Gestalting and Monster Classes

[Magnor Criol]

I tried to search for this, I really did. Unfortunately the search tool seemed to be nonfunctional for me, so all I had was some manual browsing, which misses a lot. If this already exists somewhere recent, apologies.

So for the first time in four or five years I'm going to get to play me some DnD. The parameters for character building include 12th level gestalt characters, races with LA allowed (she might even waive some of the LA).

Last time I played, I had a blast playing one of the monster classes from the Savage Species book. I was considering using one of these again, probably with something simple like a monster for one half of the gestalt and a normal class for the other, when I ran across an interesting conundrum - most of the monster classes don't advance hit die each level. HD-dependent stats like BAB, saves, skill points, and feats/abil increases based on HD are thus gained at a different rate. This makes sense balance-wise, but how do I reconcile this with a normal class in a gestalt situation? Can it be done?

For instance, the djinni monster class has 1HD at levels 1-2, 2 HD at levels 3-4, and so on up to 7HD at level 13. How could I gestalt this with, say, a rogue or a fighter on the other side?

If it's relevant, the DM (who I know but haven't played with before) seems to enjoy a more "fun is greater than strict rules" approach. I don't know anything about the other potential players, I just know she's pulling a group together.

[Igneel]

Alright, let's see if I can try to explain this without losing the point of it.

Lets take your Djinni example with a any old class on the other side. Most Dms to my knowledge rule that when playing creatures with LA you put it on one side of the gestalt. As for the Savage Species monster classes, where ever you don't gain a new HD that is a LA you gained instead. So for the Djinni by lvl 6 (for example) you have 3 HD and 3 LA. After you finish the monster class can start taking levels in a second class along with whatever you have on Side A.

Lvl| Side A | Side B
==========
Lvl 1: Rogue 1//Djinni 1 HD
Lvl 2: Rogue 2//Djinni 1 HD/1 LA
Lvl 3: Rogue 3//Djinni 2 HD/1 LA
Lvl 4: Rogue 4//Djinni 2 HD/2 LA
Lvl 5: Rogue 5//Djinni 3 HD/2 LA
Lvl 6: Rogue 6//Djinni 3 HD/3 LA
....
Lvl 13: Rogue 13//Djinni 7 HD/6 LA
Lvl 14: Rogue 14//Djinni 7 HD/6 LA/X 1

Hope this helped ya some.

[kardar233]

Basically, just treat the levels where you don't get Hit Dice as Level Adjustment (which they pretty much are) and you should be fine.

[Magnor Criol]

Well, I get it conceptually. The problem I'm having is on the mechanical side.

I know that each level, you look at you look at all the various characteristics of both halves and take the best of each.

So, to continue with the same example:
Rogue level 1 has d6 HD, +0 BAB, +0/+2/+0 saves, and (8+Int)x4 skill points.
Djinn level 1 has d8 HD, +1 BAB, +2/+2/+2 saves, and (8+Int)x4 skill points. (Hooray Outsider HD.)

So my first level would look like L1 Rogue/L1 Djinn - d8 HD, +1 BAB, +2/+2/+2 saves. Simple enough.

But what do I do at level 2? The breakdown now looks like this:
Rogue level 2 has d6 HD, +1 BAB, and +0/+3/+0 saves.
Djinn level 2 has no advancement of HD, thus no advancement of BAB or saves.

I can basically assume that I'd treat the BAB and the saves the same (look at what a L2 Rogue and a L2 Djinn are supposed to have, choose the best, so +1 BAB and +2/+3/+2 saves) but what about the HD? Do I take the Rogue's d6, advancing HD even though the Djinn class is specifically not supposed to? (Realizing that this 'supposed to' concept is born of the idea that monster class HD don't advance out of balance, and gestalting sort of throws balance to the dogs, this sort of makes sense, but still.)

If that's the case, then, I'd assume at level 3 I'd take another d8 HD (since the Djinn class gains a HD at that point) and so on from that point, basically alternating d6 and d8 HD. I'd end up with 6d8+6d6 HD.

Is that correct? It feels weird because having 12HD at level 12, with all the other bonuses accrued from the monster class, seems quite powerful - though I guess the fact that half of that is Rogue HD and not Outsider HD mitigates it.

[Igneel]

LA is weird like that, it 'placeholds' where a level would be, but doesn't contribute at all. So your assumption is correct in that any level that you would get a LA, the Rogue (or whatever class) gives you all the benefits.

So by the 13th level, you'll have 7 Djinni (d8) HD and 6 Rogue (d6) HD, with skill points, BaB, etc keyed from each. That's the beauty of Gestalting that didn't take into consideration that something like Monster Classes would come into existence.

At least it isn't the newest thing to hit the Play by Post section on these forums called Tristalt (3 classes per level)... Thats a doozy just trying to organize your class abilities.

[Magnor Criol]

Awesome. And now that I've slept it also makes perfect sense; I think last night I was simply out-thinking myself.

Thanks Igneel and kardar, you guys have been quite helpful.

Now I just have the easy task of deciding what I want to play out of the narrow window of possibilities provided by "12th level gestalt character" parameters. </sarcasm>

[Igneel]

Your very welcome. Glad I could be of some help.