up on CT ones when I lived back there.)
When one is 16, one can get a driving learner's permit; full license depends on various other factors.


I've been having some weird feelings lately. As in, sexual feelings. The kind that are completely foreign to me. I'm just going to take a while until I can get myself together.

I've always spoken to professionals on Autism, on how sexuality doesn't develop until much further into adolescence. It's an interesting thought.

Anyways, I'll take some time to myself, maybe a week or so.

That does sound pretty weird if you're not used to them. I know it would weird me out. Good luck figuring things out.


On a completely random note, hey, KenderWizard, I just remembered that I made friends with a 3.2 billion year old rock a while back. Isn't that neat? :D

[Arachu]

I've been having some weird feelings lately. As in, sexual feelings. The kind that are completely foreign to me. I'm just going to take a while until I can get myself together.

I've always spoken to professionals on Autism, on how sexuality doesn't develop until much further into adolescence. It's an interesting thought.

Anyways, I'll take some time to myself, maybe a week or so.

Not sure if sucks. *Hugs*

In any case, good luck figuring things out. It sounds pretty confusing. :/

[H Birchgrove]

Yeah, that ancient period from ~1824 when homosexual and heterosexual were invented, to the 1970s.

Heh, Ancient Greece.

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Hirschfeld) is one of my heroes. :smallcool:

[Coidzor]

It's a stepping stone, sort of - you use it to judge the upper limit of your pitch and get a feel for resonating in your head (as opposed to your chest).

There's a lot of work to do after that part (Hollywood :smallannoyed:), but because I have such a limited range at the moment it's a milestone for me.

What is the milestone exactly? Were you not able to reach a falsetto before?


On that note, after recording my voice I find that it's capable of sounding... Slightly less flat. It's kind of annoying actually, but it's progress. :smalltongue:

Ugh, I hate vocal flatness. I'm prone to colds and so it's about 50-50 whether I'll just be flat and unable to do anything about it. :smallsigh:

It's good to hear you're overcoming it though. :smallsmile:

[BillyBobJoe]

So... I have a few things that I would like to get off my chest, so I'll put them in a spoiler.

Since I was about... 13, I've always been a little odd about my gender, having occasional bouts of SUDDENLY WRONG BODY, and would randomly go back and forth between cis and trans, ie gender fluidity. Lately, I've been 'settling out' so to speak, on a female gender identity. Sexuality-wise, I'm primarily asexual, but I will have random bouts of bisexuality some days. Anyways, onto the issue. One of my female friends has a huge thing for me (and has for a while), and we were sort of a 'thing'. I do like her quite a bit, but I don't have quite the level of feelings for her as she does for me. I do want to pursue a relationship with her, but I know for a fact that she's straight, and her family is highly religious. So I'm really worried about this, and don't have an idea on how to work with this... :smallfrown: My sexuality/gender-identity has never really come up between us, though half the people I know think that I'm gay, or at least bi (which, really, is a perfectly acceptable assessment, considering the frequency that I hit on guys, and not all that untruthful :smalltongue:), including her for a while, and I'm very reluctant to bring it up, as I don't really know how she'll react...

[Arachu]

What is the milestone exactly? Were you not able to reach a falsetto before?

Ugh, I hate vocal flatness. I'm prone to colds and so it's about 50-50 whether I'll just be flat and unable to do anything about it. :smallsigh:

It's good to hear you're overcoming it though. :smallsmile:
Oh, I couldn't leave semi-oboe before. I sounded like I had a cold and/or was being sarcastic all the time. :smallsigh:

'Course, I usually was being sarcastic, but that's aside from my point... :smalltongue:

I'm making faster progress than I thought I would... Realizing that I was always dimly aware of my gender was the best morale boost I've gotten in... Ever. :smallsmile:


So... I have a few things that I would like to get off my chest, so I'll put them in a spoiler.

Since I was about... 13, I've always been a little odd about my gender, having occasional bouts of SUDDENLY WRONG BODY, and would randomly go back and forth between cis and trans, ie gender fluidity. Lately, I've been 'settling out' so to speak, on a female gender identity. Sexuality-wise, I'm primarily asexual, but I will have random bouts of bisexuality some days. Anyways, onto the issue. One of my female friends has a huge thing for me (and has for a while), and we were sort of a 'thing'. I do like her quite a bit, but I don't have quite the level of feelings for her as she does for me. I do want to pursue a relationship with her, but I know for a fact that she's straight, and her family is highly religious. So I'm really worried about this, and don't have an idea on how to work with this... :smallfrown: My sexuality/gender-identity has never really come up between us, though half the people I know think that I'm gay, or at least bi (which, really, is a perfectly acceptable assessment, considering the frequency that I hit on guys, and not all that untruthful :smalltongue:), including her for a while, and I'm very reluctant to bring it up, as I don't really know how she'll react...

*Hugs* I wish I knew what to say in cases like this... I hope things turn out okay. *More hugs*

[noparlpf]

So... I have a few things that I would like to get off my chest, so I'll put them in a spoiler.

Since I was about... 13, I've always been a little odd about my gender, having occasional bouts of SUDDENLY WRONG BODY, and would randomly go back and forth between cis and trans, ie gender fluidity. Lately, I've been 'settling out' so to speak, on a female gender identity. Sexuality-wise, I'm primarily asexual, but I will have random bouts of bisexuality some days. Anyways, onto the issue. One of my female friends has a huge thing for me (and has for a while), and we were sort of a 'thing'. I do like her quite a bit, but I don't have quite the level of feelings for her as she does for me. I do want to pursue a relationship with her, but I know for a fact that she's straight, and her family is highly religious. So I'm really worried about this, and don't have an idea on how to work with this... :smallfrown: My sexuality/gender-identity has never really come up between us, though half the people I know think that I'm gay, or at least bi (which, really, is a perfectly acceptable assessment, considering the frequency that I hit on guys, and not all that untruthful :smalltongue:), including her for a while, and I'm very reluctant to bring it up, as I don't really know how she'll react...

Sounds complicated. If you're interested in pursuing a relationship with her, I'd suggest talking it out with her, assuming you think she would take it alright.
Good luck! n.n

[Eurus]

Did you know that Inspector Cabanela (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeG4V6y5QC4) is the greatest man ever? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tstZfrt_NN4)

I still side with Javert. (http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=288)

Not even going to mention a certain other inspector... (http://animationaficionados.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/gadget.jpg)

[supernerd]

We just started rehearsing for our school's production of Les Miserables on Tuesday.

And on the subject of falsetto, my general switch is an F, functional switch is a G and situational switch is an A flat, all above middle C. Tenors FTW. So when we were saying our parts at the first day of rehearsal, I was hoping to say "first tenor" in something akin to a low C, but it came out at like an E, the one over an octave higher. I love my voice. I really do, but sometimes... Anyway, so if anyone wants to have my voice to pass as a low alto woman, I'd gladly do it. I'm blessed to have an overlap and not a break when I have to switch, so there is this mix that I can find if I work it just right, so I sound just like a soft spoken woman.

Just a tip, try to find a mix in your voice, it helps. It also helps to have an overlap between head and falsetto. My falsetto starts at my Adam's Apple. It might be chest and falsetto, though. And you just have to be able to get in between the tones, so as to get a smooth woman-like tone. I use it to seduce people IC in my IRL D&D group. It's smoother and less nasal-y than something that would be labeled as a "gay voice"

I really hope I don't sound like I'm bragging, that is not what I want.

[turkishproverb]

This pleases Hammer the Barbarian Librarian student. :smallsmile:

(I guess I let my view on Hammett be too influenced by an otherwise great detective film in which Hammett himself solved a case, which had a male homosexual and/or prostitute who was pretty stereotyped.)

Yea, well that film certainly couldn't have helped.

[Arachu]

We just started rehearsing for our school's production of Les Miserables on Tuesday.

And on the subject of falsetto, my general switch is an F, functional switch is a G and situational switch is an A flat, all above middle C. Tenors FTW. So when we were saying our parts at the first day of rehearsal, I was hoping to say "first tenor" in something akin to a low C, but it came out at like an E, the one over an octave higher. I love my voice. I really do, but sometimes... Anyway, so if anyone wants to have my voice to pass as a low alto woman, I'd gladly do it. I'm blessed to have an overlap and not a break when I have to switch, so there is this mix that I can find if I work it just right, so I sound just like a soft spoken woman.

Just a tip, try to find a mix in your voice, it helps. It also helps to have an overlap between head and falsetto. My falsetto starts at my Adam's Apple. It might be chest and falsetto, though. And you just have to be able to get in between the tones, so as to get a smooth woman-like tone. I use it to seduce people IC in my IRL D&D group. It's smoother and less nasal-y than something that would be labeled as a "gay voice"

I really hope I don't sound like I'm bragging, that is not what I want.

I can barely sound annoyed, and you can pull off 'hot chick'? Lucky. :smallyuk:

(Just kidding, of course. You go, boy! n.n)

Maybe I should mix in some singing study with everything else I've been looking up... Couldn't hurt. I'll do that as I start to learn... Some language. Not sure which one yet (I'll probably pick with a dice-roller). :smalltongue:

[Lady Tialait]

The seven year old will most likely grow out of it. If not the being attracted to other boys, it will be his yelling it to everyone. I don't mean he will get into the closet, I mean...I don't go around yelling "I'm straight!"...he will grow out of yelling it at everyone.

[Nix Nihila]

So... I have a few things that I would like to get off my chest, so I'll put them in a spoiler.

Since I was about... 13, I've always been a little odd about my gender, having occasional bouts of SUDDENLY WRONG BODY, and would randomly go back and forth between cis and trans, ie gender fluidity. Lately, I've been 'settling out' so to speak, on a female gender identity. Sexuality-wise, I'm primarily asexual, but I will have random bouts of bisexuality some days. Anyways, onto the issue. One of my female friends has a huge thing for me (and has for a while), and we were sort of a 'thing'. I do like her quite a bit, but I don't have quite the level of feelings for her as she does for me. I do want to pursue a relationship with her, but I know for a fact that she's straight, and her family is highly religious. So I'm really worried about this, and don't have an idea on how to work with this... :smallfrown: My sexuality/gender-identity has never really come up between us, though half the people I know think that I'm gay, or at least bi (which, really, is a perfectly acceptable assessment, considering the frequency that I hit on guys, and not all that untruthful :smalltongue:), including her for a while, and I'm very reluctant to bring it up, as I don't really know how she'll react...

As a fellow genderfluid person (although I rarely ever identify as anything but female these days), you have my sympathies. Unfortunately, I don't have any useful advice, but I do hope everything works out. Hugs if you want them.

[SiuiS]

It's Genesis 38:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+38%3A8-10&version=NIV), unless I'm grossly misunderstanding you.

Well, yes. My point was that discussion wouldn't be a good idea.


Where did the whole discussion of where cultural taboos about sexual practices start? I can't seem to find the start of the thread

Something about sodomy. Not entirely sure myself anymore.

[Tangent]

Because you're talking about the possibility of an entity which actually lacks depth and only has the window dressing if we're still following the same line of thought that started all of this.

Keveak asserted that maybe being shallow and lacking depth and just being nothing more than a collection of masks was actually a good thing and was a valid answer as to someone's "real self."

I replied that I rather doubted that such a person could truly exist, as even the most consummate skin-changer has something underneath it all. *If you want to start to try to psychoanalyze me, I suppose I could share that I also find the idea rather demeaning to the human spirit and cold comfort as something said to reassure someone who is re-examining their entire persona and life.

And then you jumped in and here we are.

So it's more that I find your usage of the word complex to be inappropriate.

Can't for the life of me figure out how you think your first point runs counter to my stance when it pretty much just re-encapsulates my initial assertion from the standpoint that having a lot of hats leads to depth rather than going with the original stance that lacking depth is OK because one has a lot of hats to make up for it or my response to the original stance which was that I rather doubted any human being could truly exist without something more than just a bunch of lousy hats to their personality and self.

See, that's your problem. Keveak said maybe it isn't just being shallow and a liar at all. And you are interpreting it as 'being a shallow pretender is a good thing' and trying to refute that. (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you Keveak; not my intention!)

What is the difference between a man who has no substance and can pretend well, and a man who is easily able to adapt to a multitude of social situations so well even he is worried he is losing himself? Because technically, there isn't any except how I phrased it1. The negative spin on the first one implies it's a negative state, the second implies its a more positive state. Hence "it's all in the presentation". The phrase "just a bunch of lousy hats" really plays down exactly how deep a 'hat' can be.

Although really, you should have figured that out as I said as much in response to Al'iz'dheg directly in the same post. I do hope you didn't just scroll through all the green to see if I mentioned you specifically :smallwink: :smalltongue:


:smallredface: I can't really think of any response to this other than shyly happy squeeing. Thanks everyone for your kind compliments (even if they are unfounded flattery :smalltongue:)

I've been thinking about androgyny and such, and as far as I can see there's a problem. If you start presenting as the opposite sex, it's obvious what you're doing. But androgyny, by its very nature, is more subtle. It's all very well to try and avoid giving off gender cues, but people that know you already know what sex you are and are going to see that no matter what. If you swap completely, then eventually the new gender cues will override the old and perceptions will change. But if you're not giving off any, then there's no new input to override the old perceptions.

I'm not one to say otherwise. In the time Ive been lurking, I always thought you were a girl and got really confused when you were called a guy by some of the posters. The pictures likewise; you honestly looked more like a girl with a beard than a guy.

Which, really, just combines with my response to Coidzor to show that I am terrible at hard limits.


I love skirts. And dresses. A lot.

That said I'd do my best not to flash my undies at anyone. O_o

I always liked dresses. Though, really, I am just in love with swishy fabrics.

Swishy~ swishy~

Nice look by the way.


I'm surprised people are singling out my arms as tells. That's not something I'd thought of aside from shaving my forearms. What is it about them that gives it away?

Addendum to Asta: despite my goal being androgyny, you're not going to offend me by saying I look female or anything. Just as long as it's true! What I'm looking for most is honesty.

The way you square them. Masculine hand gestures involve angles and lines, more than curves. In the picture where you are hugging yourself (and bear with me, this is all from memory after first reading your post a couple days ago) you have both shoulders at relatively the same height, and your arms cross directly in front of you in a rectangular shield.


I feel even more driven to drink than usual after a crummy dating experience this week. *I could use some gay Internet hugs. *:smallfrown:

I am afraid all I have to offer are nongay hugs. Would that be sufficient to your needs?
*hug!*


Eugh the genderqueer is so broken I mean what other prestige class combines all the best features of two base classes. Except of course the bisexual (Double sexuality progression!? Were the designers mad?)

Eh, it's all about action economy. You'd till only get one action per round, regardless of target gender.


Wait, how do you progress in sexuality in the first place?

Actually, don't answer that.

By experience, just like every other class, silly.

There's a joke here about noncombat encounters that I'm not qualified to make. Lix, wanna field this one?

[Troll Stuff]

I appreciate a good story as much as the next person but one that exploits handicapped people for their disabilities disgusts me. The characters aren't Sasuka or Kim or whatever, they're girl-with-one-arm-and-an-eyepatch or girl-who-is-emotionally-traumatized-but-will-sleep-with-protagonist.

Sure, except that is exactly what the game does NOT do. It is not exploitative, it does not reduce characters to their disabilities, and it doesn't sexualised said disabilities either. You've got no ground to stand on.



do people masturbate to this? yes? Ok. *
I'm not going to Dignify that with a response

You do know this is the Internet right? Where this rule applies to literally everything?


And so soon we will crash my pretty new thread over the edge of a cliff because we tried to drive by committee. *sniff* I will miss you thread.

In other news... Raaagh so angry over news stories lately. I can't believe what it's socially acceptable for people to say about long term loving relationships in this day and age. And then there's the trial for the guy who videoed his roommate and may have shamed him into suicide a year or two back.

Yikes. That does sound rather depressing :smalleek:
On the upside, as folks continue to age, the number of people with hard, irrevocable stances in utter opposition decreases. That's... Kinda positive. Morbid, but positive!



On the plus side, planet of gay psychics. A well reversed story showing prejudice for how messed up it can be put a nice note on my day yesterday.

Gay psychics? I'll have to look into that. What would this story be called?

-

What's that? Locked thread? Like that's gonna stop me.


Indeed, when this comes up, I'm always surprised that this hasn't been covered abundantly out in the wilds, or at least the seedy underbelly of urban dictionary.

That always confused me as well. Why is dude masculine? Doesn't dude mean, literally, an infected hair on an elephant's arse? Hm. I suspect not, cursory look shows it comes from German for fool. Fool is pretty gender neutral isn't it?


No one liked my prestige class?

Gimme time to get back to the thread, mate!
In truth, it seems a bit quick on the draw. Wouldn't bottom surgery come later in the progression? Or I suppose have several levels where augmentation occurs, and have a list of augmentations which would include said surgery. It's odd to offer a mechanical bonus with the option of not getting said bonus. Allowing a lateral choice would work better mechanically, and (here I'm out on a limb) probably do a better job of conveying the multiple routes it could take.


My humble thanks for the gay hugs I have received. To clarify, the hugger need not be gay: merely the spirit of the hug.

Oh good! *hugs again*


& not the wolf whistles and penguin pebbles you deserved?

Dare I ask? What exactly is a penguin pebble?


Notice how he complains not talking about queer stuff, and immediately gets into fueling the conversation he complained about. Obvious trolling.

I don't know. It could also just be that Sun was challenged and responded antagonistically, regardless of topic. It matches what I know of human behavior.

Not that I disagree with you, exactly. Given post count and attitude I do indeed think it was a trolling. But hard to say objectively.


Body weight issues hugs for you three! And wisdom teeth removal hugs for Nope! I remember getting mine out; total pain!

Better than leaving them in though. Apparently wisdom teeth utterly fail at their presumed function. Wisdom teeth just push other teeth out of proper alignment and cause fractures.


If it's important to people to keep talking about it, could you take it to spoilers?

oki doki loki.


It shouldn't really be a Prestige class, let alone a 10 level one. Most Prestige Classes you can't enter until Sixth level, so you won't be able to totally transition until 16th level. Given that most characters are pretty much gods by that point, it seems odd that they've only transitioned then. It would make much more sense as a base class.

It's all about optimization. Prestige classes can be accessed as easy as level two if you're hungry enough for it. And the best optimization is usually used to achieve otherwise-suboptimal mechanical results for fluff reasons, so it fits.


