Works just fine until you stop to think about it...

[Drakevarg]

Been running my campaign for the last few weeks without incident, hence my lack of horror stories. :smalltongue: Anyway, while I was working on some of my NPC sheets, I noticed a bit of Fridge Logic concerning my setting:

My campaign world is somewhat both high-and-low powered. The average non-peasant is between levels 3-5, with the more elite forces hitting 7-9, with the very rare 11th level character. However, after that threshold the number of people in each power bracket drops sharply. While I was handing out loot to some of my generic mooks, this problem occurs to me:

Without Level 12+ characters, Rings, Staves and enhancement bonuses above +3 are essentially nonexistent.

There are a number of other issues to be hand when you start making the mistake of wondering where all this loot comes from. For example, where do primitive races like Bugbears, which live in tiny tribes of like 50 at the most, get the magical arms and armor that their WBL would demand (class levels again being commonplace in my setting)?

Just thought I'd pop over here and mumble out loud about the limitations my PCs are likely to encounter when they've managed to get their hands on enough gold to buy a vorpal longsword, only to learn that there's maybe six mages in the world that know how to enchant one. :smallamused:

[Tenno Seremel]

Ruins of ancient civilizations or contracts with outsiders for example…

EDIT: or, you can say that some items are more powerful in the hand of more powerful creatures (higher level).

[Frozen_Feet]

Without Level 12+ characters, Rings, Staves and enhancement bonuses above +3 are essentially nonexistent.


The logical response is to have them be non-existent, and if your players want them, well, they have to make them themselves. :smalltongue:

[Waddacku]

Isn't WBL only for PCs?

Especially since otherwise if you stole the stuff of a guy who's the same level as you, you'd double your wealth...

[Mystify]

Also note that the enchantment bonus limit and the limits on special abilities are separate; A 12th level caster can only manage a +3 sword and not a +4 sword, but could manage a +3 flaming sword, for instance. Higher level items are generally good items to be ancient artifacts, made by high level characters eons ago, and being high level magical items, have stuck around for this long.
Bugbear tribes can have wizards too, they will just tend to be poorer due to the lower racial int.

Isn't WBL only for PCs?

Especially since otherwise if you stole the stuff of a guy who's the same level as you, you'd double your wealth...

NPCs have WBL as well, its just much lower than for PCs

[Waddacku]

Oh, the treasure tables. Makes sense. Of course, if you wanted to use it as a sort of WBL rather than "this is what you get for looting their corpses", they could spend it on other goods, like livestock, jewelry, cheese...

But the DMG table is for the total value of their gear, so yeah. MIC has treasure per level of encounter, which is kind of abstract...

[Mystify]

Oh, the treasure tables. Makes sense. Of course, if you wanted to use it as a sort of WBL rather than "this is what you get for looting their corpses", they could spend it on other goods, like livestock, jewelry, cheese...

But the DMG table is for the total value of their gear, so yeah. MIC has treasure per level of encounter, which is kind of abstract...
Not even the treasure tables; NPCs have a WBL, which is part of their challenge. The relative lack of wealth is part of why NPCs are not that strong.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't you run low-wealth/low-magic games anyways?

[Drakevarg]

Don't you run low-wealth/low-magic games anyways?

Used to. Got bored of it.

[CTrees]

Is there any access to other planes? A +5 Vorpal sword may have been created a few hundred years ago by some devil sitting in the lower planes, and just made it into your plane recently (by trade and murder). That ultimate armor could have been made by angels, giften to a church on your plane, been stolen, restolen, sold, and finally transferred into sight of the PCs. And so on. If you have access to other planes, well, there's no reason higher end items could drift into the campaign, even if you don't really have anyone who could make them.

Alternatively, dragons. Have you seen the caster levels on the oldest dragons? Boom, instant source of crafting ("a thousand years ago that dragon retrained his casting feats, because he got bored").