I call everyone I'm on roughly even ground with "dude" or "man." The latter is a little harder to rationalize as a gender neutral pronoun, admittedly.

Dunno. Man originally was used in the same way as human, wasn't it? You could just use man as acknowledgement that the person is considered a person, and on equal footing with you.


Interesting article. I too find it difficult to imagine orientation being discernible at seven, but then, I never reached an age of liking girls (or boys). I guess it might be possible to tell before puberty, but I don't feel like it would be really noticeable until puberty kicks in and the sex drive becomes active.

Depends on the person. I liked the ladyfolk back before I could really differentiate between ladyfolk and non-ladyfolk. I just mentally substituted non-ladyfolk parts for one of 'Em when I thought about it. It's quite possible that a seven-year old would know that they have a larger interest in their own sex than the opposite.



IN OTHER NEWS, I followed the Hanako path in Whoop-dee-doo Girls. It was cute.

The way this is phrased is hilarious, thank you :smallbiggrin:


So... I have a few things that I would like to get off my chest, so I'll put them in a spoiler.

Since I was about... 13, I've always been a little odd about my gender, having occasional bouts of SUDDENLY WRONG BODY, and would randomly go back and forth between cis and trans, ie gender fluidity. Lately, I've been 'settling out' so to speak, on a female gender identity. Sexuality-wise, I'm primarily asexual, but I will have random bouts of bisexuality some days. Anyways, onto the issue. One of my female friends has a huge thing for me (and has for a while), and we were sort of a 'thing'. I do like her quite a bit, but I don't have quite the level of feelings for her as she does for me. I do want to pursue a relationship with her, but I know for a fact that she's straight, and her family is highly religious. So I'm really worried about this, and don't have an idea on how to work with this... :smallfrown: My sexuality/gender-identity has never really come up between us, though half the people I know think that I'm gay, or at least bi (which, really, is a perfectly acceptable assessment, considering the frequency that I hit on guys, and not all that untruthful :smalltongue:), including her for a while, and I'm very reluctant to bring it up, as I don't really know how she'll react...

The answer is simple, but hard to execute.
The point of a relationship is to be I comfortable in a position that is otherwise vulnerable. So first you should go over exactly how much you're willing to invest. Decide if the worst case scenario, which sounds like her telling your folks and everyone hating you, is at all likely, and worth the best case scenario.

That's pretty blegh, but it's the easy part. The hard part is telling her exactly what's going on in clear language, and being open with her so she can make an informed decision.

Which is damned hard, in truth. But it's the way to go.



1: proficiency cannot be gauged, based on the statements given so 'one is a pretender and the other is actually skilled' falls apart; you rely entirely on the speaker to color how you determine it.

[Nix Nihila]

[Troll Stuff]


Sure, except that is exactly what the game does NOT do. It is not exploitative, it does not reduce characters to their disabilities, and it doesn't sexualised said disabilities either. You've got no ground to stand on.



You do know this is the Internet right? Where this rule applies to literally everything?

I hate to open up this can of worms again, but can we stop calling Sun a troll please? Sure, they didn't introduce themselves into the thread in a way very likely to produce a warm welcoming, but the loathing that some of you seem to be expressing makes me rather uncomfortable. I won't make any judgements on the game, not having played it, but some of the concerns Sun raised are valid (whether or not they apply to the game is a separate issue), and while I don't think Sun handled it entirely appropriately, screaming "Troll! Troll!" isn't exactly appropriate either.

[golentan]

Mildly tipsy, and sated.

's been a good day.

[turkishproverb]

Good for you. :smallsmile:

[Arachu]

Cheers, mate. :smallsmile:


Something about sodomy. Not entirely sure myself anymore.

Nope, Kindablue and I were discussing Dante's Inferno for some reason or another - wait, I got it, someone brought up a quote I forget, and someone else responded by quoting the inscription on the gates to (Dantean) Hell. Anywho, one of us wondered if homosexuals were explicitly condemned in it (I incorrectly asserted that it was ambiguous, though it's worth noting that his friend's "sin" wasn't described (to my knowledge)), and Blue linked something that discussed the implications of more moderate Sodomites receiving considerably less harsh punishments.

Also, Supernerd commented at some point. *Hugs everyone she forgot*

... *Gasp* ohmygod I just referred to myself with a feminine pronoun without a second thought! :smallbiggrin:


The way you square them. Masculine hand gestures involve angles and lines, more than curves. In the picture where you are hugging yourself (and bear with me, this is all from memory after first reading your post a couple days ago) you have both shoulders at relatively the same height, and your arms cross directly in front of you in a rectangular shield.

That... That's a really good point. Why haven't I thought of that... Gah, that's gonna be harder to work on than my voice (I move like a robot drill sergeant :smallfurious:).

... Though I could just go for the tough look... Eh, I could take that or leave it. :shrug:


Eh, it's all about action economy. You'd till only get one action per round, regardless of target gender.

The extra HD and free Dexterity bonus really tip the scales, though. Especially if you're playing a Ranger and took Weapon Finesse...


Yikes. That does sound rather depressing :smalleek:
On the upside, as folks continue to age, the number of people with hard, irrevocable stances in utter opposition decreases. That's... Kinda positive. Morbid, but positive!

Not in Illinois... 70's belief structures don't mix very well with 90's flippancy, I tell you. :/


Gay psychics? I'll have to look into that. What would this story be called?

-

What's that? Locked thread? Like that's gonna stop me.

My money's on Best Story Ever. :smalltongue:



The way this is phrased is hilarious, thank you :smallbiggrin:

I still need to download that game... But there are so many numbers in my head. But it sounds fun... But I wanna divide things... :dilemma:


I hate to open up this can of worms again, but can we stop calling Sun a troll please? Sure, they didn't introduce themselves into the thread in a way very likely to produce a warm welcoming, but the loathing that some of you seem to be expressing makes me rather uncomfortable. I won't make any judgements on the game, not having played it, but some of the concerns Sun raised are valid (whether or not they apply to the game is a separate issue), and while I don't think Sun handled it entirely appropriately, screaming "Troll! Troll!" isn't exactly appropriate either.

I'll have to agree with Nix... S/he may have just generalized as soon as s/he read the word "eroge". People seem to do that a lot. :/

It's not really fair in the company of people who'd be offended by something offensive, but it got pretty personal... *hugs Sun if s/he wasn't a troll and is reading this*

Also *hugs Triscuitable*. Hope things haven't gotten too weird on you.

[Heliomance]

In class in girl mode again. Forgot that this class has someone in it that I know more than in passing yet not well enough to predict what she thinks of such things. Currently hoping she didn't notice due to my coat :s

[Rappy]

In class in girl mode again. Forgot that this class has someone in it that I know more than in passing yet not well enough to predict what she thinks of such things. Currently hoping she didn't notice due to my coat :s
Best of luck to you. While you are ultimately trying for androgyny rather than trans* status, I still consider you pretty darn brave to do what you're doing.

[Heliomance]

Best of luck to you. While you are ultimately trying for androgyny rather than trans* status, I still consider you pretty darn brave to do what you're doing.

It's a lot easier for me than it would be for many people. I apparently pass well enough that strangers don't give me a second glance, and my primary friendship group already contains two or three trans folk, and as far as I can tell doesn't think it's any more noteworthy than a new haircut.

[The Succubus]

Can I ask you a deeply personal question?

Do you have a trillby like the one your avatar has? Because the next time you post a piccie of yourself, you should wear one. I reckon you'd look good in it. :smallbiggrin:

[Heliomance]

Can I ask you a deeply personal question?

Do you have a trillby like the one your avatar has? Because the next time you post a piccie of yourself, you should wear one. I reckon you'd look good in it. :smallbiggrin:

I've lost it :(

But yes, my avatar is based off a real photo of me. I like hats.

[Asta Kask]

Broken record - I'm feeling worse and won't be posting much over the next week or so.

[noparlpf]

Broken record - I'm feeling worse and won't be posting much over the next week or so.

:<
Feel better soon! *hug*

[The Succubus]

Promise us you'll look after yourself while you're not online. :smallfrown:

Promise.

[blackfox]

I think in New York *snip*16 to own knives here. Not quite sure about buying one? Bought mine in Virginia, where the laws probably 'over 8,' when I was 17.

Also Asta (and everyone, really)--I saw Natalie Reed's most recent blog post (about us!) and is awesome.

[Kindablue]

Keveak

That always confused me as well. Why is dude masculine? Doesn't dude mean, literally, an infected hair on an elephant's arse? Hm. I suspect not, cursory look shows it comes from German for fool. Fool is pretty gender neutral isn't it?

*snip*

Dunno. Man originally was used in the same way as human, wasn't it? You could just use man as acknowledgement that the person is considered a person, and on equal footing with you.

I meant to say this when Keveak brought it up, but something happened and I got distracted; then it got brought up again and just as I was about to hit send, the nigh hurricane force winds outside knocked my electricity out. Wah-wah-wah. Anyway, what a word used to mean or what a word "actually" means don't matter in a modern context. Turnip could have meant "a genitial wart" 300 years ago, and using that definition today would be a misuse of the word. The question that should get raised isn't what it ought to mean, but rather how people use it. Is a commonly accepted definition of dude and man "a human the speaker is on even footing with"? Where I'm from it can be used like that without raising any eyebrows, but it's also commonly used with tongue in cheek when it's clearly not addressing a man.

[noparlpf]

16 to own knives here. Not quite sure about buying one? Bought mine in Virginia, where the laws probably 'over 8,' when I was 17.

Also Asta (and everyone, really)--I saw Natalie Reed's most recent blog post (about us!) and is awesome.

Huh. Well, we have some silly law about needing to be eighteen to buy box cutters because we're scared of terrorism or something. I might be mixing NY and MA up for the pocket-knives things because I go to school in MA and I know you need to be eighteen to buy a knife in MA. (Last year I had to buy a knife for my roommate because he wasn't eighteen. He's older than I am.)

[KenderWizard]

On a completely random note, hey, KenderWizard, I just remembered that I made friends with a 3.2 billion year old rock a while back. Isn't that neat? :D

OHMYGOSH THAT'S SO COOL! Where? Was it in Canada? They've got some sweet cratonic continental shield crust up there. Was it a gneiss? Was it a nice gneiss? I bet it was super-metamorphosed!



*snip*
Anyway, what a word used to mean or what a word "actually" means don't matter in a modern context. Turnip could have meant "a genitial wart" 300 years ago, and using that definition today would be a misuse of the word. The question that should get raised isn't what it ought to mean, but rather how people use it. Is a commonly accepted definition of dude and man "a human the speaker is on even footing with"? Where I'm from it can be used like that without raising any eyebrows, but it's also commonly used with tongue in cheek when it's clearly not addressing a man.

I was about to say the same thing, in reply to SiuiS. Language is made by people, and constantly changed by people, and that's what it's for. We use it for what we need words for right now, and words drop out and come in and change meaning, sometimes over and over again. Since "dude", "guy" and especially "man" are primarily used to mean "male (likely teen or older) human", that's what they mean now. It doesn't matter if (hypothetically) "man" originally meant "the girliest female girl-woman you ever saw doing womanly girl things" and was applied ironically, or spread out and got applied elsewhere. It means what it means now.

I would be happy if "man" and "men" became gender neutral and people used "were" and "wif" or "wer" and "wo" or whatever prefixes or suffixes they liked. But unless almost everyone uses "man" to mean "person" and almost everyone uses the other markers, until then it's gendered male as default. And it's the same, except less hypothetical, with "dude" (and "guys"). Since most people use and understand it to mean "male person", that's what it means. You can't fully use it in a gender-neutral way, since your audience is quite likely to be interpreting it as meaning a male person. I mean, you can use it any way you like, but unless you make it clear, other people aren't going to assume the less prevalent meaning.


Broken record - I'm feeling worse and won't be posting much over the next week or so.

Asta, don't you dare make me have to make you another card!

:smallwink:
:smallsmile:
:smallfrown:

*hugs* Feel better and look after yourself.

[bluewind95]

Broken record - I'm feeling worse and won't be posting much over the next week or so.

Asta, please feel better. We're all rooting for you, we really are.

[Caustic Soda]

*Hugs Asta*

Feel better soon, and may the card KenderWizard made help you smile.

edit: that's good to hear, Asta. But even if you only have slight troubles, we can still offer you digital hugs if you'd like some :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

I'm nowhere near as bad as I was last time. I just need some time to recover from a few things that happened.

[H Birchgrove]

Yea, well that film certainly couldn't have helped.

Found it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammett_%28film%29)


Broken record - I'm feeling worse and won't be posting much over the next week or so.

:smallfrown: *hugs* Get well soon.

[Kindablue]

*snip*
Right. I'm going to keep misusing it, though.


I'm nowhere near as bad as I was last time. I just need some time to recover from a few things that happened.

Good luck.

[THAC0]

Dare I ask? What exactly is a penguin pebble?



Ooo ooo something I know the answer to! ...I think.

Did you see Happy Feet? Anyway, some kinds of penguins give pebbles to their sweehearts.

[Arachu]

I'm nowhere near as bad as I was last time. I just need some time to recover from a few things that happened.

*Hugs* We're here for you, man. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Good luck, Asta.
Ooo ooo something I know the answer to! ...I think.

Did you see Happy Feet? Anyway, some kinds of penguins give pebbles to their sweehearts.

As long as we don't go into an in-depth discussion of the Don Bluth Movie. :smalleek:

[KenderWizard]

Ooo ooo something I know the answer to! ...I think.

Did you see Happy Feet? Anyway, some kinds of penguins give pebbles to their sweehearts.

Oh wow, that is so adorable! I gave a pebble to my sweetheart once... #geologistsrock

In other news, apparently some rich poopy heads in my university want to set up a circle jerk frat house. This makes me sad.

[turkishproverb]

Found it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammett_%28film%29)



:smallfrown: *hugs* Get well soon.

...Yea, that'd do it. That film had a few problems.

*Hugs Asta* Take care of yourself.

[Astrella]

I just resonated with the roof of my mouth. That's halfway to the feminine range! :smallbiggrin:

*Hugsplosion*

:smallbiggrin:


Oh yeah, missed this. Yes, I think I will. I've been wearing blouses and women's jeans in public for a while, and I've now started shaving and applying foundation every day. From there, well, all that's needed to project "girl" is breasts and a high ponytail. It's surprised me how little I need to change to swap between female and feminine. I suppose my day to day presentation has been reasonably androgynous for a while, I just haven't noticed as I tend to see a guy in the mirror unless the female presentation is quite overt.

I have an MtF friend who doesn't use her chesticles any more, so I'm hoping to borrow them soon.

That's cool.


So... I have a few things that I would like to get off my chest, so I'll put them in a spoiler.

Since I was about... 13, I've always been a little odd about my gender, having occasional bouts of SUDDENLY WRONG BODY, and would randomly go back and forth between cis and trans, ie gender fluidity. Lately, I've been 'settling out' so to speak, on a female gender identity. Sexuality-wise, I'm primarily asexual, but I will have random bouts of bisexuality some days. Anyways, onto the issue. One of my female friends has a huge thing for me (and has for a while), and we were sort of a 'thing'. I do like her quite a bit, but I don't have quite the level of feelings for her as she does for me. I do want to pursue a relationship with her, but I know for a fact that she's straight, and her family is highly religious. So I'm really worried about this, and don't have an idea on how to work with this... :smallfrown: My sexuality/gender-identity has never really come up between us, though half the people I know think that I'm gay, or at least bi (which, really, is a perfectly acceptable assessment, considering the frequency that I hit on guys, and not all that untruthful :smalltongue:), including her for a while, and I'm very reluctant to bring it up, as I don't really know how she'll react...

Gender woes suck. :s
Sexuality is fluid though, so, you never know, you know?

Re: Dude
I feel it depends on the context; but the common use of it is still gendered, so I wouldn't use it in a gender-neutral context myself unless under friends / people who are aware of that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

So, therapist meeting went well. Got quite emotional, but I think it was a productive talk. Now I have time to finally go clothes shopping before my next meeting. >.>

[Coidzor]

I'll just lea- (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12783776&postcount=772)


In other news, apparently some rich poopy heads in my university want to set up a circle jerk frat house. This makes me sad.

-wait, what the hell? :smallconfused:

[turkishproverb]

Thanks for the link coidzor.

[Coidzor]

Well, you know, above my paygrade and all that jazz. :smallwink:

[noparlpf]

OHMYGOSH THAT'S SO COOL! Where? Was it in Canada? They've got some sweet cratonic continental shield crust up there. Was it a gneiss? Was it a nice gneiss? I bet it was super-metamorphosed!

Uhh. I can't remember where it was from; my Bio prof passed it around in class last semester, and because I sat way up at the back, I was the last one to get it and I held onto it for the period. But yeah, it was really neat. Kind of awe-inspiring to think that things can last that long and be real and tangible.


I'm nowhere near as bad as I was last time. I just need some time to recover from a few things that happened.

*hugs*
Want to talk about it? Would that help?


Oh wow, that is so adorable! I gave a pebble to my sweetheart once... #geologistsrock

That's kind of adorable.
I used to carry a broken-off piece of the big rock on the corner where I confessed to my ex.


In other news, apparently some rich poopy heads in my university want to set up a circle jerk frat house. This makes me sad.

Ew. I'll sign the petition against this.

[Arachu]

So, therapist meeting went well. Got quite emotional, but I think it was a productive talk. Now I have time to finally go clothes shopping before my next meeting. >.>

*Hugs* :smallbiggrin:


I'll just lea- (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12783776&postcount=772)

It is so hard not to (vicariously) cuss those girls out... So. ******. Hard. :smallannoyed:

I'm not sure if I' be able to contribute anything other than *hugs* and quite a bit of sympathy... I hope things turn out okay. :/

[H Birchgrove]

...Yea, that'd do it. That film had a few problems.

You've seen it?

When I saw it, I didn't think so much about the "gunsel", apart from "well, this wasn't a positive portrayal of gays", though I later reflected more on it. The Asian-Americans seemed to there to give an exotic ambiance like the pulp novels of that period, though the Asian woman who was involved in the case had a genuinely tragic background, IIRC. Then again, I feel I know too little about the Tongs and Chinatowns IRL to give a fair assessment.

I just realised how little I remember of the plot. :smallsigh:


In other news, apparently some rich poopy heads in my university want to set up a circle jerk frat house. This makes me sad.

Are *all* university fraternities (in UK and USA) like those in films and popular culture? :smallconfused: (We don't really have those here; our student associations generally have both male and female members.)



-----------------------------------------------------------------

So, therapist meeting went well. Got quite emotional, but I think it was a productive talk. Now I have time to finally go clothes shopping before my next meeting. >.>

Yay! Glad to hear it finally went all right for you (more or less). :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Are *all* university fraternities (in UK and USA) like those in films and popular culture?

Very few fraternities, even the ones that party, really approach the depths of pop cultural frattishness. Then there's the fraternities which don't party, the academic fraternities which are completely different animals to the Old Boys' club, the female fraternities that we call sororities except for the one or two that do call themselves female fraternities, and the campuses where the percentage of people on campus involved in so-called "Greek Life" exceeds 50% without the demographics of the university being any different from any other university aside from the proportion of "greek" to non-greek.

So, no, *all* fraternities are not media exaggerations of the worst of the bunch.

Not all women think the same, either, and that tired old lie comes up a heck of a whole lot more often than pop cultural frattishness. :smalltongue:

Hence my question with its implied desire for illumination, elucidation, or even just some more details for clarity's sake.

[turkishproverb]

on frats: I'll just say that the ones near my school were called "Rapehouse" for a reason, and that no, the university didn't really step in to do anything.

Because evidently frats are sacrosanct there.


You've seen it?

When I saw it, I didn't think so much about the "gunsel", apart from "well, this wasn't a positive portrayal of gays", though I later reflected more on it. The Asian-Americans seemed to there to give an exotic ambiance like the pulp novels of that period, though the Asian woman who was involved in the case had a genuinely tragic background, IIRC. Then again, I feel I know too little about the Tongs and Chinatowns IRL to give a fair assessment.

I just realised how little I remember of the plot. :smallsigh:

Once. A while back.

More than that would take much longer to discuss.

[Arachu]

Aaaand depressed again. I hoped I'd at least see it coming this time, but in all fairness I probably should have. :smallsigh:

What's more, dysphoria's changed up a bit... There are no words to describe the itching. >:/

[KenderWizard]

I'm going to spoiler (I KEEP TYING "SPOILDER" THAT'S NOT A WORD!) the frat house discussion, because it's fairly off topic and also, ugh.

I don't know all the details or how exaggerated the story I heard was, but the gist seems to be that a group of rich guys who are all friends and who "share common interests, such as fine dining, horseracing and automobiles" (who says "automobiles" in Ireland?) have decided they should make a frat house, with a link to a snooty US frat house. The aim of this house will be for upper-class rich white young men to meet other upper-class rich white young men, and older men, without the terrible impositions of poor people and/or women, except maybe some pretty girls as quote "arm candy". It will function as a networking thing so that poor people and women don't get the same opportunities as the clearly more deserving rich white men when it comes to making contacts with people in business. Sorry, men in business. Who are rich, and white.

There are a few points to make here.
1) People are allowed to do what they like, but they are not allowed to use the name of the college or have a college-affiliated group without following rules and coming under the remit of one of the capitated bodies. The capitated bodies don't allow groups who put restrictions on entry. For example, the Muslim Student Society is not exclusive to students who are Muslim.
2) I would still have a problem with the rich-people club if it wasn't explicitly sexist.
3) I would still have a problem with an explicitly sexist club (obviously!) if it wasn't implicitly classist. (You need to contribute money to join and the idea is to have meetings in fancy restaurants and at the races and stuff.)
4) From what I can tell, the idea of Greek Houses (which I don't have an inherent problem with, I've just heard so so many rape stories from them, and also, why are they still so much gender segregated?) is instead of student societies. If you want to be a rich douche, just join the Buisness Society (or whatever) and go to fancy restaurants with your rich friends. Don't push it in everyone's face.
5) Seriously, WTF?!



Uhh. I can't remember where it was from; my Bio prof passed it around in class last semester, and because I sat way up at the back, I was the last one to get it and I held onto it for the period. But yeah, it was really neat. Kind of awe-inspiring to think that things can last that long and be real and tangible.

That's kind of adorable.
I used to carry a broken-off piece of the big rock on the corner where I confessed to my ex.


That's so cool! I've met meteorites, similarly old rocks, and thin sections of moon rocks!

Aw, that's adorable too!

[Copper]

on frats: I'll just say that the ones near my school were called "Rapehouse" for a reason, and that no, the university didn't really step in to do anything.

Because evidently frats are sacrosanct there.

And this is how frats get a bad name. :smallmad:
Ugh I hatte it when unversities don't prevent things like this. Rape culture makes me angry.

[Mono Vertigo]

on frats: I'll just say that the ones near my school were called "Rapehouse" for a reason, and that no, the university didn't really step in to do anything.

:smalleek:
Sorry, but I don't think I'll ever get closer than a handful kilometers interval near that place.
WHAT THE FRAG IS WRONG WITH THEM

[noparlpf]

I'm going to spoiler (I KEEP TYPING "SPOILDER" THAT'S NOT A WORD!) the frat house discussion, because it's fairly off topic and also, ugh.

I don't know all the details or how exaggerated the story I heard was, but the gist seems to be that a group of rich guys who are all friends and who "share common interests, such as fine dining, horseracing and automobiles" (who says "automobiles" in Ireland?) have decided they should make a frat house, with a link to a snooty US frat house. The aim of this house will be for upper-class rich white young men to meet other upper-class rich white young men, and older men, without the terrible impositions of poor people and/or women, except maybe some pretty girls as quote "arm candy". It will function as a networking thing so that poor people and women don't get the same opportunities as the clearly more deserving rich white men when it comes to making contacts with people in business. Sorry, men in business. Who are rich, and white.

There are a few points to make here.
1) People are allowed to do what they like, but they are not allowed to use the name of the college or have a college-affiliated group without following rules and coming under the remit of one of the capitated bodies. The capitated bodies don't allow groups who put restrictions on entry. For example, the Muslim Student Society is not exclusive to students who are Muslim.
2) I would still have a problem with the rich-people club if it wasn't explicitly sexist.
3) I would still have a problem with an explicitly sexist club (obviously!) if it wasn't implicitly classist. (You need to contribute money to join and the idea is to have meetings in fancy restaurants and at the races and stuff.)
4) From what I can tell, the idea of Greek Houses (which I don't have an inherent problem with, I've just heard so so many rape stories from them, and also, why are they still so much gender segregated?) is instead of student societies. If you want to be a rich douche, just join the Business Society (or whatever) and go to fancy restaurants with your rich friends. Don't push it in everyone's face.
5) Seriously, WTF?!




That's so cool! I've met meteorites, similarly old rocks, and thin sections of moon rocks!

Aw, that's adorable too!

Yeah, I definitely disapprove of this frat. But seeing as they're rich they'll probably get around that first rule you mentioned, where college-affiliated groups can't be exclusive. So is it, like, 1950 over there? Or maybe the early 1800s? There is so much wrong with that kind of world view in this day and age.
I am slightly tempted to look in on some frats when I transfer next semester, just to see what they're like firsthand. I've heard too many rape/hazing/accidental murder stories about frats. (But really I just want to get in a fight with at least a dozen guys at once in my first week of school. Why else would I do something like go to a frat house?)

Rocks are pretty neat. Geology seems like a good field for meeting a lot of different rocks.

[Qaera]

Aaaand depressed again. I hoped I'd at least see it coming this time, but in all fairness I probably should have. :smallsigh:

What's more, dysphoria's changed up a bit... There are no words to describe the itching. >:/
I know that feel bro sis. Don't really know how to fix it though.

~ ♅

[KenderWizard]

Farts. I mean, frats. :smalltongue: Heehee toilet humour!
Also, trigger stuff.


And this is how frats get a bad name. :smallmad:
Ugh I hatte it when unversities don't prevent things like this. Rape culture makes me angry.

Seconded. The most obvious college-related rape culture stuff here are some of the parties. Apparently never go to a foam party: someone usually rapes someone else (usually a drunk fresher girl) under the foam.


Yeah, I definitely disapprove of this frat. But seeing as they're rich they'll probably get around that first rule you mentioned, where college-affiliated groups can't be exclusive. So is it, like, 1950 over there? Or maybe the early 1800s? There is so much wrong with that kind of world view in this day and age.
I am slightly tempted to look in on some frats when I transfer next semester, just to see what they're like firsthand. I've heard too many rape/hazing/accidental murder stories about frats. (But really I just want to get in a fight with at least a dozen guys at once in my first week of school. Why else would I do something like go to a frat house?)


Maybe you should rethink the fighting with a dozen guys plan?

I don't think you can pin this behaviour on Ireland, since they're emulating a specific US frat. (By the way, I should go look up to see if there's any more drama. Maybe it'll all have been an awful joke.)

And they can't get around the rule by being rich, unless I suppose they bribe one of the capitated bodies, but they'd have to bribe over half a committee, and it would be blatantly obvious that something funny had happened when they were recognised despite blatantly breaking college rules.

I think this is a result of that idea held by some super-privileged people that things were better in the "good old days" when they had, like, ALL the privilege, instead of the halfway fair (if imperfect) system we've got now. You know, the "Ah, for the days when men were men and there wasn't any of that ludicrous political correctness, and people just did right by their neighbours." by which they often mean "Ah, for the days when women were second-class citizens, we didn't have to pretend not to be racist or classist or sexist or any other -ist, and you got ahead exclusively by knowing the right people." I mean, things aren't perfect now, and some things were better in certain places in the past, like having a tight-knit neighbourhood community as the norm, but things are so much better now than in, say, the 1950s (which are often idealised), especially for anyone at all who isn't a straight, cis, white, rich, abled, neurotypical, upper-middle-class or higher man. Which is almost everyone. And it hasn't actually gotten worse for them, since everyone benefits from equality and a happier society. So I think people who idealise the past that way are either (a) not thinking it through, (b) being very selective about it ("well, yes, obviously there was a lot of racism, but I mean ASIDE from that") or (c) entitled people who are so happy with their own privilege over others that they want more of it.


I like rocks.

[Arachu]

I'm going to spoiler (I KEEP TYING "SPOILDER" THAT'S NOT A WORD!) the frat house discussion, because it's fairly off topic and also, ugh.

I don't know all the details or how exaggerated the story I heard was, but the gist seems to be that a group of rich guys who are all friends and who "share common interests, such as fine dining, horseracing and automobiles" (who says "automobiles" in Ireland?) have decided they should make a frat house, with a link to a snooty US frat house. The aim of this house will be for upper-class rich white young men to meet other upper-class rich white young men, and older men, without the terrible impositions of poor people and/or women, except maybe some pretty girls as quote "arm candy". It will function as a networking thing so that poor people and women don't get the same opportunities as the clearly more deserving rich white men when it comes to making contacts with people in business. Sorry, men in business. Who are rich, and white.

There are a few points to make here.
1) People are allowed to do what they like, but they are not allowed to use the name of the college or have a college-affiliated group without following rules and coming under the remit of one of the capitated bodies. The capitated bodies don't allow groups who put restrictions on entry. For example, the Muslim Student Society is not exclusive to students who are Muslim.
2) I would still have a problem with the rich-people club if it wasn't explicitly sexist.
3) I would still have a problem with an explicitly sexist club (obviously!) if it wasn't implicitly classist. (You need to contribute money to join and the idea is to have meetings in fancy restaurants and at the races and stuff.)
4) From what I can tell, the idea of Greek Houses (which I don't have an inherent problem with, I've just heard so so many rape stories from them, and also, why are they still so much gender segregated?) is instead of student societies. If you want to be a rich douche, just join the Buisness Society (or whatever) and go to fancy restaurants with your rich friends. Don't push it in everyone's face.
5) Seriously, WTF?!


I keep trying to use "quote" for some reason. Similarly, for the first month or two after I returned to GitP I kept getting Coidzor's and Golentan's names mixed up in my head for no reason I could discern. :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Yeah though, that frat thing sounds pretty annoying. :smallyuk: The sexism isn't the only problem, but it's definitely the agitating one.

Regarding the other aforementioned frat, it's probably best I don't state my immediate thoughts on a bad day... :smallmad:


I know that feel bro sis. Don't really know how to fix it though.

~ ♅

Ugh, it feels like I'm covered in stubble even though I shaved just three days ago... And it's just impossible to look in a mirror for more than five seconds or so. :smallsigh:

... *Hugs* I'm sure things will get better, though. For all of us.

... It's a bad sign when you have to convince yourself... :/

[Mina Kobold]

I hate to open up this can of worms again, but can we stop calling Sun a troll please? Sure, they didn't introduce themselves into the thread in a way very likely to produce a warm welcoming, but the loathing that some of you seem to be expressing makes me rather uncomfortable. I won't make any judgements on the game, not having played it, but some of the concerns Sun raised are valid (whether or not they apply to the game is a separate issue), and while I don't think Sun handled it entirely appropriately, screaming "Troll! Troll!" isn't exactly appropriate either.

I kind of have to agree with this, name-calling is not good at all. Even if Sun was a Troll, it will not help anyone and might hurt someone. ;_;

I think Sun just got off on the wrong foot. But even if that is not the case, friendliness and hugs should always be preffered to Troll! :smallsmile:


Broken record - I'm feeling worse and won't be posting much over the next week or so.

If you are a broken record, then you are the most amazing broken record I know of. :smallsmile:

I sincerely hope that you will get much better and have much more fun in the future. Take your time. :smallsmile:


Oh wow, that is so adorable! I gave a pebble to my sweetheart once... #geologistsrock

In other news, apparently some rich poopy heads in my university want to set up a circle jerk frat house. This makes me sad.

I only know of frat houses from a single episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but that doesn't sound very good at all.

Maybe you can create a much better and more fun group to outrival them? Would that help? :3

On other notes:

@Helio: Sounds like everything is going well, I hope it will continue to do so. ^_^

[noparlpf]

Farts. I mean, frats. :smalltongue: Heehee toilet humour!
Also, trigger stuff.



Seconded. The most obvious college-related rape culture stuff here are some of the parties. Apparently never go to a foam party: someone usually rapes someone else (usually a drunk fresher girl) under the foam.



Maybe you should rethink the fighting with a dozen guys plan?

I don't think you can pin this behaviour on Ireland, since they're emulating a specific US frat. (By the way, I should go look up to see if there's any more drama. Maybe it'll all have been an awful joke.)

And they can't get around the rule by being rich, unless I suppose they bribe one of the capitated bodies, but they'd have to bribe over half a committee, and it would be blatantly obvious that something funny had happened when they were recognised despite blatantly breaking college rules.

I think this is a result of that idea held by some super-privileged people that things were better in the "good old days" when they had, like, ALL the privilege, instead of the halfway fair (if imperfect) system we've got now. You know, the "Ah, for the days when men were men and there wasn't any of that ludicrous political correctness, and people just did right by their neighbours." by which they often mean "Ah, for the days when women were second-class citizens, we didn't have to pretend not to be racist or classist or sexist or any other -ist, and you got ahead exclusively by knowing the right people." I mean, things aren't perfect now, and some things were better in certain places in the past, like having a tight-knit neighbourhood community as the norm, but things are so much better now than in, say, the 1950s (which are often idealised), especially for anyone at all who isn't a straight, cis, white, rich, abled, neurotypical, upper-middle-class or higher man. Which is almost everyone. And it hasn't actually gotten worse for them, since everyone benefits from equality and a happier society. So I think people who idealise the past that way are either (a) not thinking it through, (b) being very selective about it ("well, yes, obviously there was a lot of racism, but I mean ASIDE from that") or (c) entitled people who are so happy with their own privilege over others that they want more of it.


I like rocks.

Also spoilered because this seems to be a spoilered discussion now.
The fighting a dozen guys thing was more of a sarcastic afterthought as I considered the possible endings of that night at the frat house. I don't think I'll actually do that. I want to keep in good shape so I can fight bears when I'm older.
And I'm sorry; I didn't mean to imply that this is typical of Ireland. Most of the nasty frat stories I hear are from the US. What I meant was that the kind of mindset these guys seem to have is that of years past, just without the concepts of honor or chivalry to balance it out.
As for getting around school rules, if they can get some of the wealthy folks who donate to the school on their side, they have a shot at being allowed to keep their proposed entry restrictions. A lot of the stuff I hear about frats over here involves schools being too scared to get involved because they don't want to lose financial backing from alumni from those frats.
I completely agree with that long paragraph except for one line--at some point, women weren't even second-class citizens. They were property.

I like rocks too, but I think organic molecules are neat. I'm currently thinking of going into biochemistry and studying some of those weird critters that don't fit the normal patterns of terrestrial life. (Arsenate-DNA critters, silicon critters, methanotrophs, those critters with both animal and plant characteristics, deep-sea critters, and so on.)
That is so incredibly off-topic, hehe. Unless I were to mention that very few organic molecules are straight. [/badpuns]


Edit: I was in the midst of my new (as of today--yesterday, technically, but then it turned twelve o'clock) habit of reading at least five random Wikipedia articles before bed, and I found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Freundin). Apparently there were gay and lesbian magazines back in the 1920s. Has anybody read any of these old magazines before? I'm curious as to the type of content.

[KenderWizard]

Frats:



Maybe you can create a much better and more fun group to outrival them? Would that help? :3


We already have over a hundred awesome student societies!


Also spoilered because this seems to be a spoilered discussion now.
The fighting a dozen guys thing was more of a sarcastic afterthought as I considered the possible endings of that night at the frat house. I don't think I'll actually do that. I want to keep in good shape so I can fight bears when I'm older.
And I'm sorry; I didn't mean to imply that this is typical of Ireland. Most of the nasty frat stories I hear are from the US. What I meant was that the kind of mindset these guys seem to have is that of years past, just without the concepts of honor or chivalry to balance it out.
As for getting around school rules, if they can get some of the wealthy folks who donate to the school on their side, they have a shot at being allowed to keep their proposed entry restrictions. A lot of the stuff I hear about frats over here involves schools being too scared to get involved because they don't want to lose financial backing from alumni from those frats.
I completely agree with that long paragraph except for one line--at some point, women weren't even second-class citizens. They were property.

I made it spoilered because it's not really on topic and people who come here for support might not want to hear about stupid frat things. Which is definitely reasonable!

Anyway, I'm hoping that the alumni thing won't happen. First, because I think Irish universities get way less from alumni than US ones do, so they don't have as much influence. Second, because I hope that if some alumni put pressure on like that, other alumni will put pressure on the other way ("I'm a high-powered, rich woman who came to college through an access program for people from bad areas, and if you let these people do this, I will stop giving you generous donations."). And third, because there aren't any alumni who actually went through a frat, since it'll be brand new, so none of them will have loyalty to the frat like in US colleges.