EDIT: Oh, and if it's really a problem, and none of the proposed solutions in this thread? Allow crafters using aid another to add to the caster level as well as the skill check. Worst case, make it a feat, but saying, oh... "designate the primary crafter. Each additional assistant adds +1 to the primary crafter's caster level for purposes of creating this item" will solve your problem. It's a little bit of homebrew/houseruling, but it'll solve the scarcity problem. If you're worried about the Leadership-sweatshop problem, and potential for crazy crafting, make this require both the feat for cooperative crafting AND everyone participating in the crafting to have the requisite crafting feat (You're making a +5 sword, and have a wizard and ten assistants? Everyone involved needs both Cooperative Crafting AND Craft Magical Arms and Armor). Boom, suddenly it's not feasible to have followers do, but IS feasible to have crafting house do.

[chadmeister]

Well you can just drop the Forge Ring feat and lump rings in with Wondrous Items (that's all they are).

Staves and other more powerful items? You can say that there was once a bunch of powerful wizards who are now gone for whatever reason. Or the gods spread around some magic items at some point.

Or just tell the players, if you want this stuff, you have to make it yourself.

The bugbears could have stolen all their loot, or happened upon caches of items left by the ancient wizards/gods.

[Kol Korran]

i usually play in Eberron and have a similar problem. high level magic crafters are rare and in between. my solutions come from several places (some have been mentioned here):
- the party DOES need to find those rare high powered enough magic item crafters. opens up interesting possibilities. (quests, allies, bargains and what not).

- the PCs start crafting themselves.

- there are some craftsmen or professionals whose job is to make magic items, for which certain allowances are given (enter the artificer class, and the dragonamarked houses)

- ancient civilizations (hello Xen'dric and Dhakkan!) or items crafted by monsters and the like (dragons, outsiders, some aberrations, the undead)

- the low level backward monsters or humanoids such as your bugbears can acquire nice shiny stuff by one of 3 methods i think: either hire themselves to someone to equip them, or a few may learn to make them, or they can do what adventurers do- kill people and take their stuff.

hope that makes sense. i haven't had much trouble, but to be honest- i've never played to very high levels.

[Drakevarg]

Alternatively, dragons. Have you seen the caster levels on the oldest dragons? Boom, instant source of crafting ("a thousand years ago that dragon retrained his casting feats, because he got bored").

Also tricky, as dragons also take class levels in this setting, based on their age category (Level 1 at Young, gaining 2 levels with each age category thereafter), and most dragons of Old age or older get bored of the Material Plane and leave for other realms. (Though that does put the oldest ones still hanging around at a cozy CR 27).

[Tyndmyr]

Been running my campaign for the last few weeks without incident, hence my lack of horror stories. :smalltongue: Anyway, while I was working on some of my NPC sheets, I noticed a bit of Fridge Logic concerning my setting:

My campaign world is somewhat both high-and-low powered. The average non-peasant is between levels 3-5, with the more elite forces hitting 7-9, with the very rare 11th level character. However, after that threshold the number of people in each power bracket drops sharply. While I was handing out loot to some of my generic mooks, this problem occurs to me:

Without Level 12+ characters, Rings, Staves and enhancement bonuses above +3 are essentially nonexistent.

There are a number of other issues to be hand when you start making the mistake of wondering where all this loot comes from. For example, where do primitive races like Bugbears, which live in tiny tribes of like 50 at the most, get the magical arms and armor that their WBL would demand (class levels again being commonplace in my setting)?

Just thought I'd pop over here and mumble out loud about the limitations my PCs are likely to encounter when they've managed to get their hands on enough gold to buy a vorpal longsword, only to learn that there's maybe six mages in the world that know how to enchant one. :smallamused:

Well, they're rare, yeah. But magical items would not be destroyed lightly, and people would keep such things around if they could. So, there's likely to be some in the hands of non crafters.

Also, while things like knowing every crafter of a given level is kind of awesome, be aware that in doing so, you're limiting your plots as well.

[Slipperychicken]

For example, where do primitive races like Bugbears, which live in tiny tribes of like 50 at the most, get the magical arms and armor that th/eir WBL would demand (class levels again being commonplace in my setting):

Some quirky heroes delved deep into a cave system, killed some ancient and powerful beings, took their stuff, and sold it to the Bugbear town on the way to Plot City.