And I agree about the past, but I was focusing on the 1950s as my example, and, bad though things were, women in western countries were at least considered people by then!



I like rocks too, but I think organic molecules are neat. I'm currently thinking of going into biochemistry and studying some of those weird critters that don't fit the normal patterns of terrestrial life. (Arsenate-DNA critters, silicon critters, methanotrophs, those critters with both animal and plant characteristics, deep-sea critters, and so on.)
That is so incredibly off-topic, hehe. Unless I were to mention that very few organic molecules are straight. [/badpuns]


Extremophiles are bonkers! We got a talk recently about ones that live on black smokers on the Mid-Atlantic Rift. Crazy stuff.

[Ashen Lilies]

In other news, apparently some rich poopy heads in my university want to set up a circle jerk frat house. This makes me sad.


I'm going to spoiler (I KEEP TYING "SPOILDER" THAT'S NOT A WORD!) the frat house discussion, because it's fairly off topic and also, ugh.

I don't know all the details or how exaggerated the story I heard was, but the gist seems to be that a group of rich guys who are all friends and who "share common interests, such as fine dining, horseracing and automobiles" (who says "automobiles" in Ireland?) have decided they should make a frat house, with a link to a snooty US frat house. The aim of this house will be for upper-class rich white young men to meet other upper-class rich white young men, and older men, without the terrible impositions of poor people and/or women, except maybe some pretty girls as quote "arm candy". It will function as a networking thing so that poor people and women don't get the same opportunities as the clearly more deserving rich white men when it comes to making contacts with people in business. Sorry, men in business. Who are rich, and white.

There are a few points to make here.
1) People are allowed to do what they like, but they are not allowed to use the name of the college or have a college-affiliated group without following rules and coming under the remit of one of the capitated bodies. The capitated bodies don't allow groups who put restrictions on entry. For example, the Muslim Student Society is not exclusive to students who are Muslim.
2) I would still have a problem with the rich-people club if it wasn't explicitly sexist.
3) I would still have a problem with an explicitly sexist club (obviously!) if it wasn't implicitly classist. (You need to contribute money to join and the idea is to have meetings in fancy restaurants and at the races and stuff.)
4) From what I can tell, the idea of Greek Houses (which I don't have an inherent problem with, I've just heard so so many rape stories from them, and also, why are they still so much gender segregated?) is instead of student societies. If you want to be a rich douche, just join the Buisness Society (or whatever) and go to fancy restaurants with your rich friends. Don't push it in everyone's face.
5) Seriously, WTF?!



Okay, I'll admit it. My mind read the phrase "circle jerk frat house" and went somewhere completely different to what the actual reality is.

[Coidzor]

Okay, I'll admit it. My mind read the phrase "circle jerk frat house" and went somewhere completely different to what the actual reality is.

I found it an appellation that begged for further investigation myself.

[KenderWizard]

Okay, I'll admit it. My mind read the phrase "circle jerk frat house" and went somewhere completely different to what the actual reality is.

Does no one else use "circle jerk" to mean "bunch of gob****es all sewn up, helping one another and making each other feel more important than they are"? We use it for stuff like "Oh, the developers fund the politicians and then the politicians make nice to the developers. It's just a big circle jerk.".

[Ashen Lilies]

Yes, but given the stereotypes about frat houses, and the fact that this thread tends to deal with sex and sexual issues more often than not, the literal meaning of the phrase lent itself more readily to my mind than the metaphorical one.
...
Either that, or I'm just a pervert. Works both ways, really. :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

Frats:



We already have over a hundred awesome student societies!



I made it spoilered because it's not really on topic and people who come here for support might not want to hear about stupid frat things. Which is definitely reasonable!

Anyway, I'm hoping that the alumni thing won't happen. First, because I think Irish universities get way less from alumni than US ones do, so they don't have as much influence. Second, because I hope that if some alumni put pressure on like that, other alumni will put pressure on the other way ("I'm a high-powered, rich woman who came to college through an access program for people from bad areas, and if you let these people do this, I will stop giving you generous donations."). And third, because there aren't any alumni who actually went through a frat, since it'll be brand new, so none of them will have loyalty to the frat like in US colleges.

And I agree about the past, but I was focusing on the 1950s as my example, and, bad though things were, women in western countries were at least considered people by then!



Extremophiles are bonkers! We got a talk recently about ones that live on black smokers on the Mid-Atlantic Rift. Crazy stuff.

More frat stuff.
That's a good reason to spoiler stuff. I'm a wee bit slow this week due to pain and opioids.
Likewise a wee bit slow in regards to the alumni thing. It seems I had forgotten the fact that it's a new frat when I brought up wealthy alumni. But yeah, they are an issue over here in some places.
I don't know why people romanticise the 1950s. They were kind of boring. They didn't even have Tetris, let alone Pokemon. (Weird rambly train of thought brought to you by I just woke up.)

I do like extremophiles. (I forgot they were called that. That's a much handier word than describing a list of neat critters to convey the idea.) And now I have a pile of Wikipedia pages open again. I do like Wikipedia.


Okay, I'll admit it. My mind read the phrase "circle jerk frat house" and went somewhere completely different to what the actual reality is.

Took me moment to figure that one out.


Does no one else use "circle jerk" to mean "bunch of gob****es all sewn up, helping one another and making each other feel more important than they are"? We use it for stuff like "Oh, the developers fund the politicians and then the politicians make nice to the developers. It's just a big circle jerk.".

I haven't heard that before, but then, I haven't heard "circle jerk" before either. Your use of it does make sense, though.


OH HEY ON-TOPIC TIME!
Yesterday my mum said something like, "You are talking to a self-avowed asexual, you know," to somebody I was talking to. So at least she's willing to humor me even if she does think I'm just repressing my sexuality, or whatever she thinks.

[pffh]

Yes, but given the stereotypes about frat houses, and the fact that this thread tends to deal with sex and sexual issues more often than not, the literal meaning of the phrase lent itself more readily to my mind than the metaphorical one.
...
Either that, or I'm just a pervert. Works both ways, really. :smalltongue:

The wish is the father of the thought.

[Ashen Lilies]

So if I say 'Naughty Tentacles' and you get a particular mental image/association, it's indicative of a desire to have congress with an octopus? :smalltongue:

[pffh]

So if I say 'Naughty Tentacles' and you get a particular mental image/association, it's indicative of a desire to have congress with an octopus? :smalltongue:

Not necessarily an octopus :smallamused:

[Ashen Lilies]

Ah, so you're more of a cuttlefish man. I can respect that.

[The Succubus]

Cthulhusexual? =o

[Arachu]

Does no one else use "circle jerk" to mean "bunch of gob****es all sewn up, helping one another and making each other feel more important than they are"? We use it for stuff like "Oh, the developers fund the politicians and then the politicians make nice to the developers. It's just a big circle jerk.".

I've used it for that before, but your use of "poopy head" threw me off by making me think you were using euphemisms.

I thought about saying something, but then I remembered some stories I've heard about frats and I figured it's probably a good point in any case. :smalltongue:


So if I say 'Naughty Tentacles' and you get a particular mental image/association, it's indicative of a desire to have congress with an octopus? :smalltongue:

What does it mean if you hear "congress" and think 'Sexual Legislation'? :smalltongue:

[Qaera]

Cthulhusexual? =o

I can dig it. [/inju]

~ ♅

[KenderWizard]

Maybe I should keep a closer eye on my language!


More frat stuff.
That's a good reason to spoiler stuff. I'm a wee bit slow this week due to pain and opioids.
Likewise a wee bit slow in regards to the alumni thing. It seems I had forgotten the fact that it's a new frat when I brought up wealthy alumni. But yeah, they are an issue over here in some places.
I don't know why people romanticise the 1950s. They were kind of boring. They didn't even have Tetris, let alone Pokemon. (Weird rambly train of thought brought to you by I just woke up.)

I do like extremophiles. (I forgot they were called that. That's a much handier word than describing a list of neat critters to convey the idea.) And now I have a pile of Wikipedia pages open again. I do like Wikipedia.



Took me moment to figure that one out.



I haven't heard that before, but then, I haven't heard "circle jerk" before either. Your use of it does make sense, though.


OH HEY ON-TOPIC TIME!
Yesterday my mum said something like, "You are talking to a self-avowed asexual, you know," to somebody I was talking to. So at least she's willing to humor me even if she does think I'm just repressing my sexuality, or whatever she thinks.

I basically agree with everything you said. Shockingly! :smalltongue:

Nice that your mum is trying to be more supportive! Even if she hasn't really come around to the idea, pretending to is often the first step towards acceptance!

[supernerd]

So, my director wants us to find what the Finale of Les Mis means to us, so we can put something behind it on stage. The message is about how as long are there are people on the earth, there will be a fight. Currently, the only thing I'm even close to having to fight for is my sexuality, and I'd gladly fight for True Love.

So without further ado...

Do you hear the people sing
Lost in the valley of the night
It is the music of a people
Who are climbing to the light

For the wretched of the earth
There is a flame that never dies
Even the darkest night will end
And the sun will rise.

They will live again in freedom
In the garden of the Lord
They will walk behind the plough-share
They will put away the sword
The chain will be broken
And all men will have their reward!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!

For some reason I feel as though you are like my third family. (second is my best friends and *not officially*boyfriend)
Thank you all.

[Arachu]

So, my director wants us to find what the Finale of Les Mis means to us, so we can put something behind it on stage. The message is about how as long are there are people on the earth, there will be a fight. Currently, the only thing I'm even close to having to fight for is my sexuality, and I'd gladly fight for True Love.

So without further ado...

Do you hear the people sing
Lost in the valley of the night
It is the music of a people
Who are climbing to the light

For the wretched of the earth
There is a flame that never dies
Even the darkest night will end
And the sun will rise.

They will live again in freedom
In the garden of the Lord
They will walk behind the plough-share
They will put away the sword
The chain will be broken
And all men will have their reward!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!

I always wince a bit at the word "crusade"... That was still beautiful, though. :smallsmile:


For some reason I feel as though you are like my third family. (second is my best friends and *not officially*boyfriend)
Thank you all.

Even me? :mitd:

[Kneenibble]

Does no one else use "circle jerk" to mean "bunch of gob****es all sewn up, helping one another and making each other feel more important than they are"? We use it for stuff like "Oh, the developers fund the politicians and then the politicians make nice to the developers. It's just a big circle jerk.".

In that case I would say that the politicians gave the developers the courtesy of a reach-around.

As for circle jerk, dudes "all sewn up, helping one another and making each other feel more important than they are," -- I guess that about sums it up, yeah. :smalltongue:

I'd join a frat gladly if that was involved.

[Coidzor]

As for circle jerk, dudes "all sewn up, helping one another and making each other feel more important than they are," -- I guess that about sums it up, yeah. :smalltongue:

I'd join a frat gladly if that was involved.

There's nothing quite like the march of the penguins, after all.

[KenderWizard]

So, my director wants us to find what the Finale of Les Mis means to us, so we can put something behind it on stage. The message is about how as long are there are people on the earth, there will be a fight. Currently, the only thing I'm even close to having to fight for is my sexuality, and I'd gladly fight for True Love.

So without further ado...

Do you hear the people sing
Lost in the valley of the night
It is the music of a people
Who are climbing to the light

For the wretched of the earth
There is a flame that never dies
Even the darkest night will end
And the sun will rise.

They will live again in freedom
In the garden of the Lord
They will walk behind the plough-share
They will put away the sword
The chain will be broken
And all men will have their reward!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!

For some reason I feel as though you are like my third family. (second is my best friends and *not officially*boyfriend)
Thank you all.

:smallsmile: I feel good to be part of your third family!

[The Succubus]

:smallsmile: I feel good to be part of your third family!

Kender is your sweet and adorable little sister and I'm the creepy energy draining uncle! :smallbiggrin::smallamused:

[Astrella]

Has this been linked here before?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz5z3uKZk51qizfh0o1_r1_500.jpg

Also, that's awesome supernerd. And tons of hugs for Arachu.

[noparlpf]

Has this been linked here before?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz5z3uKZk51qizfh0o1_r1_500.jpg

Also, that's awesome supernerd. And tons of hugs for Arachu.

I think Asta posted it a couple weeks ago.

I'm going to hope Kender said things I meant to say over the last several posts because I slept terribly hardly slept last night and can't think.

[KenderWizard]

Kender is your sweet and adorable little sister and I'm the creepy energy draining uncle! :smallbiggrin::smallamused:

:smallredface: :smallsmile:


I think Asta posted it a couple weeks ago.

I'm going to hope Kender said things I meant to say over the last several posts because I slept terribly hardly slept last night and can't think.

Eek! No pressure?! I'm not sure I said all the things I should be saying either; I've been very fatigue-y last few days after my busy Friday-to-Tuesday came back to kick me in the teeth. But now I've got some time off classes! Yay!

[noparlpf]

Maybe I should keep a closer eye on my language!

I basically agree with everything you said. Shockingly! :smalltongue:

Nice that your mum is trying to be more supportive! Even if she hasn't really come around to the idea, pretending to is often the first step towards acceptance!

Wowzers. (I have never even thought that before. Weird.)
Yup. Maybe if I go another decade or two without showing interest in sex she'll come around properly.


So, my director wants us to find what the Finale of Les Mis means to us, so we can put something behind it on stage. The message is about how as long are there are people on the earth, there will be a fight. Currently, the only thing I'm even close to having to fight for is my sexuality, and I'd gladly fight for True Love.

So without further ado...

Do you hear the people sing
Lost in the valley of the night
It is the music of a people
Who are climbing to the light

For the wretched of the earth
There is a flame that never dies
Even the darkest night will end
And the sun will rise.

They will live again in freedom
In the garden of the Lord
They will walk behind the plough-share
They will put away the sword
The chain will be broken
And all men will have their reward!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!
Tomorrow comes!

For some reason I feel as though you are like my third family. (second is my best friends and *not officially*boyfriend)
Thank you all.

You're welcome! It's really nice to have a supportive and friendly group of people like this thread, isn't it?


:smallredface: :smallsmile:

Eek! No pressure?! I'm not sure I said all the things I should be saying either; I've been very fatigue-y last few days after my busy Friday-to-Tuesday came back to kick me in the teeth. But now I've got some time off classes! Yay!

Tough weekends are a pain. I have "Organic Chem Hell Week" coming up. Problem set due Friday, then the exam is this weekend. And I didn't have a chance to study or do any work over break due to wisdom teeth surgery and painkillers. Even better, I just got back to school yesterday and I'm already feeling sick, so I either caught something (from where? I've been in my room all week) or I'm actually manifesting withdrawal symptoms after only a week on a low dose of oxycodone.
So I feel ya. Sympathy *hugs* and have a nice break from class!

[Asta Kask]

I'll look in here from time to time so you can PM me if you have any questions on Organic Chemistry. I don't promise to answer them, but I'll look at them.

[The Succubus]

Yay! That horrific Medical Physics and Physiological Medicine course might be of use to someone! :smallbiggrin:

[supernerd]

Even me? :mitd:

Yes, even you.

@TheSuccubus I concur! But given your new avatar, wouldn't it be the Inccubus?

@KenderWizard thanks for being proud

@noparlf it so is! I love this thread sequence!

[Arachu]

Kender is your sweet and adorable little sister and I'm the creepy energy draining uncle! :smallbiggrin::smallamused:

Ooh! Dibs on badass big sister that everyone refers to in masculine terms in the Japanese version! :smalltongue:


Has this been linked here before?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz5z3uKZk51qizfh0o1_r1_500.jpg

Also, that's awesome supernerd. And tons of hugs for Arachu.

Asta posted that about... Two threads ago? Pretty sure it was more than two weeks ago... I wanna say it was before Toni did my nails...

*Hugs* It's more tolerable now, but my mom's decided that my dad's cheated on her again and I can hear them bickering from down here... :/


Tough weekends are a pain. I have "Organic Chem Hell Week" coming up. Problem set due Friday, then the exam is this weekend. And I didn't have a chance to study or do any work over break due to wisdom teeth surgery and painkillers. Even better, I just got back to school yesterday and I'm already feeling sick, so I either caught something (from where? I've been in my room all week) or I'm actually manifesting withdrawal symptoms after only a week on a low dose of oxycodone.
So I feel ya. Sympathy *hugs* and have a nice break from class!

Gah, and I'm stressed over a couple of graphing tricks I can eventually work around anyway. *hugs*

I'd offer to help, but I haven't studied Biochemistry nearly as much as I've been meaning to (nevermind Organic in general)...

Which reminds me - there's silicon-based life? Where was I for this memo... :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:


Yes, even you.

Yay! :smalltongue:


@TheSuccubus I concur! But given your new avatar, wouldn't it be the Inccubus?

Depends on the myth - they could be opposites, they could be unrelated or they could be the same thing changing back and forth. :sabine:

[noparlpf]

Which reminds me - there's silicon-based life? Where was I for this memo... :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

Well, not technically. Diatoms do produce shells made of silicon, but there aren't any terrestrial life-forms that are actually silicon-based. It's hypothetically possible, but there are several issues with silicon that would tend to make it unlikely.
There are the horta. But apparently Star Trek is fictional.

[supernerd]

Well, not technically. Diatoms do produce shells made of silicon, but there aren't any terrestrial life-forms that are actually silicon-based. It's hypothetically possible, but there are several issues with silicon that would tend to make it unlikely.
There are the horta. But apparently Star Trek is fictional.

No! It can't be true! You have shattered my whole world view! *cowers in the corner in the fetal position with hands covering ears*

[noparlpf]

No! It can't be true! You have shattered my whole world view! *cowers in the corner in the fetal position with hands covering ears*

Well, if it is nonfictional, it happened in a parallel universe where we had a eugenics war in the '90s and where noise can travel in space.
But I feel ya. I was traumatised when I first found out too.

[Asta Kask]

Since I have badly failed at keeping Internet silence I might as well come back entirely. And there's no thread on the Internet that I would rather call home than this. Ironic, since it's not about 'people like me' at all. Maybe the world would be better if we stopped talking in terms of 'people like me' and 'people not like me' and just talked about people.

[supernerd]

Hey so after Asta's awesome Prestige Class, I thought that what better way to celebrate Pride Day this year than by making a Base Class called the "Queer." I called it this to be generic and therfore able to be used by any LGBT, in which the first level Class Feature is the character's Identity. It has Bard casting progression plus 1 SPD for each level. and it is rather bardy in it's roll (providing support/buffs, arcane healing, transmutation and illusion based). *looks at my avatar* who would have guessed my first legitimate homebrew turned out Bard-y? however for combat efficiency, I'm thinking of giving it At Will Whirling Blade as an SLA for purposes of dealing damage, and then at higher levels (15-20 not sure where) making it Auto Quickened. it has auras the reflect the Pride spirit, and it has Assume Identity at ~4th level(i'm not looking at it right now) for confidence/starting transition. it should come out fairly fun. I would like to ask for ideas of higher level class features. It has Bard progession Inspire Courage type thing, and has skill bonuses on certain skills, which increase if the check involves their or another Queer's Identity.

I'm also Planning to give it immunity to death effects at higher levels. if i could get ideas, that would be great. I would also like to ask when Gay Pride Day is this year...

Edit: Welcome Back Asta! *great big hugs* if you look to the previous page you will see where you are part of my Third Family

[Astrella]

Since I have badly failed at keeping Internet silence I might as well come back entirely. And there's no thread on the Internet that I would rather call home than this. Ironic, since it's not about 'people like me' at all. Maybe the world would be better if we stopped talking in terms of 'people like me' and 'people not like me' and just talked about people.

*hugs Asta*

[H Birchgrove]

*also hugs Asta*

Edit: Almost forgot: Boys now reading as well as girls, study suggests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17159794)

Wonder Woman lends her support to Mozambique campaign against breast cancer (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2074863/Wonder-Woman-checks-ample-bosoms-Mozambique-campaign-breast-cancer.html)

Tangent:

I wonder if there has been a comic in which Wonder Woman is accused/outed to be lesbian, and she has to respond to that accusation. Oh, what am I thinking, of course there isn't, despite Fredric Wertham's accusations of her and other superheroes' "perversions".*

But it would be fun if DC Comics published one, especially now that the new Batwoman is lesbian. I'm not saying WW is a lesbian, just that she could have one of those inspiring speeches superheroes have some times.

* To be fair to Wertham, beside crusading against violence etc in comic books and television, he also worked against racial segregation in public schools. Also, William Moulton Marston, WW's creator, did make the comic something of a propaganda piece for femdom. Not that there is anything wrong with it. :mitd:

[bluewind95]

Yay for Asta coming back! *hugs*

In other news... I just watched the House episode where they had these... "asexuals". I am sad. That was a horrible depiction of asexuality.

[turkishproverb]

Since I have badly failed at keeping Internet silence I might as well come back entirely. And there's no thread on the Internet that I would rather call home than this. Ironic, since it's not about 'people like me' at all. Maybe the world would be better if we stopped talking in terms of 'people like me' and 'people not like me' and just talked about people.

*hugs asta* Yay.

[Caustic Soda]

Since I have badly failed at keeping Internet silence I might as well come back entirely. And there's no thread on the Internet that I would rather call home than this. Ironic, since it's not about 'people like me' at all. Maybe the world would be better if we stopped talking in terms of 'people like me' and 'people not like me' and just talked about people.

Pish tosh, Asta. These threads may not be about being nice and caring, but they're still filled with nice and caring people, and you're certainly not the least caring of us *hug*:smallsmile:

[KenderWizard]

Since I have badly failed at keeping Internet silence I might as well come back entirely. And there's no thread on the Internet that I would rather call home than this. Ironic, since it's not about 'people like me' at all. Maybe the world would be better if we stopped talking in terms of 'people like me' and 'people not like me' and just talked about people.

It's saying things like that that makes you fit in so well here! Also, I'm glad you're back! :smallsmile:

I was just reading something about that kind of idea the other day. Because if you think of oppression and -isms not in terms of "well, there's racism, plus there's also violence against trans people, plus I suppose old people and disabled people are often targets of abuse plus ... ", and instead of think of it as all interrelated, based on a culture where women's work is devalued, where people of the "wrong" skin colour are treated worse in the media, where old people and children are portrayed as useless, where parents are constantly made to be terrified they're doing everything wrong and aren't given the tools and the space to raise their children in the best possible way, where schools and allomothers (older people in the infant's life who look after them) aren't given the knowledge to pass on to children and tolerance and equality and all that... I'd call that imperfect, hierarchy-obsessed, intolerant side of our collective culture the "kyriarchy", and it's made up of just lots and lots of people not stopping to think about the fact that anyone else is more similar to themselves than different.

I firmly believe individuals do the best work against that kind of culture by focusing on one or two aspects, like I was first a feminist, and through feminism, I came to understand different kinds of privilege and that although I'm in the worse-off group for a bunch of things (a woman, queer, with an invisible disability), I also have a load of privilege that I have to try to be aware of (I'm white, middle-class, well-educated, cissexual, in a "straight" relationship, with a disability that is closer to "bothersome" than "debilitating"). And although I am first a feminist, that doesn't mean that I can push over someone else's struggles. The kyriarchy culture isn't bothered by activists who argue with one another about who's the "most" oppressed or what's "most important".

I think there is some injustice for everyone, and even if you're white, straight, male, cis, neurotypical, 25-40, upper-class, educated, currently able bodied, and every possible other thing, well, maybe your wife isn't and you could try listening to her about how hard it is to come from a working-class background and try fit in with all your friends. And once you understand the idea of injustice and privilege, you can try using your smart human brain to apply it to other situations. I know how hard it can be to be a woman in a male-dominated, male-centred environment. So if I'm talking to a woman who isn't white, who works in a woman-dominated field in Ireland, I don't have to say "Well, you think that's bad? At least you don't have to put up with sexism!", I can say "I can't completely understand, but I can relate. It must be hard that all your co-workers are white, and don't really understand what you have to put up with."

Far too long; didn't read - Injustice does discriminate, but generally hits everyone at some point or another. Instead of being selfish about the crap we have to put up with, we can use it to empathise with other people and that's the way to take the kyriarchy apart, one bigoted sentiment at a time.

Maybe I should stop using this place to write my essays.
Maybe I should stop writing essays about the kyriarchy and start writing that essay about the uplift of the Andes that I'm actually supposed to write...


*also hugs Asta*

Edit: Almost forgot: Boys now reading as well as girls, study suggests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17159794)


That's so weird that you linked that, because I was just reading about girls being programmed not to do well at maths! (http://jezebel.com/5888392/moms-dont-frazzle-their-daughters-with-fancy-math+speak?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

Btw, the study seems to use "mothers" and "parents" interchangeably, which is, like, a whole other problem. It seems like they just studied mothers, which is legitimate enough for control, although it would have been better if they'd studied a larger sample with as close to even as possible mothers and fathers and then they could compare them and combine them to have actually "parents". For all they know, fathers do the opposite, so "parents" as a group don't do this. But whatever.

[Asta Kask]

I was just reading something about that kind of idea the other day. Because if you think of oppression and -isms not in terms of "well, there's racism, plus there's also violence against trans people, plus I suppose old people and disabled people are often targets of abuse plus ... ", and instead of think of it as all interrelated, based on a culture where women's work is devalued, where people of the "wrong" skin colour are treated worse in the media, where old people and children are portrayed as useless, where parents are constantly made to be terrified they're doing everything wrong and aren't given the tools and the space to raise their children in the best possible way, where schools and allomothers (older people in the infant's life who look after them) aren't given the knowledge to pass on to children and tolerance and equality and all that... I'd call that imperfect, hierarchy-obsessed, intolerant side of our collective culture the "kyriarchy", and it's made up of just lots and lots of people not stopping to think about the fact that anyone else is more similar to themselves than different.

Why do you think I called one of KenderWoman's enemies the Kyriarch? :smallwink:

I can report that you are joined now by Natalie Reed's alter ego Iris - the Rainbow Avenger. Although she mainly operates from Vancouver.


Iris – the Rainbow Avenger
Real Name: Natalie Reed
Background: Natalie discovered in her teens that she was a trans woman and has spent her life fighting the prejudice and hardships of trans people everywhere. When an experimental new super-estrogen gave her superpowers she took the fight to the streets of Vancouver.

Powers
Dazzle: This is a rainbow colored beam that can blind people, sometimes permanently.
Dysphoria Ray: This ray allows Iris to strike an opponent with the full force of gender dysphoria. At its strongest setting, it has driven people to suicide so she’s careful with that, but it remains one of her most powerful weapons.
Hermaphromorph: Although she is loath to do so, Iris can change into male form to go undercover. She really hates to do this, but it has saved her life.
Martial Arts: Iris is a master of Jeet Kune Do and has won several tournaments.
Secret Vault of Tranny* Wisdom: This is located in her secret base. The exact contents are hidden from the world, but in the past it has provided knowledge on a vast number of subjects.
Strength: Iris can lift up to ten tons over her head.

*This is a joke phrase that arose during Natalie’s interview on the Godless Bitches podcast. It is not meant as an insult and Natalie has been cool with it in the past.

Weakness
Name: If someone finds out her ‘boyname’ and uses it against her, that would be a powerful weapon.

Her arch-nemeses are the shadowy Kyriarch and the quite, quite insane Lord of the Cis.

You can find MM stats for them here (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/15/target-audiences-and-playing-nice/), together with a pretty good article and a minor flamewar. Among other things, Natalie is said to be on FtB as the 'token trans'. :smallsigh:

Edit: Apparently there's a movement among Canadian LGBT communities to 'ditch the Ts' to get better public relations. Apparently they have never heard of pastor Niemöller...


First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I was Protestant.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[The Succubus]

Ah, I've come across something like that before except it was in the form of a poem... (http://homepage.mac.com/steveklein/hangman.html)

[noparlpf]

Since I have badly failed at keeping Internet silence I might as well come back entirely. And there's no thread on the Internet that I would rather call home than this. Ironic, since it's not about 'people like me' at all. Maybe the world would be better if we stopped talking in terms of 'people like me' and 'people not like me' and just talked about people.

Welcome back! *hugs*
It probably would be a better place.


Yay for Asta coming back! *hugs*

In other news... I just watched the House episode where they had these... "asexuals". I am sad. That was a horrible depiction of asexuality.

Yeah. I kind of saw it coming from the beginning, though. The way the woman was describing it to the doctor seemed kind of artificial to me, even for an actress. (Or maybe they actually thought that was a good way of describing it?)


It's saying things like that that makes you fit in so well here! Also, I'm glad you're back! :smallsmile:

I was just reading something about that kind of idea the other day. Because if you think of oppression and -isms not in terms of "well, there's racism, plus there's also violence against trans people, plus I suppose old people and disabled people are often targets of abuse plus ... ", and instead of think of it as all interrelated, based on a culture where women's work is devalued, where people of the "wrong" skin colour are treated worse in the media, where old people and children are portrayed as useless, where parents are constantly made to be terrified they're doing everything wrong and aren't given the tools and the space to raise their children in the best possible way, where schools and allomothers (older people in the infant's life who look after them) aren't given the knowledge to pass on to children and tolerance and equality and all that... I'd call that imperfect, hierarchy-obsessed, intolerant side of our collective culture the "kyriarchy", and it's made up of just lots and lots of people not stopping to think about the fact that anyone else is more similar to themselves than different.

I firmly believe individuals do the best work against that kind of culture by focusing on one or two aspects, like I was first a feminist, and through feminism, I came to understand different kinds of privilege and that although I'm in the worse-off group for a bunch of things (a woman, queer, with an invisible disability), I also have a load of privilege that I have to try to be aware of (I'm white, middle-class, well-educated, cissexual, in a "straight" relationship, with a disability that is closer to "bothersome" than "debilitating"). And although I am first a feminist, that doesn't mean that I can push over someone else's struggles. The kyriarchy culture isn't bothered by activists who argue with one another about who's the "most" oppressed or what's "most important".

I think there is some injustice for everyone, and even if you're white, straight, male, cis, neurotypical, 25-40, upper-class, educated, currently able bodied, and every possible other thing, well, maybe your wife isn't and you could try listening to her about how hard it is to come from a working-class background and try fit in with all your friends. And once you understand the idea of injustice and privilege, you can try using your smart human brain to apply it to other situations. I know how hard it can be to be a woman in a male-dominated, male-centred environment. So if I'm talking to a woman who isn't white, who works in a woman-dominated field in Ireland, I don't have to say "Well, you think that's bad? At least you don't have to put up with sexism!", I can say "I can't completely understand, but I can relate. It must be hard that all your co-workers are white, and don't really understand what you have to put up with."

Far too long; didn't read - Injustice does discriminate, but generally hits everyone at some point or another. Instead of being selfish about the crap we have to put up with, we can use it to empathise with other people and that's the way to take the kyriarchy apart, one bigoted sentiment at a time.

I like it! I wish I had more to say right now, considering I did sleep pretty well last night, for a change, but all I can come up with is, "Yup, I agree completely."


Maybe I should stop using this place to write my essays.
Maybe I should stop writing essays about the kyriarchy and start writing that essay about the uplift of the Andes that I'm actually supposed to write...

Don't do that! I like reading them.


That's so weird that you linked that, because I was just reading about girls being programmed not to do well at maths! (http://jezebel.com/5888392/moms-dont-frazzle-their-daughters-with-fancy-math+speak?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

Btw, the study seems to use "mothers" and "parents" interchangeably, which is, like, a whole other problem. It seems like they just studied mothers, which is legitimate enough for control, although it would have been better if they'd studied a larger sample with as close to even as possible mothers and fathers and then they could compare them and combine them to have actually "parents". For all they know, fathers do the opposite, so "parents" as a group don't do this. But whatever.

Interestingly, many of the girls in my math/science classes were the ones whose parents (often father, sometimes mother, occasionally both) were in the maths/sciences. So that study could have some validity, but does seem to have ignored paternal influences.


Why do you think I called one of KenderWoman's enemies the Kyriarch? :smallwink:

I can report that you are joined now by Natalie Reed's alter ego Iris - the Rainbow Avenger. Although she mainly operates from Vancouver.



You can find MM stats for them here (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/15/target-audiences-and-playing-nice/), together with a pretty good article and a minor flamewar. Among other things, Natalie is said to be on FtB as the 'token trans'. :smallsigh:

Edit: Apparently there's a movement among Canadian LGBT communities to 'ditch the Ts' to get better public relations. Apparently they have never heard of pastor Niemöller...

See, it's nice when you're here! You have all kinds of good things to contribute.
I remember that poem by Niemöller. My mother showed it to me, I think. (She currently teaches middle-school English at a Jewish private school, and she works stuff about morality and open-mindedness into her lessons. Most of the kids are from wealthy kind of right-wing families, and grow up around a lot of prejudice. My mum tries to give another perspective in her lessons.)

[KenderWizard]

Why do you think I called one of KenderWoman's enemies the Kyriarch? :smallwink:

I can report that you are joined now by Natalie Reed's alter ego Iris - the Rainbow Avenger. Although she mainly operates from Vancouver.


Awesome! :smallbiggrin: I'll go check it out! And I know you know of the shadowy evil of the Kyriarch, but "They" (because I'm pretty sure the Kyriarch is represented by the "They" of "They'll judge me" etc) are very good at staying unseen.

Also, ditching the T is pretty much what my essay was about. :smallsigh:



I like it! I wish I had more to say right now, considering I did sleep pretty well last night, for a change, but all I can come up with is, "Yup, I agree completely."


Don't do that! I like reading them.


Interestingly, many of the girls in my math/science classes were the ones whose parents (often father, sometimes mother, occasionally both) were in the maths/sciences. So that study could have some validity, but does seem to have ignored paternal influences.


Well, it's not surprising if I said everything you would have said. :smalltongue: Maybe you should write the next essay! I'm glad you like reading them. Sometimes I think I should just make a blog and link things here when necessary. But first... Andes essay. Then, run games convention. Then, study for finals for two months, sit finals. Then sleep. Aaaaaaand then we'll see where we are.

I think that Niemöller poem should be written on the walls. Generally. Of everywhere.

[noparlpf]

Awesome! :smallbiggrin: I'll go check it out! And I know you know of the shadowy evil of the Kyriarch, but "They" (because I'm pretty sure the Kyriarch is represented by the "They" of "They'll judge me" etc) are very good at staying unseen.

Also, ditching the T is pretty much what my essay was about. :smallsigh:



Well, it's not surprising if I said everything you would have said. :smalltongue: Maybe you should write the next essay! I'm glad you like reading them. Sometimes I think I should just make a blog and link things here when necessary. But first... Andes essay. Then, run games convention. Then, study for finals for two months, sit finals. Then sleep. Aaaaaaand then we'll see where we are.

I think that Niemöller poem should be written on the walls. Generally. Of everywhere.

If I weren't against the rampant graffiti here, I'd spend the rest of the day writing that poem all over the school. Instead, I think I'll just print it out a bazillion times and tape those all over the school.
(I like how "bazillion" is in Firefox's dictionary but lots of real words aren't.)
As for writing essays...I'm a decent writer, it's just slow and painful. I'm borderline dysgraphic, but only for certain concepts when I try to write them. It's weird.

[Mina Kobold]

Why do you think I called one of KenderWoman's enemies the Kyriarch? :smallwink:

I can report that you are joined now by Natalie Reed's alter ego Iris - the Rainbow Avenger. Although she mainly operates from Vancouver.



You can find MM stats for them here (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/15/target-audiences-and-playing-nice/), together with a pretty good article and a minor flamewar. Among other things, Natalie is said to be on FtB as the 'token trans'. :smallsigh:

Ooh, I should do some participations as well, currently all I have done is draw kittens without saying much... Great Ceasar's Ghost! I'm the moony loony of LGBTAitp! :smalleek:

I have a niche! :3




Edit: Apparently there's a movement among Canadian LGBT communities to 'ditch the Ts' to get better public relations. Apparently they have never heard of pastor Niemöller...


Ah, I've come across something like that before except it was in the form of a poem... (http://homepage.mac.com/steveklein/hangman.html)

I should read more poetry, those are some quite thought-provoking and well-written examples.

But now I have to fight the urge to illustrate them... Yet. :smallsmile:


It's saying things like that that makes you fit in so well here! Also, I'm glad you're back! :smallsmile:

I was just reading something about that kind of idea the other day. Because if you think of oppression and -isms not in terms of "well, there's racism, plus there's also violence against trans people, plus I suppose old people and disabled people are often targets of abuse plus ... ", and instead of think of it as all interrelated, based on a culture where women's work is devalued, where people of the "wrong" skin colour are treated worse in the media, where old people and children are portrayed as useless, where parents are constantly made to be terrified they're doing everything wrong and aren't given the tools and the space to raise their children in the best possible way, where schools and allomothers (older people in the infant's life who look after them) aren't given the knowledge to pass on to children and tolerance and equality and all that... I'd call that imperfect, hierarchy-obsessed, intolerant side of our collective culture the "kyriarchy", and it's made up of just lots and lots of people not stopping to think about the fact that anyone else is more similar to themselves than different.

I firmly believe individuals do the best work against that kind of culture by focusing on one or two aspects, like I was first a feminist, and through feminism, I came to understand different kinds of privilege and that although I'm in the worse-off group for a bunch of things (a woman, queer, with an invisible disability), I also have a load of privilege that I have to try to be aware of (I'm white, middle-class, well-educated, cissexual, in a "straight" relationship, with a disability that is closer to "bothersome" than "debilitating"). And although I am first a feminist, that doesn't mean that I can push over someone else's struggles. The kyriarchy culture isn't bothered by activists who argue with one another about who's the "most" oppressed or what's "most important".

I think there is some injustice for everyone, and even if you're white, straight, male, cis, neurotypical, 25-40, upper-class, educated, currently able bodied, and every possible other thing, well, maybe your wife isn't and you could try listening to her about how hard it is to come from a working-class background and try fit in with all your friends. And once you understand the idea of injustice and privilege, you can try using your smart human brain to apply it to other situations. I know how hard it can be to be a woman in a male-dominated, male-centred environment. So if I'm talking to a woman who isn't white, who works in a woman-dominated field in Ireland, I don't have to say "Well, you think that's bad? At least you don't have to put up with sexism!", I can say "I can't completely understand, but I can relate. It must be hard that all your co-workers are white, and don't really understand what you have to put up with."

Far too long; didn't read - Injustice does discriminate, but generally hits everyone at some point or another. Instead of being selfish about the crap we have to put up with, we can use it to empathise with other people and that's the way to take the kyriarchy apart, one bigoted sentiment at a time.

Maybe I should stop using this place to write my essays.
Maybe I should stop writing essays about the kyriarchy and start writing that essay about the uplift of the Andes that I'm actually supposed to write...

While I am biased by my complete agreement to everything you have said as well, I concur to the notion that you write very well and it would be missed should you stop. :smallsmile:

The Andes are quite groovy, although far from as neat as the Alpes. [/VeryMuchNotBiasedBySkiingExperiences-Nope!]



That's so weird that you linked that, because I was just reading about girls being programmed not to do well at maths! (http://jezebel.com/5888392/moms-dont-frazzle-their-daughters-with-fancy-math+speak?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

Btw, the study seems to use "mothers" and "parents" interchangeably, which is, like, a whole other problem. It seems like they just studied mothers, which is legitimate enough for control, although it would have been better if they'd studied a larger sample with as close to even as possible mothers and fathers and then they could compare them and combine them to have actually "parents". For all they know, fathers do the opposite, so "parents" as a group don't do this. But whatever.

I need to save those articles, arguing for that point is really difficult without studies at hand to show the correlation. Thanks to both of you for linking them! :smallsmile:

The mother and parents thing is sadly rampant in Psychology. The proper term should be caretaker, but it is almost always assumed to be the mother. The gender segretation within the field* is quite sad. ;_;

On other notes:

*Glomps Aska and supernerd*

Whether home or family, we will try to be the best of both. :smallsmile:

*As far as I know it. I am merely a teenage student, not a professional. ^_^'

[Asta Kask]

That gender dysphoria ray has a dark real-life background by the way. Apparently it's not entirely uncommon that trans people attempt some DIY Sexual Reconstruction Surgery. People, don't do this. You'll end up performing Sexual Destruction Surgery. :eek:

Edit: I just remembered that there are people who know all about gender dysphoria from the inside. Please disregard everything. :redface:

Edit 2: Holy Moly! (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2010.02118.x/full) A third of the patients had performed self-mutilation. I think most of that is cutting, however. Which is bad but still heaps better than applying a hedge trimmer to your genitals or breasts...

[noparlpf]

That gender dysphoria ray has a dark real-life background by the way. Apparently it's not entirely uncommon that trans people attempt some DIY Sexual Reconstruction Surgery. People, don't do this. You'll end up performing Sexual Destruction Surgery. :eek:

Those are some pretty sad stories.

[bluewind95]

Yeah. I kind of saw it coming from the beginning, though. The way the woman was describing it to the doctor seemed kind of artificial to me, even for an actress. (Or maybe they actually thought that was a good way of describing it?)


I guess they actually thought it was a great way of describing it. Many, many people think asexuality doesn't exist, after all. It was a really... jarring depiction, though.

[Asta Kask]

Natalie Reed: Good things about being trans. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/28/seven-things-about-being-trans-that-are-actually-kind-of-awesome/)

It's not all doom and gloom. And it's important to say that from time to time.

[Arachu]

Awesome! :smallbiggrin: I'll go check it out! And I know you know of the shadowy evil of the Kyriarch, but "They" (because I'm pretty sure the Kyriarch is represented by the "They" of "They'll judge me" etc) are very good at staying unseen.

Also, ditching the T is pretty much what my essay was about. :smallsigh:

I could see the Kyriarch using the royal "we" as if to imply that they speak for everyone. :roach:

I didn't get any implication of 'ditch the T' out of your essay - in fact, *hugs* for mentioning so many groups.


That gender dysphoria ray has a dark real-life background by the way. Apparently it's not entirely uncommon that trans people attempt some DIY Sexual Reconstruction Surgery. People, don't do this. You'll end up performing Sexual Destruction Surgery. :eek:

Edit: I just remembered that there are people who know all about gender dysphoria from the inside. Please disregard everything. :redface:

Edit 2: Holy Moly! (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2010.02118.x/full) A third of the patients had performed self-mutilation. I think most of that is cutting, however. Which is bad but still heaps better than applying a hedge trimmer to your genitals or breasts...

I've heard of that being done as an extremist form of masochism... I was afraid that that wasn't the only cause. :/

[noparlpf]

I could see the Kyriarch using the royal "we" as if to imply that they speak for everyone. :roach:

I didn't get any implication of 'ditch the T' out of your essay - in fact, *hugs* for mentioning so many groups.

Well, because her essay was about how excluding other oppressed groups is silly, and we should all band together because we all face some kind of lack of privilege somehow! Instead of being all "YEAH WELL MY LIFE IS WORSE" we should be more empathetic and stuff.
This is why I let Kender write our thoughts. She's more eloquent.

[H Birchgrove]

It's saying things like that that makes you fit in so well here! Also, I'm glad you're back! :smallsmile:

I was just reading something about that kind of idea the other day. Because if you think of oppression and -isms not in terms of "well, there's racism, plus there's also violence against trans people, plus I suppose old people and disabled people are often targets of abuse plus ... ", and instead of think of it as all interrelated, based on a culture where women's work is devalued, where people of the "wrong" skin colour are treated worse in the media, where old people and children are portrayed as useless, where parents are constantly made to be terrified they're doing everything wrong and aren't given the tools and the space to raise their children in the best possible way, where schools and allomothers (older people in the infant's life who look after them) aren't given the knowledge to pass on to children and tolerance and equality and all that... I'd call that imperfect, hierarchy-obsessed, intolerant side of our collective culture the "kyriarchy", and it's made up of just lots and lots of people not stopping to think about the fact that anyone else is more similar to themselves than different.

I firmly believe individuals do the best work against that kind of culture by focusing on one or two aspects, like I was first a feminist, and through feminism, I came to understand different kinds of privilege and that although I'm in the worse-off group for a bunch of things (a woman, queer, with an invisible disability), I also have a load of privilege that I have to try to be aware of (I'm white, middle-class, well-educated, cissexual, in a "straight" relationship, with a disability that is closer to "bothersome" than "debilitating"). And although I am first a feminist, that doesn't mean that I can push over someone else's struggles. The kyriarchy culture isn't bothered by activists who argue with one another about who's the "most" oppressed or what's "most important".

I think there is some injustice for everyone, and even if you're white, straight, male, cis, neurotypical, 25-40, upper-class, educated, currently able bodied, and every possible other thing, well, maybe your wife isn't and you could try listening to her about how hard it is to come from a working-class background and try fit in with all your friends. And once you understand the idea of injustice and privilege, you can try using your smart human brain to apply it to other situations. I know how hard it can be to be a woman in a male-dominated, male-centred environment. So if I'm talking to a woman who isn't white, who works in a woman-dominated field in Ireland, I don't have to say "Well, you think that's bad? At least you don't have to put up with sexism!", I can say "I can't completely understand, but I can relate. It must be hard that all your co-workers are white, and don't really understand what you have to put up with."

Far too long; didn't read - Injustice does discriminate, but generally hits everyone at some point or another. Instead of being selfish about the crap we have to put up with, we can use it to empathise with other people and that's the way to take the kyriarchy apart, one bigoted sentiment at a time.

Maybe I should stop using this place to write my essays.
Maybe I should stop writing essays about the kyriarchy and start writing that essay about the uplift of the Andes that I'm actually supposed to write...

While I won't talk you into missing deadlines for your day job, I love your feminist "essays" here. They're thought provoking! :smallsmile: :smallcool:

With the risk of exposing my moral myopia, I was reading a Men's Rights blog (in Swedish) not long ago, regarding the rights of fathers. (Linked from another Men's Rights blog I find myself in at least partial agreement with, though it seem to attract stupid readers/posters.) It seemed to make perfect sense to me at the beginning, but as soon as the blog's introduction started to rant about single mothers and "the gay agenda" and how they work to destroy families (with both fathers and mothers), I closed the browser tab. :smallsigh:

I think I'll go and check that Successful Black Man meme I discovered a few months ago, to cheer me up.


That's so weird that you linked that, because I was just reading about girls being programmed not to do well at maths! (http://jezebel.com/5888392/moms-dont-frazzle-their-daughters-with-fancy-math+speak?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

Btw, the study seems to use "mothers" and "parents" interchangeably, which is, like, a whole other problem. It seems like they just studied mothers, which is legitimate enough for control, although it would have been better if they'd studied a larger sample with as close to even as possible mothers and fathers and then they could compare them and combine them to have actually "parents". For all they know, fathers do the opposite, so "parents" as a group don't do this. But whatever.

Reminds me about an episode of The Simpsons in which the sexes (for some reason) get segregated in school. The girls, while orderly, get a very patronising education, while the unruly boys get excellent education in maths and science. Lisa tries then to get into the boys class, dressed as a boy. (I don't know how it ended, and I missed the beginning as well.)

Ironically, my elder sister was (and probably still is) much better at maths than I was (and am), and got a better/more advanced maths education, or at least learned certain things earlier than I got.


Why do you think I called one of KenderWoman's enemies the Kyriarch? :smallwink:

I can report that you are joined now by Natalie Reed's alter ego Iris - the Rainbow Avenger. Although she mainly operates from Vancouver.



You can find MM stats for them here (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/15/target-audiences-and-playing-nice/), together with a pretty good article and a minor flamewar. Among other things, Natalie is said to be on FtB as the 'token trans'. :smallsigh:

Could you ask her if she would like to be part of #Heroes-of-GiantitP? :smallsmile:

Also, as scribe of the chronicles of The Purple Avenger, I can inform you and Iris/Natalie that he and Team Purple are more than willing to team up with her against her campaign against evil. He also told me that if Iris objects to the slaying of slayers, he and Team Purple are willing to only use mercy bullets when working with her. :smallwink:

BTW, I just realised the coincidence (?) that one of the members of Team Purple is both a Canadian citizen and trans*. :smalleek: (She's a First Nation Two Spirit who have served in the Canadian Special Operations Regiment or Joint Task Force 2 and in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, possibly as a Aboriginal Community Constable. She has discovered that she has shamanistic powers and travelled around North America when meeting The Purple Avenger.) When I've edited her entry over at deviantART, I may link it to Natalie, so she can voice her opinion.


Edit: Apparently there's a movement among Canadian LGBT communities to 'ditch the Ts' to get better public relations. Apparently they have never heard of pastor Niemöller...

:smallfrown: I can still not understand the dislike of transsexuals, or the idea that transsexuals are "worse" than LGB's, considering how long HRT and SRS have existed. :smallconfused: Not that I'm saying we should go back to telling gays and lesbians to do HRT and SRS like in the 1960's (at least in Sweden, don't know about other countries, except Iran, which does the very same thing today)*, far from it. That would be wrong an terrible. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

* Is this one of the reasons why some gays and lesbians dislike trans persons? :smallfrown:

[Nix Nihila]

Edit 2: Holy Moly! (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2010.02118.x/full) A third of the patients had performed self-mutilation. I think most of that is cutting, however. Which is bad but still heaps better than applying a hedge trimmer to your genitals or breasts...

I had no idea it was that prevalent.


Natalie Reed: Good things about being trans. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/28/seven-things-about-being-trans-that-are-actually-kind-of-awesome/)

It's not all doom and gloom. And it's important to say that from time to time.

I think some of those things are more to do with the process of transition than being trans. But there are definitely some good points in there.

[Asta Kask]

:smallfrown: I can still not understand the dislike of transsexuals, or the idea that transsexuals are "worse" than LGB's, considering how long HRT and SRS have existed. :smallconfused: Not that I'm saying we should go back to telling gays and lesbians to do HRT and SRS like in the 1960's (at least in Sweden, don't know about other countries, except Iran, which does the very same thing today)*, far from it. That would be wrong an terrible. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

* Is this one of the reasons why some gays and lesbians dislike trans persons? :smallfrown:

The difference is that LGB is not a condition that requires treatment. Transsexuality requires the proper treatment, which usually consists of a number TLA*s given over the course of some years.

*Three Letter Acronym

[Nix Nihila]

:smallfrown: I can still not understand the dislike of transsexuals, or the idea that transsexuals are "worse" than LGB's, considering how long HRT and SRS have existed. :smallconfused: Not that I'm saying we should go back to telling gays and lesbians to do HRT and SRS like in the 1960's (at least in Sweden, don't know about other countries, except Iran, which does the very same thing today)*, far from it. That would be wrong an terrible. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

* Is this one of the reasons why some gays and lesbians dislike trans persons? :smallfrown:

I know some people have expressed the opinion that LGB people would be better off in terms of rights if they weren't associated with T people, and that we're "****ing them over" by being included in the same bills that protect their rights. For example, IIRC, the Human Rights Campaign was very hesitant to advocate a trans-inclusive ENDA out of fear that it wouldn't pass.

[noparlpf]

I know some people have expressed the opinion that LGB people would be better off in terms of rights if they weren't associated with T people, and that we're "****ing them over" by being included in the same bills that protect their rights. For example, IIRC, the Human Rights Campaign was very hesitant to advocate a trans-inclusive ENDA out of fear that it wouldn't pass.

Shouldn't "Human Rights" laws be very general and just say "treat people well"?

[Asta Kask]

Trans people have certain needs that other groups don't. Unisex bathrooms, for instance, is not a major concern for most people.

[noparlpf]

Trans people have certain needs that other groups don't. Unisex bathrooms, for instance, is not a major concern for most people.

I personally don't understand the need for sex-segregated restrooms. (At my school dorm bathrooms are considered unisex, and the only gendered restrooms on campus are in the Student Union building. I've used the women's restroom there as often as I have the men's.) Is it more of that fear that men will peep on or sexually assault women the moment they take their pants down?

[Asta Kask]

Seems that way. Silly, but that's human nature for you.

Edit: Seems my meds are kicking in. Maybe I won't kill myself after all! :smallbiggrin:

[Mono Vertigo]

I know some people have expressed the opinion that LGB people would be better off in terms of rights if they weren't associated with T people, and that we're "****ing them over" by being included in the same bills that protect their rights. For example, IIRC, the Human Rights Campaign was very hesitant to advocate a trans-inclusive ENDA out of fear that it wouldn't pass.

:confused:
What the hell.

[Asta Kask]

People are people, even if they are LGB. And the temptation to gain a small advantage by ditching a small, exposed group is always there.

[Arachu]

On math: Not very many people in my school claimed to be good at math, but the only non-teachers that were seemed to be boys. Of course, most of the other boys were terrible at it... :shrug:

I was bad at math, but that was because I didn't figure out the logic behind it until Senior year. Still got a "D" for not showing my work, of course. (I told them that I make more errors when I show work, but they were convinced that I just wasn't listening to them :smallsigh:)


I know some people have expressed the opinion that LGB people would be better off in terms of rights if they weren't associated with T people, and that we're "****ing them over" by being included in the same bills that protect their rights. For example, IIRC, the Human Rights Campaign was very hesitant to advocate a trans-inclusive ENDA out of fear that it wouldn't pass.

Reminds me of "camp" hate, really. Even if every homosexual in the world were iron-chewing truck-drivers, there's no reason to believe that people would be any more accepting. :smallsigh:


Trans people have certain needs that other groups don't. Unisex bathrooms, for instance, is not a major concern for most people.

Frankly, I consider gender-segregation to be detrimental anyway. I've seen some nasty men's restrooms in my time. :smallyuk:


Edit: Seems my meds are kicking in. Maybe I won't kill myself after all! :smallbiggrin:

*Hugs!*Good, because if you do I'll kick your ass. :smalltongue: :smallfrown:

[KenderWizard]

So much to talk about! Must resist urge to essay it up. Seriously, that Andes essay is NOT writing itself, despite my best efforts to ignore it. :smalltongue:




While I am biased by my complete agreement to everything you have said as well, I concur to the notion that you write very well and it would be missed should you stop. :smallsmile:

The Andes are quite groovy, although far from as neat as the Alpes. [/VeryMuchNotBiasedBySkiingExperiences-Nope!]


I'm very glad you like my essays. :smallredface:

I have actually been deprived of any Real Mountain Real Life experience. I hope to go skiing on the Alps someday! And I hope to visit mountains all over the world, and climb some. I have no desire to do hard-core 1-in-ten-never-come-back mountain climbing, but I hope to be well enough to manage some little mountains someday!


I guess they actually thought it was a great way of describing it. Many, many people think asexuality doesn't exist, after all. It was a really... jarring depiction, though.

I saw a lot of early seasons of House, but I haven't seen this episode, and I have no desire to, since people find it such a bad portrayal of asexual people. But if someone who has seen it wouldn't mind, could they give a quick description of what you're talking about? Maybe in spoiler, so people can avoid reading about stupid ideas of what asexual means if they want to? I'd like to understand more about asexual things, and I'd like to understand what went wrong here.


I could see the Kyriarch using the royal "we" as if to imply that they speak for everyone. :roach:

I didn't get any implication of 'ditch the T' out of your essay - in fact, *hugs* for mentioning so many groups.
[/COLOR]

Yeah, I bet They would. But we (actually multiple people) can call Them "They" in a dark and contemptuous tone of voice.


Well, because her essay was about how excluding other oppressed groups is silly, and we should all band together because we all face some kind of lack of privilege somehow! Instead of being all "YEAH WELL MY LIFE IS WORSE" we should be more empathetic and stuff.
This is why I let Kender write our thoughts. She's more eloquent.

:smallsmile: Thanks, Nope! To confirm, Arachu, Nope is right. I (hopefully!) didn't ditch trans people from my essay, but the kind of attitude that group has is an example of part of what I was talking about. After all, it's fun to say we fight against an actual Kyriarch, who can be exposed and thrown down, but actually we're fighting against nebulous parts of our own culture, perpetrated by bigots, yes, but sometimes by people who should be our friends and allies, and sometimes who are! Like feminists or LGBs who dismiss trans rights, or activists against racism who use ablist or sexist language, or even people who try to work on behalf of people with mental illnesses but perpetuate negative stereotypes (like a "them" and "us" mentality, or an idea that people with mental illness are broken and dependent on the support of good hardworking "normal" people).


Shouldn't "Human Rights" laws be very general and just say "treat people well"?

In an ideal world, yes. And then they'd just be statements about who we are and the world we live in. But as long as there are people who determinedly take rights away from other people, we need to be explicit about the rights that are due to each and every one of us, so that we don't have the excuse of ignorance or choosing to ignore.


I personally don't understand the need for sex-segregated restrooms. (At my school dorm bathrooms are considered unisex, and the only gendered restrooms on campus are in the Student Union building. I've used the women's restroom there as often as I have the men's.) Is it more of that fear that men will peep on or sexually assault women the moment they take their pants down?

Ugh, don't get me started! Yes, as far as I can tell, it is exactly that the delicate wimmins need to be protected from the lustful beastly mens who won't be able to help themselves but to violate women's privacy and probably bodily integrity if they're, like, taking their pants down near women who are possibly not-quite-"decently clothed".

I cannot say this strongly enough: a triangle with a circle on top and some lines coming out, forming a stereotype of a deviation from the "norm" of male*, DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stop a sexual predator. Because it's not even as strong as a law, and violating someone's body is against actual laws. Rapists who are not scared of laws are certainly not scared of going into the sacred womanly space.

Okay, so, you got me started! :smalltongue: Point is, separate bathrooms are silly. Boys don't actually have cooties. Cubicles are standard. Women are capable of spying on other women. I think we should collectively get over it.


* I'm talking about the "bathroom" symbol for "women's bathroom", the little stick person




Edit: Seems my meds are kicking in. Maybe I won't kill myself after all! :smallbiggrin:

Well... that's disturbingly put, but very good news...! I'm really glad you're feeling better! :smallsmile:

[Mono Vertigo]

Rubs me the wrong way. Several wrong ways at once.
I'm of Jewish descent (though atheist myself), and, huh, saw or heard about Jewish groups being ditched the same way for convenience. Not counting the situation directly reference by Niemöller quoted several posts ago.
Beside Jews are damn annoying with the whole WWII thing, y'know. Haven't we done enough for them? Can't they just shut up and stop looking for reasons to be harassed or offended, right? There are many other groups who have it much worse than they do! They should just forget it and move on and stop acting like they own the place by the way did I tell you how funny it is that the people who actually manage the world ARE Jews can't be a coincidence and bluh bluh BLUH
*washes hands and tongue with soap*
*cough*
Sorry for the digression. I think re-reading the quote put me in a bad mood.
What I mean is that it is quite despicable, but that is nothing new, so I'm not contributing much to the conversation and I should take another dose of painkillers instead of rambling angrily.

[Asta Kask]

Well... that's disturbingly put, but very good news...! I'm really glad you're feeling better! :smallsmile:

The disturbing formulation is a sign that my morbid sense of humor is reasserting itself. :smalltongue:

[Arachu]

Rubs me the wrong way. Several wrong ways at once.
I'm of Jewish descent (though atheist myself), and, huh, saw or heard about Jewish groups being ditched the same way for convenience. Not counting the situation directly reference by Niemöller quoted several posts ago.
Beside Jews are damn annoying with the whole WWII thing, y'know. Haven't we done enough for them? Can't they just shut up and stop looking for reasons to be harassed or offended, right? There are many other groups who have it much worse than they do! They should just forget it and move on and stop acting like they own the place by the way did I tell you how funny it is that the people who actually manage the world ARE Jews can't be a coincidence and bluh bluh BLUH
*washes hands and tongue with soap*
*cough*
Sorry for the digression. I think re-reading the quote put me in a bad mood.
What I mean is that it is quite despicable, but that is nothing new, so I'm not contributing much to the conversation and I should take another dose of painkillers instead of rambling angrily.

*Hugs* You aren't alone in being rubbed the wrong way by bull like that. I'm (probably) not Jewish myself, but there is literally nothing I hate more than bigotry like that. :miko:

[noparlpf]

Frankly, I consider gender-segregation to be detrimental anyway. I've seen some nasty men's restrooms in my time. :smallyuk:

I've seen some pretty nasty women's and unisex bathrooms in my day. The faculty women's bathroom in the science wing back in high school was really nice, though.


Seems that way. Silly, but that's human nature for you.

Edit: Seems my meds are kicking in. Maybe I won't kill myself after all! :smallbiggrin:

Silly humans. I never did understand them.

Welp. That's an oddly worrisome reassurance.
I'm glad you're feeling better. n.n


So much to talk about! Must resist urge to essay it up. Seriously, that Andes essay is NOT writing itself, despite my best efforts to ignore it. :smalltongue:

I'm very glad you like my essays. :smallredface:

I have actually been deprived of any Real Mountain Real Life experience. I hope to go skiing on the Alps someday! And I hope to visit mountains all over the world, and climb some. I have no desire to do hard-core 1-in-ten-never-come-back mountain climbing, but I hope to be well enough to manage some little mountains someday!

A couple of friends keep saying I should try skiing or snowboarding. I mean, I go to school in the Berkshires. There are three different ski places within half an hour of the school.
Hardcore one-in-ten-never-come-back mountain climbing sounds fun, though. I would be that one, but only because I built a cabin halfway up the mountain and spent the rest of my life there living with the bears.


I saw a lot of early seasons of House, but I haven't seen this episode, and I have no desire to, since people find it such a bad portrayal of asexual people. But if someone who has seen it wouldn't mind, could they give a quick description of what you're talking about? Maybe in spoiler, so people can avoid reading about stupid ideas of what asexual means if they want to? I'd like to understand more about asexual things, and I'd like to understand what went wrong here.

Based on this episode, I don't like House, and not even because of their portrayal of asexuality.
Basically House and some other doctor make a bet because House thinks the other dude's patient and her husband, who claim to be asexual, are either lying or have some medical cause for it. The main plot of the episode was about some dude with Alzheimer's, but this little side-plot ended with the dude having prostate cancer and the chick having been lying because she was so in love with this dude that she was cool pretending to be asexual for ten years of marriage and however long of dating before that.
Oh yeah and the way the woman described asexuality at the beginning of the episode felt kind of forced to me. Doc says "hey we should run a pregnancy test" (maybe it was STDs?) and lady says "nah, I'm not pregnant". Doc says "but birth control can fail" and she's like "not mine we don't have sex". I can't remember the exact phrasing of the next couple of lines, but the next few lines were the bit that felt forced to me.


:smallsmile: Thanks, Nope! To confirm, Arachu, Nope is right. I (hopefully!) didn't ditch trans people from my essay, but the kind of attitude that group has is an example of part of what I was talking about. After all, it's fun to say we fight against an actual Kyriarch, who can be exposed and thrown down, but actually we're fighting against nebulous parts of our own culture, perpetrated by bigots, yes, but sometimes by people who should be our friends and allies, and sometimes who are! Like feminists or LGBs who dismiss trans rights, or activists against racism who use ablist or sexist language, or even people who try to work on behalf of people with mental illnesses but perpetuate negative stereotypes (like a "them" and "us" mentality, or an idea that people with mental illness are broken and dependent on the support of good hardworking "normal" people).

You're like the eloquent half of me. I wish I had that ability.


In an ideal world, yes. And then they'd just be statements about who we are and the world we live in. But as long as there are people who determinedly take rights away from other people, we need to be explicit about the rights that are due to each and every one of us, so that we don't have the excuse of ignorance or choosing to ignore.

Oh reality, why do you not work the way I think you should? ('Cause obviously my way is the right way.)
I don't get why people can't just be nice to each other, but I do realise the necessity for explicit laws. And at least that means they might eventually become general moral laws and then we won't need government laws.


Ugh, don't get me started! Yes, as far as I can tell, it is exactly that the delicate wimmins need to be protected from the lustful beastly mens who won't be able to help themselves but to violate women's privacy and probably bodily integrity if they're, like, taking their pants down near women who are possibly not-quite-"decently clothed".

I cannot say this strongly enough: a triangle with a circle on top and some lines coming out, forming a stereotype of a deviation from the "norm" of male*, DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stop a sexual predator. Because it's not even as strong as a law, and violating someone's body is against actual laws. Rapists who are not scared of laws are certainly not scared of going into the sacred womanly space.

Okay, so, you got me started! :smalltongue: Point is, separate bathrooms are silly. Boys don't actually have cooties. Cubicles are standard. Women are capable of spying on other women. I think we should collectively get over it.

* I'm talking about the "bathroom" symbol for "women's bathroom", the little stick person

Not to mention that most rapes take place in the rapist's or victim's home, most rapists are acquaintances or friends anyway, and that lesbians are allowed in women's bathrooms. (And straight transwomen aren't.)
Another factor might be that men tend to use urinals for quick pees, and remember, we can't have those delicate ladyfolks anywhere near an exposed penis.
The whole thing seems kind of silly and based on the collective immaturity of our culture.
I had some other thought but it got mislaid when my glasses lens popped out and I had to stick it back in before I could finish typing 'cause I can't see the screen without it.

Edit: Oh yeah. Kender, you're adorable when you go on feminist rants.

[Glass Mouse]

The only good argument for seperate bathrooms would be from the men's side, and it would be about queue length :smalltongue:


Edit: Seems my meds are kicking in. Maybe I won't kill myself after all! :smallbiggrin:

Yay :3

[Arachu]

I've seen some pretty nasty women's and unisex bathrooms in my day. The faculty women's bathroom in the science wing back in high school was really nice, though.

When I was a kid, I entered a bathroom so rank I ended up having to use the women's one... The smell would've been remotely tolerable, if not for the illustration. :/

Gah, now that I think of it that might've been another factor behind that phobia... :smallyuk:


Not to mention that most rapes take place in the rapist's or victim's home, most rapists are acquaintances or friends anyway, and that lesbians are allowed in women's bathrooms. (And straight transwomen aren't.)
Another factor might be that men tend to use urinals for quick pees, and remember, we can't have those delicate ladyfolks anywhere near an exposed penis.
The whole thing seems kind of silly and based on the collective immaturity of our culture.
I had some other thought but it got mislaid when my glasses lens popped out and I had to stick it back in before I could finish typing 'cause I can't see the screen without it.

I think it's partially just conditioning at this point - there's 'nothing wrong' with gender-segregated bathrooms because they're normal. Nobody really thinks about whether they make any sense, or whether they can qualify as discriminative. :shrug:


The only good argument for seperate bathrooms would be from the men's side, and it would be about queue length :smalltongue:

Oh, and just imagine the chaos that would ensue when the most stubborn people of both genders are racing to the same place. :smalleek: :smalltongue:

It occurs to me that a unisex bathroom would actually cost less than two individual ones (even if it had just as many stalls, sinks and lights, it'd have less walls)... :chin-scratch:

[noparlpf]

When I was a kid, I entered a bathroom so rank I ended up having to use the women's one... The smell would've been remotely tolerable, if not for the illustration. :/

Gah, now that I think of it that might've been another factor behind that phobia... :smallyuk:

Been there. Both men's, women's, and unisex bathrooms like that.


I think it's partially just conditioning at this point - there's 'nothing wrong' with gender-segregated bathrooms because they're normal. Nobody really thinks about whether they make any sense, or whether they can qualify as discriminative. :shrug:

It occurs to me that a unisex bathroom would actually cost less than two individual ones (even if it had just as many stalls, sinks and lights, it'd have less walls)... :chin-scratch:

My issue is partially whether they're discriminative, though I'm not trans and can't fully empathise with that feeling of exclusion, and partially that it seems to be based on some silly and even harmful ideas.
Also that it's cheaper. If they use one men's room and one women's room to avoid the cost of many single-person unisex restrooms, then one large unisex restroom would be cheaper than two gendered restrooms.

[Copper]

Based on this episode, I don't like House, and not even because of their portrayal of asexuality.
Basically House and some other doctor make a bet because House thinks the other dude's patient and her husband, who claim to be asexual, are either lying or have some medical cause for it. The main plot of the episode was about some dude with Alzheimer's, but this little side-plot ended with the dude having prostate cancer and the chick having been lying because she was so in love with this dude that she was cool pretending to be asexual for ten years of marriage and however long of dating before that.
Oh yeah and the way the woman described asexuality at the beginning of the episode felt kind of forced to me. Doc says "hey we should run a pregnancy test" (maybe it was STDs?) and lady says "nah, I'm not pregnant". Doc says "but birth control can fail" and she's like "not mine we don't have sex". I can't remember the exact phrasing of the next couple of lines, but the next few lines were the bit that felt forced to me.
Ugh. Asexuality does not work this way. I hate when the media takes a premise that could be used to teach tolerance and acceptance and just ruins it. Stupid media.

RE: Bathrooms. I was at an LGBTQ dance which had Unisex bathrooms for convience. I remember going out just as a male-bodied person walked in and that making me feel really, really happy. I didn't even think about it before but for some reason the fact that there was no gender segregation at all there just made me so excited. Why can't the rest of the world be like that?

[KenderWizard]

Natalie Reed: Good things about being trans. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/02/28/seven-things-about-being-trans-that-are-actually-kind-of-awesome/)

It's not all doom and gloom. And it's important to say that from time to time.

Having now read this link (which was very interesting, and good to hear about the positive side of things!) I'm going to point out an example from Natalie that continues my theme. I'm going to spoiler because I want to be careful and abortion comes into it. Please, if you disagree with me about abortion, can you just take the broader point of empathy and ignore the specifics. This is most certainly not the thread, nor even the forum, to have that debate.

Natalie says (I'm paraphrasing) that abortion rights are a part of feminism that she could easily ignore, being a trans woman. But she doesn't say "Well, I can't even get pregnant even if I wanted to." or "Why should I care?". She says (paraphrasing!) "I have had people think they should be allowed to control my body, and that's awful. I don't know what it's like to need an abortion, but I do know what it's like to have people try to deny me a choice about my own body, so I can stand with you.". And in return, I'm going to try to remember this, and to think about how I would be forced to travel, maybe alone, dependent on a charity to take care of my medical records, with no follow-up care, and still bleeding on the return flight, if I were to need an abortion, even if the pregnancy wasn't viable or it posed a danger to my life. I'll think about that when I think about trans people who have to put up with similar or worse to get the surgery they might need to live in their own body.


By the way, forgot to hit the multiquote on this one in my last reply!

While I won't talk you into missing deadlines for your day job, I love your feminist "essays" here. They're thought provoking! :smallsmile: :smallcool:


Thank you very much! :smallsmile:


The disturbing formulation is a sign that my morbid sense of humor is reasserting itself. :smalltongue:

Well, that's good! :smallbiggrin:



Based on this episode, I don't like House, and not even because of their portrayal of asexuality.
Basically House and some other doctor make a bet because House thinks the other dude's patient and her husband, who claim to be asexual, are either lying or have some medical cause for it. The main plot of the episode was about some dude with Alzheimer's, but this little side-plot ended with the dude having prostate cancer and the chick having been lying because she was so in love with this dude that she was cool pretending to be asexual for ten years of marriage and however long of dating before that.
Oh yeah and the way the woman described asexuality at the beginning of the episode felt kind of forced to me. Doc says "hey we should run a pregnancy test" (maybe it was STDs?) and lady says "nah, I'm not pregnant". Doc says "but birth control can fail" and she's like "not mine we don't have sex". I can't remember the exact phrasing of the next couple of lines, but the next few lines were the bit that felt forced to me.

:smallsigh: Thanks for sharing it, anyway! I read a similar conversation the other day, actually:
Dr: So, are you sexually active?
Woman: Yes.
Dr: What birth control are you using?
Woman: Oh, none.
Dr: What?
Woman: None, I won't get pregnant.
Dr: Do you have an infertility condition?
Woman: Not that I know of!
Dr: But don't you realise that if you're having sex, and you're fertile, you could get pregnant?
Woman: Only if I'm having sex with a man.



You're like the eloquent half of me. I wish I had that ability.

Eh, I'm very rambly. If you say all possible things, some of them will sound good! :smalltongue:





Not to mention that most rapes take place in the rapist's or victim's home, most rapists are acquaintances or friends anyway, and that lesbians are allowed in women's bathrooms. (And straight transwomen aren't.)
Another factor might be that men tend to use urinals for quick pees, and remember, we can't have those delicate ladyfolks anywhere near an exposed penis.
The whole thing seems kind of silly and based on the collective immaturity of our culture.

I, unsurprisingly, agree.



Edit: Oh yeah. Kender, you're adorable when you go on feminist rants.

:smallredface: That's, uh, not quite what I'm going for, but I'll take a win! :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

Ugh. Asexuality does not work this way. I hate when the media takes a premise that could be used to teach tolerance and acceptance and just ruins it. Stupid media.

RE: Bathrooms. I was at an LGBTQ dance which had Unisex bathrooms for convience. I remember going out just as a male-bodied person walked in and that making me feel really, really happy. I didn't even think about it before but for some reason the fact that there was no gender segregation at all there just made me so excited. Why can't the rest of the world be like that?

Oh yeah, there was that one time early freshman year when I was on the way out of the unisex multiple-person bathroom in the classroom building, and a girl opened the door just as I finished washing my hands. It startled both of us a little; me because holy crap sudden noise and movement just behind me, and her because holy crap there's a boy in the bathroom.

[Arachu]

Been there. Both men's, women's, and unisex bathrooms like that.

Oh. Well, I choose to believe that we were arguing and that I won. :smalltongue:

I should probably keep a wider eye out for childhood memory bias, actually... ^_^'


My issue is partially whether they're discriminative, though I'm not trans and can't fully empathise with that feeling of exclusion, and partially that it seems to be based on some silly and even harmful ideas.
Also that it's cheaper. If they use one men's room and one women's room to avoid the cost of many single-person unisex restrooms, then one large unisex restroom would be cheaper than two gendered restrooms.

I actually can't quite empathize with the exclusion myself (I've never presented as female in public), but the segregation implies quite a bit of sexism. :/


Ugh. Asexuality does not work this way. I hate when the media takes a premise that could be used to teach tolerance and acceptance and just ruins it. Stupid media.

RE: Bathrooms. I was at an LGBTQ dance which had Unisex bathrooms for convience. I remember going out just as a male-bodied person walked in and that making me feel really, really happy. I didn't even think about it before but for some reason the fact that there was no gender segregation at all there just made me so excited. Why can't the rest of the world be like that?

*Hugs* Hopefully, everyone will ask that some day.


Having now read this link (which was very interesting, and good to hear about the positive side of things!) I'm going to point out an example from Natalie that continues my theme. I'm going to spoiler because I want to be careful and abortion comes into it. Please, if you disagree with me about abortion, can you just take the broader point of empathy and ignore the specifics. This is most certainly not the thread, nor even the forum, to have that debate.

Natalie says (I'm paraphrasing) that abortion rights are a part of feminism that she could easily ignore, being a trans woman. But she doesn't say "Well, I can't even get pregnant even if I wanted to." or "Why should I care?". She says (paraphrasing!) "I have had people think they should be allowed to control my body, and that's awful. I don't know what it's like to need an abortion, but I do know what it's like to have people try to deny me a choice about my own body, so I can stand with you.". And in return, I'm going to try to remember this, and to think about how I would be forced to travel, maybe alone, dependent on a charity to take care of my medical records, with no follow-up care, and still bleeding on the return flight, if I were to need an abortion, even if the pregnancy wasn't viable or it posed a danger to my life. I'll think about that when I think about trans people who have to put up with similar or worse to get the surgery they might need to live in their own body.


*Fist-bump* I'll defend you if you defend me. Or even if you don't, actually - the only person that should decide who you are is you.


:smallsigh: Thanks for sharing it, anyway! I read a similar conversation the other day, actually:
Dr: So, are you sexually active?
Woman: Yes.
Dr: What birth control are you using?
Woman: Oh, none.
Dr: What?
Woman: None, I won't get pregnant.
Dr: Do you have an infertility condition?
Woman: Not that I know of!
Dr: But don't you realise that if you're having sex, and you're fertile, you could get pregnant?
Woman: Only if I'm having sex with a man.

I'd find that funnier if not for another episode...
So, House has some patient that happens to be a teenage boy. He puts this guy off for long enough to notice that he isn't sitting down, and he determines that dude has something stuck in a rather unpleasant place.

He walks in, bluntly asks him what it is, and as soon as he determines that it's an MP3 player he asks if it's "the shape, or the throbbing base-line" (assuming, of course, that there's no other way that such a thing could get in such a place and implying that it matters in the first place).

He proceeds to blow the patient off and dump him on another (female) doctor. Subtle, but no less discriminative against homosexuals or teenagers. Or women, or doctors, or patients... :smallannoyed:

[noparlpf]

Having now read this link (which was very interesting, and good to hear about the positive side of things!) I'm going to point out an example from Natalie that continues my theme. I'm going to spoiler because I want to be careful and abortion comes into it. Please, if you disagree with me about abortion, can you just take the broader point of empathy and ignore the specifics. This is most certainly not the thread, nor even the forum, to have that debate.

Natalie says (I'm paraphrasing) that abortion rights are a part of feminism that she could easily ignore, being a trans woman. But she doesn't say "Well, I can't even get pregnant even if I wanted to." or "Why should I care?". She says (paraphrasing!) "I have had people think they should be allowed to control my body, and that's awful. I don't know what it's like to need an abortion, but I do know what it's like to have people try to deny me a choice about my own body, so I can stand with you.". And in return, I'm going to try to remember this, and to think about how I would be forced to travel, maybe alone, dependent on a charity to take care of my medical records, with no follow-up care, and still bleeding on the return flight, if I were to need an abortion, even if the pregnancy wasn't viable or it posed a danger to my life. I'll think about that when I think about trans people who have to put up with similar or worse to get the surgery they might need to live in their own body.


That's my philosophy for a lot of things. Who am I to decide what's right for another person? I know I'm not God, and who else has the right to decide what's right? I may preach my morals, but I won't inflict them on another person. And I'll fight for your right to be wrong.
[insert comic from broken site here]


:smallsigh: Thanks for sharing it, anyway! I read a similar conversation the other day, actually:
Dr: So, are you sexually active?
Woman: Yes.
Dr: What birth control are you using?
Woman: Oh, none.
Dr: What?
Woman: None, I won't get pregnant.
Dr: Do you have an infertility condition?
Woman: Not that I know of!
Dr: But don't you realise that if you're having sex, and you're fertile, you could get pregnant?
Woman: Only if I'm having sex with a man.

Heh, I like it. Well, now-embarrassed doctor, that's what you get for assuming that everyone is straight.


Eh, I'm very rambly. If you say all possible things, some of them will sound good! :smalltongue:

Hmm...maybe that's why my papers score better when I write while on a crazy caffeine high. I ramble a lot more.


:smallredface: That's, uh, not quite what I'm going for, but I'll take a win! :smalltongue:

I'm not sure if my normal use of "adorable" is how the word is supposed to be used, but it's the word that comes to mind.

...
Also rargh this messed-up internet connection is making things lag so much. Even just the text in this box is lagging while the browser tries to connect to another page in another tab. I can't post this until the other page loads so I can find the right comic to link to!
...
Or maybe at this point it's that that site is down. Huh. Well, this lagging on my end is still bloody annoying. It's 2012, gosh darn it! I should have lag-free internet!)
...
I've even gone through the page's source code in hopes of finding the image source. But it's hosted by the site, like I thought. Oh well. I'm going to go get a burger. 'Cause I can chew again! (Sort of.) If the site comes up later I'll post the comic I was thinking of if it does actually apply like I think it does.

Edit: Oh but before the burger--Kender, what's the distinction between a hill and a mountain?

[Astrella]

Yay for Asta coming back! *hugs*

In other news... I just watched the House episode where they had these... "asexuals". I am sad. That was a horrible depiction of asexuality.

House tends to be pretty iffy. :<


*snip*

Some tangents: I think a big problem with society / subgroups is as well that they tend to present only one narrative as valid. The whole study - get a job - marry & and settle down is pretty prevalent, but it shows up in a lot of places. I can think of gatekeeping in relation to trans* people and medical care. (The whole, having to be straight, presenting very feminine etc. to be able to transition.) Other things I can think of is femme erasure in lesbian circles, gold star lesbians (aka lesbians who haven't been in contact with the vile male member), feminism being a mainly cis, white, upperclass women thing (more in the early days then now) leading to womanist segregation and such. Which is a shame, because more narratives just give you more angles to look at issues. (Which is also why it annoys me so much when people's stories / experiences aren't seen as valid; the whole "queerer / more trans than thou" thing; it's basically people telling other people that their theories are more important than people's experiences.)


With the risk of exposing my moral myopia, I was reading a Men's Rights blog (in Swedish) not long ago, regarding the rights of fathers. (Linked from another Men's Rights blog I find myself in at least partial agreement with, though it seem to attract stupid readers/posters.) It seemed to make perfect sense to me at the beginning, but as soon as the blog's introduction started to rant about single mothers and "the gay agenda" and how they work to destroy families (with both fathers and mothers), I closed the browser tab. :smallsigh:

That's the really unfortunate part about most MRA's; there are specific issues regarding men that need to be adressed but a lot of them get very knee-jerky and are dealing with a whole load of other -isms themselves.


Ugh, don't get me started! Yes, as far as I can tell, it is exactly that the delicate wimmins need to be protected from the lustful beastly mens who won't be able to help themselves but to violate women's privacy and probably bodily integrity if they're, like, taking their pants down near women who are possibly not-quite-"decently clothed".

I cannot say this strongly enough: a triangle with a circle on top and some lines coming out, forming a stereotype of a deviation from the "norm" of male*, DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stop a sexual predator. Because it's not even as strong as a law, and violating someone's body is against actual laws. Rapists who are not scared of laws are certainly not scared of going into the sacred womanly space.

Okay, so, you got me started! :smalltongue: Point is, separate bathrooms are silly. Boys don't actually have cooties. Cubicles are standard. Women are capable of spying on other women. I think we should collectively get over it.


* I'm talking about the "bathroom" symbol for "women's bathroom", the little stick person:

Exactly, that's why the whole argument annoys me so much when it's brought up in "bathroom bills"; if someone is out to cause harm, they won't let a symbol stop them. And off course the hurtful side-effect of painting trans* people as sexual predators. :s

Dysphoria:
Having a really bad bout of it again, skipped out on class today cause I felt really bad; been really nervous and panicky. I even cut myself in my arm earlier. Nothing severe, but still, it scares me. D: I'm feeling pretty okay right now though.

So, since I'm still too nervous to go to stores alone, I was poking online to order clothes; was thinking of getting a skirt and leggings / kneesocks and a matching top, but I don't know much about fashion. :< Any thoughts?

[noparlpf]

Dysphoria:
Having a really bad bout of it again, skipped out on class today cause I felt really bad; been really nervous and panicky. I even cut myself in my arm earlier. Nothing severe, but still, it scares me. D: I'm feeling pretty okay right now though.

So, since I'm still too nervous to go to stores alone, I was poking online to order clothes; was thinking of getting a skirt and leggings / kneesocks and a matching top, but I don't know much about fashion. :< Any thoughts?

Ooh. Feel better! *hugs*

And get kneesocks! I like kneesocks with skirts much better than skirts and bare legs or skirts and leggings/tights.

[Arachu]

Dysphoria:
Having a really bad bout of it again, skipped out on class today cause I felt really bad; been really nervous and panicky. I even cut myself in my arm earlier. Nothing severe, but still, it scares me. D: I'm feeling pretty okay right now though.

*Hugs!* :<I've been meaning to say... I think you're beautiful. Gah, I'm still afraid to say that sort of thing after last year... :mitd:


So, since I'm still too nervous to go to stores alone, I was poking online to order clothes; was thinking of getting a skirt and leggings / kneesocks and a matching top, but I don't know much about fashion. :< Any thoughts?

Gah, I knew I'd regret not looking into fashion earlier. :O

I've always thought that kneesocks looked better than stockings for some reason. Arm-warmers are neat, too. :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

On bathrooms: my residential college at uni had all unisex bathrooms, including showers (and a bath). I don't recall anyone having any problems with it at all - least of all sexual assault. If anything, I think girls tended to use it as an opportunity to tease the boys by going from the bathroom to the bedroom in ought but a towel.

[golentan]

Random question: Do you guys think that anime (in america) has a higher proportion of LGBT fans than general media?

[noparlpf]

Random question: Do you guys think that anime (in america) has a higher proportion of LGBT fans than general media?

I read a lot of manga, but haven't watched all that many anime. Among anime/manga fans and other weeaboos back in high school and here, I'd say no, not really.

[supernerd]

Random question: Do you guys think that anime (in america) has a higher proportion of LGBT fans than general media?

It's just that they usually don't make that big a deal about it, "oh, him? Yeah he's physically a girl, but whatev's." "Oh her, yeah she's a lesbian, but she is really cool."

Yeah, and there are usually so many other things more plot essential than what letter they are.

[supernerd]

Random question: Do you guys think that anime (in america) has a higher proportion of LGBT fans than general media?

It's just that they usually don't make that big a deal about it, "oh, him? Yeah he's physically a girl, but whatev's." "Oh her, yeah she's a lesbian, but she is really cool."

Yeah, and there are usually so many other things more plot essential than what letter they are.

[Asta Kask]

KenderWizard: It's a matter of empathy. I know that when I say I'm interested in trans rights (almost wrote trans tights...) a certain amount of people will draw the conclusion that I'm secretly transsexual. That's the attitude we need to change; the casual assumption that one needs something other than common decency to worry about people being killed and persecuted.

[turkishproverb]

Random question: Do you guys think that anime (in america) has a higher proportion of LGBT fans than general media?

Yes. I was working on a paper a while back on why there are more LGBT than the standard population in many niche interstate groups like scifi, anime, fantasy, roleplaying, etc. The central theory I have is that when only a few other people like the same thing, other differences start to seem less important, combined with the general nature of these groups themselves being marginalized in their own small way.

[Triscuitable]

I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. :smallredface: I've found I really like someone.

But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?


I personally don't understand the need for sex-segregated restrooms.

I've read about schools that had unisex bathrooms. The idea was abandoned when sexual harassment, and even rape complaints came through. :smallfrown: It's a shame that we've come so far as to not even respect the sanctity of the bathroom.

[Arachu]

I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. :smallredface: I've found I really like someone.

But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?

*Exaggerated slap on the back* :smallbiggrin:

I'm sure that gender will come to you eventually, in whatever form(s) it will. :smallsmile:


I've read about schools that had unisex bathrooms. The idea was abandoned when sexual harassment, and even rape complaints came through. :smallfrown: It's a shame that we've come so far as to not even respect the sanctity of the bathroom.

:smallsigh: I was afraid of that. :smallyuk:

Any further comment on my part wouldn't be quite articulate today. (On that note, has anyone else ever felt... Depressed and not depressed at the same time? I dunno, I've just been unusually grouchy and it's bothering me. :/)

[Arachu]

(For some reason, my last post seems to be showing in the "quotes" log but not on the page...)


I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. :smallredface: I've found I really like someone.

But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?

*Exaggerated slap on the back* :smallbiggrin:

I'm sure that gender will come to you eventually, in whatever form(s) it will. :smallsmile:


I've read about schools that had unisex bathrooms. The idea was abandoned when sexual harassment, and even rape complaints came through. :smallfrown: It's a shame that we've come so far as to not even respect the sanctity of the bathroom.

:smallsigh: I was afraid of that. :smallyuk:

Any further comment on my part wouldn't be quite articulate today. (On that note, has anyone else ever felt... Depressed and not depressed at the same time? I dunno, I've just been unusually grouchy and it's bothering me. :/)

[Kneenibble]

Ugh, don't get me started! Yes, as far as I can tell, it is exactly that the delicate wimmins need to be protected from the lustful beastly mens who won't be able to help themselves but to violate women's privacy and probably bodily integrity if they're, like, taking their pants down near women who are possibly not-quite-"decently clothed".

I cannot say this strongly enough: a triangle with a circle on top and some lines coming out, forming a stereotype of a deviation from the "norm" of male*, DOES NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT stop a sexual predator. Because it's not even as strong as a law, and violating someone's body is against actual laws. Rapists who are not scared of laws are certainly not scared of going into the sacred womanly space.

Okay, so, you got me started! :smalltongue: Point is, separate bathrooms are silly. Boys don't actually have cooties. Cubicles are standard. Women are capable of spying on other women. I think we should collectively get over it.

No, Kender. You get carried away when you essay-rant. It has nothing to do with something as ridiculous as perceived danger of rape. That's dumb.

Gender-segregated bathrooms are a comfortable & safe space for most people. I don't mean safe, like safe from physical harm: I mean in the sense of mental safety. I don't feel comfortable doing bathroom activities around women. Everybody I am ticking off in my head right now that I know in real life would feel as uncomfortable as me if the opposite gender could come in to their public bathroom safe space.

It's a serious, deeply ingrained, and quite frankly, natural gender sex affinity. You can't just write it off like that.

My place of work -- which happens to be a very progressive University -- has gender-segregated bathrooms, plus single-stall unisex bathrooms for the very small minority who are uncomfortable with the former. I think that's a great solution.

[Asta Kask]

But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?

Is it important?

[golentan]

I've returned from my time off to put two-and-two together. (FOUR!)

It took from last week to today for me to realize I'm in love. Yeah, that's what was eating at me. :smallredface: I've found I really like someone.

But there's another thing: I'm still completely in the dark about my own gender. I have no issues deeming myself male or female, but it's something that's constantly tugging me back and forth, back and forth. It's hard to go from bouncing my hips while I walk (which I still do, it's fun!), to acting like a supreme gentleman. It's a funny world, isn't it?


LOVE! Triscuitable and... someone, sitting in a tree. Hold onto that feeling, so that one day when it is inevitably ripped bodily from you it will leave you feeling as though an unlicensed dentist has just performed surgery on your gut.

More seriously, good luck.

[Kneenibble]

Aaand to disrupt the srs tone of my last post... I had to share this slice of absurdity from an online dating profile I just read. Listed as male but with a very female appearance in the photos.


I am not a tranny so dont think otherwise... I am a bottom... ;P

I have to laugh. ...so I don't cry.

[golentan]

I am in love with George Takei.

He posted a great LGBT blurb related to dieting today on his facebook. You should read it.

[Nix Nihila]

No, Kender. You get carried away when you essay-rant. It has nothing to do with something as ridiculous as perceived danger of rape. That's dumb.

Yes, it is dumb. But it is one of the most common arguments I see against unisex bathrooms (and also against allowing trans people into their preferred bathrooms), so I don't think it's unfair to bring up.



Gender-segregated bathrooms are a comfortable & safe space for most people. I don't mean safe, like safe from physical harm: I mean in the sense of mental safety. I don't feel comfortable doing bathroom activities around women. Everybody I am ticking off in my head right now that I know in real life would feel as uncomfortable as me if the opposite gender could come in to their public bathroom safe space.

It's a serious, deeply ingrained, and quite frankly, natural gender sex affinity. You can't just write it off like that.

I respect that you would be uncomfortable, and I certainly don't want to force people who are uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms to have to do their business in them, but I'm rather skeptical of your claim that it is a natural affinity. Do you have any studies to back that up? Have studies even been conducted on that sort of thing?

[Asta Kask]

I go in, do my business, wash my hands and leave. There could be an elephant in a pink tutu in the corner and I wouldn't care.

That's probably not literally true, but it sounds good.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I don't think I'd be any more uncomfortable with having a different gendered person in the same bathroom with me as I would with a same gendered person. That is to say, both of those things make me moderately uncomfortable. =P

Something to do with not wanting people to catch me in a vulnerable position, I suppose.